This is a great time to be alive

[WilliamPitt]

Ask yourself: What kind of time would you like to live in?

Would you like to live in a time with no great question, no great struggle, no great contest? I do not believe in Utopia, in a world of peace, because men are men and testosterone is addictive, and because power must always be held by someone and will therefore corrupt absolutely. But there have been times when people have only had to worry about their immediate surroundings, about their lawn or their crop or whether the King will conscript them to go fight the enemy across the sea. There is a peace in this, a peace in being absolutely powerless. Would you like to live in that time?

Or would you prefer to live in a time where a great question is before you, where there is a great struggle, where there is a great contest? The gamble here is the slim, good, or certain chance of absolute defeat. Being involved at all means you have power, you have a say, you can determine the fate of the planet beyond the reach of your arm. Being involved means you must face the consequences of involvement, be there defeat or victory. Any wise person will tell you of the hazards to be found down either path, each hazard being equally deadly. Winning can be worse than losing, though both are in play.

What say you? Where do you stand?

I say this is a great time to be alive, and if defeat is to come, then let it find me on my feet, and not on my knees.

[NVMojo]

1. Right on, William!!!

and nothing is truly valued unless we fight for it!!! Winning back our Constitution and many other things will be well worth it ...

[In Truth We Trust]

2. I know not where others stand, for me give me liberty or give me death!

Jan 6 is our tea party date!

[NVMojo]

8. Yeah! right on, in truth we trust!!! Liberty is ultimate!

[Forkboy]

3. good God

:eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

7. Came to do the short-sentence parade rain, eh?

Bully.

[NVMojo]

10. Forkboy may just be a wee bit constipated ...got laxatives??

Liberty, let it reign!!!!

[Forkboy]

16. nah

just not all excited and full of myself because I live in times where people are being slaughtered for oil,killed by the thousands in a disaster,going homeless in our country at a rapid clip,etc.

But hey...isn't it just all so much fun to be around when something happens!!!!!!

:eyes:

[WilliamPitt]

21. Your righteousness inspires us all

[Forkboy]

31. More reason for you to be so excited!

Your repeated attempts at scolding DUers over the years doesn't inspire us.

I remember seeing you on CSpan and thinking what a great speech you made.Within two days you posted a drunken screed bitching at DUers because they weren't acting like you wanted them to.You have done this repeatedly over the years Will,and you know it.Within the last couple of weeks you ran up to GD04 and called it a shitty swampo,and that this was the place where things were getting done.You ride the high horse continuously,but I've seen some of your emails to others and you're one of the nastiest people around if one isn't a groupie-like sycophant sucking up to you.

You have an incredible writing skill but like Hitchens a seeming split personality.One day a nice guy,the next going off on a whole swath of people here on DU,the ones on YOUR side.

[WilliamPitt]

39. Or

The other view.

I went into GD2004, where I'd spent a lot of time but hadn't been back in for a while, and saw 20 threads about people in here attacking each other. It was dispiriting. I said so. We do the circular firing squad better than anyone, and I will bloody well point it out when I see it happening. It was a shitty swamp, and pointing that out is no crime. I am also entitled to an opinion on the matter. When DU makes it *harder* to deal with the reality of our current estate, that means DU has staggered off the path. It used to be about support.

As for the 'sycophant' stuff, that is nonsense. I get my ass kicked on this forum on a daily basis, because I participate in a way you have never approached. If I was interested in attacking people because they didn't agree with me, I'd have to quit my job and no nothing but respond to that.

And again, since we're being honest here, I suggest you find a mirror. The post of yours above is the longest thing I have seen you write on this forum since you showed up. 95% of your posts are one-line snark attacks, hit and run bullshit that does nothing but cause trouble and hurt feelings. I've written 500 words to your one on this forum, and if some of those words have been ill-chosen, well, that's the result of having the balls to do more than snipe and flee.

[WilliamPitt]

52. *crickets*

[Forkboy]

57. No,actually writing out a thoughtful (hopefully) response

I could have responded faster by just sniping and fleeing,but then you'd bitch about that.Which one do you want? :shrug:

[Forkboy]

55. And as you see,I'm more than willing to do more than snipe and flee

After you posted about GD04 being a swamp I came down here and saw pretty much the exact thing only on different topics.Pointing out that GD04 was a swamp was no crime (though the mods locked it as flamebait) but to act as though the only people getting things done were those of you down here was condescending as hell Will.You have no clue who is doing what,in that forum or any other.Once again,you acted as if you were the end all be all of getting things done.

I've never tooted my own horn about what I do locally.I prefer to keep my mouth shut about it because it's how I was raised.A quantity of words,or a lack thereof indicates nothing about what we do offline.I've seen many a wordy post here on DU that basically says nothing.It's not a question of having balls.

As much as I was uninspired by Kerry I canvassed,I called (something I hate,because I hate people calling me) and did my damndest to get the Bush leaning clowns around here to vote for Kerry instead.I've marched against this war,against nukes in the early 80's,and many times in between against Reagan and Bush Sr.I've tried to help local Dems and progressives get elected around my area.I've donated money and time (money that I dont even have to spare).


I dont have your audience (nor would I want it,and I dont mean that as an insult to you or them).You do have a large audience.But sometimes you feel the need to piss on half of them.I dont get it.It's more than just ill-chosen words Will.If it had only happened once or twice I'd buy that,but it's been countless times since I've been here.

You're getting a slice of fame,and like many you seem torn on how to act.I suspect you just want to be yourself and have a snarky exchange now and then,but then you also seem to want people to take your writing seriously.Unfortunately you're trying to both to the same audience,and it's something that rarely worksd for anyone.I've seen it happen to a close friend who is very popular in music right now.It's not a postion I'd wish to be in myself.I might be acting the same way.Contrary to what you think I hope you can find a balance between the two that's acceptable to you and your fans.

[WilliamPitt]

70. That was actually

an awfully nice response. Let me try to reply in kind.

"to act as though the only people getting things done were those of you down here was condescending as hell Will"

When I made that post in question in GD2004, I was not truly involved down here. I made the comment about "Come here to do some real work" because when I entered GD2004, all I was seeing was the standard-issue my-candidate-is-better-than-yours crap from February, and it turned my stomach. Yes, it was snarky, but to say it was somehow worse than what was happening is to deny reality.

"I've never tooted my own horn about what I do locally"

I apologize for intimating anything that would suggest you are not doing your part. That was crap from me, and was wrong. I also, by the way, apologize for the *crickets* thing.

"It's more than just ill-chosen words Will.If it had only happened once or twice I'd buy that,but it's been countless times since I've been here"

I am about to crack 30,000 posts. I've been here since May of 2001. I have gone through a hundred evolutions in that time, regarding candidates, priorities, beliefs, hopes, fears, personal issues - had a marriage blow up on me while I was here, and the agony of that lasted more than a year - etc.

Look. I'm just another activist who happens to write well enough to get a message through. At some point I crossed a terminator and became a 'personality' here, and out there. For a long, long time, I fought it. I just wanted to post like any other DUer, to vent my spleen like anyone else and to be obnoxious like anyone else and to be contradictory like anyone else. This place was my security blanket, where I could freak out (!!!!111) and enjoy the catharsis.

