I'm not a new poster and I'm not disillusioned with Kerry

[malatesta1137]

I am FURIOUS. The filing of this ridiculous, worthless motion yesterday made me even more livid.

I volunteered for John Kerry for 8 weekends, 16 days, 10 hours each day.

He caved so fast on Nov 3 even his running mate was shocked. I'm giving him until Jan 6, not to see if he's unconceding, I know this is impossible now, but simply to see if he's either just a politician thinking of his future or a full blown impostor.

I'm also sick of bloggers telling me to have patience and that I hate America and people from Red Sates. They tell me that months from now enough and convincing evidence of fraud will surface. They can shove it, Bush will be in for another 4 years, it will be worthless.

Proof of fraud abounds RIGHT NOW. The Ohio Secretary of State is even refusing to testify, a 6 year-old could figure out the reason. Exit polls are NEVER wrong. Bush had an approval rating of 44% at best for the past 6 months. Presidents never got reelected with such low numbers IN US HISTORY.

Why are the 17,000 lawyers not pursuing evidence? Where ARE the 17,000 lawyers by the way? Weren't they supposed to fight for every vote? Why is the hard work being left for the Greens and Indys?

And why is Kerry sitting on 42 million dollars?

[rigel99]

1. I have the answers but....

You'll have to contact me personally by email

[e-mail]

you better sit down, the picture gets a little cloudy and then turns to insane....

[SnoopDog]

2. Why not tell us all? ...

[keepthemhonest]

12. do tell n/t

[marcologico]

27. please, no more skull and bones plutocracy conspiracy theories

Better to keep us in suspense.

[housewolf]

6. I want to know, too

Whatever it is that you think or know...

[saracat]

10. This isn't right. You make us give up our anonymity to know.

Why do you do that?

[TexasChick]

31. I read this part from your blog entry "Open letter to Senator Byrd":

It took African American men and women such Carole Mosely Braun to speak the truth. That we have only 6 of our total 27 bill of rights left.


This scares the living crap out of me! God, please give us the strength to fight this!

[merh]

40. So why not share with the rest of us?

Whatcha hiding? :shrug: Whatchafraid of? :scared:

[LittleClarkie]

46. (cough)Deaniac(cough)

Something tells me I know what the message is.

We shoulda picked the Waffle instead of the Flipflop.

[merh]

48. Flip Flops are much more practical than a waffle.

If you step in the water wearing a waffle, not only do your feet get wet, but your waffle falls apart. And there is not real soul to the waffle, whereas the flip flop has a dependable soul.
:shrug:

[LittleClarkie]

51. I prefer to eat them with maple syrup meself

Waste of a good waffle getting them wet like that.

Leggo my eggo, Howie.

Please excuse me. I seem to be having caffeine issues.

[merh]

52. Have a donut with your coffee

:donut: and this post and run thread. :silly:

[rigel99]

61. Afraid?

try brake lines cut,
houses set ablaze,
death threats.. nothing personally just to friends so pardon my being careful.

remember we are in the deep south. Home of All the King's men politics, except in this instance her name is Cathy Cox.

Let's give you some meat to chew on.

1. if a poll worker must take an oath and for many counties the poll worker is a Diebold employee (shock) and worse, that Diebold employee is not a citizen, what does that mean for our democracy?

2. Hypothetical riddle:
IF you have an election and the records are not sealed, nor are they categorically audited / approved by any agency whatsoever, what recourse do you have to assure that the election even happened? If those records went away when for instance when a PCMCIA card was erased, can you hold the person doing the erasing criminally liable for destroying election evidence?

These things should get you all thinking...

WHAT CAN YOU DO? Simple read your state's election code, and find the section that says you have a right to the records (all of the electronic records of the election including ballot images) then fax all 159 Counties (GA there are 159 counties ) with an open records request, but don't do it to the elections officials, send the fax to the county clerk of superior court asking for the sealed records.... That's what we all should be doing NOW.... it will yield most amazing results as you are no longer in the 'good ole boy' network but actually outside the elections folks who tend to be loyal to a particular sec. of state. they will say we only have a sealed record but here let me forward your fax.. and then the elections person will want to comply with a request from a legal letterhead superior court, hopefully will offer you the goods.. this is your foot in the door... try it.. I feel it will get folks somewhere fruitful.

