The lawyer on KO is NOT the lawyer who filed the motions today

[WilliamPitt]

Repeat, NOT the same lawyer.

The fact is there are a lot of people in orbit around Kerry, and not all of them think this fraud stuff is real.

But Kerry had a lawyer join this case, so he obviously believes something is there to be investigated and exposed.

Deep breaths, all. There is no 'campaign' anymore, per se, so there is no message management.

Deep breaths. The judge will hopefully say yes to the motions, and we can depose these guys under oath while performing forensic examinations on the ballots and the machines.

Thorazine. Swear to god. Big spray can. Ssssssssssss...

Edit to add an important point: Anyone can 'speak' for Kerry/Edwards now. But only lawyers working directly for Kerry/Edwards can file motions in Federal court. See the difference?

[ohioliberal]

1. I like what you say

you say it like it is. I thank you for pointing out all the issues. You give me more hope!

[Chimpanzee]

2. He seems to think he's speaking for Kerry/Edwards

Is this lawyer full of shit or not?

[WilliamPitt]

7. Anyone can 'speak' for Kerry/Edwards now

But only lawyers working directly for Kery/Edwards can file motions in Federal court. See the difference?

[Chimpanzee]

17. I see only if you are telling me that this lawyer is not

working directly for Kerry/Edwards. Do you know this to be true?

[SueZhope]

30. what seems odd

is that KO is getting statements from lawyers who have possible been fired?
was he fired? :wtf:

[lonestarnot]

50. yes

[saracat]

49. This is a lame argument Will. I agree about the motions but even as an

ordinary Senator, Kerry has a press staff. As does Edwards, even now. WTF are they doing? They still have an obligation to "message control"if the "message" is about them to their supporters. Or do you think KO deliberately picked a negative interview? I think a retraction or clarification is called for. Not "anyone" can speak for Kerry. That is ridiculous. If it were, we could be very quick to tell him what to think! LOL!

[senseandsensibility]

77. Very perceptive, saracat!

I agree. So what do you think is going on? I'm not embarrassed to admit I'm lost!:shrug:

[pleiku52cab]

55. KO calls him the 'lead lawyer on the ground in Ohio'.

[KoKo]

70. So...Is Kerry "speaking out one side of the mouth and not the other...or

are both "taking turns."

You are saying the Lawyer, Hoffmeyer, who spoke to KO is not speaking for Kerry (he's a Kerry lawyer...but speaks "off the cuff" without Kerry's okay??) and the REAL Kerry Lawyers are the ones "On the Case" who aren't speaking to Oldberman or anyone? :crazy:

[SueZhope]

16. Good question

Does any one know about the lawyer who spoke to KO?
How involved has he been?

[Terre]

24. This is the thing I don't understand

Why is Hoffheimer making statements regarding the motions filed if he's not "technically" part of it, or is he in any way? And why would he feel the need to "clarify" his initial remarks?

I don't get it.

[GetTheRightVote]

3. Praying for a big judicial YES !!!

I'm behind you Will, thanks for the comfort.

:)

[k8conant]

4. Thanks for verifying the duck lineup n/t

[pleiku52cab]

5. Get that bastard Blackwell under oath

Would like to see nothing better. Let him lie then get caught for perjury.

[johnaries]

6. Thanks, Will! Ever feel like a Den Mother?

Everyone repeat after me, omi padme moni ommmm....

[New Earth]

8. HOFFMEIER SHOULD BE FIRED

@#&*#^*!@%%@&8

[WebeBlue]

9. Whewww, relief is on the way ... Thanks Will ... n/t

[TexasChick]

10. ROFL!! Okay, Will, I'll take some deep breaths. n/t

[GetTheRightVote]

Yes, Yes, Blackwell, Perjury, Yes, Yes, this is a good plan

:bounce:

[Sandy_0]

11. This is very confusing.

Will are you gonna stay on this thread. We need your sanity right now.

[GetTheRightVote]

57. You have a post without a number, weird ...

[Vektor]

12. Leave it to William.... :-)

Thanks for coming in to maintain some sense of order. It is indeed a madhouse! I think that lawyer done pissed a lot of people off.
:mad:

[elizm]

19. LOL...I needed the laugh!

Thanks Vektor!

[Vektor]

73. You are always welcome...

I always try to spread a little laughter in times of anguish.

I call it "joking to cope so I don't kill."