In the last year I have forced myself to understand that I can't do that anymore, and believe me, it has been hard. When I came here, I was NOBODY, just another poster needing help and support. Sometimes I fail at it these days, but not nearly as much. You are right to say that I have been an ass here on many occasions, but a lot of people here are asses on many occasions, yourself included. I didn't want to deal with the added burden. I hope that makes sense.

"I hope you can find a balance between the two that's acceptable to you and your fans."

I have. My truthout crew is excellent, and as previously stated, I am getting used to the idea that any passing thought I might post here could get repeated on 500 blogs. That's a tough nut to crack, Fork. Imagine trying to post here with the idea that a lot of people are watching. I'm getting better at it.

Peace?

[Forkboy]

74. Peace sounds good

In the last year I have forced myself to understand that I can't do that anymore, and believe me, it has been hard. When I came here, I was NOBODY, just another poster needing help and support. Sometimes I fail at it these days, but not nearly as much. You are right to say that I have been an ass here on many occasions, but a lot of people here are asses on many occasions, yourself included. I didn't want to deal with the added burden. I hope that makes sense.

It does.I know I'm ass but nobody looks up to me for guidance (thank the Lord for that).Your trying to deal with that is exactly why the poster who inferred I was jealous is wrong.It's a sucky position that I dont wish on anyone,and one of the reasons I dont post long things.The day people start taking me seriously is the day I have to act it.Joking is my only mechanism for not just sticking my head in the oven and if it's ever taken from me I'm fucked.DU is still my catharsis,and I want it to stay that way.

As for the marriage thing,I can sympathize.My wife left me last week ( I can't imagine why! I'm so lovable and easy to get along with lol).

[WilliamPitt]

78. For whatever it is worth

I thought the jealousy comment was wildly wrong.

And I am really sorry about your wife.

Keep joking. I'll be jealous from a distance. ;)

[Raksha]

92. I'm sorry.

I didn't mean to offend either one of you.

[Forkboy]

118. I wasn't offended Raksha

no worries :)

[tavalon]

80. My condolences

on the end of your marriage.

[Forkboy]

89. Thank you

I'm still hoping things can be worked out.

[tavalon]

90. Well then

it may not be the end.

Wow, it's amazing that you could carry on such a coherent discussion like you did tonight. I was a gibbering idiot for the first few months after my marriage took a nose dive.

Good luck to you with that.

[WilliamPitt]

81. Oh, and P.S,

I win, 'cause you got a post deleted and I didn't.

Neener neener neener.

:P

[tavalon]

85. Like you've never!

Hah! ;)

[Forkboy]

88. LOL

ya got me there!

[tavalon]

77. Well said

I do hope the truthout crew gives you the space to be an ass from time to time, everyone needs that.

I was once a big fish in a much smaller pond than you find yourself in now. I wigged. I hated it. And luckily, I found a way to evade it, to walk away (though I think there is still a Terri Avalon Sighting Network out there somewhere. Creepy). This isn't one you can walk away from anywhere near as easily nor do I think you want to.

My condolences to you. Of course, it isn't going to stop me or thousands of others from reading your posts. I'll miss the snarky incarnation. I like it (except when it's directed at me. Only happened once) and frankly, I think you are much too passionate to keep the lid on it all the time, fishbowl or not. But, good luck to you on that one. ;)

[WilliamPitt]

79. I snarked at you??

Ye gods and little fishes. I'm so sorry.

[tavalon]

83. I don't remember the details

that's how unimportant it was. I was probably in a down mood and made a fatalistic comment. I do that when I'm down. When I'm up, I'm a romantic warrior.

Patrick Henrys take their passions all over the spectrum. No apology needed but accepted if it makes you feel better.

[WilliamPitt]

86. Ahhhhh

:)

[Raksha]

65. I'm a relative newbie here...

...and therefore not too familiar with the interpersonal politics on the forum, but my immediate take on it is that he's jealous.

[Forkboy]

69. Your immediate take would be wrong

I wouldn't want to be in Will's place at all,ever.

I feel that he defeats his own purpose by insulting people then trying to rally them then insulting them then trying to rally them ad nauseam.

Trust me,it's been going on for years here.I honestly do respect Will's talent,but he does himself no favors by lurching back and forth between the rah rah stuff and the scolding.The scolding and rude posts detract from from his good stuff and turns off many of the same people he wants to help,and who otherwise might help him.He's one person playing both the good cop and the bad cop.

Welcome to DU.I hope you stick around.Du has a lot to offer.Dont let this spat fool you ;-)

[seito]

73. Sometimes a good scolding is in order

I think. :)

[Forkboy]

75. Sometimes it is

I agree.

[Raksha]

91. I didn't read the whole thread when I posted that.

I just know it's been jealousy when I've been on the receiving end of similar notes. That's not likely to happen here on DU because I mostly lurk and don't post much, except to cheer someone on occasionally as I did with Will just now. It's not likely to happen on my "home board" these days either--God knows I'm not writing well enough to inspire jealousy in anyone!

I can hardly bring myself to write at all, which is very unusual for me. I'm not sure if it's because I'm a little awestruck and intimidated by the quality of some of the posters here at DU, or because of the sheer amount of information I've been trying to absorb in a short time, or a little of both. But all day I've been wanting to write a letter to my senators and congresswoman and also to John Kerry--not a form letter but a real letter of my own--and I haven't been even been able to start it.

I have no problem admitting I feel a little bit jealous when it's obvious that someone else's mojo is working when mine isn't! I know what inspired writing looks like and also how it FEELS, in a visceral kind of way. It's the feeling that I miss the most.

[tavalon]

93. Glad you caveated that one

Because it's not that simple as you can read. They handled it in an exemplary manner, IMO.

[henslee]

112. self delete.

[selmo7]

124. made me think of -

"Be careful lest in casting out
your demons, you cast out the best thing that's in you."

- Nietzsche

"To see life as all light and no shadow, or all shadow and no light is to be less than fully human. The richness comes, as the classical artists down through time knew, with the ability to portray chiaroscuro – the light and the shade. The shadows and light in a painting make it real, make it authentic. The same can be said for human existence."

- Don Beaudreault

"Not a few who meant to drive out their demons went thereby into the swine themselves."
- Nietzche

Thus shadow owes its birth to light.
- John Gay, The Persian, Sun, and Cloud (l. 10)

If it weren't for such times, we wouldn't have free will. Seems God is a real trickster -

[freeplessinseattle]

41. yeah, what's the point? we should shut down du and all jump off a cliff

[Forkboy]

59. Not at all

I just dont see the joy in these times we're living in. :shrug:

[tavalon]

84. Hey Freepless!!!

Are you still up? You should give me a call or PM me. I told you we would lose contact if we didn't work hard.

[tavalon]

87. Darn, you must have gone to bed

Hey, send me a message tomorrow, okay? Tomorrow is my goof off day, maybe we could hang?

[lapislzi]

131. Who said anything about FUN?

and it beats the alternative (I think).

[Forkboy]

13. projection?

[WilliamPitt]

15. beets?

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WilliamPitt]

20. Hm

No, actually. Insomnia. But it is interesting that you'd choose to impugn my reputation for no good reason. Why would you do this?

I suppose the word in the line above should have read 'Boredom?'