[merh]

65. We all have heard about the intimidation and threats. There

are plenty of folks that resent the hell out of anyone who questions the "outcome" of this election. Let us know what we can do to help. Are you suggesting we check the results in every state? If the threats, intimidation and lack of cooperation are the insane things you reference, what does the "things get a little cloudy" mean?

The beauty of this forum is that most posts are considered tinfoil conspiracy posts. As one writer/investigator that has been following all of this has written, 99% is goobly goop, 1% is gold. For the majority of the lurkers there are too far many posts and too much confusion to know what constitutes gold.

I wish you luck and hope things get better for you and your friends.

[malatesta1137]

67. you can post it here

interesting that your email address starts with RIG

[rigel99]

80. I want to say things but cannot go into detail.

I got a very good document today. It's not what I drove 4 hours to effingham to retrieve, but it's a very tiny start.

What's remarkable is how nice people in small town GA are... in fact, there were 2 women there that made me have faith in our country, very hard working elections workers who bragged about how dedicated and loyal their poll workers were, and how they offered covered dishes (homemade food) to the people voting that day. all I got in my precinct was a plastic cup full of water... today felt like an apple pie, all american kind of day except for one very sad and creepy thing.

these honest women I dealt with in effingham were duped into participating in a very corrupt system. This bothers me that their integrity is marred by a larger system that corrupts the outcome. And the patriot act, if you wonder if it's real, trust me today, I felt the power of its insanity, personally, at my core. I'm very upset by the outcome of today. It's like the marionnettes of cheney/rove/bush do their jobs so impeccably well (except when they trip up ) and today, they tripped up. : )

tomorrow, the lawyers begin the combing, I"m tired and the work is really only beginning....

[New Earth]

3. thanks for sharing

honestly, i had to read that twice. i think a lot of people share your frustrations, even me.

[New Earth]

19. i should clarify my post

i MEANT, it's nice to see you somewhat calmly and logically explain your frustration.

[Smarmie Doofus]

4. Good points, all. And good questions.....

especially the last one.

[berniew1]

5. Documentation of more fraud in Ohio

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/1046

and http://northnet.org/minstrel/alpage.htm

[ClassWarrior]

7. So who's the enemy? Who perpetrated fraud?

Kerry or Bush**? Answer me that. Who's the enemy??

NGU.

[meti57b]

8. There are times when I wonder if Kerry really didn't want to win.

[New Earth]

9. i wouldn't go that far

but sometimes i wonder if certain Democrats didn't want Kerry to win.

[HeyManThatsCool]

20. BINGO Faye

I too wonder if certain DEMs in the know weren't all that pro Kerry

[ClassWarrior]

21. Oh, you mean like the so-called Dems who join here...

...and all they seem to do is bash Kerry?? Those Dems?

NGU.

[New Earth]

24. no wayyyyy

not them!!!! uh uh!!

[LittleClarkie]

47. Perhaps certain ones who wanted Hilliary instead

Maybe.

I swear, putting ones own political agenda over the good of the country would strike me mightily as something the BushCo would do, so our side better not be engaging in that sort of crap. I'd be mighty pissed if I found out there was sabotage in the works.

[ClassWarrior]

58. The only sabotage of which I see evidence...

...is the kind that appears on this forum on a regular basis.

NGU.

[LittleClarkie]

60. Da. Is true. Point taken.

Regular psy ops in here most days. Especially RIGHT after action from Kerry. Right on cue, it is. Makes ya go hmmmm.

[tritsofme]

11. Pre-election polls showed Bush's job approval right around 50%

not 44%, an average of the last 8 polls conducted before the election put his approval rating at 49.5%

We never had a case where a sitting president was so inbetween in terms of his approval, Clinton and Reagan had high approval rating heading into November, in the high 50% range, while Carter and Poppy Bush couldn't get their heads above 40% for most of their reelection years.

