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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:18 PM
Original message
Poll question: Assume Jan. 6th comes and goes with little or no Democratic action...
Next election, will you:
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:21 PM
Response to Original message
1. No. I refuse to assume a hypothetical that casts doubt on our own people.
Edited on Wed Dec-29-04 03:23 PM by ClassWarrior
NGU.


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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
42. Precisely. (n/t)
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SueZhope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. I will just
:cry: :cry: :cry:
me a river..
Then decide what to do
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:31 PM
Response to Original message
3. These may be the disheartening alternatives people think
they have- which is alarming. What happened to change of party leadership and advisers? Change of strategical planning and issues? To getting across the board reform movements started to take abandoned bipartisanship out of the poisoned arena altogether? To getting real skilled candidates we CAN back with some expectation of competence and sincerity at least?

When it descends into the simple moping choices the issue seems to be depression or slogging on instead of real choices, more of a mood than a decision.

The Greens are green too when it comes to hardball politics. That has been one of several fatal flaws with small parties, but for once we have a third party getting some real seats on the local level. The Dems should be engaging in some novel parliamentarian coalition building if they don't want to simply umbrella the Green progressives falsely back into the superparty fold.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
4. Here's why I ask...
Ever since Dubya seized power in 2001, time and again critical votes have come with great hopes on our side - only to have those hopes dashed as our Democratic leaders capitulated.

But I sense that this time it's different. I think that people understand that if our leaders won't fight for fair elections, activism on their behalf is kind of pointless.
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. People understand that activism is pointless??
Wow, that's a big set of assumptions you're foisting upon us. Based upon your "sense."

NGU.


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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. "if our leaders won't fight for fair elections"...
Big IF. But if they won't, then, yeah, activism on their behalf is pointless
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Activism on their behalf?
Edited on Wed Dec-29-04 04:10 PM by ClassWarrior
Huh? If our leaders won't fight, then activism is more important than ever. But I refuse to accept a hypothetical that casts doubt on our own people, when the doubt and mistrust belong with the neanderthals of the Radical RW.

By the way, define "little or no Democratic action." Who gets to be the judge of "little or no?"

NGU.


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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Since I'm not an enormous thought leader, my definition only speaks...
for myself. And for myself, I'll be looking for the usual "token resistance" coming from the one or two Senators who are deemed "safe with that kind of position".

But that's just me.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #11
24. It's about YOUR vote. We the People.
Activism is the only way. You can't just sit back and expect everything to go to plan. Democracy: It's hard work!

:)
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electropop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #4
14. I agree
Activism for people who won't fight is activism for lazy losers. They do us no good if they don't take office, despite having popular support. They do us no good if their positions are so tepid and subtle that they don't reframe the debate. The Greens and Nader (sometime partners) have the advantage that they aren't afraid to speak their minds - what do they have to lose? Seeing what they've accomplished across Europe, in a variety of challenging political environments, gives encouragement that change can happen here too. It's becoming clear that change won't happen when the progressive party (Dems) seems intent on losing ground, preferring to seem like "good losers" rather than "angry winners".
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seito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
6. And the purpose of this poll is?
I am in for the long fight, REGARDLESS of what anyone does on any given date.
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
20. I have mirrored you post somewhere Sieto.
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The Gigmeister Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #6
29. Exactly RIGHT!!
Some people just aren't cut-out for politics.
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wolfgirl Donating Member (950 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:36 PM
Response to Original message
7. Target replacement of Dems failing to act
as well as replacing Repubs. They have got to be stopped or we lose everything!
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 07:20 AM
Response to Reply #7
33. And if *they* count the votes, we replace them how?
:shrug:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:40 PM
Response to Original message
8. It's a "line in the Sand." A time we will know for sure what we are up
against in our own Party. It will be the revealing momemt and that's why it's so important that someone from both Houses of Congress stand up. Those of us who have been active for the last four years, need to know. Exposing Election 2000 has taken a toll on so many out there. We need to know if our party stands behind us, in front of us, and FOR us.


