Fellow DUers, regardless of what happens on Jan. 6, know this...

[TruthIsAll]

We know
that
They know
that
We know
that
They know
that
Kerry won.

We can sleep well at night.
Can they?

[Cocoa]

1. I don't know Kerry won

I think he lost.

Edit: I also think Gore won in 2000.

[merh]

5. I know both Gore & Kerry won!

You should research the issues a little better. You are sadly mistaken about Kerry's success and you have been roved if you believe otherwise.

[TruthIsAll]

78. Let's be clear: The "they" I am referring to are the Senate Democrats n/t

.

[merh]

79. I understand that! Your meaning is clear to me. thanks

My post is in support of the position that Kerry won and in response to #1 post that said otherwise.

[Stand and Fight]

14. Pray tell...

In a sound and complete response, could you share with us why you think Kerry lost in light of the many failures of George Walker Bush as a leader?

Thanks.

[Cocoa]

17. a lot of people like the way Bush kicks Arab ass

and in addition, a lot of people hate gays and think voting for Bush punishes gays.

Also, a lot of people mistakenly think they benefit economically from Bush.

[Chimpanzee]

29. Yes, alot of pin-heads think those things

[In Truth We Trust]

63. You're right; there are a lot of ignoramuses' out there, but NOT 51 millio

n or whatever their bbv number was. I refuse to be an American Idiot and I believe the majority of us voted against this fucking monkey.

[fooj]

75. NEWSFLASH!!!! Bush ISN'T kicking Arab Ass...

They are blowing us up daily!!!:cry: Anyone who believes that we have our MISSION ACCOMPLISHED is truly living in lala land!


WHAT ARE THEY HIDING????:think: :think: :think: :think:

[corbett]

85. Jesse Jackson Believes

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/123104V.shtml

Remember, Reverend Jackson has stated clearly that his position is not one of crying over a lost election but screaming for a fair one. Trust me, Kerry won. I live in Florida. The Florida Democratic party had 400,000 more registered Democrats in the state than Republicans and a higher turn-out at the polls than Republicans and Kerry lost? No way!

Here's another goodin':

http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/110504V.shtml

It was an instant classic!

[ChiciB1]

88. I live in Florida Too!

And in Sarasota County where we out-registered Repukes this time around!! Still Cruella LURKS!

[knowbody0]

2. i know they know we know they know

god is truth, truth is all.snake will eat its own tail. we will prevail.
good day

[henslee]

3. That we're screwed anyway? And that we are days away from all

being taken to Gitmo light re-education centers?

[Walt Starr]

4. I know that Kerry lost

He lost because he had no clear stance on the war. He lost becuase that flip-flopper label stuck. He lost because he was seen as an effette snob who could not connect to the average person which he himself accentuated with photo-ops of him wind-surfing and snow-boarding.

What's even more shocking is how close he actually came to winning! He was a piss poor choice of a candidate and the Dems have only themselves to blame, even if some prefer to pull out the "fraud" bugaboo to shift blame just like Bush pulls out the Clenis or "Terra" to shift blame.

:eyes:

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[merh]

8. Ignore the exit polls, they are only legitimate in Venzulia and

Ukraine, for candidates that the weed supports. Just ignore them and move on.....

[roenyc]

10. Kerry won

he connected with many of the people. he could have done much more but he didnt lose. until he conceded. he handed it to the chimp just like gore did in 2000. two brave democrats afraid of a chimp. they just backed away just when it was time to fight.

[Walt Starr]

16. If Kerry won

why aren't we referring to him as President-elect Kerry?

Oh, that issue of Bush having actually won gets in our way!

[roenyc]

21. I dont call him president

Mr. chimp to me! he stole votes. didn't earn them. and 80% of my state went Kerry. our machines are older then you. no chance of cheating. and try disenfranchising a black New Yorker. yeah thats gonna happen!

[Walt Starr]

23. Prove he stole votes

Crickets chirping

allegations of election fraud does not a case make.