In the last 50 public opinion polls before the election, Kerry only led in 6 of them. Hindsight makes this look like a slim Bush victory was apparent since about August.

Kerry lost, he knew he lost, and now he is going back to the Senate to do his job. He had a fat bank account and a team of lawyers that he could have utilized, and he didn't, the only reason I see why he would do this is because he does not believe there was fraud committed against him on a massive scale.

[Lostnote03]

15. I'm confused.....nothing new~~~

.....I thought that pre-opinion polls were a thing of the past wrt their authenticity.....

[tritsofme]

16. I don't see why they would be a thing of the past

many polling firms did very well this year.

[Time for change]

37. Pre-election polls are meaningless compared to exit polls

The exit polls indicated a clear Kerry win.

Pre-election polls have numerous problems that exit polls don't have. For example:

How do you get a representative sample? (e.g., people who use primarily cell phones would be greatly undersampled)

How do you weight the likelihood that a person will vote? (Obviously this is no problem whatsoever in an exit poll)

How a person thinks they will vote prior to the election frequently changes by election day (again, no problem with an exit poll).

[tritsofme]

44. Exit polls are polls too, and are subject

to the same sampling variances as any public opinion poll.

Gallup explains it pretty well here:

First, some treat the exit poll as a census. It is not a census, it is a survey based on sampling of voting precincts. There is a reason it is called an "exit poll" and not an "exit census." That's because it is a poll, and as such is subject to sampling variation and other polling errors just as any other poll would be. In fact, because exit polling relies on quota sampling (hand selection of survey spots according to population size and other factors), it has a higher degree of potential error than do the random samples on which telephone surveys are based. Thus, there is no basis on which to believe the exit poll numbers are in any way more accurate than any other number you get from a poll. They are all estimates. The one advantage of the exit poll is that they know everyone they interview is a voter, while pre-election polls rely on models to determine who is likely to vote and who is not. However, that does not mean their estimates are necessarily better, and they are definitely not error-free estimates of the electorate as many treat them. In fact, when multiple exit polls existed in the past, they very routinely differed in their estimates of the vote as well as their estimates of the demographic characteristics of the electorate. Even today the Los Angeles Times exit poll differs from the larger exit poll used by the networks.

[Time for change]

76. So, what Gallup seems to be saying here

is that a person's opinion two months before an election of who they are going to vote for is as accurate as their memory of who they voted for five minutes after they voted. Do you thnk that makes sense? When did this quote come out -- November 3rd?

[tritsofme]

78. No, not at all

Pollsters would argue that polls taken a month or so before the election are not predictions of what will happen in November, but how it would look if the election was held on that day.

Polls taken a few days before the election are known to be very accurate, and they were this year too.

The quote from my previous post was released on October 20th, when Gallup was under fire for not weighting its party identification numbers to 2000 exit polls, which as it turns out changed in the Republican's favor in 2004.

[LittleClarkie]

13. Nah, yer just Malatesta. so it's merely expected

You don't have to be new when you're a Malatesta. Malatesta angry? Is the sky blue?

Let's see...

$200 worth of office supplies.
I worked all day on my birthday.
I took the 5 GOTV days off and worked them.
I stood in the cold rain for 2 1/2 hours to see him at a rally.
I've lost count of the days. Some were mid-week, some weekends. When I had a couple hours, really. And I took a few vacation days too on purpose during that time.
I donated to the DNC for the first time ever.
I spent hours on the internet printing out articles and flyers I thought the campaign could use.

So if working the campaign gives one license to have at Kerry, I guess I have as much right as you or anyone. But I'm not mad. Then again, I'm not Malatesta.

I believe the number was 15 million, by the way.

And nothing will be worthless if it results in something positive, even months from now. Be patient if you like. Become a Green. Become a hermit. I care not.

I, on the other hand, will still be here, being patient.

[papau]

14. last I heard we were down to 10 mill still in the bank!

