OK. It's about 50/50.

[fshrink]

Half of us feel like Kerry should do more and push for it, if only by being cranky, and call him on it. This half also tends to be more pessimistic.
Half of us feel like Kerry does what he can, must and that he deserves unconditional support. This half tends to be more optimistic.

This is probably partially summarized, but that's in the ball-park.

Now, we are obviously talking about more than a few individuals on each "side". These are actual, real, differences each supported by a number of people. And the funny thing is that each side, simultaneously, understands the reasons of the other. At least that is my case.

Thereferore, I suggest that each side post answers/arguments in favor of the *other* side without saying a word about one's own side. I'll start.

I think that Kerry would have been better than Clinton. He's smart and fast and I think has nerves. I do not doubt that his fundamental "values" (I hate that word so much now!) are similar to mine. I won't even waste a second to compare him to the idiot. His handling of the current crisis has been so far a model of political sense: progressive and prudent. I can understand that the view associated with that level of responsibility comes with a sense of time different of ours. Four years in politics is 4 months for me. I can live with that. I would have celebrated his victory as mine. I voted (I think) for him. It is possible that his relative silence be part of a plan.

[impeachthescoundrel]

1. I agree with you

There is nothing that leads me to believe anything other than silence speaks volumes. John Kerry is no idiot. I think he is handling this exactly as he should.

[fshrink]

2. Did you speak for the "opposite" opinion?

[New Earth]

49. no

because i didn't read your post correctly

:spank:

[acmavm]

I don't have the faintest idea what Kerry is up to, if anything. That's

why I don't try to say too much. One day I was angry because he hadn't spoken out (after his concession) but since then I've decided to wait and see if he's just not giving the repukes enough rope to hang themselves.

Regardless, bush** will should now go down in history with not one, but TWO asterisks beside his name.

[ClassWarrior]

9. Good strategy. If I have doubts about JK, why would I offer them up...

...to the Radical RW to use against him?? Why not just keep my mouth shut and, if I have to share them, share them privately?

NGU.

[New Earth]

3. i agree as well

i still wonder what the deal is with Cobb. why would he say those things at a time when Kerry has been nothing BUT actively getting involved????

[Griffy]

4. some of the negative Kerry comments come from freeps...

since I cant imagine hey even know enough to compliment him, and they love to berate everyone.

Kerry is just 1 man... if you want democracy.. be in DC on the 6th!

[fshrink]

8. You didn't play by the rules...

[Downtown Hound]

5. Hmm...I agree with you that Kerry would have been a great president

I personally think that Kerry's political strategy is long term. He is planning on running again in 2008, and he doesn't want to jeapordize that now. Although I personally want to see him take the gloves off and come out swinging, I can understand why he isn't.

The thing I do fault Kerry for is letting the Repukes steal the election so easily. He had ample warnings about the voting machines, and he chose not to heed them. There is too much at stake right now to allow that kind of blindness. Our leaders need to understand that the Repukes will do anything to sieze power and hold it. They need to stop being naive. They need to prepare for every possible dirty trick the Republicans can come up with and figure out an effective countermeasure. Kerry didn't do that this election. Although I think he's a great man and would make a great president, he does not understand how to combat these bastards' dirty tricks.

[KaliTracy]

18. i think he does

but i don't think it's something posted on his website.

[dreamcollector]

46. It's better for the Democrats that Bush/Rove stole the election

because unless the Democrats were complete and total idiots they were expecting it and were prepared for it. If they can prove massive fraud (& I'll bet they can) they will wipe the floor with the Republican party for years to come. It is worse than Wtaregate by far and the neo Cons will be toast. Why would Kerry and his lawyers show their hand until the perfect moment? I am going to just LOVE watching this happen!(Canadian observer.)

[Straight Shooter]

6. Okay, here's my argument as if I were a Kerry detractor

First let me say my stomach's not too happy about taking this position.

Here goes: John Kerry, in response to Howard Dean in a debate, stated emphatically, "I don't need a lesson in courage from you." Yet it would take extraordinary courage to come out and give those who voted for John Kerry a reason to really really fight for Ohio, because he would be taking on the entire media and the rotten bush gang all over again. Why hasn't John Kerry come out and spoken very strongly, again, about the need to count every vote? Even if he believes the election cannot be overturned, what would be the harm in demonstrating leadership in the Democratic party so that everyone would know where we stand and what we stand for?

