Can someone send this link to Conyers NOW?????

[ClintCooper2003]

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/pdfs/Mitofsky4zonedata/

[garybeck]

1. friggin awesome!!!

where did SCOOP get this?

are they all from 4pm on election day? and are they the pure unadulterated exit polls?

I wish we had the rest of the day included, but this is AWESOME. thanks for posting

[nascarblue]

2. Yeah, where did those come from ? I doubt they're legit

[ClintCooper2003]

3. They're totally legit. In fact, they're the exact same exit polls posted

on CNN.com that night after the polls closed. I remember the data.

[garybeck]

9. but they're still not complete

at what point did they start mixing in the "real" vote with the exit poll data?

is the 4pm data just exit polls?

what about the 8pm?

how about the nov 3rd corrected?

where do they start mixing in the real vote?

[ClintCooper2003]

47. Listen! They wouldn't have had time to mix in the real vote yet, because

these 8 o'clock figures were actually weighted at 7:33 p.m. That means they wouldn't have had time to gather any of the results - some states had polls that didn't close until 8 p.m. or later. Also, it takes time to gather and weight the data, so the 8 o'clock data set is probably from 5 to 7 p.m. or so.

And the results didn't actually start coming in until later anyway. The "contaminated" exit polls were posted sometime after 1 a.m.

[blurp]

108. So, how do we "weigh" these? Anyone have the turnout numbers, too?

It seems these data are useless unless we know how to weigh the numbers.

How do we know, for example, what the turnout was in each of the precincts polled?

It seems you need the turnout numbers to get the right weighing.

[blurp]

107. And what does "Time of weighing" mean?

They were weighted? How?

[darkism]

4. Downloaded them all

In case the link should be pulled.

Go one directory up and have a look at some of that, too.

[understandinglife]

5. I've got'um all as well -- a literal "i've got your back(up)" ;-) And,..

....I've already sent an email to Congressman Conyers, Mr Arnebeck and Mr Bonifaz and others pointing them to the link and telling them that if they want all the .pdf files emailed to them, all they have to do is ask.

Peace.

[ClintCooper2003]

6. Thanks, understanding life. n/t

[ChicanoPwr]

63. So do I

I have noticed things start to disappear when good information is mentioned.

[pk_du]

7. Also from that ste....

Great paper on the "Popular Vote" and Electronic Voting/tabulating

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/pdfs/PopularVotePaper181_1.pdf

[SlowDownFast]

8. new zealand site.....

i always loved new zealand.

[magellan]

10. Holy shit! Is this as big as I think it is?

Someone leaked these to Scoop?? Bless them! Bless New Zealand! :bounce:

Presidential election exit poll data is included for the following dates and times:

Time of Weighting: 11/2/2004 3:59:05 PM
Time Created: 11/2/2004 3:59:05 PM

Time of Weighting: 11/2/2004 7:33:46 PM
Time Created: 11/2/2004 7:33:46 PM

Time of Weighting: 11/3/2004 1:24:53 PM
Time Created: 11/3/2004 1:24:53 PM

I'm surprised by the timestamp on the last one. 1:24 in the afternoon the day after the election? Is there anything odd about that?

[Bill Bored]

11. If it's ET, it's right around the time of Kerry's consession speech. n/t

[magellan]

12. Ah, I'd blocked that from my memory. Thanks. (nim)

[noclonyofthechimp]

18. that's what I was thinking! Do you think because the media refused

to release the info this is what we have been looking for? This is huge if this is what they would have released!:bounce:

[mordarlar]

31. I LOOOVE scoop.. Fab site.

[spooked]

40. HELL YES it's big!! Hold your nose & Send it to Drudge!!

n/t

[Occulus]

13. bookmarked for kicking 'round tenish, when I wake n/t

[shiina]

14. that would be awesome, but...

I went to the sites main page to search for a story or something that would tell us about those poll numbers, and I found this :

"Complete US Exit Poll Data Confirms Net Suspicions
Full 51 State Early Exit Poll Data Released For The First Time

By Scoop Co-Editor Alastair Thompson

Scoop.co.nz is delighted to be able today to publish a full set of 4pm exit poll data for the first time on the Internet since the US election. The data emerged this evening NZT in a post on the Democratic Underground website under the forum name TruthIsAll."

So they're getting their stuff from us. (Go DU! Go TIA!)
The times on the pdf files are in the afternoon, so I don't think they're the full exit polls.
And they have an article from the 27th critisizing media here for not releasing the exit polls.

<EDIT>
Wait! They're talking about it here, too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=214701&mesg_id=214701

"At the above link you will find the original Mitofsky/Edison reports for the :

- House & Presidential races
- in vertical and horizontal format (not sure what the difference is)
- For each of the East, West, Mid - West & Southern zones.

Each report comes in three versions. The 4pm run the 8pm run and the final 1.30pm Nov 3. corrected run."

So. I believe what Conyers wants is the state-by-state. Also, these might not be raw.

[shraby]

15. Kick

:kick: :kick:

[DoYouEverWonder]

16. The fellow that runs the site

is an evil DUer named althecat.

[EFerrari]

17. There sure is a lot of catting around, around here

I remember reading that article through my trauma and thinking, okay, either that person is crazy, too or maybe I'm onto something :)

[catgirl]

30. What do you mean by "evil"?

Is althecat a freeper? Is this a freeper link evryone is getting so excited about? Please clarify.

