If you could reform elections

[insane_cratic_gal]

What methods would you impose?

What or any machines do you trust?

What would need to happen for that trust to be won?

I'm asking because eventually we are going to have to insist upon these things.

HAVA was violated in so many ways in OH and other states.

I feel passionately while the fight isn't over in OH we need to keep election reform in the back of our minds.

I think the Key to the reform is this man (92 pages but browse at will)
http://www.itl.nist.gov/lab/specpubs/500-158.htm

It's a bit outdated, bring written in 1988? (i think) but most of it is still relevant today's issues.

[gulogulo]

1. Here is a method:

1. No machines. No matter how "secure" the computerized voting method is on paper, there will always be suspicions of fraud.

2. Paper ballots - one per race. One for presidential candidates. One for Senate. One for House. One for judge. One for proposition #N. Etc.

3. The ballots are marked by pen by the voter - an X in the relevant box. One X per ballot. It has to say in big friendly letters on the ballot that you have to put ONLY one X on the ballot. You put more than one it is disqualified.

4. The ballots are put in an envelope and handed to election worker who makes sure there is only one envelope and drops it into a collection box.

5. After the election the collection box in each precinct is taken into a counting room, under supervision of watchers from every candidate on the ballot. There it is counted by opening each envelope separately, taking out the ballots, making sure there is only one ballot per race in the envelope and announcing what each ballot is. Each watcher can keep track of the totals personally, but the total is kept updated on a board in the room.

6. The counting may take a few hours. That's ok - even if it takes a day or two, it is better than the circus happening after every election lately.

7. After counting the results are phoned in to SOS who tallies them and publishes them, totals and per precinct. Every watcher can look at the results and make sure their precinct's totals are published correctly.

8. The ballots after counting are put back in the collection box, sealed with tamper-proof seals and impounded in case a recount is called for.

Feel free to shoot holes in the above election procedure.

(edit: typos)

[insane_cratic_gal]

3. One thing I would like to see

Off-site storage facility should be guarded around the clock.

Camera should be in place in the facility to ensure no tampering happens.

Paper ballots, are prone to stuffing. It's just from what I read, However the place should be rigged with cameras to ensure no votes are replaced with stuffed ballots or pre-made ballots.

They should be audited,and locked down. These forms should vary from year to year (as does money to ensure fraud does not exist, with copying or counterfeit bills)

two detachable numbers should exist. Perhaps one to staple to the vote .. one for the voters to carry off.

does that make sense? lol

[meganmonkey]

2. Paper and Pen, with people counting the votes

NO MACHINES!!! National standards of paper and pen to vote, but local control of the process - count the ballots at each precinct, with witnesses/counters from the 2 major parties and at least one to represent the 'third' parties. The counting should be open to the public to observe, and the results posted on the door.

[hobbit709]

4. I prefer paper ballots

but if machines are used I Want.
1. Stand alone terminals at the precinct
2. Open source code
3. open source code
4. open source code
5. votes counted at precinct, then reported to higher level
6. ballots safe and secure at all times.

[Darkhawk32]

5. Well, I would have a complete and total overhaul of the system....

Starting with having no machines and ALL hand counting.

Plus, having a simplified and easily verifiable registration process.

Someday I'll fully expose my ideas.

[insane_cratic_gal]

6. Roy Saltman wrote me back

I could use some help formulating questions regarding the present 2004 election. An affidavit link in regards to Hockings triad, change in equipment.

The written testimony of Clint would be wonderful to put before him.

If I can borrown Tia's charts and graphs as devation from the polling to the actual results.

and Anything else you can think of that must be addressed. See above articles and posts to see Who Ray is.

And would bloggers be willing to give this Man his proper dues should be willing to give his opinion?

To: Edited out for privacy.
Sent: Monday, December 20, 2004 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: voting


I will be pleased to answer questions about my 1988. I would like to know who you are and what is your interest? What will you do with the information I provide?
Roy G. Saltman

[insane_cratic_gal]

7. Little bit more about him

Since retiring from NIST in 1996, he has consulted for the Inter-American Development Bank, the International Foundation for Election Systems, the Smithsonian Institution, and the National Science Foundation. In 2001, he contributed to the work of the National Commission on Federal Election Reform, the Caltech/MIT Voting Technology Project, and the Constitution Project of Georgetown Law School. His brief for the American Civil Liberties Union in 2003 to delay the California recall election was cited in the supporting decision of the 3-judge panel of the US Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit. He has testified to a special committee of the State of Maryland and to the US House of Representatives Committee on Science. He is writing a book on the history, politics and technology of the voting process to be published in 2005.

