Senate debate on Gonzales DAY THREE on C-Span2 NOW

[Peace Patriot]

Third day of debate on Alberto Gonzales for Attorney General. EIGHT HOURS of debate today, starting NOW. First half hour is BushCons. Then alternating half hours (Dem /BushCon)

There have been some GREAT SPEECHES on Tues/Wed—Ted Kennedy and Robert Byrd most notably (also Barbara Mikulski and Jack Reed). Gonzales is the architect of the Bush's torture policy, breaking US laws and treaties, rewriting US laws in secret, and, as Robert Byrd said, turning the President into a King. Torture is probably the most immoral and amoral of BushCon policies, although it's hard to choose (slaughtering 100,000+ innocent Iraqis and looting Social Security—the meager pensions of millions of the elderly poor—are rivals for top prize).

There is still an outside possibility of a filibuster. The Democratic vote against will be quite significant. Even Diane Feinstein has spoken against it—and all 8 Democrats on the Judiciary Committee voted against (all 10 BushCons for). Barbara Boxer has yet to speak on it. Nor has Joseph Biden and several other members of the Judiciary Committee.

TALKING POINTS:

--63% of Americans oppose torture under any circumstances (recent ABC poll)

--57% of Americans oppose the Iraq war

--Bush's approval rating has sunk as low as 43% (Rasmussen poll)

--Further evidence that he was not elected! Arrogance, hubris, defiance of public opinion - Democrats are representing majority opinion!

--How did torture and mass murder and blatant lying become America's new "moral values"?

--Senators have stressed Gonzales' near complete lack of candor in committee on torture policy development


CALL YOUR SENATORS. GO HERE for Senate contact info. talking points, etc.:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=312962#313712

GO HERE for reports and discussion on Wednesday's debate:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x313750

GO HERE for reports and discussion on Tuesday's debate:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=312298

and additional info and talking points

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x306206

[fooj]

1. Good Morning! What's happening?

[Peace Patriot]

2. Hi, fooj! BushCons Allard and Santorum have been speaking.

Santorum on now. Dems coming up in about 20 mins., I believe. We'll find out who's speaking then, and what speaker order is.

Santorum speech just ended. They seem to be doing a quorum call right now. Democrats coming up.

[fooj]

3. OMG! I am getting so tired of hearing the same thing over and over

and over and over from those ethically challenged repubs! They've got nerve! They shouldn't be allowed to stand on the senate floor and perpetually lie to the American people! Who calls them on their BS? McConnell makes me want to hurl! Hell, Santorum has problems of his own-shut up and sit down!

[Peace Patriot]

4. Christopher Dodd (D-CT) - against! DODD IS GIVING A GREAT SPEECH!

--Dodd former Peace Corps in Latin America, speaks Span.
--but it's a disservice to Latinos to use Latino ethnic pride to support Gonzales
--he hopes his vote will influence how G. behaves in office (though he says it's inevitable he will be confirmed(
--Dodd has opposed only a handful of many 100's of various Prez nominations

--needs to judge nominations on 2 criteria

1. Is the nominee qualified?
2. Will the nominee enforce the Constitution and uphold its values

Gonzales is qualified. But Gonzales has regretably and disturbingly shown no understanding of the basic and fundamental standards of our laws, in being the chief architect of the torture policy.

THIS IS A GREAT SPEECH! I'M SO SURPRISED! DIDN'T EXPECT IT. More detail in a moment...

[floridadem30]

6. since when does integrity and character take a back seat to qualifications

of a nominee? they should be equal. I want an honorable attorney general with ethics, integrity, and qualifications. Where is the accountability in this administration? This is just my opinion, I am not lashing out at you, just the obvious things left out of the criteria.

[fooj]

17. I share your belief, fd30! It makes me crazy!

[Peace Patriot]

7. Dodd was breathtaking! His father was the chief trial lawyer at...

Nuremberg! Didn't know that. I took notes. Report in a few minutes. OBAMA is on now. Looks like Obama's voting no.

[SaveAmerica]

10. Thanks so much for your re-caps, I'm listening not able to catch all

the details you're providing, just wanted to let you know your efforts are appreciated.

[Jo March]

5. Kick! We need to get rid of this monster

kick

[SaveAmerica]

11. Hey Arnheim, how are things? n/t

[Jo March]

14. SaveAmerica! I am doing okay

Nicolas has been sick lately. He's had the flu. I'm still out of work. :( Had mid-terms last week. Am tired.

How are YOU?

[SaveAmerica]

19. Yikes, the flu!! I hope he's OK soon and you get rested. I'm OK

tried to cut back on DU, but I'm hooked.

[fooj]

8. Well, I'll be damned! Dodd hit a grand slam! I loved it!

"I want this put on the record..." YES! Now Obama is going after the slimebag! "Imagine that"! Wow! "Legalisms and semantics"...he's on fire! Good going, Obama!

[fooj]

9. That was a great reference to Ford's AG!

[Peace Patriot]

12. The Pod People (no independent thought) now have a half hour.

Go get your latte. Grab a snack. Do a bit of stretching. Go the bathroom. And come back here in about 20 mins. for the people who still have their own brain cells.