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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. So you're saying you'll know that day if they're our friends...
...or our enemies?? Hmmmmm... funny... I thought the Radical RW were our enemies.

NGU.


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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. I've decided that I'm part of Progressive Democrats of America..
and Democracy for America.

As Paul Wellstone expressed, as well as Howard Dean, 'I'm in the Democratic Wing of the Democratic Party,' or something to that effect. I've decided to focus on participation in this mini-party of mine, and if the Democratic party wants my $, it will have to go through Howard Dean. Recognize progressives and work with them. Not to say that I won't cooperate in the election of a Democratic Party candidate. Of course I will. But, I will be distinguished from the Rethuglican-liters, and proudly identified as a liberal/progressive.
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Yep. Well put...
:thumbsup:
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Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 04:01 PM
Response to Original message
15. Interesting. "Work just as hard as ever for Democratic candidates"...
was the first choice, but the big winner is "None of the above".

Is there a clear choice I'm missing, or is it a case of "the very idea is so horrible, I refuse to even think about it." :shrug:
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ClassWarrior Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 04:09 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. See post #1.
NGU.


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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 04:14 PM
Response to Original message
18. Wait to see how the DNC chair race goes
Inaction from the Democrats on January 6 was a foregone conclusion on November 3rd.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. How can you say that Walt with all that's going on in Ohio? With the
actions by the "GLIB's" and so many here on DU...working on Ohio...and faxing, phoning, spreading info all around to MSM and everyone we know who can help us? Plus money donated to recount efforts.

Things have changed "on the ground" since Nov. 3rd. If you mean the DNC/DLC then I agree with you...but we here on this Board aren't the DLC and although we have many disgruntled DNC supporters...even they are the "activist" wing of the DNC.

:shrug:
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 04:40 PM
Response to Original message
19. Everything for John Conyers & the congressmen supporting him.
Nothing for the rest.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
22. We have lost our right to vote.
Our democracy is hanging by the thinnest of threads. BushCon companies OWN the election system (secret proprietary source code running the vote tabulation machines; no paper trail in a third of the country)--in addition to owning the presidency, the Congress, the courts and the media. (Germany 1934, consolidation of all state power.)

We really need to get this through our heads. Voting doesn't matter in these circumstances. WE WILL NEVER ELECT A PROGRESSIVE PRESIDENT OR CONGRESS EVER AGAIN, unless we can get this changed NOW.

It CAN be done. Election rules are still largely a state matter. And most people would agree that, a) a paper receipt for every vote, and b) open source code, are sensible and just (if not paper ballot and hand counts--the best solution).

We need highly focused local and state groups to get this done NOW. (Congress isn't going to be helpful!)

This must be Project #2, after the election fraud fight--which of course feeds into it. The more people who realize the election was stolen by electronic means, the more will be outraged and demand change, and support our efforts to change it. Kerry voters are the majority! --nationwide, in many big states, and probably ALSO in a lot of "red" states that, in reality, turned "blue" on 11/2. So we DO have the power to get transparent elections, if we act NOW.

The election fraud challenge--whatever its outcome--is critical to recovering our election system, because it is a very good way to inform Kerry voters what happened.

Another thing we really need to understand is that the Democratic leadership for the most part acquiesced in the BushCons owning the election system. They should have screamed bloody murder about this. They should have burned down the Capitol to get it changed.

Why they didn't, I can't fathom. Truly, it's a mystery. At the very least, they should have yelled about it on the campaign trail, and, for godssake, WARNED the voters and the volunteers.

Horror scenario #8978765: BushCons introduce legislation to mandate electronic, paperless voting in the entire country, with BushCon companies owning the secret source code that runs the machines. What power do we have to stop them?

A few--maybe many--Democrats object. They are knocked over like so many bowling pins. And that's where they stay. Flat out on the ground, spinning around. THEY HAVE NO POWER TO STOP IT. WE HAVE NO POWER TO STOP IT.