:-)

[Miami Liberal]

13. I hope this calms the hysterics

flying around here, sheesh.

[bush_is_wacko]

14. I'm feeling pretty up and down about all this stuff myself

but KO has always seemed a little underhanded to me. He is MSM but it seems like a lot of DUers trust him.

[Chimpanzee]

23. He's on my shit list now!

[Firespirit]

36. Glad I didn't put my chips on a media figure

The opening of that blog... :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

NOBODY is gonna talk that way about Kerry without being called on it. I don't care about the lawyer's remarks, he didn't file and he isn't the "big guy" anymore on the team anyway.... McTigue is. (Sour grapes? Disgruntled lawyer?) But that other crap actually did raise my blood pressure. Coldblooded manipulation of his FRIENDS is not Kerry's M.O. and isn't the Senator I got to know (sorta) over the year.

NO SIR, Kerry is not taking us for a ride! Kerry has nothing to gain from manipulating us! But how about a MSM persona whose show is in a RATINGS BATTLE? Hmmmm...... Projection perhaps?

That's two strikes, Keith. You know what happens on the third.

[bush_is_wacko]

59. Also glad to see someone else her does not worship the man!

I have never given him a second thought. His paycheck is still signed by MSM! He even called himself a disgruntled employee to try and detract from what Curtis has said and done. Companies don't have parties for disgruntled employees. They fire them and walk them out of their secured doors after they take thier passcards from them. I have witnessed enough disgruntled employees being fired to know that much is true!

[Vektor]

76. I'm glad...

That Olbermann is at least lending SOME coverge...
..but he does have a tendency to do a lot of backpedaling in order to stay in good with the MSM...he's probably doing what he can with his hands tied...

...but it still sucks that he won't go after it full throttle.

I have no doubt that if he went balls out with this story, MSNBC would can him.

In other words...I have mixed feelings about him.
:shrug:

[Chimpanzee]

80. Especially computer people

My former company would walk you outside and practically throw you down on the sidewalk. One guy had been taken to work and dropped off by his wife so he didn't have a car - they drove him to McDonalds and gve him a quarter to make a phone call!

[bush_is_wacko]

81. Now that's what I call a disgruntled employee!

I have seen the same. If Curtis was truly a disgruntled employee they would have DESTROYED his credibility beyond recognition. From what I understand the guy still has a pretty good job!

[Chimpanzee]

92. Actually he wasn't disgruntled at all

they just laid him off because he wasn't that good. But in a high security computer position they don't want to take the chance that you will become disgruntled as soon as they tell you you're going to be canned, so they just get a couple of goons to grab you and throw you outside. Your first hint that something is wrong is when your password no longer works to get into the computer system (talking mainframes here), then shortly after, the goons show up!

[elizm]

15. Thanks..Just read that on another thread..

And feel better now. Please excuse the meltdown.

[liam97]

21. But Will

can a lawyer make a statement on MSM which seems so contradictory to Kerry's actions WITHOUT Kerry's approval?

[WilliamPitt]

27. In a word

Yes.

[liam97]

32. aha..

then that makes sense ...

[dweller]

35. in perspective

as in, put this in the perspective of scottpeterson trial, lawyers, etc, the usual sos on the MSM...


does that help?

dp

[buzzard]

74. It may not be wise to make a statement

you can't back up but as long as there is freedom of speech you can say what you want. Just my opinion though.

[NVMojo]

83. in a few words ...a person has a right to their own opinions

unless they are part of Bushworld...

[Amaryllis]

48. just read what on another thread? Link?

[bear425]

18. Again, and always, you are the voice of reason. Thank you.

Bear: breathing deeply of the Thorazine mist...

[Sandy_0]

20. Is there a way that Judge Moyers can be removed?

[lonestarnot]

28. He's a party in the suit; if he gets the case, which he won't he will have

to recuse himself. If I am wrong please point out the errors of my ways someone with more knowledge.

[WilliamPitt]

37. Not the same case

I don't believe the Yost case is the one Arnebeck is in.

[alittlelark]

22. Glad to hear it!!! I'm in our CO cabin w/no cable

Therefore no Olberman and a NEED to know what's happening. I will occasionally start the car to get Sirius - but I seem to miss the AA news 7/8th's of the time. At least the wireless is functioning well!

This thing will take time (unfortunately) To play out. BCCI was not taken down in 2 months. Iran - Contra was not exposed in 60 - 80 days.