[fooj]

16. or check out CSPAN--Byrd going after Wolfowitz!

[mirrera]

130. peace Patriot I thank you also...

I am late to the feast...trying to get back in my studio and make a living! I find your thread to catch up and I am grateful. Thank You!

[SaveAmerica]

13. I love how they keep mentioning how many questions Reno got in

comparison to Gonzales. There's no comparison at all. They either have blinders on, have the same people as Bush feeding them info, are stupid, are very good liars or all of the above.

[fooj]

15. Byrd is on Cspan questioning Wolfowitz! He's frying him up!

[Peace Patriot]

135. Boy, am I sorry I missed Byrd roasting Wolfowitz! I'll see if I can find

...the archive on C-Span. Thanks for alerting me!

[Peace Patriot]

18. DODD...

Dodd's delivery--clear, firm, resounding!, well thought out, deeply felt...

On the matter of understanding our most basic rule of law, Gonzales memo (the "Bybee memo") permitted the Prez to break the law and authorized subordinates to break the law.

Laws against torture:

8th amend. to the Constit. no cruel and unusual punishment
Geneva Convention: no torture or inhumane treatment
Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 5: no torture
International Convention Against Torture—endorsed by Reagan, Bush I and Congress says no torture and "NO exceptions under any circumstances"
& Army Field Manual, based on decades of hard experience on the battlefield

Gonz. memo is DIRECT CONFLICT with these laws, and Gonz. helped shape the torture policy and was its chief architect

and direct violation of Gen. Conv. by exempting Afghanistan from torture laws

Gonz. memo defines torture so narrowly that it would EXEMPT SADDAM HUSSEIN from prosecution; it says Exec. branch officials can escape any consequence

STUNNNG IMPLICATION: US officials can commit heinous acts of torture and say they are "just following orders" (of the Prez)

Harold Coe (sp?), Yale, said it's the most erroneous legal opinion ever written, and a stain on American values

--Gonz. memo violates our committtment to rule of law and commitment to equal justice; it says Prez is above the law!

Dodd's father was Executive Trial Counsel at Nuremberg, trying criminals who had killed 6 million Jews and 5 million others. Churchill wanted summary executions of all of them. But the US INSISTED on THE RULE OF LAW, not the rule of the mob. US must not tailor its principles to who its adversaries are.

--"just following orders" is a cowardly excuse for war crimes, and was repudiated at Nuremberg

--how our nation treats its prisoners and enemies is about who we are, not who they are

--Abe Lincoln: if we don't free the slaves we lose "the last best hope on earth" (democracy)

--in 24 years in the Senate, he's only opposed a handful of Prez nominations, but he must oppose this one!

----

Dodd was followed by B. Obama (also a good speech--notes in a minute).

Meanwhile, Geo. Allen (R-VA) said nothing, and John Warner (R-VA) talking about Reagan and horseback riding, and how Reagan knew all the details of some Civil War battle.

Norm Coleman (R-Minn - benefited from Paul Wellstone's assassination) is now talking about THE ELECTION and how we shouldn't be rehashing THE ELECTION. Bush won. Democrats should shut up.

Schumer speaking now. AG, unlike other Cabinet positions, must have first loyalty to the Constitution and the law, not to the Prez. Not a typical Cab. position. AG must sometimes oppose the Prez.

[fooj]

21. Thanks for these recaps...they are GREAT! Did you see

the post I left for you at the end of Session 2? When you have a moment, please read!

[Peace Patriot]

134. Hi, fooj! I just caught up with your question. Feel free to use the...

...Queen of Hearts thing. It just kinda dropped into my head while I was busily typing the report, that that's where we find ourselves--in "Wonderland." I used to teach English, too. Good on you! My thing was, creativity first, like the original human beings who created language, and like Shakespeare who spelled his own name six different ways (to hell with spelling, BRING THE LANGUAGE ALIVE AGAIN!), BUT...but...but, there are certain joys in a highly disciplined use of language that do not exclude, and even tend to invite, an inspiration like "the Queen of Hearts" metaphor dropping in for a big surprise.

[fooj]

20. There certainly is alot of emphasis placed on LOYALTY to the people

not the PRESIDENT! I have a question...how can these guys call Gonzales a "good person"? Someone who condones torture is a good person? Give me a break!!! Has anyone brought up the fact that Shrub has appointed this jerk 5 times...this is his 6th! Why would he buck the boy who supplies the bucks? We know he has no integrity...

[fooj]

22. Check out that big blue sign! ENRON FRAUD! She's nailing him!

Woo hoo! Cook the book... Yikes!

[Peace Patriot]

23. GONZALES REPRESENTED ENRON!!! My God, I didn't know that!

Maria Cantwell (D-WA) says Gonzales refused to say he would recuse himself from the Enron investigation. Huge bright blue sign right behind her: "ENRON FRAUD."

--he will not be independent!

--boy, she did indeed nail him! Wow!