[intheflow]

32. althecat is definitely not evil.

He's on our side. Welcome to DU! :hi:

[DoYouEverWonder]

50. It's a name

we affectionately call ourselves. althecat is one of the best around.

[quaoar]

19. When I click on the link

all I get is a directory of files.

< edit: never mind. Got it. >

[SharonRB]

21. You have to click on a file to see it

I was a little confused at first, too. Just click on the files -- they are pdfs of exit poll data!

[SharonRB]

20. Holy Crap, Batman!

Are these for real? I wonder who leaked them? I wish I was at work. My home computer is too slow to look at all of these, but I looked at one and this looks like we could have our smoking guns in here somewhere. I hope someone in Conyer's office looks at these carefully.

Look out, here we come!

[kc.ink]

22. downloaded all as well. n/t

[sickinohio]

23. how do i download these files? i'm not computer savvy

[apple_ridge]

28. right click and then choose "save as"

[Occulus]

49. right-click, and save as

You'll also need the Adobe Acrobat Reader:

www.acrobat.com/reader and click the "Get Acrobat Reader" icon to download and install it if you don't already have it. Once it's installed, double-click one of the files from the directory list we're talking about and it should open.

[Amaryllis]

24. Here's their phone #. You should call and alert. They get thousands of

emails each day. 202-225-6906
Let them know you are sending and to look for it. Make sure they know the importance of it.

[mattclearing]

25. Is there methodology in there somewhere?

It would be nice to know where the sample was taken, how many respondents there were, etc. I've read through a few, but haven't found it yet. Is it in there?

[SharonRB]

26. The number of respondents is noted at the top

and for each question (n= XXXX), but it looks like each is from a region, and it doesn't specify what state, etc.

[SharonRB]

27. Kick!

[Clark2008]

29. I saved 'em to a disk

They're just pdf's - they don't take up all that much room.

If we figure out that this *is* what we need - I've got a copy.

[lakeguy]

33. downloaded also nt

[Arioch]

35. wget -r ...

Got them all.


Should this be sent to anyone?
I always assume that those who need to know already do, but so far my record for assumptions in presumably logical and rational situations has been a tad off...

[els417]

113. I do not understand

why Clint Curtis' testimony before the Conyers committee has been so ignored. Well, yes I do know why-as we all do. For anyone who hasn't watched it, the link is below followed by a link for discussion of it. What can be more blatant than this????

http://movies.ziaspace.com/12-13Curtis.wmv

http://onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120604Madsen/120604madsen.html

This is my first time posting on DU. It's so good to see some optimism...personally I feel like Dry Drunk Bush Ignoramus Extroidinaire is at the wheel of a bus which is speeding all of us (strapped in passengers) 100 mph toward the cliff's edge.

Arioch puts it perfectly..."my record for assumptions in presumably logical and rational situations has been a tad off...". After months and tons of blatant truth having no effect so far, I can't see anything happening to prevent the Bush juggernaut from keeping in office and abusing more power until they self-destruct taking the US with them. God I hope I'm wrong.

Only thing (I THINK) I'm sure of is that Karl Rove did not personally orchestrate the tsunami disaster. If he could have he would have. The neo-con mafia loves the distraction. Perfect timing.

[slor]

34. Saved here too...

I hope this really is the other shoe dropping...hard, right the fuck down on the chimp's prospects of 4 more years.

[Bill219]

37. saved..

downloaded entire website with HT TRACK Website Copier

[BreakForNews]

77. Indispensible.....

http://www.httrack.com/

Grab All of Part of Websites ......Automatically FREE !!

Just give the link like the scoop one above
and HTTrack wil grab that page and any pages
lower in the site tree.

I grabbed 'em too (72 files About 2.3mb)

[janetle]

36. Whoa!

It used to be the media that saved us from ourselves but now it is the blog world.

[Botany]

38. E mail all the democratic Senators.

The exit polls had it right Kerry Won.

:kick:

[zann725]

45. Someone should email Keith O...too.

n/t

[pbartch]

67. I emailed him although I'm dumb. I don't have any idea what this info is

But I know excitment when I see it. I also sent this thread and the scoop website to a bunch of DEMO friends.

[spooked]

39. THIS TOTALLY RESTORES MY FAITH IN AMERICA!

A Blast of Sanity!!!

IT WAS A LANDSLIDE!!

No wonder they didn't want these numbers to get out!!

No wonder Kerry KNEW HE HAD WON THE ELECTION when we saw him on TV around 4:30!!

[zann725]

46. Of course it was a Landslide!

Almost every on-line poll I took for the 3 months prior to the Election (including MSNBC early on Election Day itself) showed Kerry with (approx) 70/30 lead. Every time I'd read a Gallop poll (or any of the MSM polls), it just didn't "jive" with what I was seeing on a 'popular' level at on-line polls.
Knowing now how MSM is in Shrub's "pocket," I think they kept showing the race as 'neck-and-neck' for the last months prior to Election to 'set the stage' for a 'believable' Bush win. Another indication I had that the "fix was in" was a week before the Election when they named the flag-waving Network location for Election Night broadcasts as "Democracy Plaza." Since the Admin. typically labels a lie EXACTLY OPPOSITE of what it is (such as "Clean Air Initiative")... when I heard the name "Democracy Plaza" as the site for Election Return Coverage, I remember thinking, "Oh lordie, here we go!" And well, of course we DID...as you recall.

