When is it time for a revolution?

[ShinerTX]

I'm sorry for being such a downer, but I'm miserable and depressed tonight. I haven't slept in almost two months. I can barely eat; I've lost ten pounds. My hopes are pinned on Jan. 6, but honestly, those hopes are slim. Kerry doesn't care about us. McAuliffe was in it for the money. Dean has no power or influence anymore. Jesse Jackson has lost credibilty. BBV and other groups seem to be playing on our hopes and taking our money for nothing. I'm facing a grim reality tonight, and it hurts.

But I remembered these words from the Declaration of Independence, and they give me hope:

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation."

My question: when is the time right for us to "dissolve the political bands" which connect us to * and declare OUR independence? When do we assume our own power and throw of the chains? When do we find our freedom again?

If Jan. 6 fails, is Jan. 7 going to become the new July 4?

[candy]

1. Good Lord----lighten up! This too shall pass.

[IdaBriggs]

3. WWII passed, too.

How many dead? Nothing to do but lighten up. :eyes:

[RevCheesehead]

31. IdaBriggs returns!

Hey, welcome back! :hi:

Maybe you've been back here for a while, but this is the first I've seen of you since the New Hampshire stuff got rolling. It's good to see your name again!

[IdaBriggs]

72. Thank you!!! :)

I've only been back a little bit last night, and earlier today -- first I was really involved in the recount stuff, then my father became ill, and my hard drive crashed. (Excuses, excuses! <smile>) I'm trying to recover from the burnout....I'm told my recent posts are a tad cynical. Sigh.... Hopefully I'll recover my good humor soon! It was so nice to read your cheerful greeting!!! :) Best, Ida

[RevCheesehead]

102. hey there, "Ida-nater!" (or dare I say IdaNader??)

Sorry I didn't get to respond until now - I'm on vacation, and just got to my parents' computer!

DU has been interesting since you've been gone. And for some reason, it's gotten particularly nasty in the last couple of weeks. Speculation has it that we're getting close to something big - hence the "ugly posts."

Don't you dare let them get you down!

Hope your father is doing better.
And make sure that YOU take care of YOU (nobody else really can do it for you!).

And again, thank you most sincerely for your extraordinary work. I think Eloriel said it best in her reply to your BBV post: There probably would not have been a recount, if not for Ida. She got Nader involved, and then Cobb joined in.

Who says one person can't make a difference? :)

[Stand and Fight]

15. "LIGHTEN UP"?!?

This too shall pass?

Give us all a frickin break! While I do not agree with the posters message, taking your stance is fool-hardy at best. It's that kind of lackadaisical attitude that has lead to absolutely nothing getting done in the past, and so long as people continue to have such a "take it easy " attitude, we shall find ourselves in an insane cycle. Get a grip!

[Left coast liberal]

26. Right on! They came here to vent and all we can say is lighten up?

Boy, with friends like these...

:eyes:

[lonestarnot]

46. Not lighten up! Brighten Up! Revolution occurring as we

post!

[anaxarchos]

61. Too true...

This is the largest Jacobin club I've ever seen... and digital to boot. Cross the divide between national conversation and local organization and 20 Karl Roves can't do nothin'.

Really no precident to this at all - virgin territory. Kind of a combination press and jungle telegram. And not just here.

No matter how proficient the pubs get at this, the natural democracy of this media will tend to favor democrats.

[lonestarnot]

68. YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!! WOOOOHOOOOO!!!!!

[Pacifist Patriot]

63. I do believe that is the attitude the neocons are counting on.

[Benhurst]

66. No, I think the reaction of the DLC was what they were counting on. NT

[lthuedk]

77. You're either in denial, or worse.

If more individuals realized this country is now in fascist control we could mobilize to begin our Resistance. Slighting the matter, or denying it's existence is precisely what Hitler depended on.

If its too much to ingest, don't imbibe. Go ahead, move with the flow.

[radio4progressives]

79. lighten up? EXCUSE ME????

That's the kind of comment only a typical privileged liberal would say.

[libertypirate]

2. Woah, downer sorry dude... check it out eh.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x208164

[slay]

4. I feel your pain

I'm all ready to run out and join the revolution. Unfortunately, there is no revolution to join yet. My advice is to be patient. Lets see if ANY Dems do the right thing and contest the election in the senate on Jan 6th. If they do not, then we know the fix was in and my guess is that things will start progressing rather rapidly on our side after that. :)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

7. You are right.....

We are the beginning of the revolution. Think of what that means.

[ShinerTX]

8. It means we carry a lot of responsibility on our shoulders.

[FogerRox]

58. Slay: But are ready to run out and BE THE REVOLUTION ?

Me thinks there is a bitty difference. Like I dont want to be the first one to fight --but if I see somebody else I jion in? Sorry to be soo hard and --well---- get out there and fight-

-I want you to organize your local folks and go picket the local CBS -NBS- or ABC affiliate, make signs--HOnk for Kerry--Kerry WOn---CBS wont cover ohio FRAUD----etc. That is your assignment. E-mail me upon completion.

jokin


[e-mail] /

[FogerRox]

59. Oh yeah I want pics too--ok -showing all the nice signs you made

My Mission: TARGET CBS

Join the protest @ CBS in NYC or protest in DC--If enough Peeps show @ CBS I will extend the efforts to other outlets, Like ABC & NBC.

Power to the People ! !! ! ! RIght On Brother KIP ! !! !

http://www.51capitalmarch.com /
[e-mail] /

[shoopnyc123]

5. Whoa...take a moment, breathe, and refocus...

...in the civil rights movement, it took YEARS. It's not about winning. As a black person, it sorta feels like this all the time, (not trying to pull a guilt trip).

