Congressman Bernie Sanders just said (on the Thom Hartmann

[JoMama49]

show) that he doesn't think any Senator will stand up with Conyers on the 6th. He said they don't think there is any evidence of actual fraud -- just irregularities, so that's why they won't contest on the 6th.

[Wabbajack]

1. Is Sanders gonna stand up?

Is there a list of Reps who are?

[liam97]

2. I don't think he will

but he did not indicate having a sound understanding of these issues

[berniew1]

86. Then you can send him documentation of touchscreen fraud in 3 states

Widespread touchscreen machine fraud documented in Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

[rox63]

3. He'd better stand up

He's the only member of congress I know of who ever ran for office as a member of the Socialist Party. That's about as liberal as it gets.

[liam97]

4. But I listen to him every week

and his analysis does not strike me as the brightest

[Wabbajack]

7. Actually

he is not a member of any party afaik. He's always called a socialist but I've never heard him call himself one.

There have been a couple Socialist party members elected

see http://bioguide.congress.gov/biosearch/biosearch.asp

[HeyManThatsCool]

13. Lame

All anyone will say is that there are "irregularities".
Are they talking about voting or bowel movements?

In all seriousness, this is the part of the system that
makes me want to pull strands of my own hair out.
People are afraid to do anything for fear that they will lose
"capital" with other Senators etc. They very rarely seem to worry about their constituents--- unless they happen to be major donors.

This pussy footing around, scared to take a stand crap isn't what I voted for... & I don't think any of you did either.

I really think that the time is coming to start reminding these people who have been in "power" for years and years (Ted Kennedy being one- he isn't going anywhere but he wont help the cause!?!?!)that we voted them in- and (once a voting system is put in place that actually works) we can vote them out.

[tx_dem41]

70. Doesn't a Senator have to stand up? n/t

[mountainvue]

94. Yes. n/t

[mountainvue]

93. You can bet Conyers,

Maxine Waters, Robert Wexler, Rush Holt, Jerrold Nadler and Robert Scott will.

[still_one]

5. They should have done it in 2000

the cowards will do nothing now

[liam97]

6. We should bombard him with letters

copy to Hartmann

[KaliTracy]

9. yes!

[pbartch]

73. We should send this this link showing VOTE FRAUD/ EXIT POLL DATA

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/pdfs/Mitofsky4zonedata/ I don't understand what this is.


I found this thread on Democrat Underground here ......

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x215277

[KaliTracy]

8. Write Bernie Sanders, asking him to prove the evidence you

give him is not evidence. WHAT evidence did they have of going over to IRAQ and blowing cilivians up in the name of "Democracy?"

(I don't know if he voted for or against the war, but this is just making me sick....)

[delphine]

71. Lets face it people. We can be angry at all of these guys but

the ONE man who can bring this issue to the forefront and make it count is going to be in Iraq that day.

The ONE man who can make the MSM or anyone else wake up and listen about widespread voter intimidation, supression, fraud (telling people they aren't on the list/sending them to the wrong precinct/mismanaging their provisional ballots/asking for I.D./threatening to tow their cars/not enough machines, et al) will not even be there.

And has said nothing so far.

The reason people like Sanders, Kennedy, et al are so willfully ignorant of this suppression is that no one people will listen to is willing to call it out.

It doesn't have to be racially based. It doesn't have to be evil or deliberate. The results were anywhere from 50% to 7% "turnout" (i.e., actual votes) in these areas. We don't need to prove fraud. We can demonstrate that people who wanted to vote and tried to vote were not able to do so. It's on video.

We have it on video and yet no one in the MSM has covered it? Why? How is it that Rove would have had this played 24/7 on CNN et al and we can't get anyone to watch it? I have no answer for that.

Except if John Kerry held a press conference where he referenced the videos or showed a portion of it or simply mentioned one or two examples of how it was logistically impossible everyone who wanted to vote to actually vote - the media would sit up and listen.

No one thinks it's okay to blatantly keep people from voting.

And they don't need tin foil hats to see this is a travesty.

I guarantee everyone in both the House and Senate would be compelled to stand up against this if it were made a public issue because it's wrong - even if they are racist and hateful, they know they have to appear to think it's wrong.

Only one man can make them listen.