[fshrink]

10. Wasn't easy for me either. But now we both agree!

[Straight Shooter]

19. But I still maintain my strong pro-Kerry position

This is what I would counter-argue to my Kerry detractor argument: When John Kerry met with Daniel Ortega, he was villified for doing so, called a Communist, a traitor, blah blah blah. Sound familiar?

As it turns out, after much time passed, John Kerry had done the right thing.

With the passage of time, hindsight has favored John Kerry and shown him to be wise in his actions, although others could not see the wisdom of at that time and place.

Although I am very much pro Kerry because of my knowledge of his history, I sit on the jury and wait for all the evidence to come in before forming my final opinion. And to tell the truth, the way things are going, that might take years.

edit typo

[ClassWarrior]

7. I'll speak for a third position...

I'm guessing the majority position:

John Forbes Kerry is not the enemy.

George W. Bush**, Dick W. Cheney**, and the Radical W. Rightwing are the enemies.

NGU.

[EFerrari]

11. Could you clarify "optimistic" and "pessimistic" about what? n/t

[seito]

12. OK I'll Bite

I think that John Kerry needs to address his supporters. I believe another underground video would do the trick. There are a whole lot of people fighting for him, whether he wants them to or not. They are fighting with their heart and soul to pursue the values that made this nation great.

All you disgruntled, despondent, and otherwise pessimistic supporters that are STILL fighting the good fight. :yourock:

America owes you a debt of gratitude and so does John Kerry. I think you will find that your actions will not go unrecognized. (Was it OK to say that last part?) :toast:

[EFerrari]

13. Okay, I'll bite. It isn't easy, though, is it?

Kerry, as we have seen from that great analysis of his consession speech, is using his experience and his intelligence as he moves through this minefield.

He is using surrogates to draw fire as they bring up issues that he'd get creamed for broaching. And in doing this, he has to have a LOT of trust both in his surrogates and in his supporters. Because it hasn't escaped him that there is a vast ocean of us.

And as the evidence mounts regarding the massive election fraud, the opposition doesn't have any target big enough to flip the situation on. Karl Rove must be eating Valium like M&Ms, to steal a simile.

[New Earth]

14. lol

[EFerrari]

15. Candy, Faye? Just happen to be passing this bowl around. lol

[New Earth]

16. am i losing it?

or did your outlook on what Kerry's doing change in the last few days?

[fshrink]

17. She plays by the rules and you still don't...

[New Earth]

24. wtf are u talking about

i think people are misunderstanding what i said, but that's not unusual.

[EFerrari]

20. If you're not losing it, you haven't been paying attention <g>

I think I got shellacked by "tired of being screwed by criminals" burnout a few nights ago. And, 'member, I'm a Green who campaigned for Kerry, so maybe my Green mentality is different in some way.

And maybe, it's hard to trust that "whole behind the scenes" thing. So, to answer you're question, I don't know! But disgruntled or not, the fight continues, right?

/typing challenged

[seito]

25. Hey sfexpat2000

Since we are doing therapy and all, I was just wondering...Am I still on you IGNORE list? :pals:

[EFerrari]

36. (I can barely figure out how to login yet, lol! Sorry)

[intelle]

21. Faye...this is a group therapy kind of thing n/t

[EFerrari]

22. otherwise known as "building consensus" and a great idea imo

[New Earth]

23. i don't know how you guys read that

i don't understand what you're saying to me.

all i meant was, it seemed like sfexpat2000 isn't as negative as he was a few days ago.

what did i do :(

[EFerrari]

27. Nuttin' Faye. And I think you may be right. I feel better than a

few nights ago because I got to air out how I felt and get to the other side of the thing.

Don't make me use an emoticon ; )

[seito]

29. The idea was that we take a position on the other side

and speak about it in a positive tone.

I can really see the benefit of this because most of us ARE on the same side. As ClassWarrior stated the majority position is that the real enemy is The chimp king and his puppet masters.

It helps to reach across the isle and find the common ground that we all share, regardless of our personal beliefs and speculation about John Kerry.

