The Big Difference Between the 2000 Selection and the 2004 Robbery

[TruthIsAll]

The Big Difference Between the 2000 Selection and 2004

At the time of the 2000 recount, no one was talking about fraud. Just overvotes and undervotes. And the overvotes (the Butterfly ballot and the double and triple-punched cards) were never an issue in the recount. We were told it was machine malfunction or dumb democrats who didn’t know how to vote. And of course there was the Dade county riot.

I believed it was fraud then, only because Bush and Baker furiously fought the recounts which Gore had sought. But the F-word was never mentioned. It was never an issue.

It was only later that Greg Palast told us about the thousands of disenfranchised blacks in Florida. And we never knew until much later that 80,000 of the 110,000 punched card overvotes (mostly in minority precincts) included a punch for Gore. No one even suspected that this could have been due to the deliberate spoiling of Gore votes.

So Bush was selected, thanks to the Supreme Court. We all knew he was illegitimate, but never suspected fraud – just nasty aggressiveness on the part of the Republicans to get back the White House. Even Kerry said we should “get over it” afterwards. I won’t ever forget that. I posted an open letter to Kerry on DU telling him to go to hell.

Flash forward to 2004. We all know that Bush stole it in 2000; we knew the Repubs stole the Senate in 2002. We warned the Democrats about the lack of a voter trail. We knew what was coming. And it came. The exit polls were the first major clue. Impossible odds on the part of Bush to have 41 of the 51 state deviations move his way – and 16 of them beyond the margin of error. The probability is ONE in 13.5 TRILLION.

But even more than that, we knew about Jeb Bush and we knew about the thousands of incidents (intimidation, registration fraud, touchscreens registering Kerry votes for Bush and another round of spoiled punch card ballots, in Ohio this time.

Once again, enter Greg Palast. This time Greg wrote right BEFORE the election that Kerry was already over one million votes behind – especially in Ohio and New Mexico, where the ballots were spoiled and deja vu, the blacks and Hispanics were disenfranchised before the election and could be found in "back of the bus".

So the big difference between now and 2000 is that just six weeks after the election, DUers and the Democratic Party (if there still is one) are well aware that Bush has engineered the biggest fraud in history – through a combination of low-tech and high-tech robbery.

The only question is: will they let him get away with it this time?
Or will Kerry just tell us once again to “just get over it”?

[EFerrari]

1. You are simply awesome,, truthisall. And no, no matter what

anyone says, I get the feeling we know this is so much more about our vote than about any candidate.

Thank you so much for your work. B.

[righteous1]

2. Brother is your memory short

Don't you remember the roadblocks keeping people from the polls, the infamous "butterfly ballots, police intimidation, flyers informing people they were to vote at different polling places, phone calls night before election telling people they were not registered etc etc

[EFerrari]

5. Don't know how to say this, but you are 150% right

On 11/2, the horrible tactics that have been used against Black voters where used against white people, in particular, college students.

I tried to say that and all my people were too korrect to pass it on. Racism, what racism?

And to my shame, I'm nearly old as dirt and had never really gotten it.

Well, we're all about to "get it". About damn time.

[Junkdrawer]

7. TIA's right. Fraud was never mentioned...

Or if it was, it was never the center piece of discussion as it is now.

[Junkdrawer]

9. Here's the scary part...

We clearly have a Pseudo-Democracy. As we are seeing with the Ohio "recount", it's not a question of trying to find the Truth, it's simply a question of how much fraud and intimidation is used to cover-up the fraud and intimidation.

The Law, as such, has nothing to do with it.

And the more they defraud to cover up the crime, the more transparent the Pseudo-Democracy becomes.

And THAT leads to this question: When it becomes abundantly clear now, or four or eight years from now that "Democracy" is a cruel joke on the level of Professional Wrestling, what then? Open dictatorship?
Because, as far as I remember, there has never been a case where a despot gives up power peacefully.

[understandinglife]

28. 4 or 8 years? NOT: We make this stick, NOW. Focus on 6 Jan 2005...

....and do not allow anyone, anywhere to come to the end of that day unaware of the massive attack on our franchise of democracy; on our Constitution. And, it is fo us to make sure no one escapes knowing and no one escapes the responsibility for halting the fraudulent election process of 2004; fixing the process and re-voting.