[EFerrari]

10. More cr@p. We can't let them slime out of their oath with this

"irregularities" prevarication.

[EFerrari]

17. It's not irregular if they steal it every time. The suppression of

the Black vote is not irregular. Corrupt Republican SOSs are no longer irregular. We have that ON TAPE.

TIA has done enough work with the exit polls to make their eyes cross.

And, Bush was obviously the default on those vote switching machines.

Also ON TAPE, the TRIAD techie saying that in all recounted OH counties, the machines were SERVICED prior to the recount. And we have Cobb's report.

Irregular my bald headed granny. That's fraud.

[Straight Shooter]

46. Don't forget, 99.9 percent of irregularities all fell in bush's favor

But I'm sure that's just the Lord God of Election Fraud watching over his favored son.

[gmoses]

11. but what if those irregularities pose a pattern of civil rights abuse?

can't a Democrat help Conyers on Civil Rights grounds? Republicans are backlashing on minority opportunities in elections. This is what connects Florida 2000, Ohio 2004, and even Texas this week (Brenda Denson-Prince in Kaufman County, Hubert Vo in Houston).

The Civil Rights issue speaks to the moral heart of the Democratic Party not to mention its most loyal voters.

Really folks, if Democratic leadership and Liberal Dems can't stand against egregious patterns of civil rights abuse, then please remind me, what is this party good for?

[femme.democratique]

12. Tis' not good for much, I am so sad to say...

[JoMama49]

14. His closing remarks in response to a caller alleging that there

is plenty of proof of fraud, was that he (Bernie S.) knows people who spent months and months of their lives working for Kerry in the Ohio election. He said these people don't believe Kerry won the election, and that's what he's basing his belief on.

[EFerrari]

18. Bernie needs to be enlightened. He's supposed to be in the

reality based community, no?

[glitch]

22. Been trying to enlighten him for years - he just can't wrap his head

around vote machine fraud. Or, at least that's how he's playing it. If Thom Hartmann can't get through to him, and he talks with him every week, the probably can't be budged.
I think he represents a lot of Congress. He even stated why he wouldn't believe it, without the illusion of democracy (my paraphrase) there would be no participation in the process at all.
He's trying to save what little participation remains. I think it's a mistake, the only way to save participation is to clean up the process and prove participation matters.
Moribund.

[EFerrari]

29. Well, if his constituents call/mail and express their position,

he has to move or they can "vote" him out.

He can't have it both ways.

And that's the strategy.

[Clark2008]

36. What difference does that make?

Unless these people spent months and months of their lives working for Diebold, ES&S or Triad, then they're not qualified to judge whether Kerry won or lost.
That makes no sense.
That's like saying that someone won't believe in Santa Claus because they spent years working for Toys "R" Us. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[SammyWinstonJack]

38. OH Well! There you have it!

.."knows people who spent months and months of their lives working for Kerry in the Ohio election" ......"these people don't believe Kerry won the election," All DUers busting your butts to uncover election FRAUD have just been wasting your time apparently, based on what Bernie S believes. How sad! :argh:

[wrate]

83. Wow!

"He said these people don't believe Kerry won the election, and that's what he's basing his belief on."

This has got to be the supidest answer in the history of stupid answers.

[Cheswick2.0]

26. The votes of African Americans do not count

supression of poor people in cities is not really and issue. There are so many of them all shoved into one small piece of land. Poor people in cities are like cockroaches, how can you count them anyway when they are scurrying around from district to district like gypsies?

If they were spread out over lots of land which they owned then they would matter.

</sarcasm>

[GuvWurld]

15. This is why the movement must be about more than the most recent fraud

Is this stolen "election" really the first and only proof that we are not a democracy anymore?

Free speech zones
"Safe" seats in Congress
Secret military budget

Need I go on? Our revolution will not hinge on what the definition of fraud "is" - nor any other single issue. Dems and Reps are the only folks in charge and collectively share all responsibility and blame for where we are today.

Do not kid yourselves that either group will suddenly be our heroes when they have been working for so long to create the system by which we are currently controlled. If you are going to even bother going to Senators and Congressmembers to ask them to step up, at least tell them the full extent of the change that is needed - we have no basis for confidence in this government.

A better move: go to your local City Council with the No Confidence Resolution.