It is about the process, and continuing the struggle. Yes, STRUGGLE. Struggle is good. Breaking old paradigms is tough. But, maturity arrives with the process. And it can be FUN also. Seeing the best in people you don't even fucking know. Now, THAT is cool.

[ShinerTX]

6. Very true.

I'm just frustrated and in a head bashing mood. :grr:

[spooked911]

11. I know how you feel to some extent

we do need a revolution of some sort. This country has gotten WAY off track in many ways.

I just don't have any good ideas for how we should proceed except that first we decide what we expect from our country.

[Chimpanzee]

9. Well, I think we are living in the 'immediate' because of the great

stakes in doing nothing. We are not powerless, and we are not the minority. The struggle may last longer than we'd like, but it is our responsibility, as aware human beings, to fight not only for ourselves, our family, and our neighbors, but for all the people of this earth. As Bush policies continue to ravage the earth, our natural environment and ecosphere, we must fight in every way possible. I tried being peaceful and fighting with my dollars. That apparently is not the answer. I await the signal to join the fight in earnest.

[Stand and Fight]

17. Struggle is good...

It is good so long as the cause is a worthy and realistic one. Struggling without purpose and without all possible passion and logic united as one is a futile exercise in the inane and the insane. This is radically different from the Civil Rights Movement -- in this case the media is not an ally, but very much entrenched in the enemy camp. To believe that this struggle is a matter of "years" and patience is to set ourselves up for failure. Plain and simple. You don't have to agree with me, but action makes things happen. Struggle without action is nothing more than the buzz of a fly to be swatted, and that is precisely what we shall allow to happen to ourselves if we take on lackadaisical attitudes. Struggle -- yes. But struggle with all the passion and logic that you can summon forth in yourself. Struggle with all your being to conjure up that same passion and logic in others. We're fighting a war here people -- a war of ideology, but a war no less. Furthermore, it is a cold Civil War in our country that is very much under way. How long shall it take before people are swayed from their slumber into righteous action against those who would seek to do away with the tenets of our Constitution and our very way of life? How long till we all throw off the shackles of the victimized mind, rise up, and defiantly throw our oppressors down the mountainside? I tell you: we cannot accept this as a simple struggle, unless we recognize it as the worst of struggles -- a war of ideology, freedom from oppression, tyranny, and bigotry that movements like the Civil Rights STRUGGLED to do away with... No, we have not yet begun to fight. Deliberation is the work of many; however, to succeed in this, action must also be the work of the sum total of those who will not go quietly and be "the great silent majority." The time to stand and fight is now.

[Liberty Belle]

19. I've wondered about this form of civil disobedience. Please read.

What if voters in states with suspect voting machines (Ohio & Florida, ie) simply REFUSED to use the machines next election? What if they all showed up at the polls carrying their own paper ballots marked with their choices of candidates--and demanded that these be counted because they didn't trust the machines?

At the very least, it would draw public attention to the problem. Every voter would see the commotion at the polling places; the vote-protesters could also have handouts to give to other voters to dissaude them from using the machines.

[Stand and Fight]

21. That's a last resort, but ultimately a meaningless one.

It's a great message, but we know the Republicans would simply not count their votes. We must not look forward to the next election to take stands -- symbolic or otherwise. The time to act and to protest and raise hell is NOW. Drawing public attention to the problem needs to happen now, and the only way is to throw this nation into severe violent epileptic fits that will so shake and disturb the right-wing media that they WILL report the news. From that a small awakening will occur in the general, and once the more of the public is so aroused then we pour on the gasoline to give birth to a blazing revolution of the people. People who shall stand up and demand that the government take notice that it is in place to serve us -- not the other way. Let us not forget that the governors only govern with the consent of the people. Those in power seem to have forgotten this, and if they need be reminded, so be it. Let them be reminded by any means necessary through any means necessary. What's the quote? "Let justice be done, though the heavens fall"? Yes. I do believe that is it.

[GuvWurld]

42. What the struggle looks like

That's a great post, Stand and Fight :-) I agree with all your points, especially framing the immediate need for action without any more paralyzing calls for patience. Between the lines here I would add that while a movement's agenda for change requires struggle, it is not so much "good" as it is a necessary evil, becoming less desirable as big picture goals are approached. Maybe that's a paradox.

Anyway, I have found that many people agree with Chimpanzee above, waiting for "the signal to join the fight in earnest." It seems almost a prerequisite that DU members have some understanding of the genuinely radical and drastic changes of the past four years. No other signal should be needed. The real question is what to do?

I don't want to sound like I have all the answers. I will say that I have been thinking about this exact topic since long before 11/2/04. I am all about strategic action and will outline what you can do by describing what I have done/am doing.

Back in April I started the GuvWurld blog by pondering the possibility of a No Confidence Resolution. It was clear to me that conditions did not exist for us to have an election where the results would be beyond question - there is no BASIS for confidence.

A week later I posted a first draft. Over the next three months I generated a ton of local media attention here in Humboldt County, CA. I spoke at meetings of several community groups and got people to help me with leaflets and petitions. Vets For Peace Chapter 56 voted to endorse the resolution. At that point community input had led to several revisions and we were up to version 4.0.

On July 7, the Arcata, CA City Council considered the resolution. They took no action, deciding instead to re-write it. They completely watered it down making it a worthless false alternative. It passed 5-0.

I backed off of this for a while after that. Just prior to 11/2 I did not know what kind of action I would want to be involved with in response to the controversy I knew was coming. By 11/7 I had concluded No Confidence was right all along and I drafted an entirely new resolution. I've got a good core group now that is helping to push for the Arcata Council and the Eureka, CA Council to take it up. (All of these links are pointing to supporting materials in the GuvWurld blog and News Archive).