[BarbinMD]

25. How long...

...until the judge rules on the motion?

[Vektor]

26. Will, do YOU...

...think, from what you seen/heard there was fraud, and it is being acted on? I am not asking you to reveal sensitive information, or anything like that, I am asking your opinion, from what you know thus far. Do you think it's possible that this attorney is correct in saying they are not approaching this from a "fraud" angle? Or do you think he is wrong?

[WilliamPitt]

33. Two angles

1. Deliberate fraud

2. Triad covering mistakes made by it's machines, i.e. CYA for fauty equipment under contract.

The Kerry lawyers could believe it is #2, but in reading Ohio election law, screwing around even to cover up company mistakes is 'prima facie' fraud. It all comes around to the same place, and all we're left with is a discussion of motives. Did the want Bush, or did they want to not get in trouble for crappy machines?

It all comes to the same spot in the end.

[dogindia]

54. but the fraud was everywhere....Florida and so forth

Exit poles..exit poles..why is this so hidden?

It is just so frustrating and shocking and crazy making.

We pin our hopes to one thing...that Kerry will finally wake up and start talking.

Is this not the crime of the century and the biggest outrage ever? And the end of democracy if this is allowed to stand. Nothing will prevent them from continuing. Complete control of all government...courts.

[Amaryllis]

62. If you aren't online, or talking to those who are, you don't know.

[Vektor]

66. Very valid points...

And thanks for your prompt response. I think IMHO, that there is enough "weird shit" going on in various states to indicate more than just a case of someone playing CYA in Ohio over faulty machines.

However.

That's just one woman's opinion, and that and fifty cents will get you a freekin' newspaper. (Unless it's the Sunday edition, which is more expensive, and thus, MORE valuable than one woman's opinion.)

Sadly, the ubiquitousness of "weird shit" in various states is not enough to prove outright vote rigging in Ohio, in this particular case, though it IS as suspicious and disturbing as Rove naked from the waist down, and wearing a Laura mask.

With my experiences in the world of lawsuits, sadly, even with MOUNTAINS of evidence, (which may end up panning out in the end) legal cases, even relatively simple ones, can take years.

Which blows.

I suppose that although it sucks many different types of ass, the lawyer is probably doing the right thing by saying that they have no hard evidence of fraud. It may be there, but there has NOT been ample time to weigh it all out, examine it, and verify its solidity.

Grrr...

It's going to be a very long four years.

Thanks for all you have been doing.

[Lostnote03]

29. Thanks Mr. Pitt....

......I wonder if his role was to placate the doubting Thomas of the GOP.....A move from the GOP playbook, "nothing to see here ,Move On".....

[Amaryllis]

31. Will, do you know if Kerry thinks the election was stolen? This may seem

like a stupid question, but...I got nervous when I read this from this thread, post #55

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

“My understanding is that Kerry has been depressed about losing a national election. Understandably. Remember Al Gore and the Grizzly Adams look? In addition, the envelope of advisors around any politician is very tight. In essence, you hear what people think you should hear. His brother Cam has been very skeptical about the "fraud" allegations, which should give us an idea of what Kerry himself is hearing. Theresa on the other hand seems to get it, but as of last week it was unclear what she was actually doing.”

Kerry has to know it was stolen, doesn’t he? Do you know anything about what he believes or knows about this?

Before the election, I went to watch the vice pres debate at a Dem group thing because Andre Heinz was there. I wanted to ask him about the voting machines. Everyone else was gathered around trying to get his autograph and get their pix taken with him and I’m standing there saying, “What about the voting machines? Do they know about the security issues? Are they doing anything about it?” and he said, “Well, there’s exit polls.”
And I had this sinking feeling that maybe they didn’t even know what they were up against.

But by now, with all the Conyers investigation and Arnebeck, he has to know, right? maybe he just doesn't have any idea of the extent of the fraud and doesn't believe it was enough to swing the election.??

[WilliamPitt]

34. See post 33 above

[Amaryllis]

42. Thank you. We are so fortunate to have you and DU...I can't imagine

caring so much about this and having to rely on MSM for info...

[Dover]

38. Aren't these 'mixed messages' a Bushco-like technique?

It is always difficult to tell with Bushco what is true because they'll put out contradictory messages via various channels.

Occassionally that would not be intentional and would reflect REAL contradictions among the Bush supporters, but usually it was a way of deflecting the truth.