[brindis_desala]

44. IMHO I think the problem DUers are having

is that there are two strands that connected in this election. Those who came to trust and believe in Kerry and those who just want BushCo out by any means necessary. But with the rampant fraud being consistently exposed it makes any long term view seem more and more tenuous.

[EFerrari]

48. One way to see. Another is, some people are just more at ease

raising questions than others? Or, dealing with ambiguity?

Remember how many different kinds of groups and folk of all stripes came together behind Kerry. Sure, we're going to disagree on the details but what brought us together can still keep us together: replacing a criminal cartel with an administration that shares our values.

[bunny planet]

47. Read the top of the thread.

We are supposed to express the opposite opinion on what's going on from the one we actually believe. I can't do it, I tried but I couldn't post it.

[intelle]

26. Perhaps. n/t

[fshrink]

28. It's called "thinking". But maybe you don't need it?

[intelle]

30. Thinking on one's own is preferable as far as I am concerned n/t

[EFerrari]

32. Me, too. But, it doesn't help build community, does it? n/t

[intelle]

35. Just be up front about your intentions is all

then, those who participate can participate because they know what they are participating in.

Me, I think we already have a community -- and I think a certain amount of disagreement is healthy.

[EFerrari]

39. Makes sense to me. n/t

[intelle]

41. Thanks, sfexpat2000

:-)

[fshrink]

51. Agreed. A certain amount of agreement also is healthy.

[fshrink]

33. Granted. And you're here to think on your own?

[intelle]

42. Please see post #35

It is really all I have to say. I am off to view other threads.

:-)

[EFerrari]

31. Okay, passing the bowl to fshrink

[New Earth]

34. whatttttttttttttttt

why are you all over me? all i did was comment that sfexpat2000 sounded more positive than he did a few days ago. ok, so no comments allowed? not even if they are positive?

[EFerrari]

37. Passing the bowl back to Faye. Hey, I really appreciated your

thread last night, Faye. It's hard to stay on the same side even when we're on the same side because we're so effen tired and info overloaded. And I think fshrink was talking to intelle?

[New Earth]

40. ok i guess i got confused

didn't know who was talking to who.

[EFerrari]

43. welcome to the monkeyhouse n/t

[New Earth]

50. hey

looks like i didn't read the f*cking post!!! you aren't more positive you are stating the opposite of how you really feel!!!

duh me, lol :(

[fshrink]

53. Lol. That's almost the idea.

Almost, since I think we basically agree, so that it's not really the *opposite* of what we really feel. Rather an unformulated part.

[EFerrari]

54. good job, fshrink n/t

[New Earth]

55. ok fine then here's mine.

Kerry is a wimp, a coward, an idiot, and doesn't give a shit about his country. he should have never conceded and fought this election to the bitter end and put up with all the bs the media and Bush camp would have spat at him. i don't think he has a plan at all, i think he is pulling our leg to make us think he is involved with the election investigation and i also believe he does not want to be President. Oh, and I also believe that he struck a Skull n Bones deal with Bush.

on that note, i think i'm gonna have to

:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:
:puke:

[EFerrari]

57. Okay, that skull & bones stuff is over the top. lol

[New Earth]

64. lol i know

but it's going around :eyes:


***breaks rules***

[SueZhope]

67. I was waiting for you to say skull& bones..and you did LOL n/t

[EFerrari]

72. You 2 just made me remember when Kerry was mopping the

floor with * during the debates. * looked like a pine cone had just been thrust into an uncomfortable place. The camera panned to Kerry, and he was just smiling, like, "Can't help it if I'm good at thinking and talking, *" Loved that take.

[seito]

73. Faye, you are getting a little "Testy " That was perfect!!!!

ROFLMAO

[New Earth]

74. lollll

testy hehehehehe i'd like to hear good ol' testy's 'opposite take'. :o

[EFerrari]

77. Well, you asked.

Someone might ask: "I wonder why you'd be so intolerant of other viewpoints when inclusiveness is one of the defining values of the Democratic Party? When we know patience and acceptance of diversity is so much more powerful than making one individual into a cult?"

And I guess (only guessing) that fshrink was trying to get us to move from entrenched positions and back into that 95% of the stuff we agree on.