All of this is stuff that you can do in your town, pretty much exactly how I've done it. In fact, for the vision of the No Confidence Movement to be realized, we will need a steadily increasing number of communities to pass similar resolutions.

Consider that over 300 anti-Patriot Act resolutions have been passed. Collectively, these have not restored our rights. The intentional difference with the No Confidence Resolution is a mechanism for cumulative impact. We are talking about the Consent of the Governed, currently being denied, ignored and otherwise deemed irrelevant. It is therefore not in any way a stretch for us to be talking about withdrawing this Consent.

When the first resolution passes, the world will not recognize that the Consent of the Governed has been withdrawn. But with each additional resolution the question will be asked anew: has the Consent of the Governed been withdrawn, YET? After 25, or 50, or 100 resolutions, at some point, the answer will switch from NO to YES, the Consent of the Governed has been withdrawn. This last straw is the hallmark of a tipping point.

OK, I'm almost done. Over the past several weeks I've posted about No Confidence in many other DU threads, plus all over the GuvWurld blog. Those of you ready to fight in earnest will not find a more detailed plan to support. If you are ready to step in now, I will also request/suggest that you spend some of whatever DU political capital you may have to get this board paying closer attention. I will continue to participate here, though the events in my community will make it increasingly difficult to continue making these overtures if there is not demonstrated interest and support on the boards. Please don't construe any attitude associated with that statement, it is only meant to forecast where I will direct my energy.

Keep your mind open...the future's coming.

[FogerRox]

64. Seeing the best in people you don't even fucking know. Now, THAT is cool.

YEs been there. done it--very extremly COOL

[FreepFryer]

10. Anger is a perfectly valid emotion here.

But you have to channel it into positive change, not retribution. That is their way.

Use the power of your ideas to convince others, and ultimately your opponents, of the error of their ways. Violence is never appropriate. Any extraordinary change in our leadership, protest, etc., must be non-violent. Otherwise, we are culpable of the very same crimes we seek to end.

In this Union, a statement for Democracy must be a peaceful one, or it does not serve the Union. There are too many black-hearted people in the opposition who would love to see a violent Left-wing movement to justify more of their abuses. That was the nature of the infiltration of the peace movement in the 60's - to inspire them towards violence, and therefore undercut their own legitimacy.

You cannot strive to protect individual liberties with acts of violence.

Read Thoreau, Ghandi and Martin Luther King, Jr. Ask yourself what your values are, act accordingly, give love to your family, friends and even your enemies. You'll feel better and calmer with yourself among the Cultural War we find ourselves in.

Our enemy is evil, no doubt about it. Warlike, self-interested, Dominionist, greedy, the embodiment of the greatest fear Jefferson, Lincoln and Eisenhower had for our nation (see below), but they cannot be overcome with violence. Truth is the means to make change.

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

-- Pres. Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864 (letter to Col. William F. Elkins)

"I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and to bid defiance to the laws of their country."

-- Thomas Jefferson, November 12, 1816 (letter to George Logan)

And, in the words of President Eisenhower, in his parting address in 1960:

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military/industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together."

[spooked911]

12. One suggestion I have is to pursue 9/11 truth

because the 9/11 attacks were clearly aided and abetted by the Bush administration and Americans need to know how badly this country has devolved. There's lots of books and websites out there that will help you learn more about 9/11. You could check out my site if you like:
http://covertoperations.blogspot.com/

[TexasChick]

16. Exactly. I think these neoCONS/PNAC a-holes perpetrated 9/11 and

Osama bin Forgotten is a paid boogyman by this administration. Problem is we just need to get this out to the sheeple. Hell, a lot of these Freeptards and Fundies still think Saddam had something to do with 9/11 so it's going to be very hard.

I feel sick to my stomach knowing that we may have murderers of innocent civilians in the WH that did this just to further their agenda in the Middle East. What's frightening is you know they are going to do it again and somehow blame this on either Iran or Syria, at least that's my fear. We just have to find a way to expose them. Perhaps Elliot Spitzer might come through for us on that petition he received to start a criminal investigation. Dunno. But, I just feel we have to think of something to get their lies exposed enough to where even the sheeple can see the lies for what they are.

[Al-CIAda]

24. Demand Letter Sent To Bush By Corp CEO

Demand Letter Sent To Bush By Corp CEO
From Karl W. B. Schwarz
President, Chief Executive Officer
Patmos Nanotechnologies, LLC

10-13-4
By Email, By Facsimile to White House
Mr. President,
I am a Conservative Christian Republican that has no intentions of voting for you in this year's election and many other Conservative Republicans are following me.
America demands the TRUTH and not after the elections; this nation demands the truth from you RIGHT NOW!

Pop goes the Bush mythology bubble
Part 1: The 9-11 Commission
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Repor...404schwarz.html

Pop goes the Bush mythology bubble
Part 2: 9/11 Commission and Bridas
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Repor...004schwarz.html

Pop goes the Bush mythology bubble
Part 3: 9-11 served a multitude of purposes
http://www.onlinejournal.com/Special_Repor...704schwarz.html

[Stand and Fight]

18. So, you want to quote Thomas Jefferson?

"The tree of liberty must occasionally be refreshed with the blood of tyrants and patriots. It is its natural manure."

-- Thomas Jefferson

He would definitely NOT stand by in face of the tyranny of the ludicrous zealots of the extreme fundamental right wing. He would make a decisive stand. The arguably greatest student of Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, would also not take a "pussy-foot" approach to the injustices that have been introduced by the heinous administration of Bush.