[Lostnote03]

43. I tend to acknowledge this as misdirection" rather than capitulation...n/t

[Catherine Vincent]

39. Faye started it!

:-D

[bardgal]

40. But..... what if the judge says "no"? nt

[WilliamPitt]

46. That is tomorrow's drama

I am trying to find out about the Judge.

[davidgmills]

90. Sargas

Was reportedly the judge according to the Green website that had an article on the original filing back on DEC. 2. He is a Clinton appointee, also according to the same article or one a day or so later.

[thanatonautos]

41. Yes ... this can't be emphasized enough.

We really need to keep our eyes on the
ball.

It is not so important what Keith Olberman
says, it is not so important what Howard Fineman
says, it is not even so important what various
Kerry lawyers are saying for public consumption.

The main thing to notice is what is communicated
by the filing today: Kerry has directly requested
the preservation of evidence and the taking of
a deposition relating to potentially fraudulent
activity in connection with the Ohio recount .

The most important question now is, will the
court grant the motions.

I am cautiously optimistic, given the information
that came out in the Conyers letter, regarding
videotaped comments of Triad employees. The
comments described there are, on the surface, damning
enough that I think a fair judge will want to see
the matter examined further.

Thanks, Will Piit, for your efforts in following this
story, and releasing it before Christmas. It gave
me something to look forward to.

[Imagevision]

44. WilliamPitt > My sentiments exactly!!!!!!!

[PinkPantherChick]

45. Thanks for the heads up--and for the thorazine in the air.

We all need to check our paranoia at the door and let some sanity blow in.

[marieaey]

47. So who is the KO lawyer? and his relation to Kerry is?

Thanks for the update Will. It's hard not to get excited over this. Can anyone here answer my question/

thanks

[Niche]

51. You can't tell me that Kerry of all people doesn't know

what these people are capable of doing?

[WilliamPitt]

53. He knows

which is why a lawyer filed motions to preserve evidence and get them under oath.

[GetTheRightVote]

61. So Will, what do you think will happen now ??

:kick:

[Amaryllis]

60. You're right. If he figured out what was going on with BCCI, which

was a whole lot more covert than what Blackwell and Gang are doing, he's gotta know. These guys are so blatant. I still wonder how much he knew going in about the e-voting issue though.

[bunny planet]

52. Thank you, I feel better now. Although I wasn't one of the chickens

(I swear). It has been a very long Monday, as you have attested to yourself. Tuesday has never looked so good.

[Imagevision]

56. sworn statements-impounded machines-blackwell brought down

[Misskittycat]

58. Is there, or will there be, a link to the text of the motions filed? eom

[WilliamPitt]

65. Here

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/122804V.shtml

[bunny planet]

63. Does the thorazine spray come in purse size. I have to leave the house

eventually.

[WilliamPitt]

68. Sssssssssssssss

That should last a while.

;)

[SueZhope]

69. Thats funny bunny!!! n/t

[mollyd]

64. Remember Kerry was a prosecutor

And he knows unlike television that thinking a crime was committed is not enough. Unlike television, in the real world crimes are committed everyday that go unprosecuted for lack of evidence. Even if George Bush stole Ohio, Florida and numerous stray votes around the country to give him a 3 million vote lead, no one will believe it without real evidence. Motive and opportunity is not enough to convict. Violation of the laws are probability only are suspicious, not proof. Excuse me for being pessimistic, but Kerry is in a difficult position. To attempt to prove something that 80% of the public does not believe, without looking like a nut if he can not find enough direct evidence.

[Amaryllis]

71. Check out these links if you want confidence in Kerry's competence :

Mollyd is right-he knows how to do this. Breaking up BCCI was no small matter.

Follow the Money
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2004/0409.sirota.html


Introducing John Kerry by our own William Rivers Pitt
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/22/6525

[pacalo]

67. Thanks for that, Will.

I know Faye will be relieved to hear this. :hi:

[shraby]

72. Here are the judges for that court

District Judges
Sandra S. Beckwith **
Susan J. Dlott
Edmund A. Sargus, Jr.
Algenon L. Marbley
Thomas M. Rose
Gregory L. Frost
Michael H. Watson

Senior Judges
S. Arthur Spiegel
John D. Holschuh
Herman J. Weber
George C. Smith
James L. Graham
Walter Herbert Rice

Magistrate Judges
Michael R. Merz ***
Mark R. Abel
Norah McCann King
Terence P. Kemp
Timothy S. Hogan
Sharon L. Ovington
Timothy S. Black

<http://www.ohsd.uscourts.gov/judges.htm>

[Vektor]

78. Nooooo!!! NOT HER!

This one:
http://www.ohsd.uscourts.gov/jbeck.htm

Was appointed by Bush Senior.