But 42 mill sounds better!

:-)

[LittleClarkie]

17. Well it IS the answer to the meaning of life, the universe and everything

so I can see why.

What was the question again?

[seito]

23. Here ya go LittleClarkie

BTW, :yourock:

[Patsy Stone]

26. ???

And you are... :)

[seito]

35. Jealous Patsy

Here ya go

[papau]

30. So the 42 movie is being made - but when is the release?

so many mental pictures that were so great but will be hard to put on screen.

I am sure they will screw it up for all of us that loved Hitchhiker!

[LittleClarkie]

33. Esp without ol' Douglas to oversee it

Damn, he was too young.

I'd be impressed if they'd just not screw up Zaphod's costume. I know two heads is not easy, but please, no more mannequin heads.

[Left coast liberal]

45. Yes, indeed. You got that right!

Thanks, :hi:

[NVMojo]

18. you are aware that the majority of people in this country do not know

that any of this stuff is going on, don't you? This was never going to be an easy sell with KKarl Rove controlling the corporate media and the entire perception of things. The bad guys here are not our own people, we all got fucked by the Bush kabal. Imploding against each other for we are but a few compared to millions who don't know what is going on is not good for any of the righteousness we stand for ...The 9-11 families have still not received vindication for the murder of their loved ones who are DEAD. We are not DEAD and no matter what we need to stay the course if we ever want to take this nation back...

[MissBrooks]

22. It pisses me off that he has ALL that money

and we worked for him, gave him our hard earned cash and he doesn't even fight side by side with us.

What a jerk.

[New Earth]

25. LOL

times a trillion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ShinerTX]

28. We should have known better.

Every time you put faith in the Democratic Party, they screw you over because they're more concerned with keeping their corporate donors happy than they are with doing what's right.

[Straight Shooter]

42. We should have known better.

Every time you don't watch the Republican Party like a hawk, they screw you over because they're more concerned with keeping their corporate donors happy than they are with doing what's right.

[wlubin]

29. Why was it ridiculous and worthless. I thought ppl were saying

that it was big, and important cause now it helps the greens case immensely. Is this not the case? Can someone enlighten me on this?

[New Earth]

32. it's called, someone's opinion.

consider everyone's, but come to your own. that's all it means :)

[wlubin]

34. yeah but the entire tone of this forum ever since kerry filed yesterday

was that of being let down. Everyone was excited in anticipation of the filing, and then once the filing took place everyone was acting as if they were let down, and some kerry bashing began to ensue. Is there something I missed? Did Kerry decide not to file the way we thought he would? What happened? What is it that everyone wishes Kerry to do that he is not doing?

[ClassWarrior]

66. Whenever there's big news here, there are people who show up...

...simply to spread confusion and disappointment amongst DUers. Jesus Christ could have made a personal appearance on KO's show, explained step-by-step how Bush** and the Radical RW stole the election, and appointed Kerry president of the world, and these disruptors would be here pissing and moaning about how he should have been appointed president of the universe - and it's his own fault he wasn't!!

These people want us to distrust our Democratic leaders - particularly JK, since he's the closest thing we have to a party leader right now - so that (they hope) we'll shoot one another instead of the real enemies, the real criminals, the Radical RW. It just tells me they're scared of us.

So I wouldn't worry too much about the tone of this forum. With a little practice, you can start to recognize the trolls yourself.

And by the way, welcome to DU! :hi:

NGU.

[Malikshah]

36. Shhh.. Don't you know it's a Chess game!

Yeah, that's it-- a chess game. We must all be quiet and patient and wait for the next move.
Yup..

A chess game....


*runs in a kicks over the fucking board*

Damn. that felt good.

[lonestarnot]

38. Are you an attorney?

[New Earth]

39. lol

don't question attorneys. you'll be sorry!

[lonestarnot]

43. I didn't get a response...case closed LOL

[merh]

41. Please provide a link a credible and legitmate source that

substantiates your claim that "Kerry is sitting on 42 million dollars". Thank you.

