It’s Not the Paper Ballots – it’s the HAND COUNTING that’s Important.

[Junkdrawer]

In this election, almost exclusively, machines counted the vote. Now the dangers of the touchscreen machines have been analyzed ad nauseum. But optical scan and punchcard ballots are still the predominant way of voting in this country. And both are counted on election night by machines, machines that are run by custom, proprietary (read secret) software provided by private companies. Private companies whose owners donate almost exclusively to the Republican Party.

Well, you might say, at least optical scan and punchcard ballots provide a paper trail. But ask yourself: “When are these paper trails used?” 99.9% of the time, they are only used if the election is within 0.5% - the equivalent of a coin falling upright on its edge. So if the machines were rigged, and rigged to give the desired candidate a decisive edge, the riggers would almost never get caught.

The Ohio recount was one of the first opportunities to check the honesty of these machines. But 34 days passed between the election and the certification of the election. And the recount didn’t start until eight days after that. And during this time, ballots were stored in various insecure locations – store rooms, closets, sometimes locked, sometimes unlocked, in buildings that were sometimes locked and sometimes unlocked. Now in this country, we have a secret ballot and that’s a good thing. Only you and your conscience, assuming you still have one, should be in that voting booth. But a secret ballot has an inherent danger – ballots are ridiculously easy to counterfeit. And the various goings on in Ohio, especially in Greene County, have many of us suspecting that is indeed what has happened.

No, if you want an honest count, an honest hand count, your only shot is election night. And that is why democracies all over the world still use paper ballots, hand counted in front of witnesses on election night. It can be done. Canada recently had an election and most results were reported within a few hours of the close of polls. And they use paper ballots hand counted in front of "scrutineers" from each party. And you know what? I've never heard of a peep of "fraud" coming out of that election.

[Eric J in MN]

1. I agree. Hand-count the ballots in the first place on Election night,

in front of members of each party and the media and the public.

[phillipw]

28. Checking voter logs against "official votes" is where much fraud found

[corbett]

2. Canada Exceeds Our Standards Yet Again

That was a superb piece! Thanx!

[Brundle_Fly]

23. Canada also

doesnt have a single ballot that encompasses the entire election, the main race has its own ballot. smaller races are put on seperate ballots...which makes recounts much easier.

[KoKo]

3. Problem with "paper" ballots is that our States have so many varying

"Propostions/Amendments"...plus so many different National and State races when we vote. Europeans look askance at our system because they still use "paper" but what get's ignored is that we aren't just voting for President/VP and Governor or Senators and House Reps in our vote...in the STATES...we are voting for individual propostions and candidates...like "State Secretary of Agrigulture/Education...etc. etc...makes the ballot very complicated when won goes down the ballot to the State Senators/Reps and Judges and what not that are up to our "individual States" to vote on locally.

Maybe a solution would be to split the Presidential Race off from the Local State Races?

I understand what you say "Junkdrawer" and agree...but the argument I just proposed is what I was told when I said to a State Official: Why can we just do it like the Europeans and Canadians do?

Maybe I'm not familiar enough with the ballots in these other areas and the person who told me what I posted was as clueless...but until I see that Canadian Provinces and European city states have such a "simple ballot" I will stand by what I was told. :shrug: It could very well be wrong info, though.

[Junkdrawer]

8. Why not have these Propositions settled in secondary elections?

Why pack so much into a single day?

[harmonyguy]

18. A simple ballot in Canada

I can't speak for all provinces but in the two I have been involved with, the ballot is VERY simple, even if multiple races are to be voted on, on the same election day.

One, and one only, race per ballot paper,
Each race (whether a proposition or election) is on a different coloured sheet of ballot paper.

I recall one election day that involved about 8-10 different races. It was quite a wad of paper, BUT there was no confusion about where to put your mark, nor about for whom or what you were voting.

Mind you, we don't typically vote for our sheriff or dog-catcher either. :eyes:

HG (a Canadian vote-counter)

[CantGetFooledAgain]

4. It's an important point...

...many posters on here seem to be convinced that the punch cards and optiscan ballots that are eventually made available for recounting are 100% the genuine article, the same ones used by voters on election day to record their votes.