[bemis12]

8. And a way to prove identity

So we'd know the voters were real and qualified voters.

[Beth in VT]

9. I think we should consider/study Oregon's sytem

of voting by mail - it seems it would encourage broader participation and also address verification.

I seem to remember someone from Canada posting that they use all paper ballots and the votes are counted within about 4 days.

The job of counting votes shouldn't be outsourced to private companies - things like tax collection and benefits administration aren't, why should this?

[dewaldd]

11. no way--too easy to screw with absentee ballots

[dewaldd]

12. Canada hand counts its elections in 4 HOURS, not 4 days

[Beth in VT]

13. I got the "4" part right - thanks dewaldd!

[dewaldd]

10. Paper ballots publicly hand counted on election night in the polling place

[Lil]

14. Non partisan election officicals throughout +paper ballots as descrilbed

above. Possibly get help from countries who do this.

I am in Australia now and went to vote with my daughter who is a dual US/AU citizen. The process was beautiful in its simplicity.

In addition, in AU everyone is required to register and vote or be fined $400. Something like this would eliminate all the games around registration problems.

[Beth in VT]

15. Yes - ethics standards that prohibit conflicts of interest.

[MadScientist]

19. Nonpartisan?

Nonpartisan?
No such thing. Somebody who has never voted?
Cannot be defined.
Unless you want somebody who just does not care!

Maybe you meant: Not a party apparatchik like Blackwell.
Very hard to legislate these things.

[Lil]

25. You're right about that. More accurately: not "elected" to an elections...

. . office as part of a political party.

[gulogulo]

16. "Something like this would eliminate all the games..."

and would also eliminate my right to vote and turn it into an obligation. No thanks.

[Lil]

27. OTOH - you could opt to pay the fine. Not saying that's the way. . .

. . .to go, but seeing how they do it in AU helped me to see some other solutions to our problems.

Over the past 45 years I've spent hundreds of hours in voter registration drives of one sort or other - essentially trying to convince people it is their responsibility to help run the democracy.

In AU - there is door to door canvasing to make sure you are registered and that's that. Then you vote quickly, in precincts with 50+ cardboard voting booths. In and out in a matter of minutes even with hundreds voting.

Just a thought especially with all the registration & voter suppression in the US.

[gulogulo]

28. the fine makes it an obligation, not a right.

Having a right implies an ability not to exercise that right. What you advocate would take away my right to vote. No thanks.

[Higans]

35. Wake up. Right now, you have no right to vote.

[gulogulo]

36. and if Lil had his way

I'd never have a right to vote. It would become an obligation instead.

[Lil]

43. The "obligation" to vote and participate. . .

. . .in this experimental form of government seems a very small price for me to pay. On MY list of obligations, I would gladly put it at the top. So be it. :-)

[gulogulo]

45. you may be willing to give up your rights

for the sake of efficiency. I am not.

[Lil]

51. I am wondering if you can describe how you arrived at the idea that

paying for a privilage is within ones "rights" to pay or not pay.

[gulogulo]

52. Maybe if you rephrase your question so it is comprehensible...

I will be able to answer.

[Lil]

55. I've heard very few speak of their right "not to vote."

I just wondered how you arrived at the the idea that we have a RIGHT not to vote - that we have a RIGHT not to participate and be responsible for things our government does.

[gulogulo]

56. It is simple

if you have a "right" to vote, you are free to exercise it - or NOT to exercise it. If you do NOT have a right NOT to exercise it, that is not a right. That is an obligation. Having a "right" implies freedom to use it or not to use it. You would take away that freedom. Thus you would eliminate the right.

[Beth in VT]

17. No harm in dreaming ...

While we're at it we need instant runoff voting.

Also, if machines must be used, recounts should be done by hand and all ballots for which voter intent is clear - even if overlooked or otherwise omitted initially - should be included.