We must not allow 6 Jan 2005 to be anything other than 'we the people of the United States of American, in order to form a more perfect union.....HALTED the attack and forced everyone to realize WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT AND WE ARE IN CHARGE.

Peace.

"I'm an American patriot, not a pro-fraud theocrat"

[TruthIsAll]

8. WTF are you talking about? Of course, I remember.

But F-R-A-U-D was never an issue. Only the thuggery on the part of Baker, the Repukes rioting in Dade and the Supreme Court voting 5-4.

Of course we knew it was a fix. But it was nothing like what we have seen (and ANTICIPATED) in open view this time.

BBV was NOT an issue in 2000. We were led to BELIEVE the punched card overvotes and undervotes were just mechanical failures.

Read my post closely. I suggest you go back and check the facts of Selection 2000.

[smartvoter]

26. Agreed. nt

[Amaryllis]

44. Report from Ukranian who was there. They are showing us how.

http://tinyurl.com/6oga6

Ukranians Show Americans How to Reject Election Fraud
Report from young Ukranian who was there.

By Michael Bleyzer (from Kyiv, Ukraine)
http://educate-yourself.org/cn/ukraineorangerevolution01dec04.shtml
December 1, 2004

(Copy of the letter of a young Ukrainian. A nice, timely report from someone on the spot....)

As you likely know from the news, we are in the middle of the Orange Revolution here in Kyiv. I can tell you that this is one of the most incredible experiences of my entire life to be here during this time. We have been spending a lot of time on the streets and on the main square - Maidan Nezalezhnosti (Independence Square).

It is difficult to describe what is going on here. No news footage on your TV screens can express the feeling you get being surrounded by a million people. The most amazing thing -- which I believe will have worldwide sociological implications for a long time to come -- is how incredible this crowd is. When you think of a crowd unhappy about something, being cheated by politicians, betrayed by the system - you expect a bunch of angry, agitated people. Well, think again. This is the happiest, friendliest, most incredibly loving and supportive group of people I have ever encountered.

People are smiling, singing, laughing and offering help and support to each other. You don't see any police anywhere, not a single policeman in sight - imagine that. According to the mayor's office in the city of Kyiv - there are no reports of any crime in this huge metropolitan area. Crime has stopped! Everyone is a friend, everyone is a neighbor, everyone is a brother. I do not know how long t his can last, but we are in the middle of some kind of miracle.

It is cold out there. Most nights the temperature gets well below zero Centigrade (which is in the teens for those of you that only know Fahrenheit). But the tent city that was built in the middle of Kyiv and now has hundreds if not thousands of tents is very warm indeed. There are mountains of warm clothes everywhere on Khreshchatyk (the main street of the city), which were donated by Kyivites. Food, hot coffee, hot tea are abundant and free everywhere. But you do not see any alcohol - this is the most sober one million Ukrainians you will ever meet. The crowd is completely self-organizing and improving its collective behavior continuously. Every new day brings new elements of better organization, improved conditions, improved communications and general functionality...

It has become clear to any observer that this crowd is bound to win. There is absolutely no way to stop this crowd without a massive blood bath, which is almost impossible to imagine to take place in the center of Europe, with all the world's TV cameras . Over the last 5 days, the opposition has been winning continuous victories every single day.

The score for the first five rounds is clearly 5-0. The crowds are growing and demonstrations are now taking place all over the country. More and more famous athletes, actors, artists, high-ranking military and police officers are joining the opposition. When Ruslana, the most famous Ukrainian singer, and heavyweight champion Vladimir Klitchko joined Victor Yushchenko on the podium, the crowd went wild. The following day brought Leh Valensa, senior officers of SBU (former KGB) and Police, several formerly neutral "oligarchs" and finally a major breakthrough at the end of the day - the rebirth of free media in Ukraine.

Prior to that, only Channel 5 was broadcasting 24 hours a day directly from Maidan and giving complete coverage to all the events. And of course, our Volia Cable was proudly delivering its signal to some 1.5 million viewers in Kyiv despite all the pressure on them, including several horrible days in
July when some of our key managers had to spend 10 days in jail. One other channel (Era) was doing the same, but only a few hours a day.

All major channels had previously been completely ignoring the millions of people on the streets, never reporting it and instead showing cartoons, classical music concerts and exotic travel destinations.