[FreepFryer]

23. Not when advocating violence

Is advocating outright surrender. This revolution cannot be violent, it must be cultural and ubiquitous. Violence will only bring death, legal or medical debt, and/or incarceration, which only feeds the system.

Otherwise, it will be co-opted before it begins by powers as dark and alien from the 'will of the people' as those we would seek to supplant.

The battle (the harder battle) is finding effective, creative ways to make an impact, not violence. We do not live in an America where the government can be violently overthrown anymore. It would be a terrible, terrible mistake, and a lamentable waste of idealism and potential.

[Stand and Fight]

53. What!

Who said anything about advocating the violent over throw of the government? I think you misunderstand the premise of the quote and the intent of the poster.

[FreepFryer]

57. I am relieved, very glad to hear

That that is not what was meant by 'the blood of patriots', 'stand up and fight', etc. However, I'm sure I'm not alone in interpreting your and others' posts in this thread as a call to insurrection.

If by 'fight'-ing you mean passive, non-violent civil actions, intended to express resistance to policies that are seen as un-American while respecting the body of American law, I'm with you.

When you talking about 'declaring independence' from the U.S.A., 'head bashing', 'secession' etc., through active, violent resistance, you need to take that someplace else. DU is a place for talking about ways to participate in the Democratizing of America, not to ponder a new country. It's way different than even proposing a new political party.

There are many ways, many issues, many tactics for the improvement of our national discourse and a broadening of civil rights. Violence isn't one of them.

[In Truth We Trust]

73. I have never disparaged post counts as we have all been where you

are at one time, however I find your defining what DU is for with just 12 posts rather ambitious. Whoi decided you were the thought police?

I would like for you to tell us exactly when is violent change ever justified please?

[FreepFryer]

75. It's not ambitious.

It's just the truth. That's why we're here.

Disparagement aside, I'll leave speculation to others, I've already made my opinion clear.

We should love and protect America enough to keep this place a testament to free speech, not a tool of incitement.

[In Truth We Trust]

80. You avoided answering my direct question. Would you please let us

know exactly when, in your opinion is violence justified?

[In Truth We Trust]

81. Still waiting..... *crickets*

[FreepFryer]

82. I am avoiding nothing. As I said,

I refuse to idly speculate about something so negative and destructive as committing violence. If you read my posts, you'll know my opinion as it is stated quite clearly.

You should question your own ease with the concept as readily. To quote a man who gave his life against violence,

"Let us not seek to satisfy our thirst for freedom by drinking from the cup of bitterness and hatred. We must ever conduct our struggle on the high plane of dignity and discipline. We must not allow our creative protest to degenerate into physical violence. Again and again we must rise to the majestic heights of meeting physical force with soul force."
-- Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

[In Truth We Trust]

83. Let me correct you since you are inferring something I have not stated.

Please show me anywhere where I have advocated violence. You claim I have but I respectfully require you back it up or apologize.

BTW, you still refuse to answer the question thereby leaving one to believe that perhaps you would tolerate any and all totalitarian abuse. Am I correct or is there a point when a person has no other alternative?

[FreepFryer]

84. It's not my job

to solve your moral dilemmas.

For the third time, my views are clearly expressed on this topic already, and I am not evading you. You have to decide if 'that point' exists for you.

Equating my views with tolerating totalitarianism is a complete misunderstanding of what I have said.

I have accused you of nothing, of saying nothing. I can only hope that you stop seeking a fight, in all respects. And before you twist and jump again, I do not mean to not resist. Consult some other wise individuals who've walked this ground before:

"The first principle of non-violence is the non-compliance with everything that is humiliating. Mankind has to get out of violence only through non-violence. Hatred can be overcome only by love. Counter-hatred only increases the surface as well as the depth of hatred. Human dignity is best preserved not by developing the capacity to deal destruction but by refusing to retaliate."
-- MK Ghandi

''Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, LOVE YOUR ENEMIES, BLESS THEM THAT CURSE YOU, DO GOOD TO THEM THAT HATE YOU, AND PRAY FOR THEM WHICH DESPITEFULLY USE YOU, AND PERSECUTE YOU <...> For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans do the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?''
-- (Matthew 5:38-47)

[In Truth We Trust]

85. You DID accuse me of "being at ease" with violence. You choose to disre-

gard that FACT and then you accuse me of suffering from a moral dilemma of which you offer no evidence. You should enter discourse with integrity of argument or not enter at all imho. I assume you will not correct yourself and offer an apology for your misplaced accusation and thereby show yourself to be of little integrity.

I simply asked you quite politely based on your earlier posts at what point is violence required.

[FreepFryer]

86. If you read what I said,

You'll see I accused you of nothing.

I suggested you look at your own ease with discussing taking up arms, to whatever extent you feel such ease, not that you felt more or less ease than anyone else... I'm sorry if you felt attacked.

And I hope in exchange you stop impuning my integrity for my contributions, and consider the words I speak. If you find anything of value there, I guess I had some integrity after all.

[In Truth We Trust]

87. In what way did I discuss taking arms?!? Are you always prone to

putting words in other peoples mouth's.

Again for you clarification: I simply asked at what point in your humble opinion is violence justified? Do you care to respond to just that question directly?????

[FreepFryer]

88. If you read my posts,

You'll understand my beliefs exactly, you'll have your answer, and perhaps you'll understand the irrelevance of the question.

I have not quoted you, and put nothing in your mouth. I was not attributing anything to you. I have not accused you. I wish you only the best!

Yet your aggressiveness continues... you'll notice I have not returned the insult of your undue interrogation. That is the appropriate, non-violent response.

[In Truth We Trust]

89. What I have noticed frankly is a lack of integrity. It is aparent to any-

one who reads this mini thread. So with no recognition, but just denial of my points I will stop this discourse and wish you well Freep.