----

Jeff Bingaman (D-NM) on now...

Bingaman is dealing with the Guantanamo Bay detainees--indefinite detention with no hearings--and also Prez power to detain Amer. citiz's indefinitely--and BushCons' unConstitutional positions on these matters. Most in Guantanamo INNOCENT and have NO INTEL KNOWLEDGE. Guantanamo detainees being TORTURED. No indication that Gonzales disagrees, and he SAID he has no disagreement with it. Is quoting Nat'l Guard letter, one of 12 generals and admirals, opposing Gonzales.

[fooj]

25. I did!

:cry: :cry: :cry: Just one more reason to fear the bastard!

[fooj]

24. Finally! Someone brings up the energy fraud on the West Coast!

Those bastards shut us down on purpose! I'm a native Californian and let me tell you- those rolling blackouts were completely unnecessary! Those tapes released a while ago made my blood boil! I KNEW THEY HAD SOMETHING TO DO WITH IT! These guys have the ability to plot and plan and execute...it's disheartening! What are we going to do? Sometimes it just takes your breath away!

[Peace Patriot]

26. Tim Johnson (D-SD) just spoke, has son in the Army...

...and expressed special concern about the environment of permissiveness toward torture that Gonzales has created, putting US troops at more risk. Gonzales opposed by the US Army Legal Corps and the US State Dept.

Gonzales had ample opportunity to reject the overly narrow definition of torture (in the Gonz/Bybee memo) and the vast expansion of Prez authority to overrule laws on torture and to authorize subordinates to torture detainees, and he did not disavow these.

Gonz. disregarded the Convention Against Torture in saying Afghanistan exempt from it, and advocated indefinite detention of both foreigners and Americans. And it was only after court battles that some of these policies were changed.

Gonz. also gave Gov Bush in TX inadequate info in 57 memos re: clemency for inmates, failing to state facts about inmates' legal representation and mental status.

Johnson put in the record NYT and WaPo editorials against Gonz, saying is appointment was "counter" to US values.

Johnson: Gonz. unqualified to represent the American justice system.

-----

Nutcase Orrin Hatchet Man speaking now. The Sane People will be back on in a few minutes. (They're doing half hour segments on each side.)

[Peace Patriot]

27. Someone yesterday in this forum expressed anger that Pod People...

...never answer the facts presented by Dems. For instance, Johnson just stated that the Army Legal Corps OPPOSES Gonzales. NO BushCon will address that! Why would ARMY LEGAL CORPS oppose the Prez's nominee???

Another point raised by many Dems--esp. Robert Byrd. This secret Gonz/Bybee memo has been in force for TWO AND A HALF YEARS, and wasn't withdrawn or repudiated until it was EXPOSED, only recently. They never answer this!

[Peace Patriot]

28. Off the cliff of fascism...down, down...

There should be no debate. There should be no argument. There should have been no Judic Committee hearings. This man should never have been nominated, and should have been fired as WH counsel long ago.

How is it that we are DEBATING the wholesale violation of our laws and international agreements? How can we be DEBATING the president's "authority," devised in secret, to override and violate ANY of our laws? How can a man who has done this EVEN BE CONTEMPLATED as head of domestic law enforcement?

It is mind-boggling that we are even HAVING this debate!

The BushCons have pushed us so far to the right--and the Democrats have LET THEM push us so far to the right--that we are now hanging right over edge of the cliff of fascism...

...and, by means of Stolen Election II, are about to see a man who has spent his whole career toadying to the Bush Cartel, and who capped all that by re-writing the Constitution IN SECRET to give Bush the powers of a MONARCH, as Attorney General of the US.

WHY aren't the Democrats FILIBUSTERING this nomination--using one of the few powers they have left to stop this outrageous appointment?

[Catamount]

39. Apparently they do not have the 41 votes against him, but

Apart from Salazar, all the dems I heard are opposed!
Do you know who the "for G" are?

[fooj]

30. It's maddening!

[Peace Patriot]

33. Meanwhile, Charles Schumer (D-NY) spoke and said that, despite...

...rrespect and affection for Gonzales, he was "turned around" on this nomination by Gonzales' lack of answers on fundamental questions, one of the most important being AG's independence from the Prez. Schumer said that "even a cursory review of G's answers" on this matter (and he'd read over his answers many times) revealed that Gonz. had "not a scintilla of evidence of independence" from Bush. Schumer said he's taken crap from the Left for saying that, given 9/11 etc., we should have open debate on torture issues--for instance, what if terrorists were about to unleash a nuke in a US city, and detainee was believed to have info. on it? would torture be permitted?. HOWEVER, the big difference between him and Gonz. is that he wants this to be an OPEN DEBATE. He said Dept. Justice secrecy and "behind closed doors" doings has gotten them into a lot of toruble (mentions TIPS). Very regretful he has to opposed Gonz.

[fooj]

29. Didn't this jackass (Hatch) spew his BS yesterday?

[mirrera]

131. It was the same speach! I actually checked to see if it was live...

I thought I had clicked the wrong link and was watching some archive. The same speach...made me furious TWICE!!!