And I'm glad he did. Because we're facing a criminal conspiracy and will have to get really good at coorperating with that other 5% we disagree with if we're going to get the job done. Just my .02

[New Earth]

78. you're not testy!

testy knows damn well who he is and i can't wait to hear from him in this thread. :P

[EFerrari]

79. taking the bowl and going into the kitchen

[EFerrari]

59. Maybe, or maybe trying to understand and dup another view?

[seito]

81. sfexpat2000

Trust us, you are not Testy, and there is nothing wrong with another point of view. Healthy debate is great and leads to better understanding. However, some posters are consistently "over the top" and their posts do nothing more than light flame wars and elicit knee jerk reactions.

Faye's post was practically a direct quote, except she left out the part about "the SBVT were probably right in all those commercials"

[dreamcollector]

52. RIGHT ON

I think he's a genius! And he'll be more popular all over the world than JFK and Teresa more popular than Jackie. Just watch. Roll on 2005!

[fshrink]

68. So, you don't want to play? What's your critique of him?

[chomskysright]

38. DOES ANY ONE KNOW HOW TO CONTACT KERRY?....

RE: THIS MATTER:

Dear Concerned Citizen:

We are writing to you directly to explain the work that we have undertaken
and ask you to help us in whatever way you can to ensure that the Ohio vote
is accurately counted.

On Monday, 12/13, we filed a lawsuit against Bush, Cheney, Rove and others
on behalf of 44 Ohioans alleging that Bush won the Ohio election as a
result of fraud and that Kerry actually won the Ohio vote by 142,537 votes.
Specifically, the complaint alleges that votes were fraudulently
manipulated to affect the outcome of the election. Our law suit provides us
with the means to gather evidence relating to the fraud that we have
alleged. Only by establishing the fraud, will we be able to ensure an
accurate count of only those ballots legitimately cast.

As you are aware, also on Monday, 12/13, the Ohio recount requested by the
Green Party, began and is expected to be completed as early as 12/22.
Though we believe the recount should be done, we believe it cannot expose
the fraud that we have alleged and therefore will not expose the actions
taken by the Defendants which affected the outcome of the election.
Whereas, the recount can only count the ballots that the Boards of
Elections has in hand, the law suit can expose the fraud that resulted in
extra and destroyed ballots and machine manipulation. Thus, this lawsuit
can uncover what the recount cannot, and therefore is critical to exposing
the whole picture of fraud in Ohio.

We sincerely believe, based upon the objective facts, that our lawsuit will
demonstrate by January 6, 2005, the day on which Congress counts the
electoral votes, a level of fraud which resulted in wrongly securing the
election for Bush. We believe that even if we are delayed beyond January
6th, the ultimate result of this suit will be to uncover a level of fraud
which cannot be ignored and will ultimately result in proving that Kerry
won the election in Ohio and therefore the presidency.

To read the complaint go to http://joeorgren.com/MossvBush1.pdf

To watch a C-SPAN interview with Cliff Arnebeck cut and paste this link
into your internet browser:

rtsp://video.c-span.org/project/c04/c04_wj120204_arnebeck.rm

We have estimated that the suit will cost at least $200,000 to pursue.
This includes filing fees already spent, deposition costs and attorneys'
fees and expenses. If you are interested in ensuring that the
opportunities presented by this lawsuit are fully explored, please make a
donation to 'Ohio Election Litigation Fund' and mail it to Cliff Arnebeck,
Esq.,1351 King Avenue, 1st Floor, Columbus, Ohio 43212, along with your
email address. Any money donated to the fund will be held in trust and be
used only for the purposes of this law suit. We will provide each and
every donor with regular email updates regarding the progress of the
lawsuit. There is no contribution too small and we thank you for your
participation in this effort.

In addition, we are asking for lawyers to join our team. We need 10
litigators and 20-30 additional attorneys to assist in discovery efforts in
Ohio. If you are an attorney and are interested in working on this case,
please contact Gail Jonas who has agreed to coordinate this effort. Gail
can be emailed at [e-mail] or call her at 707 433 6845 or 707 431
8451.

We thank you for your support.

Sincerely,

Cliff Arnebeck

.