But I'm not at all convinced of this. All you would need for a virtually undetectable scam is to swap out the real ballots for the fake ones that validate your "results". Without doing this, you are vulnerable to discovery. But if you can pull off a swap, or a related technique (adding ballots, destroying ballots...) you really could execute the "perfect crime". Especially if after the fact, the ballots themselves can't be forensically examined.

All you need is to know the right people and have enough time. Even easier in the case of punch cards as these can be punched by machine.

[Junkdrawer]

9. It's been suggested (by me among others) that the Ohio ballots...

be examined for a lack of different fingerprints. But I can just hear the screams of "violating the sanctity of the Secret Ballot" now...

[roseBudd]

29. Also I believe ballots that are punched by a card punch machine

would differ from stylus punched ballots. Doug Jones of the University of Iowa would probably know the answer to that, as he mentions how one can determine with a 10x loupe whether a ballot is punched with a stylus vs. a papar clip for instance when examining hanging chads.

[weeve]

21. like the Election Day photo ...

... of the red pickup truck with the Bush/Cheney sticker in the window, which was being loaded with boxes of ballots. Anyone else remember that one ?

[bluedeminredstate]

5. Amen!!

Canada counts their ballots in a matter of hours - that beats the US networks by several hours. It's also a hell of a lot cheaper to use paper ballots than to buy machines for huge cities and counties, not to mention the constant patches, upgrades, fixes, and servicing, etc.
Then there's the whole issue of hauling all these machines around to the precincts - something that went terribly wrong in Franklin county Ohio. I could keep going, but you get the idea - we've made voting a huge pain in the ass to the states, counties, cities and towns that run the elections. That's not even considering the potential for partisan election workers, Secretaries of State and the voting machine techs to screw around with the fairness of the outcome.

I don't see what all the fuss is when paper ballots are suggested as a method. It works quite well in Canada and other countries - are we too dumb to work a pencil and a sheet of paper?
:shrug:

[SariesNightly]

6. My name is Diebold..

.. and i protest!!

This is outrageous, I am made with millions of dollars in investment, so are my fellow oversized calculators, how dare you interfere with our God given right to make money off the counting process, how dare you turn this into a free of charge activity, hand counting is crazy talk!!

Crazy I say, crazy! :)

[oscar111]

7. WOW. you have convinced me.

superb post.

[mirrera]

10. Paper and pencil yee ha!!

With kids counting!!!

[New Earth]

11. wtf?

[mirrera]

13. I have been partying

Hi, was that "wtf" for me? I just am so fed up with this unbelievable mess that we are in with machines counting our votes... Too many cosmos... I want paper ballots. Sorry if my post was out of place.

[New Earth]

14. i think it was the 'kids counting' that threw me off

unless you mean, they'd be nonpartisan??? hehehehe

[mirrera]

15. Kids might be more honest

I think we have pretty much proven that grown-ups cheat. We keep telling our kids that their actions have consequences, it would be cool to say " you count our votes, we cheat!"

[Higans]

19. Don't vote in pencil, rember how we got in this mess.

[Junkdrawer]

12. Seriously, if Diebold and others wanted to make a business of...

election machines, they should have pushed for more transparent standards from Day One. As it is, the "standards" they have to meet (at least what we've seen of them) are either non-existent, irrelevant, or ridiculously easy.

Secret software judged by secret standards. Like we should just trust them. Ah, industry self-regulation.

[harmonyguy]

16. A free of charge activity?

Dear Diebold,
It appears that you are unaware that the counting process is an integral part of true democracy, and democracy extracts a very high price on the individual.

The price of freedom is responsibility - responsibility to vote thoughtfully, the responsibility to count accurately, the responsibility to speak out against injustice, the responsibility to respect all peoples, the responsibility to speak out for those that cannot, just to name a few.

If any individual allows their responsibilities to fall to the side, then others (corporations) will take advantage of the opportunity and will extract their price from the individual.

The integrity of elections has no activity that is free of charge - the only question is are we willing to pay the price?