We knew that most journalists from the major channels had either been fired by then or had gone on strike because they refused to continue broadcasting lies. As a result, all news programs on National channels 1 and 2, Inter, 1+1, Noviy, and others simply ceased any and all operations. For 3 days in a row, most of Ukraine, which only has access to the major channels, had no TV news.

Imagine that - the very day after a major election - no news for three days, no morning news, no evening news, no news at all! All these channels simply had no creative staff left to produce bogus news. All fired or on strike.

Thursday night it all changed. The management and owners of all of the major channels gave in to the demands of their striking journalists and allowed honest news reporting for the first time in the history of independent Ukraine. Some of the channels like National Channel 1 and 1+1 began their evening news broadcast on Thursday with a group shot of all journalists standing together and one of them reading a statement from the creative staff in which they swore to report honest news and honest news only!

This was one of the most unbelievable sights I have ever seen. And then the miracle happened - they showed a direct feed of a million proud Ukrainians on Maidan in Kyiv to the whole country. If there are defining moments in the birth of a Nation, that was certainly one! I am so proud to be able to witness it with my own eyes, in spite of all the tears that covered them at that moment.

Today was another exciting day with the extraordinary session of the Ukrainian Rada currently ongoing. It started over four hours ago and is being shown live on a number of TV channels all over the country and also to people on the streets. We are all glued to the television screens. The Rada already voted to consider the runoff elections invalid, express non-confidence in the Central Election Committee and several other major items. They are still debating, but are making good progress. Things are looking up! The Orange Revolution continues!


Michael Bleyzer
Kyiv, Ukraine
November 27, 2004

Forward courtesy of Sepp Hasslberger & Wolf Wilbert

[rumpel]

3. Great title. I agree.

[texpatriot2004]

4. Yeah, this time at least some of us are AWAKE & AWARE

We expected it.

[liberalla]

6. I won't get over it!

Great Post!!! Thank you! I know I won't get over it.

We can't just get over it.
We have to go through it.
By not going quietly away, we will drag the rest of the country through it with us.
It will be messy, but it's the only way.

[seabeyond]

10. i just loved your post and then saw it was you

a huge ass yup

not a hard one. dont know why it is for so many

[SoCalDemGrrl]

11. Well said TIA, couldn't agree more

[brindis_desala]

12. great post as usual TIA

Sad to say election fraud (minority voter suppression, dead people voting, ballot tampering) has always been part of American democracy.
What's different is the machines, which I believe are responsible for this Republican Senate and perhaps some of the House as well. HAVAS was a Trojan horse but thanks to bloggers like you and others at DU and elsewehere, we have a chance to lift the rock and expose the maggots. If (and it's a big IF)we succeed then we'll see how many Americans are willing to fight for authentic democratic government.

[Joe Chi Minh]

43. I don't think you understand.

The scale of the fraud and intimidation, not even taking into account the subsequent cover-up - is so immense that even partisan judges would have difficulty in countenancing the abyss of disgrace brought thereby upon, not just the Republican party, but the country, itself.

Every country, even at the "second-top table" of nations - needs the merest fig leaf of respectability. But the jibe about a banana republic would scarcely begin to describe this. Neither would the fact that criminal conduct of elections has historically been accepted by the body politic, and more specifically the neocons, as the norm in the US, count in mitigation. Quite the reverse. It just seems to add horror upon horror. Many, many more people around the world, who would otherwise have been relatively unaware of the historical scale of electoral criminality in the US, will have been appalled to learn about this latest wholesale mockery of universal franchise. Florida 2000 seemed beyond belief. But, this is a different order of magnitude again. Right off the scale.

[TruthIsAll]

13. That's 10 who like my post. Soon ********* will be here to crap on it n/t

Just watch...

[helderheid]

14. make that 11

[IAMREALITY]

15. And 12...

It's hard to look back to 2000 sometimes though. Sometimes when I look back I wish so hard we could go back in time. I always feel like I COULD'VE fought harder, if only I had known.

That is why I fight so hard today. I NEVER want those regrets of 2000 ever again.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

17. 13!

I have been trying to explain to all these people around me that this time we CAN change things. All I am hearing is... "they've always done this, it will never change," or some Infuriating variation. Thanks Truth!! This one gets sent to EVERYONE!
:7
:yourock:
as usual.