[EFerrari]

45. This looks like a great letter. It might do better on another thread?

[robbedvoter]

56. I think Kerry would have been Johnson minus the civil rights

He wouldn't have had the balls to stop the war, but at least internally things wouldn't have gotten worse. By the end of his presidency , everyone would have screamed for his head (as the GOP would, suddenly started opposing the war as well, with the media in tow)
To answer the main question: he was derelict in his duty as a winning candidate to make democracy, elections, our right to vote the major issue as of November 3rd. We should have had this public dialogue, not the values BS.
But that would have meant sticking his pretty neck out - and, as he told friends, it was God testing him. It seems democracy wasn't on the test (or else he failed)

[fshrink]

60. If you're from the "bashing" side, that doesn't sound like

a switch. If you're from the "support" side, then... wow..!

[EFerrari]

61. fshrink, you haven't answered my question about how you mean

optimistic/pessimistic.

My point being, there is a cluster of issues here. Someone could feel optimistic about Kerry yet not about the elections process but good about the future of the Dem party. Don't know if you broke it down, but you see what I mean?

[fshrink]

66. I don't know. I know I'm pissed. I know I'm not dumb. And I know

that a large proportion of people here agree with each other on 95%. Just trying to make that more obvious and a little more detailed, without falling into the very aggravating (to me) cheer-leading/group-hug thing.

[EFerrari]

70. I can't hug you, I don't know you that well.

And imho, you're right about the 95%.

Stressed out people tend to stress out all over other people. Thanks for working this thread. Done. B.

[robbedvoter]

62. I think he (ABB) won, so criticizing his campaign is silly. I also think

he betrayed us after winning. You figure out which side I am. I did vote for him(knowing full well that he would be unable to stop the war, reverse most BFEE atrocities). It's not the first time in his life he gave in to pressure.

[EFerrari]

58. Permission to go off topic/task now? n/t

[GetTheRightVote]

63. Kerry is a product of his raising just we all are but .........

He is smarter then *, more then likely would be willy to listen to the American people which * does not, he would sincerely attempt to reunite the country which * has no chance of after stealing election 2000 & 2004, they believe we have a very short memory but in reality we do not let us demostrate that to the policital machine which runs our country. Kerry understands us about as much as * but I believe he would be a better man for us to be represented by and at least he stepped into the vietnam war which * and his family would never do.

If any of the wealthy have even been close to us between the two it would without a doubt be Kerry. I believe he is protecting his career and that this will be his down fall with the American people because we expect more then this from our leaders. A leaders is born of necessarity not want, he will either lead us or fall by the way side because we pass him by on the way to discovering a real leader among them or ourselves. In politics you can not have it both ways, he must decide to lose his chance to ever lead us. His time for that decision is now and it is fading for him quickly. I personally feel that he is giving up on us and we will soon need to do the same to him, this is not his vietnam, he had his, it is our war to fight and win. We must win together or all is lost in our shared Democracy gone wrong.

[EFerrari]

69. To focus up for a minute on how to minimize conflict in DU,

(where we are still "raising ourselves", lol) I offer this communication tool. There are others, this one is the easiest to remember.

I work every day with people who are literally, medically paranoid. So, I had to learn how to talk to them so they could 1) calm down enough to hear & 2) feel enough support to consider and respond.

Is this making sense? None of us seem to be psychotic but it can't do any harm to apply the same tools when talking to worn out people who don't agree with you 100%. Avoid some cr&p and check this out:

SET (Like setting the table so a good meal can happen.)

Sympathy, empathy, truth. EX: Somebody says something you hate. "I can't believe John Kerry threw this election and betrayed millions of voters."

So, you say:

Sympathy: "That must be awful!"
Empathy: "I'd feel disappointed, too, after all that effort."
Truth: "Check out what he actually said. You'd be surprised at how active he's been."

What I like about this tool is that it gives me time to organize and not spew. And it usually ends up helping build thoughtfulness and cooperation where there could have been reactivity and acrimony.
fwiw,
Beth

[Nothing Without Hope]

65. Two potential scenarios to explain Kerry's silence

If Kerry's very fast concession and subsequent relative silence are NOT part of a strategy to combat the 2004 election fraud, the two most likely alternative explanations I see are:

SCENARIO A--it's all about the 2008 election. Kerry's primary goal, subsuming all else, is to set up for another run for the Presidency in 2008. He saw how Gore's political career was affected by contesting the 2004 election, and he wants to avoid being labeled as a sore loser and divider. He therefore judged that withdrawing as soon as the available numbers indicated to him that election in 2004 was mathematically impossible and then pushing for cleaner elections and being tough to the Repubs in the Senate in the interim, would be the best way to set himself up as the winning 2008 candidate. In this scenario, he does not believe that a significant number of his 2004 supporters would feel sufficiently outraged by his fast concession and failure to actively contest the fraud and voter suppression to withhold their support in 2008. He would also have to believe that no other potential candidates had a strong chance to displace him as Democratic presidential candidate.