[flyarm]

31. how many times has orrin hatch b.s.'ed??

i swear i was watching both the hearing with wolfowitz and the gonzalez hearing..and i turned to listen to senator byrd and turned back to the gonzalez hearing and orrin hatch is still talking...wow this guy makes me puke..i just hate his guts..so what is he doing running out the clock?? how many times has this puke spoken now?? wow i just can't stand this liar!! what a puke....

sorry i know i am repeating but hatch makes me want to scream!!!!


fly:mad: :grr: :puke: :puke: :puke:

[Sydnie]

32. He's not even talking about the nomination anymore.

He should have yielded his time much sooner so that they could get on with the topic of discussion.

Just another smoke screen!

[flyarm]

34. sen carl levin ...voting against gonzalez!!

going after the torture stuff!!

military lawyers expressed reservations of legal policies of handling detainees..

such tactics would violate military practiced..gonzalez sided with civilian lawyers not military!!

go levin..can't type it fast enough sorry!!

fly

[fooj]

38. I was thinking the very same thing...

he's a blowhard jackass!

[Peace Patriot]

35. Carl Levin (R-Mich) speaking now, against Gonzales. Very strong speech.

...details in a moment. Gonzales created the climate that led to Abu Ghraib and widespread abuse of detainees. Conclusion: (paraphrase) Voting for Gonzales is voting for torture and the abuses of Abu

KENNEDY now speaking. He said something about reserving time just before the vote. (What's that about?) Gonz. memo A ROADMAP TO THE TORTURE AT ABU GHRAIB. Kennedy burning them to the ground! A second great speech on this! Kennedy is so hot on this! He's really into it! Go, Teddy!!!!


"WE AS A NATION HAVE LOST OUR WAY!!!"--Kennedy

[Sydnie]

36. Kennedy up now! n/t

[fooj]

37. Go Teddy Go!!!!

I am totally blown away!! After all this, how could anyone in their right mind support this evil maniac? It's beyond comprehension...

[Peace Patriot]

43. Oh, man! Kennedy is THE MAN! Kennedy RULES!

DO WE STAND FOR THE RULE OF LAW, OR DO WE STAND FOR TORTURE?

Our protection of detainees against torture means that we are more than just the sum of all our fears!

...recent national discussions of values, family values, religious values, social values, fundamental values...

...are these stated noble values real or are they nothing more than cover for ignoble acts?

--our fundamental value: we respect international law! if we do not, WHO WILL?

This vote will determine whether or not we are hypocrites on our most fundamental values!

TED KENNEDY WAS ON FIRE!!!!

---

Russ Feingold just spoke. Good speech.

More detail on these speeches in a moment.

I am very, very, very impressed with these speeches today. I thought they couldn't surpass the Kennedy and Byrd speeches of Tuesday. I was wrong.

[flyarm]

40. kennedy now!!! yeah kennedy!!

says gonzalez is behind bushes torture plan!!..g. helped mr biby to write torture guidelines. bibby memoranda gonz..agreed with conclusions ..bibby /gonzalez memoranda was guidleline to torture policy...g. was at epicenter of torture policy!
document for preordained result..
most clearly illegal document ever written ..said by legal someone at yale law school...

fbi emails tell truth..
too many reports of torture for it to be independant cases of torture,,.,

writing as fast as i can for those who cant see it live!!

thetorture happened on mr gonzalez watch..he was enabler..it happened in mr g's office..yet mr g. cant remember most of this..

sad day for senate..for responsibility of advise and consent ..

usrely admin can find someone who is respectful( ? ) of rule of law..

debated values..code words of political agenda...

respect for law obligation not opinion

we respect international law..

on this record only reason to vote for him is political..

do we stand for a rule of law or do we stand for torture...


sorry if i missed alot trying to get as much as i could!!

he was good!!!!!!!!!!

fly

[fooj]

41. I'm glad I'm staying informed but...My God-This makes me sick!

Watching this is enough to knock the living shit out of anyone! It's just unbelievable that this idiot, who is an obvious puppet for Shrub, has done all that he has and is still where he is! Shit! Attila the Hun would be a better choice...

[fooj]

42. OK- How can he be a good lawyer if he "does not respect the law"?

GEEEEZ!

[fooj]

44. These are not "points of view"- They are Facts!!!!!!!!! OMG!

[SaveAmerica]

45. I don't think the republican senators believe in themselves anymore

[Peace Patriot]

46. Craig Thomas (R) just said he thinks the debate will be concluded...

..shortly. I want to cry! NO! NO! NO!

...now he's talking about things repeated over and over and over, and "all these difficult things with memos 'n' this 'n' that..."

...'n' this 'n' that...

...'n' this 'n' that...!

[Sydnie]

51. the same committee members on this side of the aisle haven't

mentioned it at all. A bit of politics you say Thomas. Why yes, there is a bit of politics going on here -- from YOUR side of the aisle. The other side has legitimate concerns and left their rubber stamp in their other suit.