'Pathetic' perhaps.

'Sad' even.

But instead I guess I'll just ask why.

[Forkboy]

23. Just my opinion

based on what I've watched over the years here at DU.

[WilliamPitt]

25. Fair enough

In my opinion, since we're sharing, you strike me as a particularly bitter person. That makes me sad for you. I wouldn't want to be the way you are. I hope things get better for you someday.

[Forkboy]

33. And that's fair enough as well

I dont find joy in being alive and seeing this suffering.I dont see it as a glorious struggle that gives my life meaning.I see it as just plain needless suffering.

[WilliamPitt]

47. So why are you here?

To wallow in the pain? To attack others who are dedicated to trying to stop it?

I don't take joy in seeing any suffering, either. But given what we are up against, I am sure as hell going to try to whip my own self up in order to cope with it and try to do something about it, and maybe take as many people with me as I can manage.

Or maybe I should just post one-liners and be depressed.

[WilliamPitt]

53. *crickets*

[Forkboy]

63. I dont need to work myself up

As for being depressed? Yes,I'm chronically depressed.It's not very fun,and suicide crosses my mind on a regular basis.I wish it were different,but it's not.It hasn't stopped me from doing what I've done though.

To attack others who are dedicated to trying to stop it?

But that's exactly what you keep doing.As I said,you dont know who does what,yet you attack them for not "getting things done".I bet a lot of posters in GD are just as dedicated as you.People do things in different ways.Not everyone wants to write,not everyone wants to march,not everyone wants to write their reps,etc. Dont assume you're the only one in the fight :shrug:

[Forkboy]

66. *crickets*

It's been 2 minutes...where's your response!?!?! :silly:

[WilliamPitt]

71. LOL...post 70

[Forkboy]

76. see it....sorry

:)

[Name removed]

35. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Forkboy]

37. I love you too

[xultar]

45. I thought in some respects I was being kinda funny. I need to reevaluate

my sense of humor.

I apologize if I offended.

[jswill]

137. In search of a heart.

Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain!

[4morewars]

4. "May You Live in Interesting Times"

Is an old Chinese saying, I'm not sure if it's a blessing or a curse. I suppose it's both, a blurse !

[tavalon]

61. It's definitely a blurse! n/t

[Neoma]

5. Bizarre peace with very happy times

but everyone loaded with questions & very opened viewed.
Clinton years would be comparable.

[jus_the_facts]

6. Oh your SOX won though.....

SIGH! :evilgrin:

:hi: :hug:

[OKthatsIT]

43. Yeah Mon...thangs do change, indeed

curses for those who doubt

[tavalon]

94. So did Kerry, BTW. n/t

[suffragette]

9. our time

Our time is what we do with it, and now is the time to stand and be counted.

[Kensingtonian]

11. Here, here, Will.

How's your jaw?

:toast:

[WilliamPitt]

14. Fine

I got a can of ravioli, wrapped with a bow on top, for Christmas from some friends of my mother. The whole thing has been elevated to farce, which suits me fine.

Welcome to DU, by the way.

:cheers:

[housewolf]

19. What else did you get?

Bet it was better than what I got.

:P

[WilliamPitt]

22. A book on Shakespeare

and a little lamp for my computer monitor to cut the glare.

Not bad. :)

[housewolf]

30. Hey, you did good then!

You know Will, I owe you a debt of gratitude. Back about two years ago, I was going totally nuts trying to figure out the reasoning behind going into Iraq. I spend days non-stop on the computer, trying to figure it out. One of those days I came upon an article you wrote about how you could possibly explain the whole thing to your daughter, how the neo-cons had hijacked the administration and their philosophy and background. It was the first piece of the puzzle that I found that made a bit of sense to me about the whole thing.

You've been helping me and others try to make sense of the whole thing ever since. Keep up the good work, you have the gift of a voice that reaches people and shines some light of the truth into the darkness.

[WilliamPitt]

32. Hrmmm

Not to take away from anything, but are you sure it was me you read? I don't have a daughter.

[housewolf]

36. No daughter

Yes, I saw that below where you said you didn't have a daughter. Perhaps I am not remembering that part correctly, but it was definitely a piece that you wrote. Anyway, it helped, in those days.

[WilliamPitt]

40. Glad to hear it

and thank you. :toast:

[tavalon]

62. I'm so glad

If the DUers did know your address (referring to another thread) you would have been able to eat that crap for the rest of your life! Lol

[illflem]

12. Since there isn't anything we can do about the time in history

we are born it has to great and we should all make the most of it.

[pnorman]

17. A subtle Chinese curse is reputed to be:

"May you live in interesting times". But in a way, you're right; it gives some purpose to my few remaining years. Having far fewer hostages to reprisal than many here (eg: no draft-age children, or positions and/or "social standing" to be driven from), I can do my bit to raise righteous HELL.

pnorman

[Old Mouse]

24. interesting times is a CURSE

I did not want to participate in a great fight. I wanted the illusion of financial security for my children and participation in some small but meaningful work toward the eventual attrition of social inadequacy.

But now I have no choice but to do everything within my limited ability to help those protecting the democracy of the United States, but I wish this wasn't so. So much rising ignorance, hate and suffering is difficult to absorb.

Sure, sure... all is as it should be, but Confucianism is a bitch.

[WilliamPitt]

27. You wanted an illusion?

Such a desire was doomed to fall apart at some point. Better, perhaps, to struggle for a slice of reality than to settle for an illusion comprised of smoke, mirrors and rhetoric.

But that is my opinion. I have no children, and can understand why you feel that way.

[Old Mouse]

34. To die with the illusion intact

is the best any parent can hope for! How else can we balance the need for them to be a complete success yet never stop needing us?

Reality comes in layers, not slices. You pick the level you're comfortable with, or it picks you... I haven't worked that part out yet.

[WilliamPitt]

42. To die with the illusion intact

is musical chairs. Sooner or later the music stops, and somebody's kids wind up standing there with nowhere to go. That seems to be our lot, and we can either be bitter about it or fight it. That's all I'm saying.

[EFerrari]

46. More, I think. There's been a collective decision to stand and

fight. Time for bitterness is a past luxury.

Is a good time. We haven't seen anything like this since God was a child. Buckle up.

[Old Mouse]

97. It's all illusion

I just wanted to pick the one I stuck with.

Some of us were deliberately ignoring the human condition, comfortable in the art of joyful participation. Now the conflict has escalated until ascendance or fight are the only choices, and unfortunately I haven't talent for ascendance.

I don't like the stakes or the odds. I don't like the lack of choice recognition of consequences brings. Any time not dead is a good time to be alive, but this work will involve unpleasantness as yet unappreciated. To me, this conflict is neither romantic nor fun - it is mandatory. That's all I'm saying.

But at least the company is excellent.

[tavalon]

64. I hope my mother never hoped that for me

I will never know as she died when I was eight, but it took me until I was in my early thirties to peel away most of the illusion. The life I have after the illusion is in some ways more painful, but overall, much better, much richer, much more authentic.

[WilliamPitt]

72. Exactly

[mordarlar]

103. My greatest fear...

is that i might not be here to fight the battles for my young children. I do not want any illusion. I want to know exactly what it is i am facing. I want to know exactly who has my back. And i will fight till i cannot stand. And then i will continue fighting.