[spooked]

52. Ahh yes, kind of like "Operation Iraqi Freedom"

Isn't that scary...Democracy Plaza!?

Sponsored by Bank of America, no less!

[McCamy Taylor]

41. Is someone gonna crunch these numbers, pretty please?

[babsbunny]

43. CNN

Should someone ask CNN why they are keeping secrets?

[Time for change]

54. It looks like it's already been done

Some of the files are pretty difficult to understand, as (it appears to me) some of them represent the numbers after they've already been "adjusted", and others seem to be a combination of adjusted and unadjusted numbers. After looking over the files, here's what I see as the salient points:

In the parent directory, there is an article by Jonathon Simons, the guy who originally gave us much of the unadjusted data:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/pdfs/PopularVotePaper181_1.pdf
This is an excellent article that points out that Kerry won the popular vote, according to the exit polls, by 2.6%, and the probability of that large of a discrepancy between this and the official vote tally (Bush by 2.8%) happening by chance is almost a million to one.

The key exit poll in the list is
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/pdfs/Mitofsky4zonedata/US2004G_3798_PRES04_NONE_H_Data.pdf
This confirms the basic data in Simons' paper. It has Kerry with a national 3 point lead at 7:33 p.m. on November 2, with a sample size of 11,027. It may not be the final poll, but if not it is very close.
It also has lots of intersting breakdowns by demographic categories.

[KaliTracy]

42. I say, send it to MITOFSKY and ask him again for the raw data...n/t

[Last Lemming]

44. WIf this was published initially on DU

how did everyone miss it--why didn't althecat repost them himself (or herself)?

[proudtobeadem]

48. If

these were first posted here, what proof do we have that they are the real numbers? I mean I believe they are, but is there proof enough for them to be used in court? I worry that it gets debunked as being faked.

[proudtobeadem]

51. How do we proove these are the true numbers??

what proof do we have that they are the real numbers? I mean I believe they are, but is there proof enough for them to be used in court? I worry that it gets debunked as being faked.

[KaliTracy]

53. If you send them to Misfosky asking for his Raw data to prove them

right or wrong -- either he'll say they are faked (then he would have to prove that) -- or the numbers would be the same, or at least close.... the only problem is if he's already changed his numbers.... we need a News Source that has raw numbers too, I fear. I don't completely trust these numbers yet -- want to, but am not holding my breath.

[Quakerfriend]

55. Assuming these are the real thing

Why don't they indicate which state/location polling was done in?

[Carolab]

58. They are national summaries

North, East, West, South

[janetle]

56. Explain..

..to me why these are significant or different than the information we have always known about--that the exit polls were not the same as the supposed "actual" vote?

Have these not been seen before but only talked about?

[Carolab]

59. These are the early exit polls

the 13K or so

[flpoljunkie]

64. Not the last ones; they were weighted and posted at 1:24:53AM, Nov 3rd.

The vote has now turned around with Bush at 51% and Kerry at 48% with total of 13,660 Respondents:

M 46% Respondents voted 55% for Bush and 44% for Kerry

F 54% Respondent voted 48% for Bush and 51% for Kerry

This compares to the weighted polling of 11,027 Respondents, posted at 7:33:46PM, 11/02

Kerry leads 51% to 48%:

M 46% Respondents voted 51% for Bush and 47% for Kerry

F 54% Respondents voted 45% for Bush and 54% for Kerry

Compare this to the first released weighted polling of 8345 Respondents posted at 3:59:05PM, 11/02

Kerry leads Bush 51% to 48%:

M 42% Respondents voted 51% for Bush and 47% voted for Kerry

F 54% Respondents voted 45% for Bush and 53% for Kerry

[Straight Shooter]

87. Please check the next-to-the-last line of your post

Did you mean to write M 46% Respondents instead of M 42% Respondents?

And I have another question: If althecat got it from TIA, how did TIA get it? (I sure wish he could post here *sigh*)

[flpoljunkie]

101. Yes, this was the figure for males, 42%, from the first exit polling.

Actually, I typed the wrong number for females; it is worse than I posted; 58% Female Respondents voted 535 for Kerry and 45% for Bush!

Don't know the answer to your second question.

[Straight Shooter]

102. Thanks.

Maybe TIa will contact althecat with source of info.

This is just rhetorical, but why the f*** are we doing the work of the congress critters for them?

[Calvinist Basset]

106. I don't understand your comment.

Why cant TIA post here?

[flpoljunkie]

116. ERROR! That was 1:24:53PM, NOT AM, the NEXT day, November 3rd!

This seems fishy, indeed!

[emlev]

57. Sent to...

...counsel for the democratic sfaff of the House Judiciary Committee.

[peacebird]

60. Does it matter? I mean - and I really HATE to say this...

it's not like the Dems in Congress will suddenly grow balls or spines needed to push this hard and it's not like MSM is going to start spreading this info to the masses ... and it's not like my fellow citizens (excepting DUers of course!) have the courage shown in the Ukraine, and finally it's not like bush & company will decamp the seats of power willingly....

though it is nice to see that more of my fellow citizens voted against the evil-doers than MSM wants us to think!

[loudsue]

61. ALL DUers need to send these out, to ALL the powers that be....

Don't trust that just because ONE DUers says they sent 'em out that they will actually GET THERE!