HG
(a Canadian vote-counter)

[Junkdrawer]

17. Well put. Let others "take care" of things and you're sure to be taken...

:evilgrin:

[starmaker]

20. its always been in the counting

not to say that voting methods can be problematic
and methods to make voting difficult are used.

paper ballots are the way
keynote speaker at 12/12 assembly in raleigh
www.chuckherrin.com a rep ethical hacker

each state has its own process and in nc a special committe has been established
to make recomendations this spring
anyone in nc check www.ncvoter.net to see how to help

i don't think the federal gov't should run state elections
yet i think the fed out to demand a verifiable vote
and insure democracy ,just not this gov't

looking forward to walking to the capital with many others on the 6th
hope to see a lot of u there
www.51capitalmarch.com

merry christmas

[weeve]

22. Simplicity itself

Of course it would work ... of course it would be more accurate.. that's why the powers that be are so against it. They were against motor voter , against making Election day a holiday . They know damned well that the more people that vote, the sooner they'll risk being thrown out on their ass. So they've worked long and hard ensuring that they control the tabulation of the votes. And look what's happened ... one of the most unpopular/reviled of all Presidents ... with an abominable record ... gets put back in again via tabulation fraud. And they have the cajones to call it a "mandate" !
The coup has occurred , and it's looking mighty permenant. And because the vast majority of Americans seem not to care what the Corporate Media spoonfeeds them ... where's the problem ? Problem ?
How do we wake these Pod People up ???

[Eric J in MN]

24. I nominated this thread for the homepage (nt)

nt

[dandrhesse]

25. could someone please explain for me

There seem to be lots of knowledgeable people on this thread, so I have a question for you.

My husband and I were ward leaders for Kerry, in our ward we were responsible for over 450 contacts. On election day my dad went to vote at 10:00 am and was recorded as voter number 794 on the voter rolls.

According to the poll workers they had over 300 absentee ballots as well.

The total for the precinct was only 1750!? With Kerry getting 927 votes. That is 168 votes less than the precinct recorded for the Gore/Bush race?! And means that between 10:00 am and the polls closing which was at 8pm only another 656 people voted or an average of 65 voters an hour versus the 264 per hour average of the first 3 hours?

My question is this, how does the counting actually take place? Does it vary by ward/city/county?

Because if my dad knew what his number was then wouldn't the poll workers know if the number didn't match their count on the voter rolls when the totals are printed in the newspaper?

Could it be rigged in such a way that no poll worker would know what was happening or does it require collusion of at least one poll worker?

[Junkdrawer]

26. J. Ken "Katherine" Blackwell has been illegally hiding the poll books..

and we suspect many shenanigans have gone on just as you allude to.

But to answer your question better, let me know what was your voting method? Punchcard, touchscreen, or OptiScan???

[dandrhesse]

30. marksense optical scan

the entire county is Marksense optical scan equipment.

Here is the procedure from the voter's perspective which is all I know about first hand. You give your name and they look you up on the rolls. They issue a slip of paper with the "number" voter you are for the day at that location and you are handed a ballot. You mark your ballot in a "booth" it is the type where you connect the two parts of a broken arrow with a black ink marking pen and make it a complete arrow. Then you feel the ballot into the scan machine, get this, face up, with your vote choices in clear view of the machine monitor! They say they don't look but yeah right, anyhow there is opportunity for them to see how many votes which candidate is receiving if they chose to do so.

Then you leave. oh, one other minor point. you hand your slip with the voter number to the person overseeing the scanning machine.

Thanks for any information, I appreciate it.

[Junkdrawer]

32. Marksense is from Advanced Voting Solutions, a relatively small player...

Their founder, a Howard T. Van Pelt, was involved in the founding of Global Elections Systems which was later sold to the infamous Diebold.

More info here:

http://clients.enfocom.com/avs/company.html

Many of their products use wireless technology, so who knows how secure they are.

[Junkdrawer]

27. .

[dandrhesse]

31. as you can see I'm new to this,

does that notation mean that you read my reply and will get back to me? If not what does it mean? sorry to be so uninformed but questions are the only way to knowledge.

[Junkdrawer]

33. Your answer is above ( the "." was a lazy kick)...

:kick:

[lonestarnot]

34. Absolutely! What COUNTS is the COUNT BY HAND IN OHIO!

:-)