Ridicule? Embarrassment? Publicity? Outraged voters? Outraged communities? A hundred thousand letters to Congress? Ha. The BushCons are immune to public opinion, for the very reason that they own the election system itself, and can produce any result they wish. And they can make it total control if they want to, and select who the token opposition (our representatives) are going to be.

They know they can't win an honest election. They will hang onto hackable voting with tooth and claw, and extend it, if they decide to.

WE MUST GET THIS CHANGED AT THE STATE LEVEL NOW! WE MUST! It's our last remaining right, and they have taken it away. It's fundamental to everything else. THERE IS NO OTHER ISSUE OF IMPORTANCE!

In my estimation, our democracy and our country are in so much trouble, it doesn't matter how you vote, who you support, or what party you register with--except for how it may affect, right now, the struggle to recover our right to vote.

A few weeks ago, I pledged to abandon my forty year membership in the Democratic Party, and to re-register Green, on Jan. 6, if the Democrats do not strongly challenge this election and defend our right to vote.

I wanted to punish them for their catastrophic failure of leadership on the election system, and for their seeming obliviousness to what it means: the END of our democracy.

I think most Democratic leaders exist in a bubble of money and power, apart from the rest of us, and think they will be safe no matter what the BushCons DO to the rest of us--they will be preserved as the token and appearance of democracy. That's what some of them think, anyway, in my opinion. They are protecting fiefdoms and their own hides. And they are beyond worthless--they are a positive menace--as our spokespeople and representatives.

So there is much reason to abandon the Democrats, and to punish them resoundingly--and, in time-honored fashion in American politics, create a third party, or join the Green Party and help expand it.

Time-honored, yes. But this, today, is an extremely unusual circumstance. Our loss of the right to vote is a CATASTROPHE. It MUST be reversed. And gaining allies and forming coalitions to get that done is of first importance.

Another consideration: One of the chief factors in the undoing of the German liberal democracy in the early 1930s was the fracturing of the Left. It's possible that the German communists of that era did not have the best of motives (they were allied with Russia). But the fighting between the socialists and the communists, and the fractures among all left and progressive parties, disabled the government--the vacuum into which Hitler stepped.

There were also serious economic factors, and post WWI demoralization-- but if the liberal government had been able to hold things together, Hitler might not have gained the foothold that he did in legitimate government. He then crushed the entire Left, and Center, and even the Right. No more parties. No more democracy. And embarked on his extremist course.

It's happening somewhat differently here (and we ARE a quite different country in many ways--not nearly so easy to control), but that ineptness and in-fighting on the Left haunts me.

You can be sure some of it was instigated by Hitler's operatives (divide and conquer). But not all of it. Some was just the normal workings of democracy (free minds always argue more)--but not all of it. There seem to have been no wise, steady people who could keep the progressive majority focused and unified.

I think the lesson is that great care should be taken to STRATEGIZE our activities, especially internal criticism, and circular firing squad eruptions--is it constructive? does it serve our goals? is it motivating and inspiring people? is it petty and egotistical? is it purely emotional venting, or reasonable and useful?

We here in the U.S. are at the vortex of ill-intended and outright evil forces that are bent on dominating and shutting us up, and sucking us dry. Our power to stop this fascist coup, and all that it is doing to the rest of the world, is well understood by the fascists themselves. That's why they are doing what they're doing--why they set up a fraudulent, non-transparent election system; why they propagandize us; why they bother with us at all. They want our money and our natural resources. They are already feeding like parasites off of our tremendous creativity and industriousness. But most of all they want and need to coopt our power as citizens, and they are well on their way to doing so.

There is no other country in the world in which the re-establishment of democracy is so vital, as it is here.