Part of this 2008 election strategy would be that bad economy, further erosion of the war situation, possible terrorist attacks within the continental USA, and an increasing number of scandals and stupid mistakes by the 2nd Bush administration would erode support for both Bush and for Repub congressional candidates. He would plan to be at the forefront of any public effort to make the Democratic opposition look like a good choice. In this scenario, Kerry would have to feel that the further packing of the Supreme Court with activist neocon justices would either not matter or that their appointments could be blocked.

SCENARIO B--Impeachment and Repub fall from power -- In both scenarios, Kerry believes that contesting the 2004 election on the basis of fraud and voter disenfranchisement would be extremely difficult and divisive: even if it were ultimately possible to prove fraud, large segments of the country would remain convinced that Bush legitimately won the 2004 election. However, in Scenario B, Kerry has good reason (secret evidence?) to believe that enough "high crimes and misdemeanors" will come out in the next year or two that Bush can be impeached. Some of the scandals would be so heinous -- say, for example, proof that the Bush cartel arranged for or deliberately allowed the 9/11 attacks -- that even Bush's base would turn against him. In this scenario, significant numbers of powerful neocon congressional members would also be removed for their complicity, or at the least, public outrage would give a Democratic majority in the 2006 elections. The current neocon Repub policies would be utterly discredited, and the Democrats would regain popular support. and Congressional majorities and keep them for a long time.

The two scenarios have some things in common and differ mostly in degree. Clearly, impeachment of Bush, Cheney, and other guilty Repubs would put the 2008 Democratic candidate in a good position -- but it's the question of whether Kerry would judge that an attempt at impeachment would be successful and would not only result in removal but in disabling of the neocon Repub power structure. If Kerry were to play a conspicuous public role in all these events, he would be in a good position to be chosen as that candidate and to win the 2008 election.

By the way, I am hoping very hard that Kerry DOES have a plan to challenge the 2004 election. But it's hope, not anything near certainty. Everything that has happened can be parsed to support either side of the argument: he is or he isn't. So I am taking the position that we'd best do everything we can to get the truth out and challenge the Repubs without relying on anything from Kerry unless/until he makes it clear that he is taking a stand.

[politicasista]

75. That is interesting but,

he needs to speak and read about the woman who wrote in her diary at dailykos.com about him not standing up to African American disenfrancisement in Ohio and everywhere else. She is thinking of leaving the Democratic party for good if Kerry doesn't have our backs like he said he did. I think lots of us wished we could have re-elected Clinton and are just frustrated. If he runs in 2008, he may not have as near AA support as he did in this election. Our voting and civil rights are in serious jepoardy.

[EFerrari]

76. this is the real elephant in the livingroom: racism. And it's amazing

to me that people like Conyers and Jackson have the patience to deal with white folks who are now "black voters" because just as disenfranchised.

I feel like I've seen or known nothing or at very least, not enough, for all these years, even if I can recite the Ballad of Medgar Evers.

cr$p

[Nothing Without Hope]

83. I totally agree - the racism issue is central

The way I put it -- somewhat cryptically -- in my post was:

In this scenario, he does not believe that a significant number of his 2004 supporters would feel sufficiently outraged by his fast concession and failure to actively contest the fraud and voter suppression to withhold their support in 2008.

To me, this is the single most convincing reason to think that Kerry DOES have a plan for the 2004 election. Could he really be so utterly BLIND as to believe that the African Americans and other blatantly, criminally disenfranchised citizens would ever believe him, let alone support him, again? Or that this wouldn't also seriously damage their support for the Democratic party or their willingness to trust that "the system works, so we should work within it for justice and truth"? Even if he turns out to have been totally corrupted by power and hubris, surely he is a smart enough politician to know that the racism finally exposed for ALL to see in the 2004 election, the inequality and suppression he promised repeatedly to fight against, cannot be ignored. Betrayal of the people who believed him when he said he stood for and with them would never be forgiven. And no one with even a shred of integrity would stand silently by and allow this to happen.