My daughter just came out to tell me of a nightmare. She is walking with her grandmother the birds freeze where they are in the air. As they fall to the ground around them a young man turns to them and smiles wickedly. My mother usually a mild sort, covers my daughter and begins to scream at the man. She takes my daughter and runs them away.

Interesting timing.

I can face near anything. The one thing i cannot face, is my children suffering with out me there to defend or comfort them.

[FloridaCrat]

120. Peace Patriot, bravo for the truth in your words - Pravda n/t

[seito]

26. I would prefer to not have to do battle

I would prefer to live in a world where the future is secure. I would prefer to live in a world where our children are not drafted into unholy wars, and where faith and trust in our government is still warranted.

Alas, we must play the hand that we are dealt and it appears that history is calling upon us. While I do not welcome this fight, I will not shirk from it.

I stand with those battling for truth and freedom. I am in for the long fight, because I feel there is no other choice. It is a great time to reflect on exactly what being an American really means and what we are willing to sacrifice to preserve this Nation and our freedom.

[WilliamPitt]

29. At no time in history has the future been secure

It has never happened. Ever. The differential has been, simply, whether the people have been aware of that or not.

The Romans felt secure, and then Honorius saw the Visigoths come over the seventh hill.

The walls of Troy lent a feeling of security, until Hector fell.

The comfortable during Eisenhower's time were secure, until their children raised hell.

There has never been absolute security. The differential has been, simply, whether the people have been aware of that or not. When the people are aware, they can fix it.

[EFerrari]

38. If we were so damn secure, why did they keep making me get

under my schooldesk?

That protective layer of old gum was our Star Wars.

lol

[seito]

48. Fair enough

I agree. History has a way of repeating itself. Certain generations get a pass, while others must pay the price. Now, it seems that it is our turn.

Knowledge is a great thing that carries with it awesome responsibility. I feel blessed to be one of the few people that know the truth, and I will not take that knowledge for granted.

That being said, I wish that it had not come to this.

[WilliamPitt]

49. "I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened."

Films can be instructive. Oh yeah, books, too. :)

Cheers.

:toast:

[seito]

50. Here's to the good fight

:toast:

[WilliamPitt]

51. Indeed

:toast:

[housewolf]

58. "The day may come

when mankind is beaten and humbled and has no will to stand. But that day is not THIS day. THIS day we FIGHT!"

[mordarlar]

105. mmm.... :) Aragorn n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

68. "Always after a defeat and a respite, the Shadow

takes another shape and grows again."

"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do the the time that is given us. And already, Frodo, our time is beginning to look black. The Enemy is fast becoming very strong. His plans are far from ripe, I think, but they are ripening. We shall be hard put to it. We should be very hard put to it, even it it were not for this dreadful chance."

(Prefer the books myself :). )

[tavalon]

67. Exactly!

We are blessed in a weird sort of way to have had the illusion removed. We are part of the reality based community and that is a good thing.

Of course, it took me seven years of therapy to embrace the realities, inner and outer.

[preciousdove]

28. Dammit our grandparents already won these battles!

Minnesota used to have
* the best health care
* a progressive prison system
* courts that did not send drug dealers girlfriends to prison for 10 years while letting the dealer get out in 19 mos.
* higher education that was available to most
* jobs that payed living wages with benefits
* utility companies in the state that were regulated
* a social service structure so that nobody was starving or homeless except by choice
* fair and clean elections
* the majority of people treated each other with civility
* churches who thought that they should do something about making life on earth better and were not in everyones bedrooms and trying to overturn the Constitution.
* the promise of social security
* media that printed news you needed to know and at least tried to look balanced.
* Most Republicans were not fascists or crooks.
* A Democratic party that was representing people not corporations.
* Some of the best public schools in the country
* Private schools who tried to give as good an education as public.
* A deep understanding of "public good" and the need and will to support it with taxes.
*And Norm Coleman was still in NY
* National Guard was not the first called up for overseas they were to protect the state.
* No draft.

No I do not think this is a great time to be alive! And what are you high on because I want some.

[WilliamPitt]

44. Lack of sleep

[murielm99]

95. I understand.

I have already lived in interesting times.

I saw the first Kennedy assassinated at fifteen.

I lived through the civil rights, Viet Nam and Watergate years.

I raised my children to understand history. I raised them never to forget their roots in a union and Democratic family. I raised them to be activists when necessary.

But I was relieved that they came of age during the Clinton years. What parent does not want things to be easier for their children? I did not want them to live in interesting times.

I suppose I will die on my way to a county Democratic committee meeting, writing another letter to the editor, or heading to Washington for another march. I will die disgusted that my children will be fighting for what we thought we had already won. Interesting times have made me tired and old.

[Silver Gaia]

99. I hear you, muriel...

Quote: "I will die disgusted that my children will be fighting for what we thought we had already won. Interesting times have made me tired and old."

I, too, remember... I'm not disagreeing with the gist of this thread, and I'm still fighting, but it is rather dismaying to find ourselves fighting the same old battles all over again--as you say, battles we thought we had already won. I also had hopes that I would be leaving my daughter a better world, and maybe, just maybe, when all is said and done, that WILL be so. The difference is that she must now fight alongside me, when all I wanted was for her not to have to struggle as I've had to. But I will never give up, and I will never allow myself to lose hope. I'm too tired just now to post much more, but did want to acknowledge your statement as valid to me.

[gumby]

54. We're still up at this hour?

"Interesting times?" Been there, done that.

I've seen the local police become the instruments of National policy and beat people's heads in. It goes on......

However, those times were a skip down the Primrose Lane to what we face now. "Interesting Times?" No, these are Deadly Times.

Bush has enveloped the world in a Cult of Death. Many will suffer and many will die. Every day that I can survive is a sort-of-great-day.

Utopia is what the Cult of Death is now offering.

Most people in this country have no idea of what we are talking about. Sad, really sad.

[tavalon]

56. You are a romantic, just like me

When I was 14 (about a million years ago, it seems) I read The Diary of Anne Frank. I was a raging idealist back then and I knew that had I been in Germany (or any surrounding country) during Hitler's reign that I would have done the right thing. Little did I know that a couple of decades later, I would be faced with a somewhat similar circumstance. I spent the first year (2001 for me) realizing that it's hard to see so clearly when one's nose is pressed against the glass rather than having the clarity of history's distance. Luckily, it's hard but not impossible and I know now what is to be done and I am doing it.

It is a painful but noble time. I wholeheartedly agree, Will.

Edit: for bad spelling. Screw the grammar

[Raksha]

60. Spoken like a true warrior. Thank you!!!

[Freddie Stubbs]

82. Reminds me of an old Chinese CURSE:

"May you live in interesting times."

[roenyc]

96. Um.... i really liked the 60's early 70's

yeah, really good music. (i was child of course)NO clear channel!! when the worst of all republicans was Nixon.

great TV. Freedom of speech. the civil rights movement the womans movement all came to pass. by 1970 we almost had Mariana legal. we were free. we had an awful war and being lied to by republicans yet again. but we had hope.

and most important we still had a free press. and brave reporters.