[ginnyinWI]

18. it would be fairly simple

just go to paper ballots. Wisconsin has all-optically scanned paper ballots. Our exit polls matched our vote tallies.

You can "trust" the machines that tabulate the paper ballots, because if you have any problems, you have the paper ballots right there to re-count. Our ballots are paper, and you have to complete an arrow with a black marker to vote for your candidate. What could be easier.

[Fly by night]

22. We use optically scanned ballots in TN too but can't recount them ....

without a court order, not even a manual recount of randomly selected precincts for "quality control" purposes. (Our county just bought ES$S opti-scan equipment, no one locally knows much about it and yet even my local election commission staff cannot recount paper ballots without a court order.)

That "no manual recount" prohibition is high on my list of things to change about how we do the "people's bidness" here in Tennessee when it comes to elections in the future.

One sign at our second Gathering To Save Our Democracy rally this Sunday:

TENNESSEE: NOT A RED OR A BLUE STATE--WE'RE AN ORANGE STATE

(a reference to the Ukraine, not just our state university football team).

[Beth in VT]

23. In Vermont we have all paper ballots, no touch-screen machines

I used to trust the optical scan machines as you do but in this election our exit polls were skewed against vote totals.

If there is fraud in the tabulation and the margin is wide enough not to trigger a recount it could go undetected.

I can trust machines to work accurately but I don't trust secretive private companies controlled by ardent partisans to do this job.

[Fly by night]

20. Paper ballots & have high school honor societies count the votes

I love the safety of the paper ballots and the symbolism of having 16 and 17 year olds (too young to vote themselves yet) doing the counting. They're certainly smart enough, there are enough high schools so the numbers of ballots per school wouldn't be outrageous and it would help mobilize the students to become involved in the democratic process when they do turn 18. Besides, I trust teenagers more than I do politicians, bureaucrats or paperless computers these days.

BTW, I would immediately disassemble the machines and send the scrap medal to Iraq so our Tennessee soldiers can "up-armor" their vehicles with it. I can't think of a more fitting use for that junk anyway.

[procinderella]

21. a voter's dream ballot

I think, unfortunately, machines are hear to stay.

But they should work like an double-edged-sword ATM machine. After you use the touch screen, you get a printed copy that says who you vote for. You push the printed copy through a slot. It verifies with a beep that it matches your touch screen. You hit "vote." Then a second paper receipt prints out (nonscannable) that you can take home if needed for future use.

We then are left with a touch screen electronic count. A mandatory backup paper count that has been reinserted into the machine but would be automatically scanned separately the day after the election by a different vote tabulator company. We'd have to wait a day extra. But who cares? We'd have both an electronic and paper trail. And we'd have our own receipts if we run into any trouble

[Higans]

37. what about vote buying?

that is the only problem with a take home recipt. Still better then a vapor vote though. Having to buy all thouse votes....... some one is gonna squeal. maby it's not such a bad idea.

[GreenPartyVoter]

24. See my site for more on that

http://timeforachange.bluelemur.com/electionreform.htm

[insane_cratic_gal]

26. I agree paper ballots

Again people are correct in pointing out the ban on machines is not something our congress is going to adhere to. Nor would the lobbyist allow it.

SO if they are to keep the machines what conditions do we the people need to half in place?

They have source code on file with every SOS. SOS and the District Attorney (i believe it's the da ? I know one other legal aspect has access to it) have access to that source code. In the case of Blackwell, or Roadblock it does it no good.

No one affiliated with any campaign should be allowed to have such power over and election.

I'm convinced we can not back down about the machines (I feel like I'm stuck in a bad terminator movie! Arnold!) We must find some comprehensive way for Federal government to review that source code with Independent examiners. They should be accessible to examiners for recounts, and evaluations! Poll books are, cards are, so should anything else that handles our votes!.

Perhaps mock labs for all voting equipment be studied and tested. It amazes me even further why Tally machines are not versatile enough to read a examine a hole in a piece of paper. Or perhaps we need a spring lock mechanism that makes a hole the size of a paper Punch.

Hell lets just go for paper punchers! lol It leaves no visible hanging piece of paper, it guts through it!.

I more then likely suspect we are going to have to march our asses to congress and petition for the reform ourselves. Our votes are not sold the highest bidder! Or the pocket-stuffer Lobbyist on Capital Hill.! No one pertaining to any election concerning the people shall bid for their company. It must be examined impartially to find what systems works.