[chapel hill dem]

16. I think the likely Senators are looking to Kerry

for a signal to challange or not. Since Kerry will be out of Washington on January 6th, that alone may be the "stand down" signal.

[HeyManThatsCool]

19. They need to

fight for the PROCESS being FAIR--- not just for K/E.
If Kerry is out of town, so be it.
That doesn't mean fraud didn't take place & it isnt an excuse to back down. This is bigger than John Kerry & any senator who is waiting for him to ride in on a white horse and take the first whack at this is nuts

[EFerrari]

20. Then we have to remind them who those votes belong to. n/t

[bunny planet]

76. or maybe the 'stand up' signal. There's more than one way of looking at

his trip to Iraq.

[wrate]

84. Agreed. The trip to Iraq could "isolate" Kerry from the scandal. n/t

[EFerrari]

21. We need to make a list of all those who try to slime out of this,

and write to them before AND after Jan 6.

Can someone who knows this site better than I do help?

Kennedy
Bernie

[JoMama49]

23. Now Hartmann talking again about election fraud --

says he and Bernie S. part company on the fraud issue. Thom is convinced that this is not the first election that was stolen. He is convinced that the election in Georgia where Max Cleeland lost was also rigged. But how to prove it? Now talking about the Washington recount and threat of lawsuits from the Repubs.

[quiet.american]

24. Dupe

[quiet.american]

25. Proof of fraud not required

Proof of fraud is not required to contest the results of the election -- am I wrong here?

If the Republicans had heard of even one vote defaulting to Kerry, of even one Kool-Aid drinker being intimidated into not voting, of even one voting machine deliberately held back from a district, of even one Democrat-owned voting machine company employee diddling the software, you can bet they'd already have worked this up into a lather of wrongdoing by every single Democrat in the nation, with John Kerry himself being hauled in for fingerprinting.

If all the Democratic senators leave John Conyers twisting in the wind on Jan. 6, it will send a real message of cowardice on their part to the entire world and will most likely disgust so many Democrats that they will have a true uphill fight on their hands to ever prevail in this country again.

[The Gigmeister]

27. Berni Sanders is a man of honor...

...I may not agree with him on all issues, but I know for a fact that he speaks from the heart and is about as far removed from a "Politician" as any congressperson can get.

I hope people here are not setting themselves up for a big fall again. Personally, I see irregularities, just as with every election in the past. But I could be wrong...I'm waiting on proof.

[EFerrari]

30. the systematic suppression of the black vote is a crime, period.

[The Gigmeister]

32. Has it been proven?

[liam97]

34. The discriminatory allocation of voting machines

is recorded and admitted by a BoE official. All details at freepress.org.

[The Gigmeister]

49. Was it discriminatory based on race, or...

...was it because black neighborhoods tend to less affluent and therefore, their preceincts have less money?

It's all about the preceincts in this country. I've been to some where I could bathe in the urinals and I've been to others were I wouldn't even think of entering the bathroom without a gas mask.

[liam97]

55. NO, it had NOTHING to do with money

machines were locked up in the warehouse and installed at the end of day

[EFerrari]

35. There is video of Ohio voters giving public testimoney and

remember Bob Fritrakis (sp?) articles at freepress.org?

And all the evidence compiled for the Moss suit.

If that had happened to white Republicans, can you imagine what would be happening right now?

[EFerrari]

37. And, they did the same thing with the student vote.

[illuminaughty]

90. Voting apartheid

We need to start using this phrase as much as possible. Call it what it is...rascism. Disenfranchise is too polite. Let the next civil rights movement begin!

[femme.democratique]

33. Your logic invites a catch-22 situation.

In a situation like this, you will need to spend time "digging" in order to find fraud. Problem is, most people don't want to spend the time because they "think" there will be nothing found. In a case like this, why do you think the Repukes in Ohio have been so uncooperative if they weren't trying to obfuscate what evidence is there? So, if people like you were the norm, nothing would EVER get done!

I'm sure Bernie is a good man, but come on...he is only hurting himself by not giving this issue proper respect. He will never be able to address his more socialist ideals until this issue is resolved and all voting systems & elections officials are NON-PARTISAN!