[FreepFryer]

90. That's unfair, and untrue

And I hope you're just in a bad mood.

I have made my answer clear - it was best said elsewhere on this thread... "If you have to ask, it isn't time"... in my 15 or so posts I have quoted Ghandi, Jesus, Thoreau, Eisenhower, Lincoln and Jefferson to make my points clear and contextualized.

I HOPE I continue to maintain my integrity as well as any real person can hope.

Was this worth the personal nature of your attacks in this thread? I want to think better of you, but your behavior is humiliating (see the Ghandi quote for the meaning in this usage) - so I will say goodbye to you as well.

[In Truth We Trust]

91. I sincerely wish you well. I would like to ask you to re-read our posts

and then ask yourself which one of us is guilty of disingenuousness and mischaracterization. I am not out to pick a fight nor am I in a bad mood. I was just asking a simple question and pointing out to you that you were out of place in deciding what others should think and say in a democratic forum.
America is a free speech zone.

[FreepFryer]

92. We can debate what 'free speech' means

another time. But you'll also see my posts are not inconsistent with 'free speech'.

There is some speech which is not protected under the First Amendment, and last I looked, incitement to riot and insurrection was not protected. Again, that point has been made in this thread, by others, in independent response to the thread. I have not judged them to be disingenuous.

Honestly, I don't think we disagree, really, I just don't know why you have made so many attacks against me in the course of this discussion. You have accused me of a lack of integrity, disingenuousness and mischaracterization. If a reader of this thread comes to that conclusion on their own, I'll accept that judgement, but I think it's clear that's not the case. In my view I've not done that, at all.

[In Truth We Trust]

93. Let us just agree to disagree on the merits and bid adieu with good will

and best wishes.
Have a great New Year!
PS- your name seems to have a violent conotation to it; just an ironic observation.

[FreepFryer]

94. And yours seems to say

that truth is more trustworthy than violence.

Good to see we both can embrace the irony of the human condition.

[alittlelark]

98. You sound soooo familiar.....

Do you have a bunch of brothers or sisters that post here every month or so? The post counts are always low.

Your family seems to sound sooo similar...did you all attend the same schools? You must come from a big family.

I'll give you extra points for spelling!!!!

Ta Ta for now FriarFreep

[FreepFryer]

99. No, just me.

And while i've lurked a while, I've only begun posting the past few days... would I know the family you're speaking of?

[alittlelark]

100. uh, yeah.....

[FreepFryer]

101. Sorry, I guess I didn't get the reference.

I can assure you I speak on my own behalf alone.

[TexNExile]

13. When is it time for a revolution?

Revolution is necessary anytime a government or governing power has become corrupt. It is the duty of each citizen to rise up against injustice.

Tex N Exile

[ShinerTX]

14. That's what our founders thought, isn't it?

I wonder if we have the courage to follow in their spirit.

[Stand and Fight]

20. See my post #18 above.

It sums it up.

[MarkusQ]

22. When instead of asking that question, you say...

"Damn, we should'a had a revolution last year!"

A good rule of thumb: if you're asking "are we there yet?" we aren't "there" yet.

--MarkusQ

[Dancing_Dave]

25. Good post.

I don't have answers to all the questions.

One suggestion is Martin Luther King may be just the sort of Revolutionary we need now...someone capable of creating a deep and sustained movement that resonates around the world...

then WE SHALL OVERCOME.

[organik]

27. NOW

i believe it IS time for a non-violent revolution.
american conusmer culture cannot survive in this age, and should not.

we really really need to move beyond this obvously fixed political system.

we have no democracy.

I think the best way is to vote with your dollars....only spend money that you absolutely must spend - and spend it wisely.

and go vegan....ok...my own personal belief...but it's the way to go, the most environmentally sound lifestyle.

I tried to vote the lesser of two evils..for Kerry, abandoning the greens, and it didn't work.

Won't make that mistake again.

http://2004electiontheft.com

http://veganlinks.org

[Corey_Baker08]

28. I Think Its time We Take It In Our Own hands

Like in another post I was reading on here, Rosa parks didnt have a senator or congressman tell her to not give up her seat on the Bus. She believed so deeply in what she was fighting for that she was willing to risk her own freedom so others wouldnt be effected by this law.

Thats exactly what we need to do, start a revolution of change and bring excitement and hope back to the Democratic Party,prepare for the future, because the future is now!

Happy New Years

[Turn CO Blue]

30. Hey that was my post! Thanks!

[Corey_Baker08]

32. That was very creative I had never thought about that b4!!!

[Carolab]

29. Uh, hello?

The revolution has already started.

[Woo]

33. Ya know...

I've been feeling the same way --

Then the tsunami came and the election fraud story seemed so small in comparison-- basically because I have a very good friend in Sri Lanka presently and have been calling all over the globe trying to find someone who knows something -- I think all might agree that as large and as impactful as election fraud is on American's and the world it does not even begin to loom as large

Tonight I finally got through found out she's safe as well as her 'immediate' family .I have renewed hope and spirit even though I'm saddened that so many people did not fair as well. I'm ready to return to the grindstone -- I invited my friend to come over and visit me and attend a conference with me in September of 2005--

Her response-- 'Will George Bush still be President?'

I had to laugh -- and I'm still laughing... a world away and in harms way -- we've got to get rid of George Bush -- I'm ready for the fight... buck up, the world has our back(but we already knew that)

[glitch]

48. Thank you for the first laugh of the day. Always good to have humor in the

face of tragedy.

[mycatforpresident]

34. That's a lot of words

to commit to memory. I'm jealous.

[Turn CO Blue]

35. Repost of mine from another thread: Rosa Parks

WE the people ARE the government.