[kc.ink]

49. I thought that was 50 million? ? ? ? n/t

[rigel99]

63. Dean had 40M and still Lost

arrogance of joe trippi and lack of realizing who wields all the power in US (Those damn idiot pundits on MSM).

this isn't about needing money. When Edwards gets out of office, could he go back to being a lawyer and start prosecuting election fraud? does he have more weight as a lawyer than a senator? What rules prevent senators from engaging personally in such battles? remember gore's predicament

let's give them some time, this is a longterm effort, watergate style, takes lots of gathering and then one big HERE IT IS... you're caught!

hang in there guys. but I still am mad at the speed of light concession... grow a backbone kerry....

[Turn CO Blue]

50. A 6-year old...

You write: "The Ohio Secretary of State is even refusing to testify, a 6 year-old could figure out the reason."

Then I say that it's too bad we don't have more 6-year olds anchoring news shows or on the Ohio Supreme Court!

I feel your rage, dog. I really, really do.

In the book White Noise, by Don DeLillo (a brilliant book), he writes: "When times are bad, people feel compelled to overeat."

My friend, I have gained (no lie) 11 pounds since November 3rd. Times are bad, indeed.

[Patsy Stone]

53. I don't eat

and I have lost about 6 lbs. I am tiny, so you notice it. Let's share our problems and even out our weight. :)

[Turn CO Blue]

56. That's why I'm on the board so often

to find like-minded people to share my grief and this journey toward justice with.

Thanks, Pats. You do rock, you know.

[Patsy Stone]

57. Here's to Justice!

Raise a glass. Thanks! No, you rock. Breathe deep...

[marcologico]

54. exactly what is so worthless about the motions filed yesterday?

"I am FURIOUS. The filing of this ridiculous, worthless motion yesterday made me even more livid."

Try turning off your TV, you'll live longer.

[New Earth]

55. he's always furious

but we love him just the way he is.

[marcologico]

59. well in that case. . .

Rage, rage against the dying of the light!

[Pacifist Patriot]

72. Though wise men at their end know dark is right.

[Chasing Dreams]

62. Thanks for the rant! I am furious too.

My position is, and has been for several weeks, that my clock runs out on the Democratic Party on January 6th. If a serious House and Senate Contest of the Nov. 2 "election results" does not materialize, I will change my party affiliation from Democratic to __________? for the first time in 28 years.

Are you with me? Leaving en masse - tens of THOUSANDS of us -- will send the appropriate message to the Democratic Party, don't you think? Register Green, Independent, I don't care really. I'm tired of being taken for granted.

[mzmolly]

64. You may be mistaken on a few points? First, Conyers and many DEMOCRATS

are leading the fight and did so (formally) beginning November 5th. Additionally, Conyers said Kerry is working closely with the effort and he's been in contact.

Exit polls have been wrong in the past, but do show a need to investigate when there are discrepancys. I can tell you from canvassing in MN that Bush supporters were 'embarrassed' of their Bush support. The reason I know is that many who declined to answer questions on who they planned on voting for said "family values and terra" were the top issues for them in the election.

* Kerry is actually sitting on about 15 million - last I heard, and he's spending it on the attorneys in Ohio who are working the "investigation."

Also, since were quoting statistics, a war time President has NEVER been defeated in the history of the US. Go figure, start a quagmire and win the election - guaranteed! :eyes: Further, *'s approval ratings were at about 51% when he was supposedly re-elected.

Granted there are many who believe there was likely fraud (myself included) and I am encouragining an effort to investigate, but we need to chill and let the process unfold a bit.

Now back to your regularilly scheduled rant. ;)

[Vektor]

68. I am not questioning your right to feel this way...

...but there are a few things I must respectably disagree on. Kerry does not have 42 million dollars, 50 million, or any other overinflated number that has been thrown around in the past, mostly by Neocons and Kerry opponents. He has FIFTEEN million, and while that is still a sizey sum to most of us, chances are he has a very costly battle ahead of him, and there is a very good reason why he is retaining the money for now. He is not out spending it on frivolities. Until this election situation plays itself out to the bitter end, he'd BETTER hold onto that money. He's going to need it.