How much do you want to bet SHE decides?!!?!?

[roseBudd]

93. Judge Susan Dlott is married to lawyer Stan Chesley. Chesley has

hosted numerous huge dem presidential fund raisers, especially Clinton. Dlott also oversaw the police lawsuit in Cincinnati after the riots.

A GOP judge wrote a guest editorial in the Cincinnati Enquirer about why he was voting for Kerry. His name was Black.

Judge Dlott:
Judge Rebuffs GOP Effort to Contest Voters in Ohio

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3731-2004Oct27.html

on edit wrong Judge Black. Retired GOP judge Robert Black

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1013-34.htm

A Republican Declares His Independence
by Robert L. Black

When in the course of a lifetime, it becomes necessary for a born Republican to refuse to support the re-election of the party's incumbent president, to exercise his discretion, and in all good conscience, to vote for an opponent (even a Democrat), a decent respect to the opinions of his fellows requires that he declare the causes that impel him to switch.

[Diane R]

75. What will happen tomorrow?

Will there be a hearing before the judge, or will he/she issue an opinion based on the merits of the motion that was filed?

[LittleClarkie]

79. I still say this is the same public face we've seen since this began

Spokesmen always say that they're not trying to flip the election and that they don't necessarily believe in fraud. And yet the Kerry machine keeps tromping on. We go through this same cycle every time. We're happy with the action, then we freak out to hear the spokesman not shouting "FRAUD, FRAUD!" Then we bash alittle. Then the next action comes from the Kerry machine. We're happy. The spokesman. We freak. We bash. Repeat.

Hop off the rollercoaster people.

[zann725]

86. It's that Gandhi quote again: "then they fight us, then we win."

Every time it seems like things are going a little wrong again, just step back and realize it's just "them" fighting back (a lot of times with the media).

How do we even know if this "new" Kerry attorney ("Hoffmeier"???) in fact wasn't 'planted' by Rove?

[NVMojo]

82. the plans to steal this election did not come about instantly and

the solution to out it or fix it will not be instant ...

[lonestarnot]

84. kick

:kick: And goodnight! The not yellow rose of texas is pooped. Good luck there William.

[Is It Fascism Yet]

85. pass the thorazine, n/t

[roenyc]

87. anyone listen to Tom Hartman yesterday?

lawyer arenbeck (sp) was very upset that Kerry isn't coming forward to help the case. he sounded at his wits end. like he really wants more from Kerry. he would like a visual in order to move things along. tom Hartman talked a bit too much and the segment was much too short. but thats what i got from it. there is definite fraud and Kerry must get involved if they are to get it moving before Jan 6th.

[roenyc]

88. In reading Keith's blog I

see that this Mr. Hoffheimer e-mailed this info to Keith. now in doing a search on this guy i find the last time he did anything with Kerry was on Dec 16th. sorry DEC 10th, a preliminary injunction. and those words he tells keith appear in this injunction.

ok i know nothing about this stuff so i give you a pdf...http://www.votecobb.org/lib/downloads/references/2004-12-16_landis.pdf

please advise before i express my feelings to Keith. he tries to report for us. He is the only one who even mentions the word voter fraud. or OHIO on TV. so he at least deserves some credit. but sometimes he gets misinformed. obviously. wish he would fact check better.

[corbett]

89. Continuation Of Strategy Of Misdirection

I wouldn't be surprised if Senator Kerry allowed him to appear on KO knowing that he would say that. It's perfectly consistent with the strategy of misdirection!