It's very difficult to see out of this vortex--to see what we're in the middle of. It's a hurricane-force, swirling, dizzying spin downwards. We need to give a lot of thought to keeping each other from drowning, preventing panic, and looking for that stick, that raft, that life-preserver, or that inner strength, that can get us out of the vortex, and back into a calmer, saner world.

I think that saving object is our right to vote. We must hang onto it for dear life.








___________

"Inaction from the Democrats on January 6 was a foregone conclusion on November 3rd."--Walt Starr

Well, we'll see about that. Reports seem to say otherwise--that there WILL be a challenge.

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OmmmSweetOmmm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #22
36. Well said PeacePatriot. I voted for none of the above. Although
I am thinking of the Green Party, no party will be relevant as all things are in place for America to be Amerika on January 20 unless something is done to overturn this election.
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
23. Why is it the Dems fault?
Why isn't the system's fault? Or the BFEE's fault? Or the Greens fault (cough) Nader 2000 (cough)? Why is it crap on the Dems day?
I voted for: Continue to work as hard as ever for the Dems, but I will also work as hard for voting reform. How do you know what the outcome should be if you can't count the damn votes? Nope, not going anywhere. The long haul is for me, a dyed-in the-wool Democrat. So sue me... :)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Because it IS the Dem's fault...can't lay that on anyone else's doorstep..
sadly....:-(
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Patsy Stone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. Peace
Go, believe that. There's still an Independent Senator in there you know. How are you doing on getting him to stand up? Is he going to?
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:16 PM
Response to Reply #26
27. I BELIEVE there WILL Be a Senator who stands up for US! I believe!
I do...:shrug:
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roenyc Donating Member (824 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #25
35. because the Dem's stood by
while the fire burned out of control. they didn't bring any water.

makes you wonder how they allowed this election to take place knowing that it could be easily stolen.

i realize that two members of congress held up the bill for the paper ballots. but that should have been a ember starting to burn right there. its just to strange.

the most important election in our lifetime and its left to chance. the voting machine maker says he is a shrub supporter! add another ember. will deliver Ohio. more embers. Katherine Blackwell enters the fray. we now have a fire.

2002 election proved to be inaccurate. no one says a word. something isn't right. either the Dem's dont think voting is important to make an issue out of and get the news to cover it BEFORE the election in order to make a change, or they dont care.

its very frustrating and the entire government is responsible. especially that silly voters rights act. that meant nothing. as we saw across the country.

and do you see any high profile democrats out there screaming? no i didn't think so.
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The Gigmeister Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:23 PM
Response to Original message
28. Anyone who answers anything but One is...
1) A disruptor.

2) A Green (Loser anyway...Who needs them?)

3) A Tinfoiler.


It's simple...

We came within a whisker of a win in a game we shouldn't have even been in after 9-11. In 2008, all we have to do is field a decent candidate and we sweep this thing.


ENOUGH OF THE FUCKING WHINING!!!


/Rant
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hippiechick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:26 PM
Response to Reply #28
30. Wow, aren't you the diplomatic one ?
:eyes: I sure won't be rushing to any meeting YOU'RE fronting.
And I suspect not alot of others will, either.

:hippie:
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The Gigmeister Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:32 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Fine!
I'm in this thing until the day I die!

There is ONE progressive party with any chance whatsoever in defeating the fascists...

THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY!!


And I, for one, am tired of the party that I have supported, and the party that has supported me, for 20 years getting bashed to death.

This was one battle in the long war (That's POLITICS, people!!!) We don't need all these fringe party disruptors, defeatists and kooks...We need long term WINNERS!!! And I don't care if that opinion offends or not.

No offense intended towards you personally, of course.
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #28
37. This post is why we lose elections. Are you even old enough
to vote? Because you win elections by addition not subtraction. Greens aren't losers, we are, as long as we push people out with our arrogance.

We can't quit but we certainly can't blast everyone who disagrees with us as "losers."

We need to concentrate on how to add people to our party and how to make our party better from the inside out.

