A new idea on VVPB

[BeFree]

I would be willing to accept a VVPB that tabulates as it goes.

It would work like this: As your vote is printed, along side of your recorded vote is the running total for each candidate you voted for..

I know, I know, you don't think you should know what the total is until you get home and they pronounce it on TV.

Well that's too damn bad. I want the running total printed out NOW. That way if the machine does screw up, and it will, the auditing will be very simple. Just look at the running totals on the tape and it will tell you what happened in that black hole box that used to be used to steal the election.

And who cares if someone blurbs what the running total is? It can't be changed, it can't be altered, it just is, and blabbing to someone about the running total on one steenkin' machine ain't gonna make anybody change their vote, otherwise polls would be outlawed!

Or: If you don't think you shouldn't know the running total, that part of the VVPB would be hidden from view, like off to the side under some plastic.

That's the only way I will accept using machines as a way to record or tabulate my vote. Take it or leave it!

[BeFree]

1. I envision

That the VVPB will be something like a cash register tape. You experts disagree?

What the voter will see is the vote as printed through a little window. Off to the side, or bottom, or wherever, out of view of the voter, would be the running total with your newly cast vote added into the total.

Upon just a casual examination - An Audit - any simple minded election officer could easily see if the machine screwed up.

In fact, the tape would be what was counted... drumroll... that would be a paper ballot! A voter verified paper ballot!

[demodonkey]

2. I'm not for the running total being known, as of now it's illegal....

In Pennsylvania. Our pollworkers are NOT allowed to open machines for any reason or pry into absentee ballots (which are paper in my county) until AFTER the polls close. The official poll results have to be secret until after closing and proper counting, as the law is currently written.

Also, if the total is printed on the ballot, it could be possible to figure out how an individual voter voted, using the poll book (order they voted in.) Secrecy of the ballot is important!

If people could come out and report the official totals at the time they voted... oh oh... can you imagine the rush to GOTV at the last minute for the "losing" candidate?

I can see it now... DU this vote! "Attention DUers in XXXX precinct! I just voted and the Dem candidate is behind by 30 votes! DU this precinct before the Freepers get there...." LOL ;-)

OTOH the "losing" side might just give up and not bother to vote later in the day.

Sorry, it's an interesting idea, but I want a secret ballot and secret results until everybody has had a chance to vote.

[BeFree]

3. So, keep the total hidden

You are right, the totals shouldn't be known ahead of time. That's why I later suggested they should be hidden from view. You could see your votes recorded correctly, but the totals would be out of sight. Thanks!

[demodonkey]

4. You could still tell how I voted.

Just look in the pollbook and see that I signed in #40, then scroll down the tape to the 40th person who added to the vote totals and that would be me.

Especially in closed primaries -- look in the pollbook and see that I signed in as the 23rd Democrat... then just look for the 23rd person to have added to the Dem vote totals. Again that would be me!

Secret vote is a very important part of our Democracy. A lot of people won't vote if they think somebody can tell who it was for. I'm a pollworker and I know this. You'd be amazed how many people don't even want me to announce their PARTY, which we have to do at least for Primaries (so the other pollworker can set the machine for the correct party.)

[BeFree]

6. DREs, if they actually record

Can place you with your vote.

But that is if there is just one machine in a precinct, two machines would monkeywrench your scenario all to hell. Absentee and early votes can be traced.

Only by the use of paper and pen, hand marked and hand counted, is the vote non-traceable. Also, the use of OptiScan to tally the votes would keep all a secret, eh?

But we ain't gonna get hand marked and habd counted paper ballots, are we?

[garybeck]

5. question

when is the vote being cast and by what?

is the paper involved in the casting of the vote or is it just for a record of the vote?

there is a big difference.

[BeFree]

7. Details

"when is the vote being cast and by what?"

It looks like we will be stuck with printers attached to DREs,. My idea is that those printers would be similar to cash register checkout tapes.

"is the paper involved in the casting of the vote or is it just for a record of the vote?"

With this plan, the 'checkout tape' would be the only official record. The running tally would be the last number on the tape, and just a quick look through the tape would be the audit.

Even on OptiScan, a running total would appear, so that as a ballot was scanned, the person(s) looking at the tally could tell if the ballot was scanned correctly. Heck, the running total could even be printed onto the scanned ballot.

[garybeck]

8. then it's not a secret ballot

I'd rather have the paper be the actual ballot and get rid of this "Direct Recording" concept completely.

Yes, the question is then how to cast the paper ballot. opticscan is a problem too.

but i'm concerned that all these VVPB plans are not ballots, they are just backups. There can't be a person watching the vote tally for every machine and that would end the secret ballot anyway.

those pieces of paper should be counted by hand. machines can produce ballots, but they should not count them.

All this talk of VVPB on the various bills is starting to sound like a misrepresentation of the facts. None of them are actually VVPB unless it's the ballot. Otherwise call it a VVPR (record, not ballot).

if we have to settle for VVPR, that would be unfortunate. Holt calls for 2% spot checks which I'm not sure is adequate.

we must stand our ground!

[BeFree]

9. Stand our ground?

Shit, we done lost it.

As much as I hate to admit it, the DREs are not going away. The best we are going to get is that there is a little window where the voter gets to see a printout of her vote.

Nevada used such a machine, and where is Ensign from? That's what we will be using, not, as some of us desire a hand counted paper ballot, but a computerized touchscreen.

My state people tell me that the best we will get is a paper tape with votes recorded on it, and a spot check audit. I am not happy with that, but they don't listen to me.

If it's a paper tape, so be it. Just have a running total on that tape so an audit will be as simple as can be.

[garybeck]

10. if that's all we get, we need to

research all methods of triggering recounts and audits. we need to be ready next time and request recounts and audits in all cases possible. it's our only hope.

[BeFree]

11. Sorry Gary, you are out of touch

Look at all the requests for audits in Ohio that were subverted and obstructed.

We still can't make heads or tails of that process. Even New Hampshire is being questioned and they worked hard to get that far.

The best we can do is to make it a paper ballot, easily audited. The supermarket checkout tapes, indeed, even ATMs have running totals. Those running totals can be checked by the least paid employee in that department. Easy, Simple, and Verifiable.