Watching what happened as Reagan took office and started his neo-con BS (who knew?)and ignored AIDS and the poor and then the Iran/contra mess. and de-regulation. that was it for us.

OK, i am glad to have gone through all those times in order to know that right now we are in serious trouble.

that we are in the fight of our lifetime. and many people my age and older remember the fight of the 60's and 70's and will fight right next to your generation to bring democracy back to this country. i was too young in the 60's to make a real difference but now i can help and i will.

what is happening right now is so frightening mostly because we have lost the media.

being alive no matter when is wonderful. the alternative kind of sucks. ya know?

[Peace Patriot]

98. History is tapping us on the shoulder...

...(or, more accurately, knocking us upside the head), and asking us to save the great democracy that we have benefited from, and to pass it along to the future. That is the great task we have been given. It is both a burden and a joy.

I never thought it would come to this either. But it has. We have lost our right to vote and our first goal must be to get it back. Without it, we are nearly powerless. It is fundamental. Part of that effort is challenging this fraud of an election in every way possible with whatever allies we can muster.

It is not a matter of winning or losing. I differ with you there, Will--putting it that way--although I understand the need to be prepared for setbacks, and also wary of "victory." Our freedom has been steadily eroded over the last 20 years, ending in our loss of the right to vote, and it will not be recovered overnight. We are in for a long struggle--very like the labor struggles of the early 1900s, and the civil rights movement of the mid-1900s (at least 50 years of struggle).

You can't tot up "victories" and "defeats" in such a struggle. EVERY ACTION that you perform toward restoring democracy is a victory--no matter its immediate outcome.

This is a matter of justice, and of the fundamental agreements that create our society.

Do you call it a "defeat" if you're black in Alabama in 1965, and you organize a march down to the county courthouse to register to vote, and you get attacked by white thugs and prevented from reaching your goal?

You didn't GET to the courthouse. You didn't accomplish registering to vote. But, by God, you have won the bigger, longer term struggle, merely by showing your face and marching, and even by getting attacked, and by persisting.

Our first task, after challenging the election, will be to dump the Diebold machines into Boston Harbor (so to speak--or maybe even literally!). We must achieve, a) a paper receipt for every vote, and b) open source code--or paper ballot and hand counts (probably the best alternative). It has to be done locally, state by state, A.S.A.P., and while we still have the power. (Congress isn't going to be helpful.) This may be easier than we think--most people would agree with it.

If we can do that--if we can insure an honest election--then I have no doubt whatever that we will elect a progressive Congress in '06. BushCons cannot win an honest election. And by that time people will be very, very fed up with them. But electing a progressive Congress really isn't the point. The point is "consent of the people." Real consent.

We cannot rely on leaders (John Kerry or anyone else). We must restore democracy ourselves. I hear a lot of complaints on this board about this or that politician not stepping up. And I certainly think it's okay to criticize politicians, and to prod them to do the right thing. But behind some of these complaints seems to be a desire for someone else to save our democracy. It just can't happen that way. It is ours, and we must reclaim it.

Also, leaders can get clay feet--or be assassinated. I've seen quite enough of the latter in my lifetime to be wary of putting our hopes of salvation in some leader. In my youth, we were stripped of ALL of our great progressive leaders in the space of five years, 1963 to 1968. It was devastating. I don't think the American Left has ever recovered...

...until now. And this is why I feel joy. During this election campaign, I saw things happening that I have never before seen in my lifetime of political activism:

1. The unprecedented cooperation of all grass roots groups and the Democratic Party leadership to oust Bush Inc.--the unity on the progressive side was extraordinary! 2. A palpable desire of ordinary people to get rid of Bush, and their voting in huge numbers to do so--they saw through all the Bush B.S., despite the Iron Curtain of corporate news. 3. A rediscovery of what we believe in, what we think our democracy is all about, and re-referencing our Founding documents and the words of those who achieved that Revolution, and the ways that they sought to pass it down to us.

In short, what I saw was a genuine grass roots democracy movement happening right here in the tattered ol' USA. It's happened all over Europe, in South America, and some parts of Asia and Africa, and now it was happening here.

And the heart and soul of grass roots democracy is its relationship to leaders. In essence, the people lead the leaders, not the other way around (or, it's more balanced anyway). The people do not give up their sovereignty and their power to political leaders, as we have often done in this country over the last 20 to 30 years, so that now there is a huge gulf between us and them. They live in a bubble of power, on a plain above us all; most of them are millionaires, and they spend virtually all their time with rich people, seeking campaign contributions, with us peasants feeling grateful if they pay any attention at all to our issues.

I'm reminded of how the poor came out of their homes by the thousands in Venezuela a couple of years ago, and, by their presence in the streets around the presidential palace,
prevented a coup against their duly elected president Huge Chavez, by the oil oligarchy. They then came out in huge numbers to endorse his presidency (in a recall election) this year. And I love how they did it--banging drums and blowing horns throughout the poor neighborhoods on Election morning, to wake everybody up, to go vote. He owes them his presidency. That's how it should be. And such a movement--such a "consent of the people"--will survive almost anything, not because the leader is strong but because the people are strong, united and clear on what they want.

That's what we had here for a brief moment. It is the tragedy of this stolen election that all those voters and volunteers were deprived of the victory they deserved.

But such movements do not go away--no matter what hardships people have to endure. (Think of Nelson Mandela, 30 years in prison--living to see the end of Apartheid, and himself being elected president of South Africa!). Once the fire of democracy is lit in peoples' hearts, it burns brighter and longer than any other flame.

And what I witnessed over the last year was a RE-lighting of that flame, here--an extraordinary development. It had very nearly gone out, after the '00 election and all that followed (1st tax cut for the rich, Cheney energy meeting, Enron theft of California budget surplus, 9/11, no air cover over our capitol, thousands of innocents killed in Afghanistan, loss of Paul Wellstone, fixed elections in '02, 2nd tax cut for the rich, many lies, invasion of Iraq, at least a 100,000 innocent people killed by our bombs in Iraq, our own poor people and minorities used as cannon fodder for the oil wars, etc.)

But, finally, people fought back, organized, allowed no setbacks to dampen their enthusiasm, got out the vote, and threw the buggers out of office.

Although the corporate propaganda machine is doing its number again, on the American people--and doing it in spades--regarding this putrid election, I think we WILL recover from this blow, and the election fraud fight is how we are doing it. Word is spreading--just as it did on Iraq WMDs and other lies--despite the lid on the truth.

I think most of the people who are still uninformed (many) will be extremely relieved to find out what happened, and will strongly support anything that holds out the hope of ousting Bush Inc. They hate Bush Inc. They voted these people out. And they're still there!

I am one who has always marched against war. I have never seen a just war in my lifetime. I am moved by the death our country is inflicting on Iraqis, and on our own soldiers. It's come near to breaking my heart. I never, ever, ever, ever thought my country would do such a thing again, after Vietnam. I did not think we would have to fight this fight about unjust wars all over again.

But one thing the election fraud evidence has taught me is that it is NOT my country doing this terrible thing. It is an entity--Bush Inc.--that has seized power illegitimately. And we are all helpless to stop ANYTHING they are doing, because they are not beholden to us, as they should be; they are beholden to Diebold & Co.