[FreepFryer]

33. Hi Walt

Just sayin' hi. :hi:

Ever notice how the argument is always "Start at square one and prove it"?

As if it's an attempt to channel your efforts there, instead of elsewhere?

Walt's made his opinion and crude intolerance well known.

:hi:

[Walt Starr]

51. Ever notice how requested proof is never supplied?

:hi:

I do mean never. Allegations, supposition, tinfoilhat conspiracy theories, but never evidence!

[FreepFryer]

61. BS. 36 Questions worth of fraud was supplied to every Senator in Congress.

You're getting tired - time for that nap yet?

[In Truth We Trust]

68. Hello Freep Fryer. Good job with the illinformed. Perhaps after his nappie

he can get up and do his reading time. A good selection might be Ohio law re: Prima Facie evidence, and a whole plethora of other EVIDENCE!!!!!!!!

[euler]

67. I've noticed too.

That doesn't mean I like you. You are obnoxious (in my opinion).

[roenyc]

80. hey i dont spend my life here! went to watch C-span

there is proof all over this forum, check some of it out. start with the exit polls - worked in Ukrain! should work here.

the proof will come out. it has to or we might as well not bother to ever vote again.

do you actually have confidence in the system? are you sure every vote was counted?

[fooj]

76. perhaps not...but asking the Ohio Supreme Court judge to throw out

lawsuits doesn't make you look exactly confident or comfortable in your own skin, either! Why the last minute request? Ho hum.



WHAT ARE THEY HIDING???:think: :think: :think:

[fooj]

77. BETTER YET...PROVE THAT HE DIDN'T!!!!!!!

AND MAKE SURE YOU'VE GOT PLENTY EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT THE CLAIMS......It goes both ways, you know!


WHAT ARE THEY HIDING???

[stillcool]

86. You never stop, do you? ...n/t

[goddess40]

11. Snob issue

I disagree with your stance that wind surfing and snow boarding are elitist. In WI it is not unusual for the "common" man to do both those sports. Once you have the equipment (and you can get it for a reasonable cost) it is inexpensive to wind surf and snow board. It is cheaper than golf which is to me very elitist.

[cali]

22. What world do you live in that

boarding and windsurfing aren't expensive sports? Yes you can buy the equipment for a fairly reasonable price, but if you're making minimum wage, or even twice minimum wage, even equipment costs are considerable. For windsurfing you need the leisure to do it and access to a lake or ocean. As for boarding, well I live in Vermont and ski. Even with in state discounts, it's incredibly expensive. A day lift pass without discount is over $50 bucks a day. The participants in these two sports are people with money.

[naryaquid]

48. ...And I guess Bush doesn't have any of that...uh...,money?!

[goddess40]

92. Live in Wisconsin

You can buy the equipment at a reasonable price because they have swap sales here where you can pick it up. Lakes are all over the place here. Yes, it does cost to buy a lift ticket but it costs to buy a round of golf also. As for leisure time, you have to have that to do any sport.

[merh]

12. Kerry won more votes than any other candidate before him,

including Big Dawg & st. raygun. None of the other candidates would have done as well, Kerry was the best. They would have bbq'd the others, hell, we could have run Jesus Christ or Dale Earnhardt or Elvis and we still would have lost.

[Blue_In_AK]

54. Thank you, Merh

Everyone forgets just how many votes Kerry received, even WITH the fraud. * can take his man-date and stick it up his ***.

[MellowOne]

19. You don't know the facts--he wasn't a snob just more intelligent than most

Official Recount Ends With More Problems Than Resolutions— But Indicates Kerry Might Win With A Full Recount

http://narcosphere.narconews.com/story/2005/1/3/93939/94239

Republican Secretary of State Kenneth J. Blackwell officially ended the recount on Tuesday, December 28, reported Bob Fitrakis, Steve Rosenfeld, and Harvey Wasserman of the Colombus Free Press.