[bj2110]

20. #14 here.... nt

[Nederland]

24. Hello

I assume you mean me. Well, you'll be happy to know I'm giving up on you because you have refused to answer my question about whether or not you trust Mitofsky for several weeks now. I'm not going to bother wasting time on someone that is afraid of a simple question.

[TruthIsAll]

33. See, I told you all...he's baaaaack from never-neverland n/t

.

[Nederland]

37. See, I told you all TIA wouldn't answer the question (nt)

Bock, bock, bock!!!

[Elidor]

40. Hey, Nederland!

Tell us all again how it's okay for "entrepreneurs" to charge for drinking water in Iraq. That was a lot of yucks, as I remember it. You always were such a softie. There's a simple question for ya! :hi:

[Darknyte7]

29. Great post TIA!

There was some talk about intimidation in a few African-American communities about Jacksonville & Tallahassee in 2000, but you're right, it got little run in the MSM and the "F" word was never invoked. Keep telling the truth man!

[crispini]

16. Good post, TIA.

I really wish I could be a fly on the wall in a room where our Democratic leadership is meeting. They must be AWARE, but do they UNDERSTAND, or are they in denial and writing the whole thing off as :tinfoilhat: our wild internet conspiracy theories? :shrug:

Edited to add: Or is it something ELSE?

[texpatriot2004]

18. Kick it for TruthIsAll, a mighty good man

[fshrink]

19. Yep. That's indeed the only question.

And being by nature pessimistic, for the short term, I feel that we are going to have to swallow a re-framed version of the getoverit. My anger derives more from the fact that there's such a small handful of professional progressive politicians who have expressed explicitly and publicly their dismay at the apalling state of corruption of our electoral system. Just that would pump me up. Even those who have nothing to lose, Clinton, Carter, Gore. Nothing. It's like everyone is waiting for the other to make the move. Bystanders watching the wounded scream on the sidewalk.

[Bill Bored]

21. Great post TIA! I'm NOT here to crap on it but...

...I just believe that much of the _larger_systemic_fraud_case_ is based on one exit poll and we need more than that to infer and especially to _prove_ it.

I posted a QUESTION for you about one of your studies on this thread
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x140579>
which I've now dredged up from the recent archives because you never answered it.

Care to try now, hopefully without _insulting_ what I consider to be a healthy dose of skepticism -- something the Repukes would not tolerate, but we as progressives should be able to?

(Sorry in advance if I'm boring you.)

Here is my question:

>>
But many large discrepancies are not swing states

TIA,

I thought the idea behind the big fraudchilada was to hack the vote in the swing states. This graph clearly shows that there were large red shifts in SC, NE, AL, NY, RI, MA, etc. Not much point in hacking those is there? And if instead of the electoral vote, you wanted to hack the popular vote, why is the discrepancy so small in CA and TX and why are they shifted blue?

Of course, as usual, I do NOT mean to rule out the possibility of election fraud!
>>

So tell me why, according to the graphs you've produced, are there so many large red shifts in the non-swing states and some blue shifts in some large states where a red shift would be useful for Shrub to hack the popular vote?

I suppose we could say that they were just trying to cover their tracks, but I'm hoping for something a little more thoughtful. And in your opinion, will this be settled once Mitofsky releases his raw exit poll data in a few months? Or has that been expedited through the efforts of activists? If not, maybe it should be.

Thanks!

[TruthIsAll]

31. I thought I answered that one already. Here's the reason.

The goal, in fact the need, was to steal FL and OH, but also to pad the popular vote nationwide to make it look legitimate. This is best accomplished in non-swing states, whether they went for Kerry or Bush. Who would notice it?

If Kerry won OH, it means he must have done BETTER than Gore did nationwide. And Gore won the popular vote.

[Bill Bored]

34. Yes but then why did 2 of the most populous non-swing states

(TX and CA) shift Blue?

And why did a Blue state like NY, which has relatively few electronic machines (I'll get the percentage later if I can find it but NYC doesn't have a single one!) shift Red?

You must admit that the argument has a few inconsistencies.

And you didn't answer the question about Mitofsky's raw data. This is what the academics such as Freeman are asking for isn't it? If it somehow shows that the exit polls were screwed up, would that change your mind?

There's plenty of fraud to go around without the big one.