Seems to me that this AG would be the BIGGEST "activist judge" there ever could be. Making new torture laws would fall into that category wouldn't it?

Shut up and sit down Thomas. Yes, you have been here talking about it all week. So what? That's what the state of Wyoming sent you there to do. Earn your money and stop complaining about what the jpb requires!

Waaaaaa Waaaaaaaaa Waaaaaaaaa Thomas! You need a binky and a nap now or what?

[fooj]

52. Did you hear him refer to the memos and how no one on his

side of the isle even addressed them? I was stunned!

[Peace Patriot]

55. Craig (R-Wyo)...this bland attitude...

"...'N' this 'N' that..."

for burning people with cigarettes
for strapping people to boards and drowning them
for setting unmuzzled dogs on them
for stuffing baseballs into their mouths
for throwing a dying Iraqi's body on top of his sister

"...'N' this 'N' that..."

I just hate how he covered this over with that mindless blandness. The Pod People attitude.

[Sydnie]

47. Thank you Senator Feingold!

I'm a bit behind due to a phone call and paused tivo but I thought he did a great job!

[JoMama49]

49. Well, they stood up first against them during the Condilooza hearings,

they got stronger during the Gonzalez hearings, now, by the time we get to Social Security, they damn well better wield power, because by then, their new ones ought to be fully descended!!!

[Sydnie]

53. that's why they call them "stones" right?

Letterman asks "Sink or Float". Use 'em if you got 'em I say!

[fooj]

63. LMAO!

[Peace Patriot]

136. har, har (JoMama) n/t

[Peace Patriot]

48. I'm finding it very difficult not to HATE right now.

Thank God I saw the movie "Gandhi" just last night. I'm thinking about Gandhi now. Help us, Mahatma!

[fooj]

59. I know! It's incredible! J. Liebermann needs to be recalled!

Of all people condoning torture!! A Jewish Man! OMG! He is in someones back pocket for sure!

[SaveAmerica]

69. or front pocket, have you seen the pic of GW kissing him last night?

[mirrera]

132. ommmmmmm...n/t

[Helga Scow Stern]

50. Will they vote? The Sen. from WY said he hopes there's a vote...

almost like he was scared there wouldn't be...

[zann725]

54. Where is John Kerry on this? Did I miss his speech?

n/t

[Peace Patriot]

73. Kerry has not spoken in these three days of debate. He didn't...

...speak on Condoleeza Rice either, but joined with the HEROIC 13 to vote against her.

I think we're going to have a much bigger Dem vote today against Gonzales, and I can't imagine Kerry voting for.

[Sydnie]

56. Salazar better find his backbone and stand with his party n/t

[Peace Patriot]

57. Salazar (D-CO), a friend of Gonzales, who is voting for him, really...

...got burned by Orrin Hatch's accusation yesterday that Democrats against Gonzales were against him BECAUSE OF HIS RACE.

Nice company you keep, Salazar!!!

He just got up to speak to disavow this accusation....slavery...civil rights...the Civil Rights Act...divisiveness...blah...blah...

But he still intends to do the bidding of these horrendous BIGOTS, FASCISTS, LIARS, TORTURERS and MURDERERS!

A quorum call .

Lieberman speaking now. This ought to be interesting...

[flyarm]

58. i called salazars office 5 times yesterday

and told the secretary to tell salazar..his days are numbered in the senate and as a democrat..that i will work to see him kicked out of office..that his friendship does not stand above his nation and the values and principles of his nation..and that he is committing treason to his nation and the people of his nation!..they hung up on me , so i just kept calling back..then i read statements gonzalez has made about torture...i said as the wife and mother of hispanics..he is an insult to all hispanics!!

fly

[Peace Patriot]

60. If Lieberman had any chance left to redeem himself in the opinion of...

...the majority of Americans, he just blew it. Voting for.

[Peace Patriot]

68. None of the apologists for torture ever mention that MANY OF THE...

...PEOPLE who were "detained" in Afghanistan and in Iraq, and who are STILL "detained' in Guantanamo Bay WERE/ARE INNOCENT OF ANY CRIME. They were not only NOT "unlawful combatants," they were NOT combatants of any kind.

Gonzales, in secrecy, unlawfully, determined that neither "Al Qaeda" nor "the Taliban" were covered by the Geneva Convention or any of our laws that forbid torture UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. What about the people who were "DETAINED" who were not guilty, who were not Taliban, who were not Al Qaeda? HOW WAS THEIR GUILT DETERMINED?

------

Lieberman started out by saying he consulted the Bible, a quote "Justice, justice thou shalt seek." He asked a rabbi why "justice" was repeated. Answer: Because we must pursue justice in a just way."

And now he is twisting that to mean that it would be "unjust" to vote against Gonzales.

Figure THAT one out.

It's a lot like Gonzales' opinion that for the Prez to obey the laws against torture would be "unconstitutiional."