The more the merrier, I always say! Let's let them all know that we have ALL seen these numbers, and WE KNOW!!!

:kick::kick:

[pbartch]

72. If you want these sent to THE POWERS THAT BE

PROVIDE EMAIL ADDRESSES FOR US!!

Give us e-fax numbers

Tell us what to say and where to send it and we will!!!

[GregD]

62. Done ( I have a contact on the Judiciary staff)

I sent it to her.

[merh]

65. Glad you sent it on!

We have to keep the info flowing! Thanks. :hi:

[alberg]

66. WHAT WE CAN DO RIGHT NOW IS .....

The office of Representative John Conyers of Michigan confirmed late last night that he and several other Congressmen are planning to object— to formally challenge— the vote of the Ohio electors when the Electoral College ballots are opened before the joint session of Congress next Thursday.
Conyers says he is still seeking a Senator to join the House members— whom he does not name— and has written to each member of the Senate asking them to join him.
Let’s give Mr. Conyers some help.
Contact every Senator by email and phone and let them know how important it is to support this effort. Objecting to the Ohio electors will not, by itself, overturn the election results. But it will initiate a much needed discussion by Congress of the significant problems in Ohio, problems of numerous unexplained irregularities in the Ohio presidential vote, many of which appear to violate both federal and state law. This is an important effort to debate and highlight voting issue in Ohio which disenfranchised innumerable voters.
Please don’t put this off. The vote is on 1/6/2005.

Let’s work together to reclaim American Democracy.

[burythehatchet]

100. I'm going to call Zell right now!!!

:)

[alberg]

121. good joke! now, will you be focusing on the others?

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[genieroze]

69. Have a nice stay. eom

[alberg]

70. your the one who doesn't get it

Are you afraid of what will come out if the Ohio vote is challenged. why? If exit polls differ from the official results it's one indication that there might have been election tampering. Why not investigate and see what happens? That's how we seperate truth from falsehood in a free society.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[keepthemhonest]

81. hey

little Fargo. Kerry won get over it.Getting a little nervous,eh?

The freepers always come around whenever something juicy is found or is getting ready to happen and they try to interfere, but it won't work.don't worry we won't let you and the greedy self-serving administration bring down our country. You see that is the deifference between us and you is that we are not self serving individuals we can see the big picture and we have a tolerance for different people and different ways of living and religion.Open-mindedness. Even for freeps

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[keepthemhonest]

84. no

the repukes and their greedy misadministration will be gone and they will leave a poor reputation for repukes to clean up in their wake.
Justice will be served, mark my words.Justice will be served.

[Clark2008]

125. My God, they're stoopid!

Read this "brilliant" observation:

One final BIG Point is the so called UNDERVOTES! THESE ARE NOT VOTES! They are ballots where no discernible vote for president was cast, in other words the person voted for NONE OF THE ABOVE! How hard is it to believe that 90,000 people out of 6 million decided not to vote for anyone for president? In Ohio none of the above was not a choice to mark on the ballot, so voters who were displeased with the choices simply skipped the President box and moved on. Here in Nevada, None of the above was on the ballot and got almost as many votes as Nader!

Umm, freepers... duhhhh.. Do you REALLY believe that 92,000 people in ONE state waited in line for up to eight hours to vote for dog catcher? Please join the rest of us in reality...mmmmkay?

[mulethree]

76. Same sort of nonsense

Same sort of nonsense as the Census on which we base the numbers of congressmen and their districts.

Same sort of nonsense will get you audited by the IRS

Same sort of nonsense that sets your property tax rates

Same sort of nonsense thats used by banks and insurance companies to detect fraud

Same sort of nonsense thats used to bust organized crime, money launderers and embezzlers

Same sort of nonsense that justifies fingerprints and DNA as 'unique' identifiers

But, in most cases, it's used as evidence of 'probable'. Then you get investigations, subpeonas, audits, hearings, appeals etc. To prove or disprove. You get discovery to uncover 'harder' evidence.

Where are the hearings, investigations, subpeonas etc. in this case where there are multiple indications of massive fraud?


"Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after justice: for they shall have their fill."

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JoAnnSimon]

82. Exit Polls

The just re-voted the entire Presidential election in Ukrain because exit polls showed the other guy the winner, and OUR government was in total support of the rationale for the re-vote, i.e., the Exit Polls were correct and the vote talleys were fixed.

[mulethree]

71. The sense of it

Most of the exit poll analysis are done based on CNN data.

CNN had some technical glitch (supposedly) which kept late-evening poll numbers up until the wee hours of the morning, they were then replaced with 'final' polls that mysteriously narrowed the gap between earlier polls and the vote results.

So a lot of analysis done on data thats doubtable :
If it's made available because of a machine glitch
then
Couldn't it also be wrong because of that machine glitch?

So here we have official numbers with no 'glitch interference' which
shows early (4pm - ish) later (7:30 PM -ish) and final (next day 1:30 pm-ish) data.

[Learning2Fly]

80. Speaking of Farthole44

Liberals are banned from posting at their site. Why aren't Freepers banned here? I know we respect freedom of speech unlike FR, but rarely do they come here except to engage in verbal abuse.

[mulethree]

88. You answer yourself

"I know we respect freedom of speech unlike FR"

I do like hearing rational arguments/discussions/opinions from
other viewpoints. Let them in, link to them etc.

Keep out the verbal abusers and those who argue just to argue.