We know that FL is by all measures a failed state, not unlike the old South Africa. Ohio may fall into this same category, although one of the major perpetrators there happens to be Black.

These two are more than enough to allow the election to be stolen without the nationwide electronic conspiracy you suggest. Of course, the big conspiracy is possible, but that doesn't make it so.

Regarding the popular vote: it doesn't mean a damn thing because there was no campaigning outside the swing states. The mandate idea is therefore a fraud too and anyone who suggests that it means anything at all in our current electoral system is not being realistic. Neither candidate campaigned with a view toward winning the popular vote.

[TruthIsAll]

35. Bush not interested in winning the popular vote big?

You are in denial. He lost the popular vote last time, remember? He couldn't let that happen again.

Could NY have shifted RED (beyond the MOE) because Bush could pad the votes there? Do they have optiscans? Or Touchscreens? Check it out.

TX shifted BLUE by 1.4%, far below the MOE. Bush won Texas easy, remember? Does there have to be a RED shift in ALL 50 states plus DC for you to believe Bush stole it? Is 41 not enough?

Is that the best you can do? Isolate a few states - with weak arguments, to boot?

As for the felon list, that was proven a long time ago by Greg Palast. There is no point in arguing with you if you ignore the facts. As for whether any suits pertaining to the disenfranchisement of blacks in Florida, once again you conveniently forget the facts.

Are you aware that Jeb Bush had to settle with the NAACP with a promise not to repeat, otherwise they would have taken him to court. The NAACP screwed up by not going forward with the case. They gave him a slap on the wrist.

The Bushes get away with everything.

[Bill Bored]

39. You misunderstand me

1. I'm saying the Felons list itself was a form of election fraud.

2. Sure Shrub was motivated to get the popular vote, but as far as the campaign goes, it's irrelevant because there was no campaigning in non-swing states. I guess the RNC being in NY is an exception to that though, and THAT could explain the red shift in NY too. I'll check on the machines.

3. Re NAACP, Jeb did repeat! Same felons list this year. Next thing you know the IRS is after the NAACP, but they should still be going after Jeb for repeating his crime. I am disappointed.

[Peace Patriot]

41. This is utter nonsense...

"...I just believe that much of the _larger_systemic_fraud_case_ is based on one exit poll..."

Have you read the UC Berkeley analysis of Florida, and ignatzmouse's analysis of North Carolina? One is based on electronic voting vs. traditional voting methods, the other on a 30% absentee ballot vote (paper trail) vs. electronic voting. These studies are showing the same discrepancies favoring Bush that the exit poll studies are showing, with similar huge odds against the pro-Bush results.

Everywhere we look, we're finding weird, anomalous, impossible numbers. I just reviewed the election results in San Bernardino, CA, where apparently about 2,000 Bush voters also voted for a leftwing woman, Barbara Boxer, for Senator, when they had the choice of a rightwing Republican white male. Figure that one out! Kerry got only 43% to Bush's 55%, while Boxer got 49% (and won the county) to her opponent Bill Jones' 45%. What can be the explanation? The only one I can think of is that the county actually went "bluer" than it appeared to (in the official tally), and those 2,000 or so votes (Bush votes that went to Boxer) were stolen from Kerry. They were NOT Bush votes.

There is simply no way that that many people who voted for Bush also voted for Boxer. I'd believe 50 maybe, even 100, strange votes--confused voters, weird voters, whatever. (Republican women voting pro-choice occurred to me--but it's just too many to make sense--how could that many pro-choice Republican women vote for Bush?)

We see a similar phenomenon in the Berkeley study, where they estimate that about 100,000 to 300,000 votes were manufactured for Bush, or stolen from Kerry, in FLA's three biggest Democratic counties. And there have been several Ohio and NC items where the top of the ticket vs. lower ticket doesn't make sense (in Ohio, an underfunded, unknown, black woman judicial candidate pulling far more votes than Kerry).