[Occulus]

28. call his office and mention this link

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/pdfs/Mitofsky4zonedata

If it's legit, it's very, very damning.

[liam97]

31. I would rather

just ask him to provide conclusive evidence that Bush won in Florida, NM and Ohio.

[mycatforpresident]

41. Do you know where the data came from?

[EFerrari]

54. Scoop got it from Mitofsky per althecat n/t

[bunny planet]

39. He also said he doesn't believe Kerry won.

He says he has friends that worked hard on the elections in Ohio and they don't think there was fraud. How would they know though, if shenanigi took place inside central tabulators, what had happened.

Thom Hartmann did say after Bernie was not on air anymore, that they disagree on the election, that Hartmann does believe the last three elections were stolen.

I don't think Bernie Sanders necessarily knows any more than any of us what the intentions of his fellow Senators are for the January 6th protest. I sure hope he is wrong. He had no credible explanation for why the Republicans fought tooth and nail to keep paperless voting machines, and prevented any verifiable voting w/ paper trails from being brought to a vote on the floor of Congress.

God, how I miss Paul Wellstone. We'd be assured of that Senate vote if he was still alive (and they hadn't stolen his Senate seat in 2002, they ended up stealing Mondale's when he stepped in to replace Wellstone on the ticket).

[liam97]

40. What enormously offended me

was that he said it was too easy to say there was fraud. Does he mean to say that all those people in Ohio, Conyers, the Glibs, Bonifaz, JJ are all working round the clock with no resources to take the easy option...? He doesn't have the right to be dismissive even if he disagrees.

[bunny planet]

42. I know, he seemed very nervous when the subject came up and anxious

to deflect the discussion to something else. I don't think he meant to be dismissive of other people's efforts, but it is ridiculous to say that fraud is too easy an explanation. It seems to be a glaringly obvious conclusion to reach and very ostrich-like of him not to want to acknowledge it. The fact that he works with the progressive Democrats committee in Congress and still assumes no Senator will come forward is discouraging. I can't help feel that anyone who is intending to would not telegraph it to anyone else, regardless of their political leanings, but instead, keep it very close to the vest.

[IStriker]

43. Why the hell would he or any Senator go out on a limb...

to stand up for Kerry when Kerry has sent his lawyer out to say he does not believe there was fraud. If Kerry won't stand up for himself, why would anyone else stand up for him?

[femme.democratique]

44. Since when is Kerry the only facet of this effort? If he's too cowardly...

...then others need to pick up the torch. Personally, I don't care if he doesn't want the job. Doesn't mean we shouldn't endeavor passionately to expose criminal activity THAT WILL AFFECT EVERY AMERICAN for years to come.

[bunny planet]

45. Yeah, but his other lawyer signed him on to the Glib lawsuit, what's up

with that, if they didn't think there was fraud, that wouldn't have happened.

[IStriker]

52. Flip Flop!

[bunny planet]

56. uh oh. your frip is showing.

[IStriker]

62. What is " frip?"

If you are not able to see that Kerry took every side of every issue I suppose for fear of alienating any voter, it's a little late to be considering why we lost the election.

[JoMama49]

47. The thing that is optimistic here is that someone like

Thom Hartmann believes there was fraud. He is a very cautious and studious guy. If he believes there was fraud and a rigged election, and it's obvious he strongly does, then we have a real crusader on our side. I think we should write and encourage Thom to have more people on his show who will speak out about this. I wonder if he could get Arnebeck or Fitrakis to come on, or even Conyers?

[femme.democratique]

48. He had Arnebeck on earlier this week.... eom

[JoMama49]

50. 11:10 a.m. - again talking about election fraud and

Bev Harris of BBV in Florida, thanks to a caller. He says he talked to Bev last week, and she is not releasing anything until she is sure she has the evidence of corruption. Now he's talking about how he had to publish a Mea Culpa after the Nation magazine criticized him for his Common Dreams article.

[JoMama49]

51. Thanks to a very reasoned, intelligent caller,

Thom said he needs to be even more forceful about this issue on his show, and he will, I'm sure!

[Kelvin Mace]

78. Yet another helpful ally burned by Bev

[glitch]

58. It was offensive - obviously the easiest answer is Bush won the votes

you don't even have to think to come up with that one. Let alone do all the work that the people in Ohio etc are doing.
Very lazy logic, not Bernies shining moment. And I like the guy.