It must be hard distinguishing from a person on a rant, constructive flamebait versus wasteful incitement ... etc.

I think the DU moderators are good in this regard.

[JoAnnSimon]

103. Exit Polls

All the sudden changes in Exit Poll results vs. actually vote count results came during the time the polls actually closed and before the final vote count was tabulated.

The Exit polls in several swing states, including Florida, Ohio, New Mexico, and several others, indicated that more voters had voted for Kerry than Bush by about a 2.5% point margin.

Even Karen Hughs (from articles I've read with inside the White House sources) thought that Bush was going to lose, and told him so about the time nationwide polls were closing.

From another article in the mainstream press, where facts were leaked from the White House (and why don't I make a record of these articles as they're written?), attested that Karl Rove was working in a separate room--his own control central--working the computers, confident that there would be a Bush win.

Since the Exit Polls were consistently showing Kerry the winner, who was Rove in touch with, and why were the election results, especially in Florida, the mirror opposite of what the Exit Polls were predicting?

There are many theories and rumors out there, but as an average citizen and voter, I want to know how and why the vote tallies differed so much from the Exit Polls, which have historically been proven to be accurate within 1-2%. The difference between the Exit Poll results, and the final vote Tally in Florida was a difference of 4 to 6%. The Kerry lead of 2.5 to 3% in the Exit Polls, was reversed to a 2.5 to 3% lead for Bush in the final vote count.

Sorry, but I don't think that kind of sudden reversal of results is even remotely feasible, especially since the Exit Polls at 7:33 pm showed Kerry with a significant lead over Bush.

My conclusion is that this election was fixed, not only by voter discrimination, et. al, but by computer manipulation of final vote counts. It would only take one computer technician to hack into vote collection centers in heavily populated Democratic voting areas and switch enough Kerry votes on electronic voting machines (with no paper trail) to Bush, to change the actual voting results. And, of course, there would be no way to catch them, because there is absolutely no paper trail.

If you refuse to acknowledge the possibility of electronic voter machine fraud, then you have to prove that either most of those answering Exit Polls earlier in the day lied, or suddenly there was an onslaught of Bush voters going to the polls after 7 pm. I don't see either scenario as likely.

The Main stream Media across the country has absolutely buried this story of election fraud. There ARE legitimate questions out there that need investigation, yet our media refuse to investigate or cover it. WHY? Where have all our good investigative journalists gone?

It seems it's now up to us, the average American defenders of our democracy to take over from these comatose media spokespeople and get the truth out there on our own.

[sunnystarr]

79. I'm confused. How does this differ with the exit poll data on CBS?

How do you know which is correct?

http://election.cbsnews.com/election2004/poll/poll_p____u_s__all_us0.shtml

Isn't this the same exit poll that CBS, Fox, CNN, etc went in on? Is the data on the CBS site the data that changed around 1am?

This CBS one seems to reflect all precincts reporting.

[ClintCooper2003]

86. The National Election Pool includes all the data that was...

being sent to CBS, MSNBC, CNN, FoxNews, etc... At 1:00 a.m., they decided to use some of the results to influence the final posting for the exit polls. They freely admit to doing this. I'm sure they probably huddled and decided it would be best for the country for the exit polls to reflect the "actual tallies." But this totally invalidates and contaminates the entire exit poll data.

Anyway, these original exit polls are totally legit. I remember reading them on election day. Amazing aren't they?

[sunnystarr]

123. TY :) and yes it truly is amazing! (nt)

[Warren Stupidity]

127. I don't know about the huddled conspiracy part

My understanding is that after the polls close they start mixing the poll data with the tabulation data. The reason is that the exit poll data is meant to provide accurate prediction of the tabulation data. The couldn't give a rat's ass about vote verification, they just want to be predictive of whatever crap comes out of the tabulation.

The MSM assumption is that our system is obviously above reproach. Any evidence to the contrary is dismissed and no actions are required to validate this assumption. They are deliberately asleep at the wheel.

Like 9-11 they cannot even ask the questions, let alone investigate the issues.

[candice]

83. DOES CONYERS DEFINITELY HAVE THIS?

...hope that this can convince Mitofsky to release the data.

[ClintCooper2003]

90. I passed it to Arnebeck. Others said they passed it to Conyers. n/t

[candice]

93. I just emailed Arnebeck,too. What about Kerry/Edwards--someone in the

John Kerry forum wrote about getting off the phone with Teresa. Can this info get to Kerry/Edwards ASAP?

[flpoljunkie]

104. Do you have a link to this John Kerry forum?

[KerryReallyWon]

85. This should go to Susan Truitt as well...

She spoke of fraud, and these polls are used as indicators.

[babsbunny]

89. raw story

this has made it's way to raw story!

[teddyk23]

91. conyers staff has it and is looking into it

Thanks to you and his staff's obsessive compulsive reading for this forum.

[KerryReallyWon]

92. happy new year..

[candice]

95. It's getting happier. I may renew my faith in the American people

afterall. Remember those low exit polls for Bush before the election and how low they are after the election. Makes one wonder about his MANDATE, doesn't it?

[understandinglife]

94. It's so cool; they point straight to the file server and anyone can...

...click and download the .pdf!!!

That is truly rubbing Mitofsky and the networks face in it, big time :evilgrin:

Peace.

"Its 7 Jan 2005: do you know who your president is?"