[fooj]

61. Of all the people to vote to confirm this jackass!!! A Jewish Man!

Leibermann needs to be recalled! I can't believe it! Who the hell got to him? With all the evidence re: torture? He makes me sick! He should be PUBLICLY disgraced for this BS! OMG? Has EVERYONE COMPLETELY LOST THEIR MIND? Don't forget to e-mail this jerk and tell him how he has shamefully betrayed his own people!

[Sydnie]

62. He got the kiss last night.

The fix was in already. Wonder what they promised him?

[fooj]

64. The kiss of betrayal! I want this guy out of office! Now!

[fooj]

65. GET OUT THE HOOK! QUICK!

[woodsprite]

71. What goes around comes around - like Judas n/t

[fooj]

75. Thanks...I needed that! Welcome to DU!

[fooj]

66. "What happened was embarrasing and hurtful" OMG!

I guess so...excuse me while I go to the restroom and puke!:puke:

[fooj]

67. JUDAS!! He has betrayed us all!

I'm over the top here! I can't believe this whiner! The blood is on his hands...

[Peace Patriot]

70. Domenici (R-NM) is good for smelling the politcal winds...

...he's talking about the opposition who "come down here and argue these 'legal niceties' (i.e., torture), some of them believe what they're saying, but a lot of these Senators who can't believe that George Bush is still president."

Read: OUR MESSAGE IS GETTING OUT!!! Arrogance, hubris, oblivious to majority opinion, not elected!

Domenici: Dems can't imagine that this Hispanic could be a Pub nominee. Promises that in the future Hispanics are not going to be "naturally" Democrats any more.

------

ONE MORE HOUR OF DEBATE:

15 mins - Leahy (on now)
15 mins - Pug time
15 mins - Min. Leader Reid (Dem)
15 mins - Frist (Pug)

VOTE

[fooj]

74. My friend, my heart aches for this country! How can we remedy

these injustices? Great...now they are using Salazar and Leibermann against the opposition's arguments! My heart is breaking, however, my spirit is not broken! Our country needs us now more than ever before! I will never leave the side of my fellow patriots and I will fight like hell for the integrity and honor of my beloved country! Damn them all!

[Peace Patriot]

72. Patrick Leahy (D-VT) giving a good summary speech...

...saying none of the Dems were prejudiced against the nomination, but doubts grew as Judic Committee hearing proceeded, for some Gonzales' opinion of the scope of Prez power, for others his legal reasoning on torture, his poor judgment, and for others, his lack of independence from Bush--and for many Gonzales' failure to answer questions, failure to disavow torture and Prez power opinions...

Leahy lambasts the Pod People on the phrase "legal niceties," that Dems were fussing over "legal niceties."

Leahy: "TORTURE IS NOT A LEGAL NICETY."

At bottom of chain of command, prosecutions for torture, at top of chain of command, medals and appointments.

We need to regain the high moral ground. Dems are not voting in lockstep. Shouldn't be a partisan vote on either side of the aisle. Vote your conscience!

----

Specter now speaking. More Pod thoughts. (He's quoting Schumer who likes Gonzales but who is VOTING AGAINST HIM."

[Peace Patriot]

76. "The Horatio Alger" story...

...that Specter just mentioned AGAIN (it's been nauseating)...one of 7 children... poor...no running water ...no telephone ... worked his way up ...

He quoted Schumer who described this as a "Horatio Alger story that makes us all proud to be Americans"---(Schumer has some praise of Gonzales, but is voting against him)...

...NONE OF THEM...--and those voting both for and against have mentioned this "story"...

...NONE OF THEM mention where the story ENDS, in toady ass-kissing of the Bush cartel and writing the legal opinions that led directly to WIDESPREAD torture of prisoners and egregrious, secret RE-WRITING OF and VIOLATION OF our laws!

HORATIO ALGER GOES BAD!

[Sydnie]

79. And if they have their way, we'll have a chance to repeat that

entire story with another generation!

[rumpel]

77. Did any Senator in the 3 days mention the Texas Death Row issue re:

Gonzales recommendation?

on edit wasn't he the one, who did not disclose potential existing evidence or new evidence in cases which would have given some inmates a new hearing and a stay of execution?

[rumpel]

78. Yes, Here it is: The Texas Clemency Memos

White House Counsel Alberto Gonzales's Texas Execution Memos:
How They Reflect on the President, And May Affect Gonzales's Supreme Court Chances
By JOHN W. DEAN

snip

The memos were initially confidential, meant for the Governor alone. They have not themselves been published. But they have been reviewed by writer Alan Berlow of The Atlantic Monthly, and his report on their contents is disturbing indeed.

The Gonzales execution memos raise serious - and, unfortunately ugly - questions, not because of what they say, rather because of what they fail to say. They also suggest that President Bush's earlier claims about how he, in fact, handled clemency requests as Governor of Texas are less than accurate.

http://writ.news.findlaw.com/dean/20030620.html

The Atlantic Monthly | July/August 2003
 

The Texas Clemency Memos

As the legal counsel to Texas Governor George W. Bush, Alberto R. Gonzales—now the White House counsel, and widely regarded as a likely future Supreme Court nominee—prepared fifty-seven confidential death-penalty memoranda for Bush's review. Never before discussed publicly, the memoranda suggest that Gonzales repeatedly failed to apprise Bush of some of the most salient issues in the cases at hand

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/prem/200307/berlow

[rumpel]

84. Did I hear Chafee, Aye?

[Peace Patriot]

137. Yes, the Texas Clemency memos were mentioned, 57 of them...

...by one of the Dem Senators late in today's debate, I think. I took notes on it and now can't remember who said it, but it's in this thread. Omission of info about prisoners' legal representation and mental status from memos to Gov Bush.