[RevCheesehead]

29. Hand-counted Paper Ballots marked in Crayon.

Burnt Sienna is one of my favorites.

on edit:
Crayon really is a good idea! Once the ballot is counted, it should be pressed with an iron, and the melted crayon would show you that your vote had been counted.

Upon re-count, if you find ballots that have not been sealed, well...

I guess there are a few bugs to be worked out.

[insane_cratic_gal]

30. LOL

You know of course, that would infuriate all of us blue states, in turn we'd have to insist upon midnight blue.

[procinderella]

48. I love the sealed idea!

Seal it wax. Love it!

And/or: What about the encryption they use in money? Any use for it here?

[ClassWarrior]

31. Here we go...

Paper and pen. Hand counted. Hand recounted.

Abolish the Electoral College.

Uniform standards across the nation, national holiday for election day, same open and close times, regardless of time zone.

Instant runoff voting.

NGU.

[suston96]

32. No machines

Use your imagination for the rest.

And remember what Stalin said:

Doesn't matter what the voters do. What the vote counters do is what matters.

Paper ballots and have kindergarten children count the votes.

[insane_cratic_gal]

33. I think I see a theme here

RevCheesehead insisted upon crayon. and now Kindergarteners count the vote.

It's true, my daughters Kindergarten class voted with much more ease then we do in the whole history of our elections.

If they can figure it out why can't people in congress? :toast:

[Higans]

34. Paper ballots only. Counted infront of security cameras.

Ban the Vapor Vote. What is a Vapor vote any way? what you touch a funky looking computer, and suddenly your vote is stored on a memory card? can you prove it? Can the Poll workers prove it? Can any one prove it?

[Mistwell]

38. Independant Election Committee

I would create an independant election committee similar to what they have in Australia. That committee would set uniform rules for the entire US, for all elections. The rules would cover exactly what kind of ballots are acceptable, who can vote (IE whether or not felons are permitted to vote, people who are voting outside of their county, people who move states, etc...) how they shall be counted, how to decide unclear ballots, and whether a recount is warranted or not. Also, absentee ballots would be tracked against non-absentee voting to make sure nobody is double voting due to a residence move. All ballots would have a paper trail. If an electronic (with paper trail) system can be found that is safe, then use that. But, if we cannot find a way to electronically vote that is at least as safe as paper-only balloting (which also is not fraud-proof by the way), then we should go with the method least likely to result in fraud.

[pointsoflight]

39. The first thing I want is a constitutional amendment...

...that explicitly states that all adult citizens have the right to vote. One of the major reasons we don't have better election laws is because federal courts do not have any jurisdiction in protecting the rights of individual voters. Add an amendment to the constitution, and local election officials will make sweeping changes to protect themselves.

The second thing I want is the running of elections taken out of the hands of partisan politicians. It is a huge conflict of interest for partisan SoS's to have so much influence on how things are run.

Then we need to address the specifics as enumerated in this thread.

[ClassWarrior]

44. Excellent.

NGU.

[SnoopDog]

40. Sequential paper ballots...

Paper ballots with precinct and unique sequence number printed on each ballot.

You mark the ballot, place the ballot in a 'verifier machine' to preclude under/over ballots. You would have a 'non of the above choice' for all candidates. The validator machine will insure the ballot. If 'spoiled', the voter would be given a new ballot - the spoiled ballot properly marked and tabulated as spoiled.

Then, humans count the vote and a machine count the vote. Its called dual audit.

I like the idea of one poster - registering to vote is mandatory and to be done by officials (no get out the vote scammers). You don't have to vote if you don't or can't.

Each vote should be treated as a '$ million dollar' bill.

[RevCheesehead]

41. To begin with, I'd like a 3-day National Primary.

(By the time these guys get to Wisconsin, many of the candidates have dropped out. This last year, we moved our primary from April to February, and even THEN (!) Dean and Clark were gone!)


Campaign Finance Reform and Campaign Rules
1. Corporate campaign donations will be eliminated. Every last one of them.