Blackwell, who was co-chair of the Bush-Cheney campaign, announced that his recount awarded 734 additional votes to Kerry and 449 additional votes to Bush. Meanwhile, more than 92,672 machine-rejected ballots remain unchecked and uncounted, as do at least 14,000 provisional ballots. Conservative estimates of Kerry’s net gain among those ballots are another 36,000 to 40,000 votes. No accounting in the count or recount has been made for voters turned away at the polls due to insufficient voting machines, computer malfunction, tampering with registration data, mishandling of absentee ballots, misinformation and intimidation, or a wide range of other problems.
Blackwell's certified statewide returns now give Bush a margin of 118,775 votes.

But Blackwell's recount only counted about three percent of the ballots. The net gain he certifies for Kerry, if it held and all ballots were recounted, would put Kerry another nearly 10,000 votes closer to Bush. But a full and fair recount would probably gain Kerry far more.

That same Thursday the Green and Libertarian candidates submitted a request to a federal court to force a second recount of the Ohio vote, alleging county election boards altered votes and didn't follow proper procedures, reported the Associated Press December 30. During the recount, negligent and improper procedure had prompted Cobb to ask the Ohio court system to oversee the recount.

Stuart Comstock-Gay, executive director of the National Voting Rights Institute, wrote about some of the problems:


With the recount underway, we learn that counties are handling the process in different ways, depending on the whims of county officials. Every county was instructed by the Secretary of State to do a recount of 3 percent of the votes, followed by a hand recount of every vote if there any discrepancy appears. Some counties, however, have said they would do their recounts by machine only, and not by hand. <...> Some counties have kept observers—whether from the Green Party, Libertarian Party, DNC or Republican Party—out of the counting rooms entirely.
A full, fairly done hand recount that also included rejected votes might give Kerry the lead. But voter suppression is an even larger problem.

Extremely long lines at the polls in poor areas was reported by establishment media on and soon after November 2, including by the Associate Press that day and News 5 of Cleveland and Akron on November 4. Bob Fitrakis reported later that this was a result of providing heavily Democratic areas with fewer voting machines than could be predicted as necessary given past turnout and new registration. A December 13 article by Bob Fitrakis, Steve Rosenfeld and Harvey Wasserman on testimony given to the Democratic members of the U.S. House Judiciary Committee details some of the tactics to suppress the Democratic vote.

Without getting into the circumstantial evidence for vote fraud, beginning with the exit polls indicating a clear Kerry victory and including heavily Republican precincts certified with more than one hundred percent of registered voters turning out, the uncounted ballots and widespread, successful voter suppression suggest that the majority of eligible Ohioans who went to vote on November 2 chose certified second place candidate Democrat John F. Kerry for president. Not all of their votes were counted. Not all of them got a chance to vote. Many are black.

[naryaquid]

50. ...Agreed...and for reasons I can't fathom, intelligence is now

considered a drawback in one who runs for the most powerful office in the nation...Is it any wonder why the rest of the world thinks we're idiots?!

[naryaquid]

30. ....Seems clear that you don't like Kerry...o.k....He wasn't my

first choice, either, and he DID make some important mistakes...HOWEVER...It sounds to me like you might be believing the Repugs own P.R.
I was always annoyed with this "effete" thing...I see nothing "effete" in a decorated combat veteran, especially next to a Daddy's boy Draft dodger/ former cheerleader in college!
..What's with the "effete"?...They're NOTHING effeminate about John Kerry, unless it's now considered "effete" to speak in full sentences that sound intelligent

...As for the windsufing...WTF?...Windsurfing is no big "elite" sport..It's offered at most "moderate" coastal resorts and has been for years...You'd think he was playing Polo, or something..I found it laughable when Cheney smirked about "the people of Iowa don't windsurf"...Well no shit, Dick...Iowa doesn't HAVE a SURF!

...I frankly don't think Kerry was too "effete" "elite", or anything of the kind..
If we now prefer inarticulate low-brows for presidents, I'd say that's a comment on the electorate...or the Repugs who manipulate them....Please don't forget that as far as "elite" goes..you had NO more "patrician" president than FDR...and the working people LOVED him...He's now considered, even by Repugs, as the greatest president of the 20th Century

P.S..and not only "patrician"..but liberal as hell!