Then there are the 90-some reports of touchscreens changing a Kerry vote to a Bush vote--all day long, with no repair of the machine or correction (and these being just the instances that were caught by alert voters.) And the reports of purges of black voters from the voter rolls (est. 1 million nationwide), with the same tactics being used against Hispanics and Native Americans; duly registered voters not appearing on the voter rolls, getting challenged and having to vote provisionally; 10 hour voting lines due to a shortage of voting machines only in Dem and minority precincts; Republican election officials inventing new rules to suppress Dem voter registration and votes (for instance, a new requirement that you have to register on 80 lb. paper, or you have to check the citizenship box in two different places on your provisional ballot); misdirection by election officials as to what precinct to vote in; 60,000 absentee ballots "lost in the mail" just before the election; Republican operatives (paid by the RNC) in three states throwing away Dem registrations, and on and on and on and on--over 50,000 complaints--all, ALL, harming Democratic or minority voters, and favoring Bush.

You've got your head in the sand! You seem obsessed with the exit poll evidence to the exclusion of all the other evidence. The exit poll discrepancies exist in a CONTEXT of voluminous evidence of a fraudulent, invalid election, with extraordinary unfairness to one candidate, and considerable evidence that he actually won.

You also ignore the most obvious thing of all: Why did Republicans fight like hell against providing a paper trail for electronic voting (DeLay refused to let it out of committe)? Why did the Republican-controlled electronic voting companies insist on SECRET source code for their central vote tabulators and individual voting machines, and also insist that no paper trail was needed?

A paper trail and open source code are a no-brainer as to election transparency. Why wouldn't Tom DeLay and Wally O'Dell and all the rest of them WANT transparency?

[Bill Bored]

51. Not in the sand at all -- READ!

I am not the one obsessed with the exit polls!

All I said was that we may be relying on them too heavily to prove the existence of widespread fraud on a national level. Mitofsky himself has said as much, but I do think he needs to be held accountable for his data. Right now we are taking it as gospel, which may be a bit presumptuous, given that even he hasn't. If he's a Shrub operative of some kind, we have to prove that too. Frankly, we should be all over this guy! But because his numbers fit into your concept of election fraud, you're giving him a pass. This reminds me of the neo-cons who have given a Bush a pass for not stopping 9/11 because the new Pearl Harbor scenario fits _their_ agenda.

I am fully aware of the situation in Ohio (Moyer vs. Connally race) and have in fact posted some stats that I have not seen anywhere else that show that there were 4 counties in which Bush actually got fewer votes than the Republican judicial candidate, Moyer. In 12 counties however, Kerry got fewer votes than the Democrat, Connally, and if you look at the difference between Bush and Kerry votes in all 16 of these anomalous counties, Bush got 150,000 more votes than Kerry did in the aggregate (all 16 counties where either judge got more votes than a presidential candidate). This is not head-in-the-sand thinking on my part is it??? It's just looking at BOTH sides of the issue to come up with a conclusion. Anything less is unscientific.

As far as Berkeley, I have not had a chance to read it yet, but it's only focusing on FL, which I've already said is pretty much a failed state (like the old South Africa was) and is therefore inherently non-democratic to begin with. Keep in mind that along with Berkeley, there is also the study that showed that more Dems voted for Bush in FL counties that used OptiScans as opposed to DREs. So it's not so simple. FL needs REGIME CHANGE before we can even BEGIN to take any of their election results seriously! Easier said than done of course, but that's my head-out-of-the-sand view of it.

The voter suppression stuff is real and effective. But since suppressed voters did not vote, they would NOT be counted in the exit polls! I repeat, I am not the one obsessed with the exit polls.

Now, here's an excerpt from a NY State bill, A08847, regarding e-voting:

"Pursuant to this legislation each voting machine will be required to
produce a paper, voter verifiable audit record. These records will be
retained by the voting machine. This legislation requires that in 2%
of election districts these records shall be manually examined and
tallied and that such tallies will be compared against the
electronically recorded results."

Pretty good huh??? Not only is there a paper trail, but an automatic mandatory recount, similar to the one taking place in Ohio right now! I signed a petition to help make this happen. Not exactly head-in-the-sand either, is it? My state won't even buy these frickin' machines before the 2006 election because we want to get it right.

Now, as for NY's RED SHIFT, which was just as large as the other states in the exit polls, I am still checking to see what machines are in use throughout the state, but if it turns out that they are all or nearly all mechanical lever machines, which can't be hacked, what will say about the exit polls then?

I hope we can continue these discussions in a civil way. I think we owe it to ourselves.

[Bill Bored]

22. The bogus FL felons list alone is FRAUD!

And they tried it again this year!