2. a. The fairness doctrine will be reinstated. Equal time will apply to the top 4 candidates.
b. All Campaign commercials are to be paid for in full by the campaign, and will NOT be permitted to be shown on TV news, or news-magazine formats.
c. In addition, any media personality who uses the media to campaign, or to ridicule the opposition, would immediately be in violation of the fairness doctrine.

3. Democratic and Republican conventions will be held within one week of each other. The opponent(s) will refrain from media exposure during the other's convention. During these conventions, no new campaign ads will be permitted to air.

4. The incumbent president will maintain regular office hours during the campaign. He/she is to be "on the clock" at a minimum of 2 days a week. (It's "hard work." Deal with it, or you don't deserve the job.)

5. Debates will be in classical high-school format, moderated by a forensics teacher. Candidates will either choose to particiapate, or not. There will be no negotiating on setting and format. All candidates will be checked for wires, hearing devices, and plastic explosives.

Voter Bill of Rights
1. Presidential elections will be a federal holiday. All people will be given time off of work to vote, w/no penalty (even if paid hourly).

2. Same-day registration will be permitted across the country. Open party, no registration of party affiliation.

3. Precincts will be allocated a voting booth in a % to the number of eligible voters across the country. In addition, precincts which have had numerous problems of disenfranchisement will be monitored by a designated UN delegate.

4. a. All officials in the board of elections will be forbidden to take a leadership position in any candidate's campaign. When you agree to the job, you agree to sacrifice your partisanship publically.
b. The above rule will be rigorously enforced in regards to brothers or other family members of candidates.

5. a. All polls will remain open until every last person in attendance is allowed to vote.
b. Exit polls will be done by the Canadians, but the information will not be released until the last poll closes in Alaska or Hawaii. All exit poll data will be released in full at that time.
c. The media may make use of independent sources for exit polls, but will NOT be permitted to project a "winner" of ANY state until all polls have closed, nation-wide. Patience is a virtue.

6. People in the hospital or needed at work will be permitted to vote.

7. Ex-felons who have served their time will be permitted to vote.

[procinderella]

49. VOTER BILL OF RIGHTS

Really good. Keep it simple. Like the Ten Commandments

[shiina]

42. A few ideas...

Paper ballot marked with a stamp.
Proportional.
No electoral college.
National standards : for ballot-handling, counting, number of booths or machines per registered voter, etc.
Constitutional right to vote.
Same-day registration.
Publicly funded campaigns.
Air-time for all candidates.
Open debates.
Public, un"adjusted" exit polls to protect against fraud.
Every registered voter gets a letter explaining :
*where they should vote
*how to vote
*their rights
*what to do if something goes wrong
*what's on the ballot, etc.
A limit to the number of provisions allowed on the ballot.
Full transparency.
A government body to take calls from citizens with complaints and act on them immediately.
Right to vote for felons.
Enforcement of law that employers must give employees time off from work to vote.
Clear procedures for fraud charges.
etc, etc, etc...
There are lots of things that could be/needs to be changed. The system now is a total mess.

[IndyPriest]

46. 1. Constitutional Ammendment. 2. Paper Ballots. 3. Pens...

4. Public counting. 5. Public reporting. 6. Firing squad for anyone who fucks with a simple, clear, verifiable system. - OK, thanks for letting me rant.

[joevoter]

47. reform that our little group in Ashland Or is working on

Reform that our little group in Ashland Or is working on...

http://www.fugw.org/electionreform.pdf

[tinrobot]

50. The more hands counting, the more eyes watching

I agree with a lot of the above stuff regarding paper ballots.

One thing to add to the argument for paper ballots is that it takes a LOT of people to count the votes with paper ballots.

A lot of people counting is a GOOD THING!

A lot of people means that no one person has the power to tamper with more than a few votes. Multiple people counting also means that there are more witnesses and potential whistlelowers should tampering occur.

[proudbluestater]

53. Paper ballots mailed in or hand delivered over a 2-week period

counting by reps. from each party with reps. from each party observing and NO power to any secretary of state. none.

[k8conant]

54. Paper ballots -- counted by humans

After each precinct counts they can be listed on the county tally which is then sent to the state.

[alittlelark]

57. 1 machine - 2 reciepts, 1 cyber-report

1- cyber-report.
1- printed reciept on reel, or placed in ballot box (w/initials).
1- printed reciept that goes home w/you.