[Walt Starr]

43. I disliked KErry

until he made a speach at the conventino that fell by the wayside almost immediately. He messed up continually and ever y last issue that he was vulnerable on became an achilles heel.

He was the wrong man at the wrong time.

[naryaquid]

44. ...He did mess up, but that "elite, effete" thing is lame....

[Walt Starr]

46. The "elite" thing was perception

and Kerry simply reinforced the perception. Even his attempt to go against the grain of the perception came off as elitist.

I am, of course, referring to the wild goose chase in Ohio.

[naryaquid]

53. ...I'm sorry...I don't think he can be held liable for "reinforcing" the

perception...As many have pointed out here, "windsurfing" just isn't considered elitist by a lot of middle class (NOT rich)people...Maybe the problem is there's so very FEW truly "middle class" people anymore...The stagnation of wages over the last twenty years has really driven a lot of people down....Someone mentioned, for instance, that someone on minimum wage - or even twice that amount (about $10.30 per hour) couldn't afford to ski/windsurf...That's true, because you know what?...Ten-thirty an hour isn't a MIDDLE CLASS wage in this country right now....The Rethugs and their minions have been driving DOWN the middle class...Hell, people used to be able to work in blue collar factory jobs and make middle class wages....What we've quite nearly arrived at is a two-tier society - Rich (or Professional, Upper Middle class)...and low paid, non-unionized service workers....It's NOT the America I grew up in in the Sixties and Seventies..

[Walt Starr]

59. It is where I come from

and it is to most people I know in Ohio.

Go figure.

:shrug:

[naryaquid]

62. ...Excuse me, but WHAT "is" ??

[Walt Starr]

69. Windsurfing is considered elitist

:eyes:

[naryaquid]

71. ...Yeah, well...maybe you need to get out of Ohio more!

[In Truth We Trust]

70. Riddle me this Walt: Just who the hell did you support in the primaries?

I'm just a little curious. I preferred Kucinich after deciding to be pragmatic and not supporting Ralphie boy. Once JFK was our man I was full steam ahead on board with him and was very impressed with his ability to articulate and contrast vs monkey boy. Perhaps he wasn't liberal enough for me but he certainly, certainly was the better campaigner than chimpster.

BTW, what do you think of shrubbie's arrogance of requiring an "invitation" to his campaign appearances? Seems to me that in itself demonstrates foreknowledge of fraWd since this was supposedly a neck and neck race.

[The Gigmeister]

31. Thank you Walt Starr!!

Good God! At some point, we've got to stop blaming the Boogie Man. Personally, I would like to win in 2006 and 2008. Seems many others wouldn't like to. They just want to curl-up and die becasue there is no hope. (The Boogie Man CAN'T be beat!!)

Pathetic!

[garybeck]

32. we're not blaming the boggie man

if you want to win 06 and 08, you better fix the problems with the election NOW or forget it.

[The Gigmeister]

40. See...Right there it is...THE BOOGIE MAN!!

Oh, we're DOOMED! The Boogie Man CAN'T be beat!! WHY EVEN TRY???

FUCK THAT!!!!!!

Elections have been flawed since the beginning of time...This one was no different. Walt Starr, myself and others are exactly right!! The pukes are now running around trying to claim they've found dead Democratic voters and the election should be voided.

FUCK THAT!!!!!!


But at least with them, I don't see them preaching doom and gloom trying to claim we Democrats have everything rigged and "we should just forget it in 2006 and 2008".

[RaleighNCDUer]

49. They're trying to deflect attention from massive repub fraud by

pointing to a very little dem fraud, saying "everybody does it, no big deal".

Everybody doesn't do it, and the odds of the known 'glitches' being 90%+ in favor of the repubs are astronomical. And that is just the known 'glitches'.