Anyone know the results of any lawsuits that may have been filed about this in 2001?

[StephanieMarie]

23. I like all your posts. Well thought out, I say. n/t

[SeattleRob]

25. Very true!

:kick:

[Broken Acorn]

27. You're absolutely right: Fraud was never used

Only which votes to count. But looking back, fraud was definitely the vehicle.

[shiina]

30. Great points

The other big difference is that the general population believes it's already over and the MSM won't talk about it. * and Co. know image is everything in this country. That was very artful of them.

Or, the other possibility is that Kerry knew he couldn't win if it stayed above-ground, he would just be called a sore loser. So he's trying to do things in the background and trusting people like us to stay on top of it and do the neccessary grass-roots work. See : http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=172738&mesg_id=172738

Which one is it? Who knows. The second is an interesting prospect, for sure.

[melissinha]

32. My bet is they wanted to pad popular vote

I agree, that they wanted to pad the popular vote to make it look good

AND

With a 3.5 million popular vote lead Bush claimed he had a mandate... How much you want to bet they padded non-swing states to get that popular vote up for him to be able to publicly state he has a mandate AND of course for the MSM to justify ignoring our pleas.

Of course the GOP wouldn't DARE go that far.. would they?

I hate hearing that excuse most of all... I am mad and no amount of people telling me to "Get Over It" is going to change my mind.

[GetTheRightVote]

36. Yes, TruthIsAll, the big question, is it sink or swim for Kerry/DNC ??

Or do we capture the movement and take our voices and raise them higher then even the Kerry/DNC expected. Will they one day plead with us to give their jobs back, yes they will because we are moving forward with or without them to get our country back on the right track. Yes, the everyday ciziten deserves their day in the sun, that day is today, moving forward.

2000 = 2004 all due to fraud and deceit on repub party, it is long over due to put the right name to the issue ===>>> election fraud.

[SomthingsGotaGive]

38. Truth Is All ...

You are a true DU hero.

Where can I send you a bottle of booze for Christmas.

You help me feel sane.

You help me see the insanity of others.

Keep on keepin on.

[KE_04]

42. 2000 vs. 2004 elections

This is my first post, so forgive me if I'm breaking any rules or stepping on toes here. I admit it, I have been lurking here for about 2 weeks, and am being more enlightened and informed every day by the posts here. If any are interested, here is my take on how we start winning elections, other than how THEY have been winning them.
First, we need to put distance between ourselves and the most radical elements of the environmental groups. Most people think those groups are wacko and "out in left field". EXAMPLE: When someone chains themselves to a tree because someone else wants to cut that tree down, the chained person is viewed as someone "with problems". They need to calm down, start using the legal system to their advantage.
Second, unions. The labor movement has done ALOT of good for the average worker in the last hundred or so years, but their ranks are shrinking, and what is left is seen as a bunch of angry, unhappy people. EXAMPLE: Here in PA, the toll collectors on the PA Turnpike walked out on strike a few weeks ago. I had no idea these people were even unionized! They make, on AVERAGE, $21 an hour, FOR MAKING CHANGE. They have an excellent health care plan, generous vacations and personal time off. This job should be an entry level job or a job for high schoolers trying to learn how the world works. I'm sorry, but $21 an hour for handing someone a quarter as change is a bit over the top.
In my opinion, outrageous things like this are ONE reason gas, for example, is $2 a gallon.
Third, abortion. Our collective support for a woman's right to choose may need a re-think. Granted, there are pro-life Democrats, (Lieberman?) and there are pro-choice rethugs, (Specter?). The MAJORITY of Dems are pro-choice. This is the major reason the Evangelicals went for Bush. That and the anti-Gay amendments on so many state ballots. (ALL of which went down in smoking defeat, even in Oregon)
Fourth, unity. In this past election, how many Democratic candidate were in the primaries? Twelve, thirteen? How do we expect to get ONE message out when all of the candidates of the same party are bashing each other? Two or three candidates on the trail would be more effective. Better advisor's would help too. You can't go windsurfing, wear a ridiculous bunny suit at NASA, and have your wife walking around calling people "stupid" and expect to win.
Don't get the wrong idea from this post. I wanted JK to win this thing as badly as everyone else here, but some of the things I mentioned did us in. The average American voter may not be the most informed voter in the world, but they know what they DON'T want. EXAMPLE: The Dean SCREAM. When the MSM played that, and re-played that, his run was OVER. He wasn't "acting" Presidential. Again, don't take it wrong, our current president doesn't always look Presidential either. The best example of that was the photos of him with his zipper open I saw posted here the other day somewhere.
To wrap this up, yes we need to continue the fight in Ohio and elsewhere, but CAN'T take it "over the top" or we will be seen as sore losers. We should fight for election reform. I'm not so sure paper receipts are the way to go, though. With all of the software available today, someone with minimal skills could start a whole new industry, editing your ballot for a fee. Keep pressure on your Senators and Representatives.
Because John Kerry cares about this country, he will fight alongside us, publicly or behind the scenes, like I believe he is doing right now. He doesn't need the added distraction of the media hounding him. For one thing, he is probably tired of that after the campaign.
I am SO glad I found the DU!!

