Alternate theory on the 'other' lawyer on KO tonight

[WilliamPitt]

This is my last frikkin post today, I swear to Jeebus.

Yes, Kerry and crew might actually believe there was no fraud in Ohio. Consider the two theories:

1. Deliberate fraud;

2. Triad covering mistakes made by it's machines, i.e. CYA for fauty equipment under contract.

The Kerry lawyers, and Kerry himself, could believe it is #2, that there was no fraud. Doom! Death! Rage! you say?

No.

In reading Ohio election law, screwing around even to cover up company mistakes is 'prima facie' fraud. It all comes around to the same place, and all we're left with is a discussion of motives.

Did the want Bush, or did they want to not get in trouble for crappy machines?

It all comes to the same spot in the end.

[bleever]

1. Yes!! Now will you promise to get some rest?

And leave the poor kitty alone, too!

:)

[Bill219]

2. Thanks Will,

go and take a well deserved rest from the internet until the drama resumes tomorrow

[bear425]

3. Goodnight William Pitt - sweet dreams...

tomorrow is, indeed, another day.

[bardgal]

4. "Jeebus".. roflmao - and I agree......

But I also think there's more going on here that K/E are willing to let on right now..... if & WHEN they come in - they're coming in FOR THE KILL. It will be a TKO, a HOME RUN.

[TexasChick]

5. What exactly does "prima facie" mean, guys? Does it mean "no, if and

or buts", so to speak?

[WilliamPitt]

6. prima facie = on its face

i.e. a no doubter.

[TexasChick]

7. Thank you. n/t

[liam97]

9. actually it means it will serve

as adequate evidence in a court of law unless other evidence is obtained that can prove it false

[read the law first]

43. actually it's a burden shifting tool

The making of a prima facie case creates a rebuttable presumption that a party with the burden of proof has satisfied that burden of proof and the burden of going forward then switches to the other party.

In any action one party bears the burden of proof on a claim. When they make out a prima facie case, it means that the other party now bears the burden of proof.

A prima facie case can be rebutted and then the burden of proof goes back on to the original party.

Even though it is a hard standard to meet in most instances, prima facie should NOT be confused with res ipsa loquitor (which is the creation of a presumption about something based on the lack of any other explanation). Res ipsa loquitor is a VERY hard standard to meet.

[Sporadicus]

8. Roughly, 'at first glance' or 'apparently, but not proven' n/t

[DieboldMustDie]

30. prima facie:

1 : true, valid, or sufficient at first impression : APPARENT
2 : SELF-EVIDENT
3 : legally sufficient to establish a fact or a case unless disproved

-- Merriam-Webster Online

[read the law first]

44. # 3 is the closest definition in the legal context. n/t

[SnoopDog]

10. Right....It still ends up being a fraudulent election

[Wilms]

12. Yep. Don't you love it. nt

[troubleinwinter]

11. YES. What did you have when you went to dinner?

[WilliamPitt]

14. Peanut butter

[troubleinwinter]

16. Liar. You just want our sympathy.

[WilliamPitt]

19. Jif Extra Crunchy peanut butter

It's sitting right here.

If I wanted your sympathy, I'd show you what my cat did to my arms today.

[troubleinwinter]

20. That poor kitty does not like peanut butter.

[WilliamPitt]

26. I had to wrestle with "that poor kitty"

to keep him away from it.

[Amaryllis]

23. Will, what did you do in your spare time before you had DU?

[WilliamPitt]

27. I was a litigation paralegal for several years

and then I was a high school teacher, and the whole time I had an amazing girlfriend.

Now I have truthout and DU and a bastard of a cat.

[troubleinwinter]

31. Kitty wouldn't be such a bastard if you'd give him chunky peanutbutter.

[WilliamPitt]

36. Give? He just takes.

[troubleinwinter]

37. I love him.

[tavalon]

41. Is that bastard of a cat the one Amaya gave you?

The Trojan Kitty!!!!

[GetTheRightVote]

13. I hope the KO theory goes down correctly ...

:kick:

Ready to kick some you know what >>>>

[dogindia]

15. this thing is just TO BIG

to be just the Triad hiding stuff.

[CementDude]

17. Whatever Kerry believes..

Wouldn't it be nice of him to stand up and finally say it?!?