[candice]

96. I even tried to get it to Drudge...aren't sure if it made it

I'm not registered.

[Alizaryn]

97. (Maybe I missed it but) Does anyone know where these came

from? I would like to include that before sending it out.

[candice]

98. Supposedly someone had this data who was initially going to use it, but

then wasn't able to. This person didn't pay the $10,000 fee for usage because it wasn't to be used, and is releasing this now because Mitofsky won't release the data to Conyers. Could all be bogus, but maybe it will force Mitofsky to release the data. What is there to hide? This is the first time data has not been released afterwards (or so I read). Please correct me if I am wrong about any of the above.

[Festivito]

105. This would make a great ROVE style trick.

On the eve of Conyers holding up the election. They'd know which piece of data was errant. (Like they knew that Bush guard CBS letter was forged.) The media would hang him, the doubt bringing acceptance to virulent RepubliCON attacks, and then dismissing the whole recount in the press.

The data would not have to differ by much, just one data point with a specific number they can expose. They would not have to say the correct value, just that one datum is wrong.

[candice]

111. there's really no reason that the repugs would want anything

to compromise an already done deal (coronation of George II). If they did, the media would be releasing the raw data as requested by Conyers (and Zogby).

[Festivito]

114. And, that is why Rove would love to plant something like this.

Conyers is threatening the "done deal" "coronation" for which RepubliCONs would love a flaw on which to focus the press. People listen to a controversial issue and hear about a flaw, the people dismiss the controversy. If the actual data from the media were released, Rovians would have to resort to other means. The non-release of the data should be a media issue.

NOTE: the file folder was last modified yeaterday, 31-Dec-04, yet all the files in it were modified in November. Curious.

[McCamy Taylor]

99. If these are the real numbers can they be crunched and used to

make a Exit poll/vote total comparison maybe by state for Kerry (ore whatever the unit of fraud turns out to be). Then use the exit poll/vote total for the original Ukrainian election by its unit of fraud and compare the two and create an article.

I notice that the MSM---NYT. Washington Post are being very careful not to mention that it was the exit polls that tipped the world off the problem and made the solution possible.

[spooked]

109. kick

n/t

[Vote4Kerry]

110. Excellent find kick n/t

[Divine Discontent]

112. KICK Happy NEW year!! n/t

[Festivito]

115. Why is the parent folder last modified 31-Dec-04???

..When all the files inside it are from Nov-04?

And, we find this while people in NZ are sleeping and their offices and especially their computer gurus are on holiday.

Remember the CBS Bush-guard letter. The secretary said she wrote one just like it, but, the letter CBS had, was not the one she wrote. And, the whole guard issue was dismissed.

If this is planted. The whole election fraud story will be dismissed from the minds of the listening public.

[Warren Stupidity]

117. the directory date reflects

when the directory was last modified, as in the files were moved into it. The file date reflects when each file was last modified.

The data you are looking at (file and directory modification times) are consistent with moving these files into this directory on 12/31/2004 and that the files in question have not been modified since november whatever. File and directory modification times can of course be altered by agents intent on fraud, so they do not disprove fraud claims, but the data in question does not indicate fraud at all.

[TexasChick]

118. Warren, are you saying that none of the files have a modified time just

the directory? If so, that makes me feel better. It was kind of making me nervous that someone on DailyKos mentioned that these aren't secure PDF files.

I haven't taken a look at the data because, unfortunately, it's all greek to me! Thanks.

[Warren Stupidity]

119. I'm saying that

the files all have a modification time of 17-NOV-2004 12:xx and that the parent directory has a modification time of 31-DEC-2004 17:50 and that this is consistent with files last modified on 17-NOV being moved into a directory on 31-DEC.

But just to complicate the issue: while this does not indicate fraud, it also does not prove that the files are the 'real deal'. You raised a concern regarding the difference between modification times on the files vs the containing directory. Your specific concern is not a problem. The validity of the files in question remains unresolved and I share the general concern expressed here that we not fall victim to yet another rovian dirty trick.

On the other hand, there are two ways to go with the double cross misinformation problem. 1) err on the side of caution and not act on the information. 2) go with it, regardless of its validity.

It seems to me that (1) is a victory for the dark side. We don't talk about fraud for fear of saying something wrong. Note that they have no problem at all lying their evil asses off. When confronted they just move on to the next lie, which by the way, they always seem to have ready.

(2) has the Rather problem. We end up discussing what an idiot Rather is instead of how * snorted his way through his TANG service.

What Rather should have done is gone with the flow: they pushed fraud onto him, the obvious question, still unanswered, is exactly who pushed the fraud? Where did the bogus letter come from? Who was behind the disinformation campaign? Why did they think it was important to slip bogus information into the growing story about * and his disservice? When pushed: pull. Go with the flow. Use jui-jitsu on their evil asses.

We've been given a gift. We should run with it wherever it takes us.

[TexasChick]

120. Yes, I agree with you. Thanks! n/t

[Festivito]

122. Or, 3) be forward in its use and make issue of blocked info.

Why won't a company give voting information to our elected representatives. And, who would have blocked subpoenas.

[shraby]

124. In order to prove that the files

on scoop are wrong, Mitofsky would have to release his data, or the networks would have to. This won't happen because their data would show essentially the same thing...that Kerry won.

[Warren Stupidity]

126. yup exactly.

If it ain't the real data let Mitofsky prove it by coughing up the real data.