[bemis12]

45. You mean we should become Republicans?

Yeah, real good idea.

I don't think we need to moderate our psoitions, at least not much. A moderation of our TONE might be advantageous, while not changing our message.

[KE_04]

50. Tone is...

Bemis, I guess what the theme of my post WAS the tone of our message. We simply CANNOT let the other side take the issues I cited and twist them into what something that is not true, or at least blow them out of proportion. A LITTLE separation from the VERY FAR left like the tree huggers and the violent activists is what I mean. We are not violent people, just Americans trying to offer an alternative to the current "regime". Our message hasn't been clear. Like I said, there were so many candidates during the primaries, each firing off their own positions, that there was no coherent and consistent theme. I understand each needed to stake out their own territory, but a few came across as borderline socialists, which this country is simply not ready for. Another example I used was unions. When they strike, if for a valid reason such as maltreatment or unsafe working conditions, it's justified. When they stike for money alone, some view that as greed. Take my example of the PA turnpike workers. There is an electronic system for those who subscribe called E-Z Pass, no toll collector needed. When they struck, the subscription to that doubled. They will be out of jobs if that continues!

[skids]

46. Being gentle....

While you may have the perception problem dems have among the right, what you are essentially trying to say is that we should appease the right by taking some of the things that annoy them away.

What you don't get is that those things that annoy the right were manufactured by the far right, through their propaganda machines. They have managed to twist the truth around and portray liberals in the kind of light that suits their purpose.

If we did as you suggest, the Limbaughs and Hannity's etc. would just manufacture more.

After a while, you will come to realize that the strategy of the far right is that of a high school bully. The only way to beat them is to stand up against them, until they realize that we do not and will never believe they are as strong as they pretend to be. Once they lose this veneer of power, we win, and the leftists and sensible rightist can come together and debate stuff in a civilized manner, rather then the name calling that goes on now.

Sometimes you can't take the high road. There are the types of people in the world who specialize on being bandits of the high road. So we adopt their tactics, add a little class and try to keep things from getting too unprincipled, and fight fire with fire.

[robbedvoter]

48. Dear, who are we? Do we believe in anything? Did we win?

Spoken like a true DNC mailer. :boring: :puke:

[robbedvoter]

47. Baker was talking about "mischief" - from the democrats

And afterwards the foot soldiers were fed stories of "we stopped them from stealing it" as the big wigs were chortling in DC: "We stole it fair and square".
Today the media approved word is "glitches". There are plenty of overvotes (more ballots then voters) and undervotes (92,000 that I know of in Ohio) but they are not making into the official story. In fact, hardly anything does. More people got active - because they noticed (just as in 2000), but plenty were there, looking and still say "kerry got pretty close to a wartime president and that's darn tooting good - nest time he'll get even closer"

I am going to a voting rights rally today - hopefully I'll return in a better mood.

[NicRic]

49. knew it was coming ,happen anyway !

I remember my brother and I discussing the election a good six months B/4 it took place and I said ,it does'nt matter who they(Dems) pick , the fix is in and probably no one except President Clinton ,could win against the bush gang. The power of big money always seems to win over truth and justice. The amonut of $ at stake for these corperations that profit off of wars with no reason and the corruption that big $ bring s into the process ,all but sealed the fate of who ever ran up against this gang of wise guys (except the idiot puppet) They carefully pulled it off ,and they may do it again in 2008, can you say President jeb ?