[Peace Patriot]

94. Yeah, there's a lot to be said for that: misdirection.

Here's the quote, from another post at DU (from Olbermann blog):

MissBrooks (379 posts)
Mon Dec-27-04 06:40 PM
Response to Original message

26. From Keith's website...

Mr. Hoffheimer, Kerry's lead attorney on the ground in Ohio:

"I would caution the media not to read more into what the Kerry-Edwards campaign has said," Mr. Hoffheimer advised us by e-mail, "than what you hear in the plain meaning of our comments. There are many conspiracy theorists opining these days. There are many allegations of fraud. But this presidential election is over. The Bush-Cheney ticket has won. The Kerry-Edwards campaign has found no conspiracy and no fraud in Ohio, though there have been many irregularities that cry out to be fixed for future elections. Senator Kerry and we in Ohio intend to fix them. When all of the problems in Ohio are added together, however bad they are, they do not add up to a victory for Kerry-Edwards. Senator Kerry's fully-informed and extremely careful assessment the day after the election and before he conceded remains accurate today, notwithstanding all the details we have since learned."
____________________

Look at this statement, though:

"Senator Kerry's fully-informed and extremely careful assessment the day after the election and before he conceded remains accurate today, notwithstanding all the details we have since learned."

Sounds to me like this guy is defending a position he argued on Election night. Kerry's "fully-informed and extremely careful assessment" before he conceded?--that's absurd. How could he be "fully-informed" on Election night? "Extremely careful assessment"--this may be the lawyer describing HIS OWN assessment (which he advised Kerry of).

"...notwithstanding all the details we have since learned." ???? "fully-informed" on Election night?

The statement doesn't even make much sense.

I'll also wager the guy doesn't know a whole lot about Windows and C++ (hackability of these computers).

"The Kerry-Edwards campaign has found no conspiracy and no fraud in Ohio..." --How could a lawyer state this publicly PRIOR to depositions and examination of the election evidence (that K/E has asked to be protected)?

It's almost subversion--undermining the efforts of the lawyers who did the filing. And what to make of the phrase "has found" (in "has found no conspiracy")? Lawyers joining a case cannot be said to have "found" anything--especially the K/E lawyers AT THIS POINT in their participation. THIS IS NOT THEIR CASE. They are JOINING the case that others filed.

I think the whole statement is kind of weird. Could be a personal thing (defending his own position). Could be misdirection. Why go to these lengths--making these assertions? (no fraud "found"; "this presidential election is over; "the Bush-Cheney ticket has won."). Lawyers are generally MUCH MORE CIRCUMSPECT in the midst of a case.

__________________

On the other hand:

The BushCons are extremely dangerous people. They would not hesitate to kill to achieve their ends. Destroying peoples' lives and reputations is their morning warmup before breakfast.

So...there would be serious reason to assure judges, other politicians, expert witnesses, ordinary witnesses, party politicos, and any manner of person who is associated with, or might become associated with, challenging this election, that it is not aimed at unseating Bush, even if it is.

Judges are not immune to threats (nor to corruption, of course). This is BushWorld we're living in. Our ideals of justice may be in for a severe beating. Beware! Do not underestimate the sheer evil of what we're dealing with, and what we're trying to overcome.

All of this would make misdirection quite plausible as an explanation for various K/E actions and statements.

Also, this is not exclusively a legal situation. It is a highly political situation as well. This is a matter both for the courts and the Congress--and also for the people, the voters. But Congress holds ultimate power. ( Indeed, I believe the Constitution even gives them the power to throw out the entire election and choose the president themselves, not necessarily from the given candidates. Not that this Congress would do it.)

We, the people, are also in an extremely vulnerable and dangerous situation. This Congress was in fact illegitimately elected. Nothing about this election is on the up and up. Secret source code; paperless voting--the results controlled by rightwing BushCons--it's ridiculous. We didn't HAVE an election. We had an ILLUSION. (The Exit Polls being altered on the TV screens on Election night alone tells us that--and there is so much more.) The election was a fraud going in.

And, quite frankly, I don't know what to think of the Democratic Party leadership's acquiescence in participating in an election that was so rigged, going in, that they had no chance of winning the presidency or the Congress. It may have been a situation that crept up on them--they didn't quite grok it until too late. It may have been a combination of this and porkbarrel (funneling HAVA money to the states), outright corruption (Diebold was sure throwing a lot of 'wining and dining' money around), and a long history of poor leadership.

Really, they should have burned down the Capitol to get this changed. I don't care how obstructive Tom Delay was (on the paperless voting thing, for instance). It was just too bloody obvious that having BushWHackers controlling the vote tabulation CANNOT result in a fair election. The NON-transparency of it is amazing.

At the very least, they should have warned voters and volunteers--made it a campaign issue.

The American people have been poorly served and poorly represented in all of this. And it has never been clearer that behind the scenes money and power are controlling every event, including who we are permitted to have as presidential candidates.