A second, less compelling reason to believe that Kerry intends to prevent a 2nd Bush term is the fact that the next president will have the opportunity to make vitally important Supreme Court appointments. Again, only a morally corrupt politician would put his own ambitions above this issue.

Again, his past stands and apparent integrity make me lean toward thinking that Kerry will come through for 2004. But time is running out. If he's to redeem himself after his quick concession and successfully contest the 2004 election, he needs to make his move soon. At the latest, if it is essential to preserve secrecy until the last minute in order to assure a successful case, he would have to join in the Congressional challenge of the election results in early January and let the GLibs, Conyers, Jackson, the Congressional Black Caucus, and others take the public lead until then.

I'm not African American and I had no trouble at all voting in my district, but I too would never trust Kerry again if he doesn't fight. And I don't think this attitude is unusual.

[Chimpanzee]

71. I have no idea what Kerry is thinking or what his motives are

Speculation seems pretty pointless to me. If it turns out that the recount proves nothing, the suit is lost, and fraud cannot be proven (or the powers-that-be screw us one last time - take your pick), then Kerry is going to seem pretty astute.

[AmerDem]

80. what?

What is this bs?

"Half of us feel like Kerry should do more and push for it, if only by being cranky, and call him on it. This half also tends to be more pessimistic."

"Half of us feel like Kerry does what he can, must and that he deserves unconditional support. This half tends to be more optimistic."

First off, These are beyond general statements and we have no idea what subject you are referring too. Are you referring to Kerry taking the presidency? Are you referring to the end result of the voting fraud scandal? What is it you are referring to?

Secondly, You state flatly that anyone who thinks Kerry hasn't done enough is a pessimist. I say this is pure bullshit. I say Kerry has done hardly anything in way of the voting fraud scandal and what he has done was only because of people like Jackson, Cobb and others calling him out on it. Does that make me a pessimist? Hell no! I have no doubt in my mind that once Conyers, Jackson and Arnebeck are done making this issue headline news, we are gong to be left with a voting system that is honest and fool proof. The last I assumed this isn't a pessimistic view.

You have zero direction in your thought process!

[EFerrari]

82. Actually, fshrink didn't say that. You might want to take another

swipe at his post.

[AmerDem]

84. Am I making up the quotes I posted?

Reflect on your own advise and read.

[EFerrari]

85. Would it be harmful to recheck what you thought he said ?

[AmerDem]

86. I see what was written

Apparently reading comprehension wasn't your strong suit. Read the quotes I selected and once again read the opening post.

[fshrink]

87. Obviously,

you really don't like the word "pessimistic". Which is pretty much the only thing you communicate, aside from your many flat statements. Judging by the violence of your reaction, it must have some sort of terribly shameful meaning to you, .

For the content, I wrote this post after the many recent Kerry-bashing/cheering threads, because being a Kerry-basher myself, I still felt somehow rather close to many of the Kerry-cheers. This was a thought experiment for me, that I just posted for others to try.

And you are right, it is probably because my thought processes have no particular direction that I can do that.

End of story.

[Imagevision]

88. With Kerry timing is key!... {I believe}

Look how long he held out announcing Edwards to join him.

[bush_is_wacko]

89. It is really hard for me to speak to the other side...

I am an optimist! Always have been, but here goes.

Kerry should step up to the plate and announce that he is contesting this election. The media might listen to him. He should reveal the information he has, at least in part, to let those who voted for him know he is on top of it.

I'm sorry, this is a lousy job. I really don't feel stepping forward accomplishes the ultimate goal, and I really think JK is admirable for realizing it is not sufficient just to get him into office. The system must change.

[Griffy]

90. I think we should focus on what WE can do... this election isnt over..

though I'm well aware that bush is heavy favorite to win this round, we are not out of the game. There will be time after the 20th to regroup.. discuss what Kerry did or didnt do(rather than speculate) and various pros and cons of other parties and candidates. I hope you all can make it to DC on the 6th.