[JoMama49]

53. Now talking about Dino Rossi in Washington State and

how Rossi brought in the father of a Marine stationed in Iraq saying that there are still thousands of votes that didn't count because soldiers in Iraq got their ballots in too late. Of course, we must assume that all service people in Iraq would vote for Rossi?

[Dancing_Dave]

57. FED EX BERNIE A BIG PACKAGE FULL OF EVIDENCE OF FRAUD!

Email gets thrown out with the spam.

Especially put in copies of academic studies indicating fraud, which is probably the most credible thing we have so far. Also, lawyers have written and compiled some great stuff on this, for example:
http://fairnessbybeckerman.blogspot.com/2004/12/evidence-of-fraud-and.html
Remember most politicians are lawyers...especially in the Democratic Party!

I'll also use the argument that DEMOCRATS WILL LOSE THE SUPPORT OF MINORITIES UNLESS WE STAND UP AND FIGHT AGAINST THEIR BEING SO FLAGRANTLY DISENFRANCHISED!

And I can find some pieces from Afro-Amercian oriented publications and sites showing that's exactly how they feel.
:headbang:

[delphine]

59. Why does there have to be fraud?

Can't it just be that thousands of folks were unable to vote because there weren't enough machines?

Or the votes may not have been counted correctly?

What a bunch of pussies.

[anamandujano]

60. Let's face it, our congresspeople know how to raise money, campaign,

and that's about it.

[IStriker]

64. Seems to me it is a bit odd to want the election overturned for fraud...

and then to ask, "Why does there have to be fraud?" Thousands of people were NOT unable to vote because there weren't enough machines because thousands of other people did not leave because the lines were long. They stayed and voted. If you were in line when the polls closed, you got to vote just as long as you stayed. "Or the votes MAY not have been counted correctly?" Then again, unless you have some proof that they were not counted correctly, we have to assume that they were. That's the way things work. If you have a beef, it's up to you to show some proof of it; if your proof is valid, there will be an investigation.

[delphine]

79. They WERE unable to vote. No one should be expected to

wait 4-11 hours in the rain to vote.

What if you have kids to pick up from school and dinners to cook and elderly folks to care for or just a fricken life to take care of?

Why should one group of people be expected to suffer in order to vote while others just waltz in and vote and go back to their golf games?

Sure, if they were willing to wait 10 hours the polls would have stayed open. Kids waited that long and the election was being called while they were still in line. If it took 30 hours for everyone to vote do you think people would have come at 7:00 (after 8 hours) to make sure they were in line and waited the extra 22 hours to vote? Kerry was standing in Fanueil Hall by then.

Here, watch the video and then get back to me.

http://oneblockover.net/dropbox/

[IStriker]

88. Something is wrong with your link. It doesn't work.

[delphine]

92. There are a couple threads on DU with links. n/t

[delphine]

96. These should work

http://homepage.mac.com/njenson/movies/ohio1.html
http://homepage.mac.com/njenson/movies/ohio2.html

[delphine]

80. Plus, I never said the election should be overturned for fraud

You're lumping me in with everyone else.

I'm saying there's plenty of reason to reject the election in Ohio (and Florida as well) without any allegations of fraud, just by showing the de facto "poll tax" that kept people from voting.

I'm saying that yelling fraud is just getting the way of the real issues.

I mentioned counting the votes because we might actually learn something if we did count them. Wierd stuff went on.

But we can't pin our whole "case" on wierd stuff and statisticaly anomalies (even though they did that in Ukraine and the real final tally was quite a bit different from the screwed-with tally).

People don't want to acknowledge wierd stuff.

There's plenty of problem just in undersupplying folks with voting machines and the other stuff on the videos.

[rigel99]

61. EVERYBODY Hang TIGHT

Evidence is coming..from GA, soon, hang tight....

We're going to get something substantial next week.

the timing is everything.