It still leaves open the question of why the last batch of numbers (the 130pm nov 3 numbers) are flipped for Bush. My understanding is that Mitofsky's method included combining exit poll data with tabulation data. But unless I'm missing something you can't show that from the posted results. All we have is 7:xxpm its 51 48 Kerry vs 18 hours later its 51 48 Bush.

[TexasChick]

131. How can we legally make that Mitofsky fella release his data, shraby?

How is he getting away with this? Is it because he did the polling (was paid to do it) and so he legally owns the data? :shrug:

[davidgmills]

132. No doubt there are contracts between him and the networks

Most likely, since the networks want the "scoop," and are paying him to collect the information, he is obligated only to divulge it to them as part of his contract for some period of time.

If there wasn't such a clause in the contract, he would be free to give the information to anybody and the networks would have paid for the collection of information, but lose the scoop.

I'm sure he's bound not to disburse it for a certain period of time.

This data is property and Mytofsky has property rights to it. Alhecat said he had the right to buy this information, so Mytofsky must have the right to sell it after the scoop period is over. If the data is for sale, purchase would be the easiest option.

If he won't sell it, a suit by a state AG might be able to acquire it. States have the right under their eminent domain laws to take the property of private citizens when doing so is in the interst of the general public. The state would have some interest in disclosure of the data because the data is being collected pursuant to a state function and in many (mayby nearly all)cases being collected on state property. But this would have to be an an action by the state and if so, maybe the only data Mytofsky has to give up is that particular state's. The state would have to pay for it because this data is Mytofsky's property and under the constitiution, the state can't take a private citizen's property without just compensation for the property.

Unfortunately, when Conyers requested it, he was really asking for it as a private citizen, not as a governmental request. He didn't offer to pay for it as far as a I know. If the data is worth a lot of money, why should Mytofsky give it up for nothing?

If a private citizen wanted the information, and Mytofsy refused to sell it, I think a private citizen would have a very difficult getting the information.

This took some thinking to work through this. Other lawyers may want to chime in. I welcome their thoughts and ideas.

[TexasChick]

133. No, David, that was a perfect explanation. It's quite clear now, thanks.

But, why doesn't Conyers just try to buy it then as a governmental official? I don't understand that since it seems like the data can be bought from the Mitofsky guy.

If a private citizen wanted the information, and Mytofsy refused to sell it, I think a private citizen would have a very difficult getting the information.


Isn't it worth a try to buy it from Mitofsky as a governmental official and see if he bites?

[davidgmills]

134. Absolutely woth a try

I don't know if Conyers knows it was for sale. If Mytofsky offered it to althecat, I would think it would still be for sale. If you can find althecat (start your own post about it maybe), ask him what he understands the cost is.

I would doubt that Conyers would pay for it out of his own pocket, but if the data is still for sale, maybe the data can be bought.

On the other hand, if Mytofsky is going to release it for free someday, a lot of people may want to wait. But I'm sure by then it will be too late to do much good.

By the way, I grew up in Galveston, went to Law school in Houston, practiced in Houston and Conroe for 18 years before tort reform made me decide to move to Memphis.

[TexasChick]

137. Thanks for your help, David. I just send a private message to althecat.

Glad to see you were in Texas for a while. I'm native. Again, thanks!

[CTPatriot]

128. File Modification Dates

FYI - While the Nov. 17th File Modification dates are definitely cause for suspicion, it is also entirely possible that those dates accurately reflect the date that the files were SAVED to the scoop.nz servers, and NOT the date that they were actually last modified or created. It all depends on the manner in which the files were transferred and saved.

For example, if the files had been sent to scoop as part of a large ZIP file, their originating dates (One would hope for Nov. 2nd dates if they had been obtained the original Mitofsky files) as stored in that ZIP file would be the ones that display in the scoop download folder. However, if the files were transfered and saved one at a time, their dates/times would most likely show up as the date/time that they were transferred to scoop.nz.

You can replicate this behavior by going to the scoop.nz link, pointing at a file to download with your mouse, then right clicking on the file and selecting "Save Target As..." and saving the file to your PC's hard drive. Then navigate to that file and examine its properties for the date/time modified and you will see that Nov. 17th has changed to the exact date/time you downloaded the file.

[Festivito]

129. One 12:45 amidst 22 12:46's

The files seem to have been ordered by name, then copied. But, ...
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/pdfs/Mitofsky4zonedata/US2004G_3798_PRES04_WE_V_Data.pdf
is 12:45 after 17 of 22 12:46's.

If someone has typed in these dates and times they may have slipped once. Also, internally, I believe, the date-time is kept with more fraction of second detail. It would be interesting to find out if these fractions are all zero for these files.

CONs own the media, one specter of doubt gives them undo unreasonable ammo against us.

There are 60 files. 3 *2 *5 *2 => 60. 3* 12:44 + 22* 12:45 +22* 12:46 +13* 12:47, or 60*.
******
US2004G
****** 3
_3737
_3798 <--
_3970
****** 2
_HOU04
_PRES04 <--
****** 5
_EA
_MW
_NONE
_ST
_WE <--
****** 2
_H
_V <--
******
_Data.pdf

edited for author's confusing dyslexia.

[Blower]

130. In a nutshell, what is your analysis of this data?

Thanks--


Dan
www.libertywhistle.us

[benderrodriguez]

135. Give it up, please

Why do we keep deluding ourselves into thinking that the worthless, lazy mainstream media is going to pick up on this data?