I think that's good news, because it makes things very clear. That's WHY a war that 57% of the people disagree with is still going on. That's WHY a president whose approval rating is under 50%, two months after a supposed "mandate" election, can be shoving extreme policy after extreme policy down our throats. They owe Diebold, not us.

And it means that there IS something I can do: help restore our right to vote.

[La Femme]

102. Peace Patriot

Beautifully stated and very moving. Thank you.

[Silver Gaia]

104. Well said, Peace Patriot... thanks.

n/t

[Blue Christmas]

134. Peace Patriot - Can I Use This?

"EVERY ACTION that you perform toward restoring democracy is a victory--no matter its immediate outcome."

That is SUCH an inspiring and beautifully-stated notion. Do you mind if I use it as my DU signature?

[Not a Sheep]

100. A little romantic and melodramatic don't you think.....

The idea of being alive during great struggle may be a romantic and attractive notion but I don't necessarily agree that being involved means "you have power", "you have a say" and "can determine the fate of the planet". That's a bit melodramatic isn't it? Sure you have a say, but how many people are hearing you? How many people HAVE to hear you to affect the planet?

Those who have wealth, status and own the media have the real power. They have a huge advantage over you because they are people of great influence. They are people who are heard by more people than you and by more important people than you. If you want to be heard, you better have something to say that someone in power can not ignore. And good luck getting their ear.

I'd rather be alive in a time when the media did it's job and wasn't owned by basically 5 corporations.

I'd rather be alive in a time when more people read newspapers, followed the news and sat on their front porches and talked about ideas and shared opinions with neighbors.

I'd rather be alive in a time where the religious right did not have so much influence and control.

I'd rather be alive in a time when less people where influenced and blinded by religious belief and relied more on reason and fact.

If defeat is to come, then by all means stand on your feet. But be concious of the millions, if not billions, of people in the world who are standing beside you unaware, uninformed or simply unreachable.

[DemGa]

101. Wars, rumors of wars, and tsunamis

I say fight to the end. I am however, going to politely consent to a drug (urine search) test this morning as a prerequisite for employment, damn I hate fascism.

[roenyc]

106. Agreed

drug testing is so damn ridiculous. do you know they can now test with cotton swaps at once on demand when you go for a job. you dont even have time to "clean out" if i may use the term. wouldn't mind if they didn't include pot in the list or if they are going to include it then they should include alcohol. jmo.

[The Flaming Red Head]

107. I think it's a horrible time to live.

Without health care or access to treatment some of my closest childhood friends are dying or have already died. I expect the same thing to happen to me, and my child, and the kids that I call my children. I guess it depends on which half of society that you live in.

[Mr.Green93]

108. Grab a shovel

[KaliTracy]

109. This is a good time to be awake,

This is a good time to question, to challenge, to believe that changes can be made so that all will be able to have affordable healthcare, a living wage, a strong roof over their heads.

This is a good time to realize that united we are strong, and that no matter the outcome, the more people who unite with us, the more likely we will prevail. this is a time to fight the spin, and defeat it with truth and logic, even if the words you speak are ridiculed at first. even if the words you speak or write fall upon deaf ears.

I say yes, it is a good time to be alive, to fight for my child's rights, my neighbors' rights, and for all who have no rights now. this is a time to say I will not back down, will not pull the covers back over my head, will continue to speak even if those around me think I'm beating a dead horse.

I will stand for Democracy.

[bluedonkey]

110. Back in the days

of the mid/late 60's I thought it was great to be alive.To be part of the revolution we were about to start...Well,the revolution we had in mind didn't happen,but we made some changes.I fought hard for what I believed in and it earned me the disappoval of my father(whom I dearly loved and respected) and most of my family.No doubt,it had to be done!
I'm middle aged now and I feel like I'm fighting the same fight all over again,but this time my son's life is at stake,and for the first time in my life I am afraid!

But they won't find me on my knees....

[Chimpanzee]

111. Great message, WP!

Some people get a thrill out of looking at their kitchen after its finally spic and span after a huge family meal. Some get a thrill after spending all day on their yard or garden and observing the beauty they created. The greatest thrill that awaits us all is the day we make some major progess in taking our country back. They fun of that is it will take a long time and we will get to be thrilled incrementally over a long period of time. Yes, there will be some setbacks, but as long as we are moving inexorably forward, we can still appreciate the beauty we are creating, even while those among us are still blind to the tragedies before them.

[henslee]

113. I can imagine your same "take" being had by citizens during the French

Revolution, the Civil War, the Russian Revolution and World War II. We obvoiusly don't choose the times we are born into. Perhaps your romantic notions are in fact, an elaborate coping mechanism maifested by the irreprssible human spirit. Perhaps not.

I, myself, would have been happy living the peaceful life of a Romanian farmer like my great grandmother and father but unfortunately, the rise of Nazi Germany changed all that.

Right now, global warming and pollution threaten plant and animal species as well as the future of the planet itself. All this haunts me with a dread that overshadows any true sense of well being. This is compounded by the sad truth that as a sole super power, our once great democracy is an irresponsible, oppressive, corporately driven beast, derelict in its duty to lead and be the caretaker of the planet and the protector of true democracy.

No, I'd rather not live in these times, though I do enjoy dining out. But that's just me.

[truthpusher]

114. Will...off topic...are you working on another book? What's it about? n/t

[JD Lau]

115. I think I much prefer now over getting burned at the stake...

or stoned to death, or drowned for having opposing views.

But we are at a pretty close second.

And...on the other hand...this - as all things do - will pass.

I don't know if I, personally, will live long enough to see the pendulum swing back my way...or our way.

Always good, though, to see great positivity in the face of adversity.

Thanks!

Just my 2c.

[sportndandy]

116. May you be blessed to live in boring times.

Old jewish proverb

Course that being said, I am all the way on board. But if we are creating an earthquake, we might unleash a tsunami.

[babylonsister]

122. Personally, I'd settle for boring

as long as it was fair and just. Which, as we know, nothing is now.

[FloridaCrat]

117. Thank you for your constant inspiration, Will Pitt.

Your words are healing salve on my very heavy heart.

You know, John Kennedy had a really great speech writer - don't remember
his name, the one who encapsulated some of the most memorable
things I love about JFK as a leader. Look not at what your country can
do for you but ask what you can do for your country.

I love your last statement, "...if defeat is to come, then let it find me on my
feet, and not on my knees." Your words inspire me to be less impatient and
ask what things will I do today to take on more of this battle.

You didn't ask to be our leader, but your words give me hope for the future,
where I otherwise would have none. Thank for you letting me be just a
little optimistic today.

[s-cubed]

119. Thank you, all of you, for this inspiring thread.

It's inspiring to be able to see 2 people reach out to each other, Will and Forkboy, and try to reach an understanding. It's great to see the different perspectivies of people, of "interesting times" being a burden or a challenge.

I have only been here since the election. Before that, I griped and tried to do the right things in my own little world. I thought the election would rid us of the evil cabal, and once the unthinkable happened, I had to begin to act. Thanks to DU, I have found a way to channel my actions in productive ways.

I do think that some of us need scolding at times: the hysterical chickens of the last few days would have been funny, if it weren't so destructive. I would like more tolerance for different points of view around here. At core, we share the same principles, but disagree on how to get there.