The congressman have the wrong friggin perspective.. they should make Ohio prove the election was valid, make Diebold prove their software does not steal votes.. what's the matter with these spineless jellyfish senators.. they agreed overwhelmingly to invade Iraq, even after massive waste of time/money and obvious failure there, continue to allow huge troop deployments, so we know they will not speak out and stand up for their beliefs, but follow the wave of idiocy, etc.... when I have fraud evidence, Bernie Sanders is the last person I will fedex it to.. It's a time for senators to follow their gut and work hard to push the right solution to this problem....

THINKING DIANE FEINSTEIN, any thoughts? I could send her a letter right now that would make her head spin off with WOW There is evidence of fraud in GA....

[spooked911]

66. what the heck are you talking about????

could you give us some hints please?

[JoMama49]

67. Rigel99! If you have evidence, by all means, call Diane

Feinstein's office! Is she your Senator? If not, she IS mine, and I'll contact her in a heart beat if what you say is true! Let me know!
JoMama.

[EFerrari]

72. I don't mean to be discouraging but DF has interests in both

Defense contracts AND in Big Pharma. She wrote me a really mendacious letter prior to the war and left me wondering why she bothers to be called a Democrat.

I just can't see her upsetting her applecart. But, that's me, and it may speak to expectation.

I've been writing to her too, but more as a message "I know what's going on" than in any expectation that she'd actually be helpful. fwiw

[IndyOp]

81. Help! Congressional Briefing on Vote Fraud in Ohio - FAX to Senators!

While we're waiting for evidence from Georgia -- share the evidence from Ohio!

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x217897>

:bounce:

[valis]

82. $100 to DU if a Senator stands up and contest the results!

It would be historic if one of them did. But I cannot believe it will happen.

[Carolab]

63. Earth to Bernie

For one thing, voter suppression is a documented fact. The machines were insufficient for the number of voters, while more machines were kept in a warehouse. So if you just go by that alone, there is reason for the senators to stand.

[buddysmellgood]

65. If you take all the "irregularities" together, you see a botched election.

Just because they can't pin it on one person does not mean the election was fair. It seem to me that people could be shot at the polls and those spineless bastards would call it an "irregularity."

[loudsue]

68. THIS is why we need to have MILLIONS of Dems in D.C. on Jan 6th....

Not just Dems, but ANGRY, DEMANDING Dems, by the millions, filling up the streets and hanging out the windows of every building, waving signs, and using bullhorns.

ANY Dem Senator that DOESN'T stand up with the Representatives should be targeted and replaced in the next primary with a progressive Dem who would stand up for the votes of the people against slimey corporations.

:kick::kick::kick:

[liam97]

69. Could not agree more

with signs saying "Bush won? Prove it"

[IStriker]

87. Unfortunately, THEY don't have to prove anything...

the people who are claiming there was fraud or there was voter suppression have to prove that there was; not the other way around.

[liam97]

89. anyone making a claim

must prove it. They claim Bush won. They must be able to prove that if it is challenged

[IStriker]

95. All THEY have to do (if they can) is refute whatever evidence...

of fraud that is provided by the challengers. In our system, the people making the challenge must provide proof of wrong doing. If there is no proof that will stand up in a court of law, there is no challenge, just a bunch of noise.

Kerry has conceded which means acknowledging that * won the election plus he has had his lawyers say they do not believe there was any fraud involved; therefore, the burden of proof falls on US not THEM.

[EFerrari]

74. And since this may be hard to accomplish, we need to BLANKET

our Senators, whoEVER they are, with a demand to uphold their oath of office.

No matter what we think of them, the odds of their cooperation or even their party politics. We need to send a strong clear message.

And the timing IS everything. If they see an organized national effort, it will scare the cr@p out of them.

What about, we countdown the New Year and email them all at midnight? See, that would have an impact.

[malatesta1137]

75. they won't contest it because they are

COWARDS. Good-bye Democratic Party, you're finished.

[loudsue]

77. Thanks, Captain Bring-down.

And Happy New Year to you, too! :party:

:kick:

[berniew1]

85. Touchscreen machine fraud documented in Florida, Ohio, and New Mexico-

But apparently no one has sent the documentation to Congressman Sanders. So how does one contact him? Don't you have to be from his district?
Documentation at:
http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

[fearnobush]

91. Yet an other spineless Democrat. DNC Wake the fuck up!!!!!

Or go the way of the Wigs. Contest this election. It's your last chance to grow a spine. I can't vote for spineless leaders.