Puhleeease Pitt.. Every post you start is like a virtual tsunami.

Kerry/Edwards has abandoned the effort. It's all about the lawyers now... They're bottom feeding off whatever is left in the Kerry/Edwards legal fund.

Have fun following the money trail. It all leads back to the same place. Four more frickin years!!

I've been saying it since day one - If Kerry himself didn't ask for the recount, anything that happened afterwords would be meaningless.

[seito]

25. So,in other words,

We are DOOMED

Thanks, I think I'll hold onto just a bit of stubborn optimism.

I swear, I can't help myself.

[johnaries]

45. YES, we're doomed... because an asteroid is gonna hit us! In 2029!

And we're running out of time! Oh, wait, Bruce Willis is still alive! We're Saved! :silly:

[merh]

18. Let me buy you a beer.

:beer: Relax. You can't please all of the people all of the time! It has been a good day. You need to take care of you. Soon the feathers will settle and we will move on to our next adventure. (33 senators are willing to sign according to a posters recollection of Countdown) now we need to get more to sign!

Thanks Will. :hug: :loveya: You are a good man. :smoke: Smoke 'em if you got 'em!

[KoKo]

21. Eyes Rolling in Back of my head and calling AYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!

Okay...Will...got it...:crazy: Whatever you say....

[DELUSIONAL]

22. Could it be that the other lawyer on KO was misdirecting?

I sure thought that things would simmer down once the joining by Kerry/Edwards in the Green's party lawsuit happened.

So I watched a really good movie -- "Crouching Tiger-Hidden Dragon" and then check back with DU for any latest breaking news and find a whole lot of hysterical people.

Will's mom (Raven) must be proud of her son -- he's done a good job today.

Will Rogers was fond of saying that he didn't belong to an organized Party -- he was a democrat. I think only democrats can keep up with all the side currents and whirlpools on DU -- GOPig heads simply explode with the information overload and the dozens of ways of looking at any one topic.

[rdmccur]

32. After I posted below I see

you have already breached this hypothesis.

[lavenderdiva]

24. Thank you William Pitt!

Thank you, thank you, thank you Will for giving me some hope today! Thank you for all your hard work constantly updating us here at DU and at Truthout.org. Thank you for helping us through some emotional times today, reminding us of the facts of the case, and patiently answering our many questions! You are a blessing. Many sweet dreams to you (and your cat)!

[Lizzie Borden]

28. KICK!

:kick:

[lavenderdiva]

39. Lizzy - I hate to sound ignorant but,

what does 'kick' mean? I am kinda new around DU and there's still some terminology I am learning... Also, what does 'n/t' mean?
Thanks in advance!

[lavenderdiva]

40. sorry duplicate post

[lizzieforkerry]

42. Different Lizzie, but I can answer your questions

if you reply and just type kick in the subject line it bumps the thread up in the forum page. It kinda means you don't have anything to add to the thread but you think it is important so you want to keep it up so others can read it. Threads that don't have posts in them just fall off the page and most people don't have time to look past the first page.

n/t means no text. This way people know that the whole response is in the subject and they don't have to go down to thread to read the rest.

eom is end of message- the same thing

rotflmao- rolling on the floor, laughing my ass off (I just added this because it took me two months to figure it out.

[lavenderdiva]

46. Thanks Lizzy! I feel so much smarter....

n/t (!)

[rdmccur]

29. Has anyone considered that

Kerry doesn't want to advertise openly that he believes there's fraud
even though he may? Could this be part of a strategy? I believe he knows much more than some of us here give him credit for. Just an alternative explanation. Keep in mind what happened with the Iran-Contra investigation.

[delphine]

38. I could understand keeping quiet about it if that were the case

but why go overboard saying there WASN'T fraud then?

[mollyd]

33. Kerry

might suspect fraud. Fraud in the sense of a DELIBERATE conspiracy for the altering of an election

That is different from knowing there is fraud,

and way different from proving there is fraud.

[mollyd]

34. also, sadly

For it is been accepted in this country for minor levels of fraud on both sides to be occuring. The new reality that minor efforts now can lead to major alterations of votes because of the digital revolution is still not well understood.

[rdmccur]

35. Good point!