Even though I "work" for a company, I have always behaved as though I were a consultant or an independent contractor. I am my own boss.

We have to behave the same way with OUR government.

Okay, wouldn't it be just *rosy* if there were some definitive leadership on the election fraud issue by the candidate or other statesmen? Well, guess what? No Senator arranged for Rosa Parks to refuse to give up her seat for a white man on the bus that day. She made that bold move totally on her own. She decided -- for herself and for everyone -- that she wouldn't move and that she wouldn't stand for the law that said she had to move.

We all must do the same. We must decide to be the government and to be the media -- individually and together -- and refuse to give up our government and elections to a corrupt cabal of neo-cons and corporations.

Why should a Senator or the media be expected to fight for what is yours and mine? That type of thinking is way too passive for me. And the litany of the "we are all fucked, give up, they're way too powerful" talk is just too apocalytic for me. What if, instead of agreeing that they are too powerful, we all agreed that we need to organize, that we ourselves could be too cowardly or lazy?

Yes, I expect better representation from the Dems, but am I going to whine and wait around for them to rescue little ol' me? I am my own boss, remember? The Senators and pundits are not going to become our Knights in Shining Armor, and we need to stop waiting for someone to rescue democracy for us -- because Democracy belongs to each and all of us and we must be the rescuers.

Don't we yet realize that "the leaders follow the followers' lead"?

WE are the grassroots militia. We can get up and march on Selma. If anything, I will get off my computer, and work to get transparent voting in Colorado or at least my own damned county if that is all I can manage, because I am not going to be passive nor defeatist about this issue. Nobody needs to come with me or hold my damned hand either. It's a decision.

In the Ukraine, the people went into the streets...first a few, then a few thousand, then thousands upon thousands. Currently, in the USA "we the people" are all going on the Internet(s) and email.

The time will come when each of us, individually, is going to have to make a Rosa Parks decision. What will follow will be the voters' equivalent of the million man march...

After January the 6th, comes the 7th, then the 8th -- and everyday for the rest of my life while I still hold breath -- to work against, march against (and perhaps even revolt against) this regime, this fascism, this fraud.

[Machiavelli05]

36. last time I checked

suggesting a revolution is taken as rather a serious matter by our government. Suggesting one publicly is just asking for problems. Be careful what you say on the internet. Not everyone understands that perhaps youre being melodramatic for effect.

[Turn CO Blue]

37. Yes. I do agree. A calm voice of reason...however,

IF
the agenda of BushCo and his puppet-master neo-cons continues on...
past the line in the sand (and we will all know when we get there), after the working, the attempts to reform, the attempts to organize, march, protest, persuade, plead, cajole, vote, re-count, re-vote, year after year, etc...

IF
all of that still fails, and we have another Patriot Act, more wars, more theocracy, more fascism, fewer civil liberties, more hypocrisy, through the years of taxation without much or any representation...

THEN
we follow our founding fathers example!

[Machiavelli05]

38. if all that happens...

we wont have a country left to fight for.

[Turn CO Blue]

39. Oh, they'll still be lots of people in Texas! (hee hee)

Actually, there would be 6 billion or so other people in the 100's of other countries in the world (note: someone please remind * that we are not the only country on the planet!) who would be relieved to have a world-conscious community/democracy in charge of this country (and the environment and our nukes! yikes).

Oh yeah! Rejoice - he can't be president for a 3rd term. Just about any other Repub (real Repubs, not neo-cons) would be better than *.

[KnowerOfLogic]

41. What are you saying, Mach? The Dec. of Ind. is no longer operative?

I think it is, and i'm not so sure the poster was being melodramatic. When the election process can no longer be trusted, peaceful revolution becomes difficult, if not impossible, no? Perhaps this King George should take a lesson from the other King George.

[Machiavelli05]

43. Im saying its extremely imprudent to conspire. In fact its a crime.

[TexasLawyer]

47. Revolution ala ML King and Gandhi

No one has suggested anything unlawful. Just a struggle to educate and change attitudes, where corporate media has failed. Just an effort to improve the political and cultural environment, where our politicians and our TV and radio talking heads have failed. Just a struggle to un-rig and democratize what is now a deliberately rigged and unfair system of voting.

The revolution is in knowing that we have to do all this ourselves, and in going out there and patiently and passionately doing it.


--An awakened people who rely upon their nonviolent strength are independent in the face of any conceivable combination of the armed powers. --Gandhi

http://www.mkgandhi.org/epigrams/p.htm#PASSIVE_RESISTANCE

[Turn CO Blue]

97. Excellent point.

I was thinking about posting some similar thought about the type of revolution we are talking about. This type of revolution isn't violent at all, but rather about finding within ourselves the knowledge and strength to withstand and wear down the oppressors -- but you've already said it very well.

[KnowerOfLogic]

40. Basically, you're right. Secession is the only answer, but support will

have to be gathered first, and as long as the MSM is completely owned by repukes and dem sell-outs, it will be impossible to generate the necessary level of support. We must get control of the media; that alone will go a long way to creating a more perfect union.

[TexasLawyer]

49. Secession?

What??? Either you're using the word in a poetical way that I am not understanding (like breaking away from the Democratic Party) or you're suggesting something unnecessary, unlawful and way, way over the top. If it is the latter you'll need to peddle your ideas elsewhere.

[Stand and Fight]

54. That's your opinion.

I don't agree with secession in the least bit, but that is my opinion. I, for one, am not going to tell him to peddle his ideas elsewhere -- it's not my place and it is not your's to tell him that.
:eyes:

[TexasLawyer]

67. Just Trying To Keep DU Alive

Talk of secession and/or violence is just the kind of thing that would get this web-site branded as a terrorist organization and permanently removed from the internet. A great Freeper tactic, which I have been worried about, would be for several RW-ers (posing as DU people) to start posting nonsense promoting armed revolution, assasination, etc..., with other posers agreeing that those were good ideas.