As Stalin said, it's not who votes, but who counts the votes. The bogeyman can be beaten, but not by just conducting business as usual. If you're playing against a stacked deck, sometimes the best thing to do is kick over the table.

[naryaquid]

55. You Go, Dude!!

[PATRICK]

45. I don't agree with the numbers

but your sentiments about the campaign are thus in a way- too kind. Because if Kerry won and had no plan or ability to fight even for that, then that is the biggest let down of all and cascades all the way down the line concerning all those points you made, putting a bad housekeeper's seal of disapproval on all the nuanced caution and intelligence that sacrificed so much for so little.

Worse, I don't really see with my poor eyesight, who could have done better. If you can come up with some dark horse who did not falter in the running I would like to know who. If we could have mobilized behind an invulnerable Dean the establishment could have been defeated. Dean was the populist hope and the media war against him was extremely effective as he himself was just too new to the national game.

By the way, parroting the media memes against ANY candidate as justified is not a very credible way of critiquing our candidates as they ALL receive that special treatment. Even the Second Coming of Christ would not be spotless under that perspective. It was Kerry becoming woodenly the DNC establishment candidate(way beyond being a unifier) and taking on too much dead weight bad advice that was a contributing factor. The deeper factor is that he never successfully or conceptually came to grips with the opposition and played by rules that simply do not exist. People are now dying for his particular failure, since he truly HAD the potential to take the election by storm. (Maybe not the personal potential but the methodological potential was there).

Let's not leave the so-called pros who are supposed to do some of that thinking and planning free of consequences. What candidate would not flounder under their buffoonish incompetence ill matched for the times?

Obviously old scores against Kerry are arising again. I backed Edwards, another establishment offering possibly, but he showed amazing lack of applying criminal law experience to the situation. Still, despite his faltering and limits he MIGHT have done better. So that the election would have stolen in Hawaii? If you know better candidates let's get them up there. We need many to choose from or I fear I could almost write the slate of new losers for 2008.

The weary game will begin with Kerry trying to hammer himself into frontrunner status, depending on the success of his bewildering task in leading party opposition beyond C-Span. Hillary of course with Schumer nipping tentatively at her heels. Obama perhaps if he really solidifies with the populists and doesn't get mired in the thick crowd of DNC/DLC favorites. Edwards, if he learns, and does not play it smart for the second post position all the time. Dean, the man that makes the party clique gnash its dentures. And a sorry array of Lieberman/Vilsack types trying to win the "Bush vote"(choke).

With predictability like that as a static target to the fraud controllers and media darlings it doesn't look good. When in France I saw a charming, competent, idealistic party bewteen the Gaullists and the Left. Looked better, more rational and winning than the old warhorses and stooges of the left and right. Roadkill, worse than the faithfully principled third party in Canada, the NDP.

So the Dems are afraid of being the NDP and getting marginalized by the left, but I see them as clear roadkill somewhere in the middle of restricted appeal like the "Democrats" of France.

[iconoclastNYC]

52. And it had nothing to do with anything that went in Ohio or Florida, NO

Why is it that it is fine for Republicans to abuse the board of elections to throw up every impediment to voting? Why is OK for Blackwell to break federal and state election laws and then refuse to testify about the matters?

What will draw attention to this issue except a historic contest on the 6th of January?

I seriously doubt you've read much about what went down in Ohio. Their tactics are disgusting and it could have made the difference there, 120,000 votes is not a lot in a state as populous as Ohio.

It just disgusts me when Liberals parrot the RNC supplied, corporate media distributed talking points just so they feel smart and ignore the facts b/c the media has made knowing or repeating the facts an act of a loony lefty. This country is screwed. The left has been completely marginalized. The only 'acceptable' opposition to the Right is now centrist democrats. Republican lite.

[Peace Patriot]

72. You know Kerry lost?

How? Cuz Kenneth Blackwell tells you so? AP? CNN?