John Kerry is swimming in a very polluted sea, with hurricanes and wild waves all around him (not to mention vicious sharks, the wreckage of many ships, oil slicks, fire and floating corpses). I don't know if he can see it all very well. I don't know to what extent he has contributed to the dire circumstances that he finds himself in, and that our republic finds itself in.

I think he is an intelligent and decent human being--and most certainly is capable of being president, possibly a great president . But I was not happy during the campaign with his inability to articulate the fundamental principles of democracy that the BushCons had so egregiously violated. I gave him a lot of slack--given the evil of his opponents, and the contingencies of campaigning. Still, I didn't hear CLARITY on the main issues: illegal war, illegal torture, war crimes, state support of religion, outing a CIA agent for political revenge, unconstitutional detention, massive financial corruption and conflict of interest, breaking of treaties, contempt for international law, diplomacy and world opinion, secrecy, and egregious lying to Congress and the American people.

This bothered me. I kept giving him more and more slack, and ended up very dissatisfied and uneasy. Like, can't he SEE the principle here, that's been blatantly violated?

I think that this uncertainty about Kerry is widely felt in the progressive community, and it may be why we go all hysterical regarding news, pro or con, that he's willing to fight this election fraud fight. Doesn't he SEE what's happened here? How can he stand for it?

Our ideas that he may be implementing a really smart strategy--laying back, keeping them off guard, protecting evidence, protecting witnesses, using misdirection--have a somewhat desperate tone. Yes, it may well be true. I certainly have felt this about him myself, in the current circumstance. My image for it is The Rattlesnake. Actually, I feel this quite powerfully. BUT, when my intellect looks coldly at this situation, I have to admit the evidence points to a compromiser, an insider, and NOT to a champion of the people.

There may be a middle way that he is pursuing--a long term strategy for undoing Bush Inc.--that bypasses Jan. 6, with only a token effort (he did, after all, float a trip to Iraq in January in the news recently)--a more prosecutorial approach.

But this leaves out we, the people--who have a right to know what happened in the election, and to participate in a solution. It also leaves us at the mercy of Bush Inc.--an entity that is destroying our country.

There is another right that we have--we have a right to revolt and to replace any government that is not representing us and does not have our consent.

That is the bottom line of the American Revolution and the Declaration of Independence, and it is the underlying principle of the Constitution, that government must possess legitimate power by consent of the people.

Consent of the people. Legitimacy. These are things that the BushCons will never have, but they do still need the appearance of them. And so they went ahead and quite literally manufactured "consent" out of the thin electronic air. They even let John Kerry have 48% of the vote. The ILLUSION of consent. The ILLUSION of democracy.

We have more than an oppressive government to overcome. We have an ILLUSION to overcome. Our task is very difficult. And what I fear, and what there is much evidence for, is that the Democrats and John Kerry will settle for that 48% illusion, and have no clarity at all about the right of the people to GIVE our consent, in any real sense, and our right to revolt when the powers running our government mess us over as thoroughly as they are doing now.

Democrats revolt? They couldn't even get a paper trail!

I remain fundamentally optimistic, however. We here at DU, and others in many different forums, are demonstrating that there is still life in the American people and that WE still believe in our democracy--and are, in fact, rediscovering its principles and its strength, even in its darkest hour.

We are asking much of leaders who have not been particularly good at representing us. We should not be surprised if they fail. And we MUST continue this fight until we have restored our right to vote, even if we cannot achieve legitimacy in our government in the near term. There is no other choice.

[BlackVelvet04]

91. Situations like the election fraud investigating

are rarely accomplished with a big eureeka kind of discovery, but instead are unravelled thread by thread, step by step. It takes time and it takes patience. We all want to see something that busts this wide open, but chances are that's not going to happen. We need to keep doing our part and help others do theirs, but this up and down stuff is exhausting. I think we need to get a grip and quit jumping to conclusions and making ourselves nuts.

As for KO it's been pretty obvious from the start to me that he's only going to go so far, that he's not totally convinced there was fraud and this isn't a driving force issue for him. It's another news story.

THIS IS OUR FIGHT, FOLKS and we are lucky and blessed to have Will and a few others leading the parade and doing things we can't do, but we might as well accept that the MSM is NOT going to be the leader in this....and that includes MSN and KO.

Set your face like flint and keep moving forward but don't be blown about emotionally by every newsreport, every nuance of every word and idle speculation.

Just my humble opinion.