To Forkboy, I suffered from depression for years. It almost destroyed my marriage (we went through lots of counselors), and my depression hurt our son as he was growing up. Evenutally, I did find the help I needed, though the right therapist and the right drugs. The struggle to overcome depression is worth it, but it is a struggle. :hug:

On one last note, if my homophobic, conservative brother in Dallas can vote for a Hispanic Democratic lesbian for sheriff, the Democratic party can rise again. (You know who he voted for for president).

[nomatrix]

144. Ted Sorenson

"Now the trumpet summons us again, not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need; not as a call to battle, though embattled we are, but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle, year in and year out, 'rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation,' a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny, poverty, disease, and war itself.

Can we forge against these enemies a grand and global alliance, North and South, East and West, that can assure a more fruitful life for all mankind? Will you join in that historic effort?

... The energy, the faith, the devotion which we bring to this endeavor will light our country and all who serve it and the glow from that fire can truly light the world.

And so, my fellow Americans: ask not what your country can do for you—ask what you can do for your country."

[FloridaCrat]

152. thanks for the info nomatrix - love your DU name!

And Thanks also for the full quote. It's just as appropriate, even more, today than in 1960.

[SmokingJacket]

121. Ask me again on my deathbed.

Seriously...

I think these are momentous times. It's tremendously exciting. That's why I'm sucked into DU every day. The challenge of living a meaningful life under an utterly corrupt government is so damn *interesting* -- and the forces that are changing the world are so huge, and some of them so invisible, that I can't wait to see how it all turns out.

These people are so bad, though. If I don't see something before I die -- if I don't see Bush doing a Nixon four-finger wave, or Cheney giving interviews from the Federal lock up, if I don't see this country having a least one fair and open election (little Xes on a piece of paper) -- I won't think it's worth it.

[Orsino]

123. I would rather live in a time...

...when all our energy didn't have to be spent in fighting for what is supposed to be our basic right (voting). I would rather fight *for* something, rather than against corporate undermining of the social structure.

There is so much we could be accomplishing, but no, Big Money is determined to pusue its power grab, and we must fight that instead.

[HomerRamone]

125. This is a difficult time to be alive

I'm working with the Coalition Against Election Fraud, who are staging a vigil in front of John Kerry's house (http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/kerry/articles/2004/12/29/group_holds_fast_to_kerry_cause_with_beacon_hill_vigil/), so I haven't given up, but I'd rather be living in a less trying time...

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/

Wednesday, December 29, 2004

Was 2004 the worst year in the history of the United States? Unlikely. All the years of slavery go into the Worst Year Hall of Fame, and there were some pretty bad years during the Civil War.

What about the worst year in the last 100? 1963 and 1968 were bad, as were all the late years of the Vietnam War. The difference was that there was hope in all those years, and at least the illusion that, despite everything, the United States was still a democracy with a government that believed that public policy could improve the lives of its citizens. The year 2004 saw the second crooked Presidential election in a row, with the degree - tens of thousands of recorded incidents - and systematic nature - by computers which intentionally lack evidence which could be used to judge the fairness of the voting - of the fraud unprecedented in American, and probably world, history. But that's not the worst part. The worst part is that it has become fashionable, even amongst those who call themselves liberals, not to complain, and even to belittle those people who are concerned by calling them conspiracy theorists. If it wasn't for the yeoman work of John Conyers, this whole sordid incident would have been swept under the rug <...> The Republicans are now so expert in perpetrating this kind of massive fraud, and there is so little opposition to it <...>

Oh, and what about the war? In the late years of the Vietnam War, if you can believe it, there were actually large protests against the war. That sort of thing is unimaginable now, as progressives appear to have completely given up <...> The utter hopelessness of opposition may turn out to be the main reason that 2004 is a real stinker. When you think of the hundred thousand or so dead Iraqis, the hundreds of billions of dollars gone down the drain, the permanent destruction of the image of the United States in the world, the thousands of dead or effectively dead American soldiers <...> I almost forgot . . Iraq is just the first war. By 'electing' Bush in 2004, the American people, in their wisdom, chose wars against Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, North Korea, Cuba, and probably a few others that have slipped my mind. If you think Iraq was easy, just wait for Iran, much, much more heavily armed with more modern weapons, with about three times the population of Iraq. That's going to be fun.

Guantanamo Bay? Abu Ghraib? All the domestic errors of the Bush Administration? The fact that the United States is now officially run by religious fruitcakes? Continuing assaults on the environment (which nobody seems to notice)? The ongoing process of ensuring that every American judge is a neanderthal? The lack of any opposition to any of this? The fact that Americans seem to accept and even approve of an immoral war? The fact that many of them think Bush is a good man? You don't even want to think about the economy, and the amazing size and rate of growth of the two deficits. <...> The draft of poor people to fight Bush's wars, the destruction of social security, and the complete rejigging of the tax system to impoverish the vast majority of the population to benefit a few of Bush's friends will probably make 2004 look good in comparison <...>

permanent link: http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2004/12/worst-year-in-american-history.html

archives: http://xymphora.blogspot.com/xymphora_archive.html

[liam97]

126. Will, I too disagree

I'd rather live in a utopia than see such deliberate death, destruction, poverty and injustice

[driver8]

149. I disagree, also

The fact that Americans have to fight for their votes to be counted is a crime. Half of this country does not have health care, thousands and thousands of innocent people are dying in a US invasion of Iraq, torture of prisoners, and a President who thinks he is doing the Lord's work and is willing to bring on Armageddon to do it.

What the hell is so great about these times??

[KoKo]

133. Kick..........

:kick:

[KoKo]

141. Kick..........

:kick:

[LongTomH]

127. Kick!

I want to give this thread a kick - I've got some things to add later - right now I'm at work!

Bye the way, anyone remember the exact wording of that quote that states whenever light is getting stronger, the darkness also increases in strength?

:kick:

[SueZhope]

128. Is this a great time to be alive ?

I cannot answer this for its the only time that I can relate to ......I can not imagine any other time for all I know is through my own life experience. I think its not about the time we are in but about were you are at the time. What's going on inside not what the outside looks like. Some people go through life blind and unconscious for them any time would be the same.

As for what's going on in the country at this time......I imagine many of us have not been very active in politics before . Myself I chose to close off from looking at it, it was to big and I felt very powerless. These days I can no longer close me eyes and ignore it , that’s why I have come here to DU and learn and be a part of helping to create change.

I often feel a little intimidated at DU..... I think its important for people to realize there are others like me who have ignored politics and were from the "nothing we can do about it make -up" I am also dyslexic and i struggle with the written word so letters do not come easy for me . I am grateful for all those who post them here to send.

we are all at a different place in our path in life , and our involvement in this fight.
Thanks to all of those who have been patient with political newbies like myself.

[KoKo]

129. No....it's a terrible time. The loss of Hope and Trust in our System of

Governing. The loss of Hope and Trust in our Legal System, Financial Institutions, our Constitution and Bill of Rights.

It's a terrible time....the worst in our History internally because we should know better by now having already gone through a Civil War and a World War plus other "engagements" which ended in sorrow and recrimination like Vietnam.