[fooj]

80. How can we dispute these comments by Frist? They are not true!

[Peace Patriot]

81. Harry Reid (D-Nev, min. leader) wrapping it up...and here is where...

...the Democrats so often go wrong. Reid starts off well...

--our great nation founded on the idea of human rights
--a place where the state would never trample on the rights of individuals
--we've sometimes failed but always tried
--our unshakeable belief in human rights has become a beacon to the world
--we are a land "governed by laws not men" --a place where no one, not even the Prez, is above the law
--even in war, the rule of law --written into the Unif. Code of Mil. Justice

(here's where Dems go wrong...)

--these (?? Taliban?? Al Q??) are "very, very bad people" BUT...
--the Gonz. Torture Memo PUTS OUR OWN SOLDIERS AT RISK.

(see the flaw? WHEN were these "very, very bad people" convicted of being "very, very bad"? indefinite detention, no lawyer, no contact with outside world, no trial, not even a military tribunal, no ACCUSATIONS!, don't even know why they're there. MANY of the detainees in Guantanamo Bay, Iraq and Afghanistan have been established to be ENTIRELY INNOCENT, by outside information--by the Red Cross, and also Britain got their detainees out of Gitmo, and the facts have been established about them--not guilty of ANYTHING. Also in Iraq, MANY, MANY not combatants of any kind, according to Red Cross. WE ARE NOT JUST IMPRISONING AND TORTURING TALIBAN AND AL QEADA. WE ARE IMPRISONING AND TORTURING ENTIRELY INNOCENT PEOPLE.

Reid does talk about the tortures inflicted. But he never does say that MOST of the people imprisoned and tortured ARE INNOCENT.

----

Bill Frist now speaking. He may be the last speaker. He said something like "I hope the oposition will not block an up and down vote." Not sure what that means.

[fooj]

82. Right! These methods of torture just "happenend" to pop up

at three different locations around the globe! Didn't realize soldiers packed their hoods, chains, dogs...etc., for combat!

[SaveAmerica]

85. Are they voting or just taking roll?

[rumpel]

86. voting

[Peace Patriot]

83. They're VOTING, but I can't HEAR the votes!

NO ONE'S STOPPING THIS! I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!

[SaveAmerica]

87. They'll re-cap it at the end n/t

[Vadem]

88. After they vote, the clerk will read the ayes and nays......n/t

[SaveAmerica]

89. Boxer 'No' she must have wanted to be more low profile after Rice's hearin

[rumpel]

90. How many votes do they need? Mom says 65?

[SaveAmerica]

92. I'm not sure, I thought 60

[SaveAmerica]

91. McCain should be ashamed of himself n/t

[Vadem]

94. Graham should be ashamed of himself, also......n/t

[rumpel]

93. Nelson of FL. Aye?

[Sydnie]

95. That's what he said n/t

[SaveAmerica]

96. yep, that's what he said. I don't understand that either, he had nothing

to lose

[flyarm]

104. nelson fla is my senator..and now he makes me sick!!

i wasn't a big fan of nelson and i have my reasons..he is not the most personable person..rather cold , and he never seems to vote for our party principles or values..he voted for condi rice and now a torturer...i am done with this guy!! and i have worked for his campaigns in the past..but that does it for me!!
from a woman married to a hispanic and the mother of a hispanic son!!

nelson is a sell out!

fly

[Vadem]

102. Yes, and Nelson of Neb, also; Liberman and Salazar;....unless

some pubs vote no, he has it, since the 4 traitorous dems voted for the torturer!

[SaveAmerica]

97. Hillary and Obama no

[SaveAmerica]

98. I have 30 no's 31 with reed anyone else?!!!!

[flyarm]

99. vote taking place kerry just walked into the chamber!! n/t

[Sydnie]

100. Is that Kerry and Obama in the left bottom corner of the screen

talking to each other?

[SaveAmerica]

103. can't see, online too small, who's in the light blue suit? Clinton?

[Vadem]

106. Yes, that's Hillary; I can't believe Mary Landrieu voting aye!..n/t

[jsamuel]

101. Those who vote NO are our leaders, the Ayes are not worth our praise ever!

[SaveAmerica]

105. I agree up to 34 leaders if my count is right n/t

[flyarm]

114. looks like shumer is not happy with nelson fla

loks like nelson is in hot seat with shumer , and it has look like he is a loney guy..i wish he was blackballed..he is blackballed in this fla household now..for good!!

i have had it with these repub lites..these f ing wimps..i am ashamed to say nelson is my senator , and i am calling his office to say so!!

from a fla delegate.

fly

[rumpel]

107. Landrieu. aye

[MadLinguist]

108. Dixiecrat cow!

[Peace Patriot]

109. It's looking like almost straight partyline vote, so far 35 Dems against.

That includes Jeffords (Indep.) Exceptions; Lieberman, Salazar (D-CO), Mary Landreau (D-LA), and Nelson (D-FLA). And Pryor (D-ARK).