DU would disappear so fast your head would spin.

I just think it should be perfectly clear that the website does not allow talk of violence.

[GuvWurld]

44. Kick (eom)

[garybeck]

45. January 21st.

make it a PEACEFUL revolution

the pen is mightier than the sword

[s-cubed]

50. COME TO DC ON JAN 6 - WE'LL PERK YOU UP

and if * still gets inaugurated, we'll keep working to get all the evidence for fraud out and bring him down. You know those poll books in Ohio are hiding stuff that will prove fraud.

"It ain't over til it's over", and "we have not yet begun to fight."

:mad:

[KerryOn]

51. Maybe the blue states could..

... merge with Canada instead. Only problem is I would have to move from Ohio to Michigan.

[genieroze]

52. Would Canada want us? lol eom

[katinmn]

55. you're not alone. (from a post I made yesterday whose flow was

destroyed by some asshole. However, the sentiments fit here.

We’re not alone in our fight against vote fraud. But just how many of us are there? Are there 100s of thousands, millions, 10s of millions? This is a preliminary list of organizations and groups that either exist to contest the vote or are re-focusing on the stolen election. I know it is nowhere complete.

Election Protection
Progressive Democrats of America
No Stolen Elections
CASE
Voters Unite
Cobb Recount/Green Party
ReDefeat Bush
Verified Voting
51 Capital March
Open Voting Consortium
We Do Not Concede
National Voting Rights Institute
The Dean People
The Alliance for Democracy
Help America Recount
FairVote, the Center for Voting and Democracy
Demos
Audit the Vote

We have leaders like Rep. John Conyers/the House Judiciary Committee, and Jesse Jackson.

We also have the alternative media, thousands of progressive forums and blogs, and organized experts in the law, in technology, the economy, and other areas. We have veterans groups, 9/11 groups, impeach Bush groups, environmental and energy groups, civil rights, education and health care groups that all dream of seeing this election reversed. A lot of people are fighting with us; some want to win but can’t believe that it can be done. But this many voices, however many that is, speaking together with conviction cannot be ignored for long.

Many national organizations -- NAACP, League of Women Voters, ACLU, MoveOn.org -- while speaking for the need for election reform, and speaking out against vote fraud, have not yet issued action alerts to their members in support of the Jan. 6 contest the vote mobilization effort.

There’s still time for them to take a stand and use their reach and influence to help rid us of the corruption that threatens our democracy.

We need to hang tough, demonstrate our opposition, and network, network, network!

Note: My name is katinmn and I believe we can do it!
:)

[FogerRox]

56. You have such a massively legit question I dont have any answer

But when I do--I'll let the world know--LOL --no seriously you bring up a very cogent point.

Untill then protest--have you made a sign (Kerry WOn) and gone out to a street corner-- Or HOnk for Kerry---it might break the spell for ya.
My Mission: TARGET CBS

Join the protest @ CBS in NYC or protest in DC--If enough Peeps show @ CBS I will extend the efforts to other outlets, Like ABC & NBC.

Power to the People ! !! ! ! RIght On Brother KIP ! !! !

http://www.51capitalmarch.com /
[e-mail] /

[mulethree]

60. Are you getting outside? Exercising?

You sound really - really depressed. While I agree with all your reasons; slim hopes, disappointing leadership, grim reality.

Sunshine and physical activity can go a long way to helping the depression. You might want to watch your nutrition as well.

Dissolving political bonds was a very different matter when the declaration was written. They were disbanding from a government that was across the ocean. They were maintaining local government to a large degree. Now we're all intermingled.

You can find revolution if you look for it. You'll even find they are the problem. The ashecrofts are revolting against secularism and church-state-separation; the rich republicans are revolting against the tyranny of the majority and this whole 'for the people' idea. PNAC is pretty revolutionary.

Maybe thinking counter-revolutionary would help?

[Peace Patriot]

71. This is a great point you made, mulethree!

THEY are the radicals!

[RaulVB]

62. Now!

The sooner you understand that simple fact the better you'll be!

[keepthemhonest]

65. go to the PDA

site and send some letters to your senators at least then you will feel empowered. When Jan 6 comes around no matter what the outcome, at least I will feel like I've have done everything in my humble power to fight this evil thing.No regrets this time around.

[GuvWurld]

69. But wait, there's more...

you can do. Please do not overlook post #42 in this thread.

[Peace Patriot]

70. Plan of Action

First of all, take care of yourself.

"I'm miserable and depressed tonight. I haven't slept in almost two months. I can barely eat; I've lost ten pounds..."

NOT good! Seek physical well-being, peacefulness, and a steady, determined outlook.

Think about Nelson Mandela--in prison 30 years, finally gets out to see the end of Apartheid and himself elected president. Other struggles have taken long and required much perseverance (labor rights, civil rights for women and blacks). KNOW that you are in an historic struggle. That's what this is. History has chosen us to save American democracy, and pass it along to the future, as the Founders and others passed it along to us. It is as plain as it can be that our democracy is near death. Our right to vote has been taken away!

Here is an action plan I've been thinking about:

1. Challenge the election. Whatever you can do--to support Congressional challengers, to inform the public, to protest in the street. This fraudulent election is Exhibit #1 in our struggle to regain our right to vote.