Kerry does not have 17,000 lawyers. This figure came from a lousy right wing-rag which also stated that he distributed a booklet to his supporters prior to the election instructing them to lie about having been disenfranchised in the event he doesn't win. Clearly this never happened. No one person has 17,000 lawyers. That is enough people to fill a concert arena. That is the population of my entire hometown. The Democratic party had planned to have approximately 10,000 attorneys supervising various polling places around the country on election day, but all of those individuals are not Kerry's personal legal team, nor have all of them been retained. If that were so, the cost would be astronomical.

As much as it sucks, Bush's approval rating held steady at about 48% for months before the election. I don't know why that many people supported him, but for some reason, they did. (Ick.)

I'm also livid that this isn't moving faster, but legal cases, (any and all of them) do not come to pass overnight. I once filed a very cut and dry lawsuit against the insurance company of a drunk driver who hit me at 70 MPH while I was stopped at a red light. He was also wearing an intravenous morphine pump and had a bag of weed in the car with him when the accident occurred. There wasn't a whole lot of evidence to gather, investigations to do, or hidden truths to be found. It was pretty obvious what happened. He was arrested on the scene, there were 7 eyewitnesses, it was a slam dunk.

The case took 14 months to finalize.

Imagine how much time and effort a case of this magnitude is going to require. Kerry cannot make it happen overnight. No one can. I know you have no reason to believe me, and you don't know me. I could be full of shit. All I can say, and pray you will have a grain of faith, is that Kerry is doing everything he legally, logically, effectively, and realistically CAN do right now. And it is more than the general public knows.

I won't tell you to be patient, because you'll give me the ol' THK "shove it!" so I'll just say... er...

ehhhh...

hang tight? :shrug:

And I'm sorry this sucks so much (_*_).

[malatesta1137]

69. the correct amount of money Kerry has

is irrelevant. Making sure fraud is exposed before Jan 6 is not a 'frivolity', it's fundamental.

Bush's numbers were bad compared to the votes he 'received'. Exit polls were only wrong where there was no paper trail. Don't try to tell me there was no LARGE SCALE FRAUD.

Some people still think that the same criminals who invaded a country for pure corporate profit would stop at rigging an election.

[Vektor]

71. I think you are misreading me.

"Making sure fraud is exposed before Jan 6 is not a 'frivolity', it's fundamental."

I NEVER said that investigating fraud was a frivolity. Never. I am the last person who would say that, I support a FULL investigation. I don't even know how you gleaned that from my statement. I MEANT: He is not out wasting the money on silly, inconsequential, non-election related things. (Cars, boats, expensive suits, exotic white tigers, etc...) In other words, the fact that he still has the money is GOOD. It means he can use it to investigate the matter.

"Bush's numbers were bad compared to the votes he 'received'. Exit polls were only wrong where there was no paper trail. Don't try to tell me there was no LARGE SCALE FRAUD."

I never said that at all. I am certain there was large scale fraud. You needn't convince me. I am aware that Shrub's votes exceeded his popularity. We agree on that. So there's no issue there.

"Some people still think that the same criminals who invaded a country for pure corporate profit would stop at rigging an election."

I have no doubt Bushco. would rig an election. Again, totally agreed.

Look, I never attacked you, or implied your concerns about the election were invalid. I told you I understood why you were angry, but only pointed out that the situation, (in some areas) was not as bad as it seemed. Believe me, I am 100% in agreement with you that the election was rigged, and it needs to be aggressively investigated. I was only pointing out that the right wing media had inflated a few things to make those of us who do not agree with the validity of the election, and Kerry's right to investigate it look like loonies.

Nothing harsh was directed at you.

[merh]

73. The correct amount of money is important if you are making it

a part of your statement slamming him for his inactivity or apathy. You state it as if it were the truth, a fact that is supported by actual knowledge, when actually the number is not accurate, is an exaggeration and a lie!

