Any evidence of fraud in the Ukraine besides the exit poll discrepancy?

[ClintCooper2003]

I haven't read any solid proof other than the exit poll discrepancy. There were reports of intimidation and voter abuse, but nothing more serious than what was seen in the United States. And there have been unfounded allegations of ballot tossing and ballot padding. But no real proof right? Just those stubborn exit polls.

So for all you people out there bitching and moaning that we have no proof, we now have the original exit polls from THIS COUNTRY on election day. The SAME exit polls which included a higher percentage of Bush voters than Gore voters from 2000. The SAME exit polls which showed "moral values" as the top issue for voters.

And, by the way, I SAW those original exit polls on CNN.com on election day. I called my Dad all excited and said, "Dad, exit polls are always right, aren't they?" And he responded, "Oh yeah, exit polls are reliable."

[New Earth]

1. not sure about physical evidence

but there were incidents caught on video of police violence committed against voters :(

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bill Bored]

3. Poisoning the opposition candidate was almost a "dead" giveaway!

But I guess that's more of an Equal Protection violation!

Still Kerry should probably have his Heinz Ketchup tested.

[ClintCooper2003]

4. LOL! Yes, that is true. n/t

[RaulVB]

5. They are reliable.

Zogby called the election for Kerry because he had enough data to do it.

Kerry won. They stole it.

[Bill Bored]

6. Sorry but I think our best evidence is that

there are X number of states (I'm looking it up) with no voter-verified paper ballots and the fact is that even those with the best of intentions don't have a clue whether or not the votes are being counted as cast in these states. THAT'S the evidence. It's evidence of gross negligence on the part of the states and it must be challenged in court if necessary until the elections can be audited to rule out fraud. In effect this is fraud, because the implicit claim by the states -- that they _do_ know the votes are being counted correctly -- is a fraudulent one. We don't need no stinkin' exit polls to prove that!

But good luck anyway. Maybe we'll get Mitofsky under oath and we can do more than just infer fruad based on his exit polls, but so far, his statements about the accuracy of his own polls have been less than inspiring.

[RaulVB]

7. Wrong lecture

CNN has manipulated the poll numbers posted on their website to justify "election results."

That's illegal.

[Bill Bored]

10. CNN or Mitofsky?

I did say he should be put under oath, didn't I?

[sandnsea]

9. Machine "malfunction"

Then for god's sake do a comparison by brand of machine, across the entire country. Compare memory card failures, battery failures, programming failures, whatever other failures. Why is it one way in one place and another somewhere else, with the same machine from the same company. Why did a few places not know the machines would count backwards, why didn't the same type of machines do that in other places. Do a comparison with whatever poll books you've got, where signatures don't match the machine vote or tabulation, whichever. Focus on the machine failures we know about and forget all the exit polls and statistical anomalies and unproven hacks and paperless trail counties, etc.

Then add a separate report on broken machines, power outages, lack of machines, wrong precinct ballots, and compare that to the preponderance of Democratic precincts it took place in.

SHORT, simple spreadsheets. No conclusions, just facts.

I've tried to put this together, but there's just too much information for one person to begin to manage it all.

[Bill Bored]

11. I agree

But meanwhile the legislative process to fix this must move forward. What you're suggesting would probably help but it has to be enough to "change the outcome" otherwise nobody cares.

My idea is to say the system is so screwed up that there no way to know who really wins elections anymore in most states. I'm still working on that list, but I do get distracted by all this exit poll talk.

[McCamy Taylor]

8. MSM arent reporting the exit poll-vote discrepancy anymore

Does anyone have a link? I think DU should put together a story based on known exit poll-vote count discrepancy in Ukraine and suspected totals in US based on last know exit polls here and public the findings on all sympathetic internet sites like Buzzflash in headline form. Make a graph of the two, show how close/far the two are from each other, contrast what has happened there and here.

[Bill Bored]

12. A simple graph is a good idea.

Maybe we can hire Ross Perot to produce one!
Graphs can be very convincing.

[candice]

13. Zogby said you used to be able to "go to the bank" with election

poll data at 1 P.M. That was in the good old days before people figured out how to make them match the desired results. The Edison/Mitofsky server went down at 11 P.M. on election night for 2-1/2 hours. When it was resuscitated, the results had flipped. For the outcome afterwards, see

ttp://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00142.htm

Also, John Zogby says "This President defied history and logic." The polls showed that 51% of the voters gave him a negative aproval rating and 51% said that the country was headed in the wrong direction and yet (if we believe the polls) 51% voted for him! He's calling for a "blue-ribbon panel" to uncover the "mistakes" -- wasn't expecting so many states to "flip." Of course, the election is legit (although 20% polled question the legitimacy of the election of George II-- from what I've learned, include me in that number for 2004 (2000 was a no-brainer swipe), and I have never been polled).