Give it up, folks. In a few weeks, Bush will enjoy his inauguration. Nothing is going to stop this from happening. He won't be impeached for stealing two elections. And our country will continue its downward spiral toward hell. The disaster in Iraq will worsen, and soon we will have to endure the sodomization of Social Security.

Our only hope is that by 2008, the Democrats will nominate a mold breaker, someone like Wesley Clark (who should have been the nominee this time and who would have won a fraud-proof victory over Bush last November, but that's a pointless argument now).

But, please, for your sanity, give up hoping that some miracle is going to happen. I held out for the longest time, too, so sure was I that Kerry was going to prevail. But it's not going to happen, no matter how much proof is out there.

[katinmn]

136. First post and you are telling us what to do?

Nah, I don't think so.

[benderrodriguez]

138. Get over yourself.

What do the quantity of my posts have to do with anything?

Look, I'm heartbroken that we're not going to see John Kerry inaugurated in three weeks' time. I was a volunteer. I knocked on doors. I did everything I could to help Kerry win.

My point, very simply, is this: Bush is going to be inaugurated, and there's nothing we can do about it.

So whether my pointing the facts out occurred in my first post or my thousandth is completely irrelevant.

I've been a visitor to this site for a long time. What finally prompted me to register and post was that I'm tired of people hoping for a miracle. That's all.

If I offended you by pointing out the obvious, that's your problem, not mine.

[Name removed]

139. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[benderrodriguez]

140. Condescending to whom?

Thanks for the welcome.

I'm not condescending to anyone. What's condescending is the initial response to my first post, where the poster seems to say that because my first-ever post didn't fall in line with the prevailing opinion, it shouldn't be taken seriously. Now, that's condescension.

Does anyone on this forum genuinely believe that idiot-in-chief is not going to be inaugurated in fewer than three weeks? If you do, not to be rude, you're insane.

I didn't post to get into an argument with anyone, honest. I'm pretty sure we're all on the same side. My point, again, is this: No matter what proof exists that Bush and Co. stole this election -- and I have no doubt that the vermin did steal this election -- the lazy, worthless mainstream media will continue to ignore it, and Bush will serve a second term.

That's all. I'm not condescending to anyone in this forum, and I'm not looking for a fight.

[mattclearing]

144. Well, there are people who believe it won't happen, and you just...

...called them insane. That's condescending.

[katinmn]

141. Your first post and all you have to say is "give it up?"

after months of lurking your contribution to this entire board is "give it up?"

uh-huh.

[TexasChick]

142. katinmn, I'm not trying to start a fight w/ you, but elad posted to all

of us about commenting on the number of posts a member has. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x123856


I just want you to be careful in the future about doing that. I just don't want you to get into a dilemma with the mods. We all have different views about this and it's all good!



:hug:



Edited to correct the hug emoticon.

[katinmn]

146. thanks for the reminder!

I shall try to be more tactful.
:P

[TexasChick]

147. LOL! It's all good my friend, we're all on the same team, just different

viewpoints. Here's to us! :toast:

[katinmn]

148. Cheers

O8)

[benderrodriguez]

143. Okay, I'll try one more time

I don't even know why I'm wasting my time, but I'll try again.

1. The mainstream media ignored during the campaign and will continue to ignore the facts about George Bush.

2. As a result, it seems fairly certain that Bush will be inaugurated in a few weeks' time.

No matter how much solid proof is unearthed that shows election-day chicanery on behalf of Bush, the press is going to continue to ignore it. You do realize this, don't you?

As far as my "lurking" is concerned, please give it a rest. I have volunteered on Democratic election campaigns since I was in high school (Gary Hart in 1984). I don't need to prove my party bona fides to you or anyone.

Just because I have but a few posts on this forum doesn't mean they're any less valuable than the thousands of posts you've submitted. Britney Spears has a whole bunch of albums to her name. Are any of them good? Conversely, if the Pittsburgh Steelers win the Super Bowl, is Commissioner Tagliabue not going to give them the Lombardi Trophy because they have a rookie quarterback? I think not.

[Sydnie]

145. You said

I've been a visitor to this site for a long time. What finally prompted me to register and post was that I'm tired of people hoping for a miracle.

Sorry, but you can't tell anyone to stop hoping just because you did and not be seen as condesending and confrontational. People will hope or lose hope on their own by what evidence, or lack there of, means something to them.

Having said that, welcome to DU.

[babsbunny]

149. Welcome!

AMEN! I think secretly the powers that be are tired of looking at W, he is making the Republicans look bad. I think if we get solid proof of fraud, (and if we keep working hard and praying) we can at least look forward to an impeachment!

[hraka]

150. Clint Curtis sworn testimony before members of House Judiciary Committee

I found this at http://www.crooksandliars.com/2004/12/18.html#a1102

"The full Clint Curtis sworn testimony before members of House Judiciary Committee is now available here. (Previously, we only had links to a portion of his testimony, which did not include his naming of Rep. Tom Feeney (R-FL) as having asked him to write the "vote-rigging software prototype! This clip now includes all of Curtis' testimony!)"

http://movies.ziaspace.com/12-13Curtis.wmv

[chomskysright]

151. this is still worth kicking....

just catching up with this. had to take a break. will call senators now and send out faxes in a moment.

[chomskysright]

152. kick!