I agree with this article posted here, which perhaps resulted in your more optimistic post as counter? :shrug:

---------------------------

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=203&topic_id=206508&mesg_id=207122
What about the worst year in the last 100? 1963 and 1968 were bad, as were all the late years of the Vietnam War. The difference was that there was hope in all those years, and at least the illusion that, despite everything, the United States was still a democracy with a government that believed that public policy could improve the lives of its citizens. The year 2004 saw the second crooked Presidential election in a row, with the degree - tens of thousands of recorded incidents - and systematic nature - by computers which intentionally lack evidence which could be used to judge the fairness of the voting - of the fraud unprecedented in American, and probably world, history. But that's not the worst part. The worst part is that it has become fashionable, even amongst those who call themselves liberals, not to complain, and even to belittle those people who are concerned by calling them conspiracy theorists. If it wasn't for the yeoman work of John Conyers, this whole sordid incident would have been swept under the rug <...> The Republicans are now so expert in perpetrating this kind of massive fraud, and there is so little opposition to it <...>

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=203&topic_id=206508&mesg_id=207122

[FogerRox]

130. you can have my civil Liberties when you pry them from cold dead hands

Never felt so invigorated--I worked for Kerry in Miramar FL. FL was great but now I feel like --its just freakin great. The fight is on, the game is afoot.
If kerry stands up soon--- (IF IF IF --I know-) There will be an outpouring of support from the 60+ million who voted for him. A Vehicle for that support might be the prtests in DC And NYC. SInce Kip and I are organizing---- we might see an interesting conflouance (sp?) of events. Think ---Ukraine.

Kerry won---55% to 44%--dont forget it.
51capitalmarch.com ---picket CBS in NYC

[bunny planet]

132. I agree, I want very much to fight and struggle to get my country back and

help restore or rebuild democracy. I have been fighting and working hard in anyway I can. I do have three young children though, and the fight, if it lands me in jail, will be endangering their welfare. So..... I won't say I'm not worried about that possibility. In any other time in my life, I would have had faith that a mother of three, or anyone for that matter, who spoke out against the government would not have to be afraid of reprisal, it is after all a constitutional right to free speech. Not now though, I believe these thugs will do anything, including Kent-stating our asses, if we begin to speak out and gather in larger numbers. They are that corrupt and criminal. Any other parents out there that worry about what I'm expressing here?

[Gregorian]

135. 1890

That was the last days, in America at least.
The problem is not so much one we can control. The problem is overpopulation. Not a chimp emperor. Not something we can change. We are on an exponential curve that follows the laws of biology. We had the choice, like you said, to behave and realize limits. But we let greed rule. We fight not against rulers, but our own selves.
Of course it's all a perspective. From the first day there was a human, there was a dispute, a loss, a disappointment. And so it's been on and off since that time. And to have been the subject of Vlad The Impaler, that would have been the worst of times. But as a collective group, our best times were just before now. Sure, white, land owning, and male would have been preferred. But now we all fight for the scraps of what is left. There is no gurranteed future, as there always has been. The future is now out of focus.
Most people don't see this. Most people think it's just a character flaw in me. But I know. I am extremely vigilant. I have watched, and my ancesters have watched. There is one thing I am absolutely certain of in this life.
But I think you meant something political. So forgive me.

[blindpig]

139. agreed

Thanks for saying it better than I could. The ongoing and accelerating Great Extinction is just the cherry on my plate of grief.

[JoMama49]

136. Testosterone may be addictive, but it can also be

controlled! Remember, that's what is supposed to set us apart from the rest of the animal kingdom! We CAN control ours if we have so evolved.

But, I certainly agree with the rest of your statement, Mr. Pitt!

[wendypan]

138. Best post from you yet, Will

I've been struggling with myself on whether to move out of the country or not. I realize there are millions in this country who are decent people. But the neo-cons seem to crawl out like ants at a picnic. And they are so bitter and mean! It's like they have been infrested with a kind of bloodlust.

To think they've convinced honest, upright people that torture is okay...that an entire portion of the world who believes in a different religion, Islam, is evil and will kill children in Iowa. they can't even concentrate on the real terrorists! Everyone is a terrorist!

And some of these conservatives are my relatives! It is so disheartening. Thank you for your words of hope and faith.

[area51]

140. umm...

It's not a great time to be alive if you can't get a job. I'd like to live in a time -- or a place -- where decent jobs are easy to come by.

[PATRICK]

142. From a different angle

It's a lousy time if you are in Iraq, unless you are a martyr insurgent.
It's also not so hot being doomed or slowly murdered by profiteers with tunnel vision and zero humanity, but plenty of delusional fantasy beliefs. When all good men are belittled and trivial asses exalted. When lies shout from the most modern conveniences while the truth crawls in primeval ditches. When institutional glory wears a dry soul pinched banker's visage, masking dry rot.

Interesting times. I prefer the the more nuanced sentiment of JFK. The waste is appalling, the humiliation of the species in its advanced tech and education and globalization is universally demeaning. It seems we either survive our goofiness or die dumb for nothing in particular.

In hindsight i begin to see the wisdom of Buddha regarding desire and emotions. In hindsight they appear destructive, trivial and plain wrong.
Life and reason are imperatives. Hard work indeed.

Bend the knee to the absolute craziest and dumbest and most evil of the human race? And call sh*t perfume for the soul? Forget it. I am an insurgent for the human promise, currently occupied by age old bloody failures of the discredited past. Let's make America what we thought it was and what it can be in the best hands for the truest aspirations of all decent people.

I prefer to be on this side with these people no matter what the odds. Mars also is looking attractive. I've been to Canada. I would like to make America safe for Canada too.

[KansDem]

143. Reminds me of Orson Wells' speech in "The Third Man..."

When, as Harry Lime, he says in post-WWII Vienna:

In Italy for thirty years under the Borges, they had warfare, terror, murder and bloodshed; but they produced Michelangelo, Leonardo di Vinci and the Renaissance. In Switzerland they had brotherly love; they had 500 years of democracy and peace, and what did that produce? The coo-coo-clock.

However, there are times I'd prefer just a little coo-coo-clock making...:(

[kitkat65]

145. I think we should show our dissent by writing

"contest the Ohio vote" on a $1 bill and ask three other like-minded people to do the same and have them ask three people and so on.

Get those bills circulating out there and they'll find out how many of us "kooks" are really out there.

[Pooka Fey]

146. You're a great writer, Will. n/t

[rzemanfl]

147. With all due respect

I liked the 1990's a lot more.

[nomatrix]

148. I'm thankful to be alive now, because of

people like you on DU who remind me to be grateful.

It doesn't take much after watching the coverage of the Tsunami catastrophe.

Still having aftershocks there, and I can NOT imagine looking around me and everything and everyone is gone.

One very interesting fact, they haven't been finding dead animals. Seems the animals knew intutively to go to higher ground. Survival involves instincts.

[drdon326]

151. Ditto...

excellent post.

[Time for change]

150. I partially agree with you

Although I wish I was able to contribute a lot more to this cause, any small part that I do contribute feels kind of exhiliarating, because I think that this is the most important thing in the world right now (trying to fight the vote fraud).

But by your line of reasoning, if we won and Kerry was inaugurated in January, then things wouldn't be as good any more, because we wouldn't have this cause to fight for any more. And I can't buy that.