We have lost the South because we arrogantly look at people who go to church as "redneck hicks." Where is our tolerance? Where is our civility?

Not every church goer is a "fundie," not every church goer who generally disagrees with abortion would out law it. But I can tell you that every church goer and southerner who hears and sees us jeering at them like they are uneducated hicks will vote against us.

I have news for you, Southerners aren't uneducated hicks. Right now we have so alienated the South that we cannot even carry the states that our candidates are FROM in the south.

If we had carried Tennessee in 2000 none of your would be crying about how the election was stolen. If we had carried North Carolina and or Virginia the race would have been SOOO much closer or we would have won. BOTH of those states have Democratic Governors.

We need to do the hard work of looking at ourselves and stop chasing boogie men like Rove. Look in the mirror, look at posts like the one I'm responding to, this is the reason we are losing.

TC
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The Gigmeister Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 09:50 AM
Response to Reply #37
38. We're in agreement on reaching-out to others, but...
...Not the Greens. Not the ones here who do NOTHING but bash the Democratic Party and anyone to the Right of them (Which is everyone except for committed communists).

I understand what you're saying and appreciate the sentiment, but I'm tired of the Greens trying to tear our party down just because they have never won ANYTHING...And want to use some of our people to one day, MAYBE win a seat in congress...If they're LUCKY!
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. Thank you for your civil post. We have to reach out to the Greens
and use the one thing they have that we need: their votes.

I like your passion. Don't take what I say personally.

TC
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The Gigmeister Donating Member (331 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. No problem!
If we don't discuss our differences, we don't ever come up with any good ideas.

:)
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Truman01 Donating Member (733 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. I'm curious,
how old are you?

TC
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-29-04 08:27 PM
Response to Original message
31. I will blast our representatives - it's time for them to change - to do
their job. They can't rollover and vote for another Thomas-Scalia-Rehnquist=OConner or worse. They can't rollover at all. I will thoroughly investigate the Progressive agenda and will probably join. I will not support milk toasties with marshmallow rhetoric and agendas who echo the right wing.

I want leaders with guts. Our leaders have decades of doing their own thing. It's time they represent the people.

They are as guilty as the right wing and the right wing partners in the media for election fraud. They must pay the price. They must pony up to the constitution and the bill of rights. This is an absolute from anyone who hints that they want the DNC chair or an office. The DLC can disappear.

I will beieve in education and will try to contribute.

I will beg for more documentaries and will strive to help any group fight the conspriacy ridicule attacks.

I will try to convince others to fight to save their country.



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marions ghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Agreed--this is a turning point and we must hold our leaders accountable
I will support Conyers, Dean, Jackson, Kerry, Greens, Progressive Dems, new media, writers, filmmakers, computer security experts willing to speak out, groups working for voting reform--WHOEVER comes to the fore on the issues of vote theft. I don't care if it's perceived as patchwork support, or not unified behind a single candidate. I am right now willing to work for a single idea--fair elections. Vote theft in any form is undermining our democracy, and it is time to stop it.

You said it, Higher Class, we need leaders with guts. I believe there is a lot of support for anyone willing to stick their necks out on this. I'm giving them time to come forward...beyond Jan 6. If we think it's all over on that date, we really are wimps.

We are doing the right thing --in demanding attention to this issue from our leaders--now, not later. And we need to continue to bring this into focus for non-politicians also.
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dzika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-30-04 11:49 AM
Response to Original message
41. I selected "Please Specify" - I will work harder; I will find ways to
make a bigger impact *EVERYDAY*.
I am not waiting until Jan. 6
That day will come and go.
Regardless of what happens,
my conviction; my beliefs
will not change.

I'll work with blue people, red people, green people, purple people...

If they have an interest in
the end of tyranny,
freedom of information,
rights of individuals
and a respect for nature - then I want to help.

So far, organizations with these ideals have largely given up on North Carolina and my entire region of the county.

It's hard to support people that don't show up...

...but I'm not waiting for them either.
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