Don't want hear more mere opinions of Kerry policies and candidates. Want to see you quote some numbers, and where you got them, and how you defend them. Were they from BushCon central electronic vote tabulators with secret source code? How do you verify them in that case? Did you go to any registrars and count numbers in, say, poll signature books? In Ohio?

This is just all very vague what you're saying. Nothing to back it up. "I know Kerry lost. He lost because..."?

Does "he lost because..." prove that he lost?

Frankly, I don't know for certain that he won--and can't know until we have a transparent election. This election was extraordinarily NON-transparent. Looking at all the OTHER evidence, it seems highly likely that Kerry won, possibly by a landslide (if you count all the uncounted votes and all the partisan Republican Secretaries of State repressed votes in black and poor areas).

Describe how our votes are counted. Can you name the formulas in the source code that runs the machines? Every schoolchild should know this. And who manufactures the machines and owns that code as secret proprietary information?

And what's your opinion of THAT--since you're so full of opinions?

[intheflow]

6. People without souls don't need sleep.

Their whole lives are dedicated to inflicting nightmares upon others, however. :shrug:

[Joe Chi Minh]

35. You got it, intheflow!

[O.M.B.inOhio]

39. Cheney and Rumsfeld do need sleep....

They return to their coffins, with soil from their original burial site. Then at night they rise to suck the vitality our of our democracy.

[intheflow]

42. Ha! Great minds think alike...

See my post on this thread, earlier this morning: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=2901999&mesg_id=2902034

[zann725]

9. Thank you, Truth is All! Kerry DID Win...but I'm not sleeping well

because we have NOT yet won the battle to legitimize that victory. And the injustice of that, and the UNdemocratic nature of that, no doubt keeps many of us awake as a matter of (good) conscience.

Though I DO believe we shall prevail!

[Orsino]

25. Not sleeping well here, either...

n/t

[YNGW]

13. Nope

This forum has been full of those who want to believe something fishy was up, and I will admit it was fun to read all the delirious theories, but Kerry got beat.

What I've seen happen are those who realize this reality and are moving on, and those who either can't or won't accept it and will continue to, for the next four years, say the election was stolen, which will further advance the marginalization of themselves within the party and as a whole. Thankfully, they are a very small minority.

Personally, I'm more interested in who will be the DNC chair. I have a feeling that the party is going to find it necessary to brush away some who have allowed their pet interests to cloud the overall picture the party needs to paint.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[YNGW]

36. Already seen them all.

I love this "educate yourself" speech the members here use on each other all to often.

"If you don't agree with me, it's because you haven't opened your mind and educated yourself."

Uh-huh. If I don't agree, then it's me who doesn't get it. Yeah, that'll work.

Conyers won't get any Senator to stand with him and the election was not a sham. Kerry got beat. You'll find out Thursday. I already know today.

I fully appreciate yours and several others situation. On the one hand, for the next few years we liberals are extremely limited in what we can do to affect policy. Place on top of that the Dem party leaders are definitely not going to pay attention to those who live on the, shall we say, "outer realms of reality", and it's a double-whammy.

That's why the DNC chair selection interests me. The party wants to keep the votes of those who are "out there" (so to speak), but at the same time they have to find a way to tone down their voices and prevent them from painting the whole party as being less than desirable. Can they do it, or will they have to discreetly let these people know they have their walking papers and good-bye? Time will tell.

[roenyc]

27. you really beleive this was a fair election?

without fraud? then why all the blackwell secrecy? why all the hiding? why all the stelth vote counting. Ohio just likes privacy?

[goodboy]

15. and if you can manage a quote from the 'burbs in your posts, you're a

freakin' genius.

[WritersBlock]

20. I have no doubt whatsoever that Kerry won.

If there hadn't been so many roadblocks put up against a realistic recount in Ohio, I might have entertained the notion that over half of the people across the country stood in line, some for hours, to vote an unpopular incumbent back into office.

If the republicans had said, "Of course; sure, count the votes because we are confident that our candidate won in a fair fashion," then yeah, okay, I may have believed them.