Just as the money you put in his "stingy pockets" is a distortion of facts and you just talking out of your a**, so too is your statement that he is doing nothing!

Why is it that you insist upon him letting you know what it is he is doing? How immature. (imho)

[malatesta1137]

77. diverting attention from the real issue aren't we?

okay the 42 million is less than what I thought it was.

so now Kerry is totally off the hook and all my charges are wrong.

Give me a F*CKING BREAK.

[merh]

79. Why so angry?

Can't help it that the credibility of your posts is suspect when you use exaggerated figures to bolster your position.

:shrug:

[JD Lau]

70. Go for it, malatesta!!!! eom

[Machiavelli05]

74. All this anger with Kerry is ridiculous.

Bush has an approval rating of above 44% and has never, in the last 6 months, dipped below that.


You think b/c you gave 8 weekends you get the right to bitch? How selfish.

Many people gave much more than you.
You dont think Kerry did the very best he could do?

Oh, thats right he did it just for his Skull and Bones buddy. Have you met my friend reality? You guys should get to know each other.

Its so easy to monday morning quarterback the election and just b/c you think that with your infinite wisdom, and some other candidate running you could have won the election really is irrelavent.

Whether Kerry conceded is really not of any consequence to who wins the election. If evidence comes forth that proves Kerry won, his concession is meaningless. However, he and the Dem Party saved face by not looking like sore losers - but still making sure everything is on the up and up. Too bad the same thing cant be said about you.

[malatesta1137]

75. you deserve Bush as President

if you think the Democratic Party made sure everything is 'on the up and up'. Karl Rove should hire you.

[delphine]

81. Just curious as to what your response to this thread will be

on 1/7/05 after the challenge of the electors fails? Or after 1/20/05 after bush is inaugurated with parties paid for with money that should go to Bangladesh and India and Indonesia?

No one wants Kerry to be president more than I do.

I have waffled between the words of the faithful (that there's a grand plan and the silence is part of it and the repeated pronouncements by JFK and his people that bush won and it's over and nothing will change the outcome are also part of it) and the words of the disillusioned (who are really angry and hateful and spiteful),

landing mostly in the middle somewhere. I want to believe there is a plan, and I will be glad to hear "I told you so" from those of you out there that are pressing for the "grand plan" scenario. I want to be wrong.

If there is a grand plan I can agree that it was clever and ingenious up to the point where the cases started hitting the courtrooms and getting tossed by the judge, and deadlines passed and the election was certified and the electors cast their votes.

Now playing cards really close to the vest is no longer a winning strategy.

Because Ohio election law allowed Blackwell to make any sort of challenge within the "safe harbor" impossible.

Okay, the concession HAD to happen There was no way for Kerry to make a stink about it with NO evidence except exit polls. (Except they did that in the Ukraine and it worked out quite well).

But if Kerry had said "The voters determine the outcome, not the networks. Let's let the votes be counted", it could hardly be considered "sore loser" words - so a few hours or days couldn't hurt. Blackwell would have been forced to speed up counting rather than delaying everything, and the same process (glibs and Arnebeck) could have been much further along by now . . .

Everything is 100 times harder to do if bush is (a) declared the winner and Kerry concedes; AND (b) the election is certified; AND (c) the electors have voted; AND (d) Dick accepts the electors' votes.

Perhaps Conyers' objection will be ratified by a Senator (or many). The repukes have to sit through a couple hours of debate and then likely will simply vote against it. The vote will be cast, shrub will be inaugurated.

Perhaps the investigation will continue. But what is the remedy if JFK proves beyond a doubt that it was stolen? Even in the unlikely event a tie is made to Rove, bush probably has no effing clue. So is the election overturned?

No one knows.

It's tough to be patient. Maybe we'll know a bit more next week when Conyers has another hearing and then the electors are challenged.

We are all frustrated. I just can't bring myself to fully join the "Wait, Kerry has a grand plan" crowd, but I visit there a lot.

Because I can't bring myself to give up on Kerry as our President either.