2. Inform Kerry voters (the majority--who were disenfranchised) what happened in the election. Critically important. Forget rightwing people for now--they are mostly delusional and are not the majority anyway. The main thing Kerry voters need to know is that TV networks altered the Exit Polls on everybody's TV screens that night--mixed in BushCon electronic "results." Kerry won in the Exit Polls. Bush "won" in the "official results." Big discrepancy--but it was hidden from us. (--not from the Ukrainians, they got to see the discrepancy, and revolted). Start with that. Then explain about who owns the secret source code that runs all the electronic vote tabulation. Kerry voters need to know, and most will be relieved to know, that we won.

3. Get this through your head yourself. We won! The American people saw through all the B.S.--despite disgusting media--and voted to repudiate the BushCons.

4. After the Election Fraud fight--whatever its outcome (and parallel with it, if it becomes a long term expose), we must act locally to achieve:

a) A paper receipt for every vote
b) Open source code

or

a) Paper ballot
b) Hand count

And we must do this locally, state by state, A.S.A.P., while we still have the power to do so. We have lost the right to vote. Nothing else matters right now except getting it back.

5. If we can achieve an honest election system, I have no doubt we can elect a progressive Congress in '06. (The BushCons cannot win honest elections.) If we cannot get an honest election system right away, then continue to work on it, and implement selective voting boycotts (perhaps wherever Dems are not working vigorously to get honest elections). Protest action: Diebold machines into Boston Harbor (or any nearby river).

6. Further action (once the above is accomplished or well on its way)

a) Media Corporations. Divestiture campaign and boycott of advertisers for targeted media war profiteers and liars, one by one. We have the financial and organizing power to do this. (Done very successfully in the U.S. to end Apartheid in So. Africa; and recently re: Sinclair Broadcasting.) Once we take the first one down (my nominee, Fox News), it'll be up to the rest of them if they want to be next.

b) Other corporations. Devise other creative, fresh, new protest strategies--such as boycotts and dis-investments. Create a prioritized list of the worst suckers on the federal government, and if you can't boycott their nuclear missiles, find out if they have subsidiaries that make something we can boycott. And their stocks are always fair game. Remember, both Gandhi and Martin Luther King did ECONOMIC boycotts as a non-violent strategy. They targeted things that poor people use, or entities that employed them: salt; busses; garbage collection. The anti-apartheid movement targeted stocks (it began with students and their universities' investment portfolios).

c) Draft denial. Begin a movement now, at state and county levels, to deny drafted soldiers to the BushCons--officially, as state and/or local community policy. I have a feeling this might get huge support. (Ex. Some local police & sheriffs have a policy of non-cooperation with the INS re: immigrants, or with CAMP, Fed. anti-marijuana raids. Some states have also revolted against the Feds on medical marijuana. And there are 300 local resolutions against the Patriot Act--don't know if they include directives of non-cooperations to local law enforcement.)

d) Work to get your community off the corporate "grid"--solar power, alternative fuels, vegetable gardens, farms, truly free trade. (Purpose: to destroy corporations; and promote health, safety and survival.)

e) Reform or abandon the Democratic Party. They let BushCons get control of our election system with hardly a whimper--and no warning to us. Enough is enough! If they don't make recompense now by a strong challenge of the fraudulent election, while I might feel personal compassion for some (opposing BushCons is a dangerous business), I think almost all of them, current leaders, must be dumped. Grown too fat, too comfy in their little fiefdoms. No longer interested in democracy. If they won't let us reform this miserable remnant of the party of FDR and JFK--this once great party of the Civil Rights Act and the Voting Rights Act--then we need to form a new party, or join the Greens and help them expand. We might start getting the message to the Dems now by a massive re-registration as Greens after Jan.6, if they don't come through.

f) Streets protests. The powers that be have gotten controlling and marginalizing street protests down to a science. I will never be against street protests--I've done many myself--and they are fine for informing people and for simply venting the need to protest (not unimportant), but we have to realize that BushCons just don't give a crap (we can't influence them, no matter how big the protest--and we have certainly succeeded as to numbers, but it means absolutely nothing to them, BECAUSE they can manufacture votes at will). Personally, I think the only protests we should do are ones that can be HUGE--I mean, really huge--a couple of million at least, and maybe also include ALL engaging in civil disobedience of some kind--and of course completely non-violent. I think it'll take at least a year to organize such a thing. I'm not sure what it should be. Maybe "Nov.2, 2005: A Remembrance."

Note: I totally support this January's Election Fraud protests. If ever there was a moment to be in the streets, it is this! I'm talking about AFTER--as we assess what to do NEXT.

[ShinerTX]

78. Thanks for the response.

There have been some great comments on this thread.

[nashville_brook]

95. great post! n/t

[lthuedk]

74. No, this will not pass.

If Kerry doesn't stand to speak for us on January 6, he will have made his choice to resign from the party.

He would no longer be welcome.

[Quakerfriend]

76. ShinerTX we all know how you are feeling

Maybe not in exactly the same ways, but we too feel this in our hearts and our guts. I keep asking myself how can I get out in the streets and help this cause, as a mom with two young boys who depend on me to be there for them.........Then I see the image of that young Canadian boy pinned against the concrete by the police during *s visit to Canada several weeks ago....with blood oozing from his mouth. And, my heart leaps! He was there for ALL of us in a sense.

Remember that we must try to be as peaceful as possible. Read Ghandi, MLK, James Redfield. And, most of all do not be afraid. We will know when the time comes exactly what to do. Many more of us are trying to do good in this country, and we are all together.

[Unforgiven]

96. Perfectly Normal

to be feeling this. I made a similar but somewhat more radical post awhile back on the general discussion board as I was furious over another stolen election.
It got jerked almost immediately because of content.
And I got labeled as a freeper to boot, that was the classic kick in the balls.
So yes I relate with what you are saying, and probably more. just be careful how you communicate it. :)