Unfortunately, that didn't happen. Blackwell et al stood in the way at every opportunity.

Actions speak louder than words. Their actions scream to the highest hills that they knew they couldn't afford for the votes to be counted.

[dave123williams]

24. They'll sleep fine; this is due to a total lack on conscience.

[sabra]

26. Who knows?

Only time will tell...

[The Gigmeister]

28. What I'm about to day DOES have a 99.95% probability of being true...

Kerry lost a very close race. A race we shouldn't have even been in, but we made it close through activism.

If we continue to blame some invisible Boogie Man (The Boogie Man NEVER dies and can NEVER be beaten), we won't be able to prepare ourselves for a win in 2006 and 2008.

[garybeck]

34. no, you are wrong

you just made up you 99.9% statistic and you obviously haven't looked at the facts.

it's not the boogie man we're blaming. it's irrefutable evidence of fraud and voter disenfranchisement.

[The Gigmeister]

41. I didn't make up the 99.95% statistic.

I may have borrowed it from someone who, before the election, was trying to peddle the ludicrus idea that a Kerry electoral win was 99.95% sure, when the rest of the world knew it was a 50-50 ballgame, but I didn't make it up.

[Pacifist Patriot]

74. I've never had a problem multi-tasking.

I can fight election fraud and prepare for a tough campaign in 2006 and 2008 at the same time.

[Broken Acorn]

37. TIA, you are correct but...

Do we know that they are probably laughing their asses off at us right now?

Pulling the biggest heist in our country next to the JFK thing just makes them even bolder in hijacking our country.

[dalloway]

38. because they know that we know that they know ....

they just decided to reverse the DeLay leadership rules that they've been blasted for. Guess they wanted to limit the blatant evidence of their moral collapse in light of upcoming evidence of another moral collapse. Gives me hopes that any ethical Rethugs may actual stand up on Thursday. Wouldn't that be grand?

[seito]

47. After scanning through all these replies

I feel all icky, like I took a trip across the dark side. :puke:

Why is that I wonder? :hi:

[ChiciB1]

90. I'm WITH YOU!!

Why don't we just knock more people around like this. It's just sooooooooo much fun and hits all the HIGH Spots!!

[ginnyinWI]

56. I want the public to know what we know, too n/t

[StephanieMarie]

57. I KNOW Gore and Kerry won! n/t

[Not a Sheep]

58. This whole "we know" and "they know" stuff......

.... makes no sense. Writing a little faux-poem stating something as fact doesn't make it so. It's not that simple.

We have no smoking gun and we can't prove anything no matter how much we wish that we could.

So no matter how many times someone screams "Kerry won", unfortunately he did not actually win. If he won, he would be inaugurated on the 20th and at this point that isn't going to happen.

I would love to see something change those facts but at this point, it doesn't look good.

[RaleighNCDUer]

81. There are plenty of smoking guns --

It's just that the people who should be examining them are closing their eyes and sticking their fingers in their ears and saying over and over "It's just a banana, it's just a banana..."

No investigation ever begins with a smoking gun. It begins with something that looks wrong. Trying to find out why it looks wrong, you find coincidences that stretch the limits of credulity. Then you look for motive and means. Then you start coming up with names and start finding those memos, those connections.

Finally, voila, the smoking gun.

A voting machine program starts with -16,000 dem votes. A glitch? How did it happen? Who programmed it? Was it only discovered because it was -16,000 instead of -1,600? What other machines did that programmer work on? Have those machines been checked?

You see where I'm going with this. My question is, who is asking the questions? And if they are not being asked, why not?

Because there is no smoking gun.

Right.

[Not a Sheep]

91. I agree NCevilDUer........

that there needs to be investigations and too many people aren't even paying attention and considering what we do know (MSM, etc).

And you're right, "No investigation ever begins with a smoking gun." I wish we had one and hope that we will get one but the truth is we do not have one at this point and can not "prove" fraud no matter how many times someone here screams "Kerry won" or certain evidence is a "smoking gun".