All Pod People voting for.

[rumpel]

110. Lieberman, Landrieu, Salazar, Nelson one more Dem and that's it, or did I

miss someone.

[Vadem]

115. Nelson (FL) and Nelson (Neb): Aye..........

Six Dems went to the dark side--Nelson, FL, Landrieu and Pryor surprised me.

[Vadem]

111. Mark Pryor of ARK voted AYE! ......n/t TORTURER IS IN..N/T

[SaveAmerica]

112. I was very proud of Edwards when he let go of his Senate job so

he could put his all into the campaign (I felt it showed confidence in not needing a back up job). Now I really wish he were still in there *&^*&%**&^ Burr!! He and Dole should also be ashamed of themselves considering the amount of military from NC that is now in Iraq.

[SaveAmerica]

113. Did Kerry vote? I didn't hear it? If they needed 60 some democrat

senators heads gonna roll!!!!!

[Sydnie]

116. Kerry voted no

Announced in this order-
Clinton - no
Kerry - no
Obama - no

[rumpel]

117. 60 votes needed 60 votes gotten. darn, he barely made it.

[SaveAmerica]

119. OH MY GOD!!! I didn't know it was going to be that close, I'm

sick now. I can't find the words, what could have gone through those nitwit 4 stupid idiots minds to not think of our soldiers!!!!!!

[Vadem]

121. SIX traitor nitwits............n/t

[rumpel]

123. who did I miss? edit: Never mind. Nelson and Pryor.

[rumpel]

122. are they all up for re-election soon?

[Sydnie]

124. not just the soldiers -- what about ALL the citizens?

He will be "our lawyer" ... yeah right.

[Sydnie]

120. Hardly a mandate though -- a squeaker at best

I want to know what deals they made with Lieberman. That kiss last night was very telling and I now want him to tell me what he gets for this trade.

I live in MA and I will work for any candidate that opposes him in CT. Anybody But Lieberman!

[Peace Patriot]

118. I got them all--all the NO votes. I'll put up the list in a sec.

THANKS, CATAMOUNT! I forgot that the Dems needed enough votes to prevent Pugs shutting off a filibuster. They would've needed 41 votes. They got 36. The Dem pro-Bush voters--Salazar, Landrieu, Lieberman, Pryor and Nelson (FLA) effectively prevented a filibuster. I hope they are ostracized!

VOTED NO ON GONZALES:

Boxer
Cantwell
Lautenberg
Leahy
Murray
Reed (Nev.)
Feingold
Durbin
Levin
Byrd

T. Johnson
Mikulski
Rockefeller
Corzine
Harkin
Dodd
Kennedy
Kohl
Akaka
Dayton

Bingaman
Sarbanes
Wyden
Clinton
Kerry
Obama
Biden
Schumer
Dorgan
Reed (RI)

Bayh
Carper
Feinstein
Stabenow
Lincoln

Jeffords (Ind.)

------

Debate and vote over.

-----

Currently on C-Span2: Byron Dorgan (D-ND) giving a good speech on Social Security (responding to Bush privatization looting).

[SaveAmerica]

125. Thank you so much, Peace for all that you've done to keep us

informed. Now I've got to get away from this computer before I throw it out the window.

[fooj]

126. Your hard work is appreciated! Thanks for giving us a place to go

when we need answers or simply, to vent! Make sure you check out my response at the end of the day yesterday! I was floored by what you wrote...very powerful! Thank you for that! PEACE!

[Peace Patriot]

127. Someone upthread said SIX traitor Democrats. Is there a 6th?

I have...

Salazar
Landrieu
Lieberman
Pryor
Nelson (FLA)

FIVE, right?

[DETERMINEDPROGRESIVE]

128. Yes,

In GD Politics they listed Sen Nelson twice.

[ROH]

129. I think there's Nelson (Nebraska) ...

as well as Nelson (Florida) in the list?

[Peace Patriot]

133. You are right. There were SIX.

MARY LANDRIEU
KEN SALAZAR
MARK PRYOR
BILL NELSON (Fla.)
JOSEPH LIEBERMAN
BEN NELSON (NE)

And there were THREE who DIDN'T vote, incredibly:

Baucus
Inouye
Conrad

GO HERE for ACTION FORUM on these 9 miscreants:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=315821&mesg_id=315821

[Peace Patriot]

138. Keep KICKED through the weekend (2/4,5,6)...

...important to contact Dem Senators as they assess anti-Gonzales effort this weekend.

ACTION THREAD:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=203&topic_id=315821

[Peace Patriot]

139. Kick through the weekend!

See the ACTION THREAT mentioned above.