It seems that are two types of DUers who constantly argue on this forum. Some believe there was no fraud and others claim things such as we know Kerry won and we know there was fraud. I fall somehwere in between. From what I've read, I believe there is evidence that strongly points to wrongdoing and tampering. And like you say, I wish the MSM would investigate and educate the public concerning what has happened so far. I do not believe however that anyone can claim they know Kerry won or they know here was fraud. I think what they should be saying is that they beleive their was fraud because the bottom line is we have no smoking gun and can not prove anything.

[demo dutch]

60. I think they're waiting for Bush to "dig his own grave" which

is inevitable. He'll sow his own destructio, it's just a matter of time. History will not be kind to him. And then there is the anticipation whether the Tecumseh curse will takes it's toll like it has done since 1840. (with the exception of Reagon, but there was an attemp on his life and he lost his mind)

[In Truth We Trust]

64. Truth I couldn't have said it better myself. However I will say that their

fraWd has effected my ability to sleep peacefully. I hate being pissed on and told it's just raining out.

[Eloriel]

65. Yes, they can sleep just fine

Probably after hatching even more plans to get away with murder, election theft, and whatever else they have in mind.

They can sleep because they either HAVE no conscience, or they think that what they're doing is the Right Thing to do for their country and the world.

Both attitudes/beliefs are pathological.

[mousie]

66. I KNOW Kerry won!

and I know there was election theft. I get laughed at frequently for this, but I've always said (even without all the evidence that his since come forward) that I felt this in my GUT. I think a lot of us do, and that alone to me means something. So many of us across America have this same gut feeling... I think we should trust our instincts on this, as well as the fact that there is now too much evidence to be coincidence anymore or to be ignored!

[Raksha]

82. What I wonder about...

...are all the Kerry voters out there who also have that gut feeling, who maybe aren't sleeping too well either or who feel a depression they can't seem to shake or explain. I'm referring to those who don't know about DU, are too tired and stressed out to think about politics or maybe don't even have computers, but who just KNOW in their guts there was something badly wrong with this election. I would love to see their deepest intuitions validated and given expression, and that's one of the main reasons I'm looking forward to whatever happens on Thursday.

Of course they're going to be pissed off as all hell when they do find out...but that's a GOOD thing!

[mousie]

83. good point... you are so right!

I remember the night of the elections, and staying up past bedtime, and occasionally waking up and looking at the TV again and still Ohio was hung up and not right... I was still waiting for Kerry to take charge of the numbers again, but no.... that gut feeling was something's going wrong alright. I was afraid before the election that Bush would pull something. The next morning I was just stunned, and felt like... WHY isn't anybody saying anything or doing something about this? Can't they see something ain't right here? Nobody on the MSM's were saying anything was strange at all... I was hoping Kerry was going to fight this, that surely HE knew something was very fishy!! Oh yeah, I can imagine the numbers of people out there who just don't even know all this is going on! What will we ever do about the MSM problem?!

[Pacifist Patriot]

73. While organizing my closet the other day I ran across my campaign t-shirt

and noticed that I can still wear it. It doesn't say "John Kerry FOR President" it says simply "John Kerry President" I find that deliciously obnoxious.

[Shalom]

84. We Can't Sleep While They Are Screwing Us !!

[rumpel]

87. there is a Japanese saying...the more bad a person the better he sleeps

but I say: karma will catch up!

[ChiciB1]

89. Karma Is The Word I Keep

muttering over and over and over and over! Now, I want it to work!

I still think Kerry won, don't have much doubt about it myself, and can't jump in with all the fellow Dems who said he lost because he ran a bad campaign. Florida is rife with corruption when it comes to voting and I'm getting very DUBIOUS about Bill Nelson too!

I've written him several times, the last response I got was that he thanked me for my interest in the election and that he wanted to reassure me that the GAO was looking into it!!!!

Gee Whizzzzzzz!

[mordarlar]

93. Hopefully i will be sleeping better soon. : )