DUers: We Know it was Stolen...

[Jack_Dawson]

Have you heard of a single instance (and let me repeat...a SINGLE instance) where all this fraud pouring in favors...Kerry? Nope. Don't you think it "coincidental" that multiply 70% Democratic Counties in Jeb Bush's Florida voted 70% for Bush?

Randi had a guest on who said Exit Polls are deadly accurate. In fact, they are so accurate they are used to PREVENT voter fraud in Third World Countries. When Vicente Fox won by 7.5 points according to Exit Polls, the country went nuts, because they KNEW there was so way the PRI could attempt a coup at that point.

Guest later said it would be unheard of to have an exit poll wrong by 5 points. (3rd OH Exit Poll: Kerry 52, Bush 47). He also said it would be UNPRECEDENTED to have SEVEN polls wrong And yes, all 7 of those had Kerry winning handily.

Do you really think it would be hard for BBV makers (all of whom are on the record to support Bush) to program their paper trail-less software to throw every 3rd Dem vote out? Or switch every 4th Dem vote to the Repugs? Nope.

88,000 more votes than voters. I mean...THINK about that.
http://www.washingtondispatch.com/spectrum/archives/000715.html

And before you trolls post a "Let's Get Over It" reply to this, take a look at your post count. If it's less than 200, head back home. Go on. Git.

The rest of us - we can ready ourselves for FOUR MORE YEARS of this fraud, or we can keep calling into talk shows and sending wildly suspicious precinct returns to the media. As someone else posted, I'd rather wear a :tinfoilhat: than a paper bag.

[Kolesar]

1. I am still a skeptic

I will give you credit for a fact-filled post.

4000 lost votes in Gahanna is described as a "glitch". Do you remember how Al Jaffe in Mad Magazine used "glitch" in his comics? It was when someone stepped in dog shit. Right now, Ohio has dog shit on their shoes.

[rodeodance]

4. and looking on the bright side

BRIGHT SPOTS
Evan Derkacz, AlterNet
November 2 wasn't a wash for progressive causes. Anti-war
senators won by landslides, polluters were voted out of
office, and progressive initiatives on the minimum wage,
education, and drug policy won in states that Bush
dominated.

http://www.alternet.org/election04/20436/


Asking people to look on the bright side of Election 2004 is, to quote Kristina Wilfore of the Ballot Initiative Strategy Center, "a little like asking Mrs. Lincoln how the show was." Progressives are reeling and grasping for bearings after a confusing and upsetting loss on Nov. 2. And why shouldn't they be? For millions, it was the first time they'd dared to hope in a long, long time.

But there are reasons to remain hopeful. Despite the high-profile electoral losses and the passage of 11 anti-gay measures, there were dozens of successes and encouraging trends for the progressive cause – most of which came at the local level. Poor Dr. King; he's always turned to when things look bleakest – and now is no different. The latest of his inspiring words making the rounds in post-election e-mails: "The arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice."

This story is about focusing for a moment on some of the important successes from this past Tuesday. And "success" isn't simply code for "where Democrats won." Success, for the purposes of this article is defined by initiatives, candidates and trends that favor anti-war stances, a strong defense of the environment, sane drug policies, and a movement toward a just and tolerant America.

Down to business.
Lots more........

[txindy]

20. There's North Carolina, too

They are discussing the possibly of a re-vote due to the number of ballots irretrievably lost in the machines. The question now is whether it's a local or state-wide re-vote.

There are too many coincidences in too many states not to take this seriously, IMO. If just one of those problems was due to something other than the infamous BBV machines, this might be easier to explain. That's also true about the complete absence of a single 'mistake' in John Kerry's favor. It's just not likely, to put it mildly.

[NamVetsWeeLass]

2. Jack, You hit how I feel. Right on the head.

I would rather wear my :tinfoilhat: than to be the Unknown American. (Ok I am using Gong Show references... damn I am getting old) I know, He conceded, I know it seems like He doesn't care, But damnit, He is still MY PRESIDENT! I want him to fight, I really do. Will he? I have no Idea, But People that think like us need to stay in the foxholes together. (if you will excuse the War reference, But hey, this is a war... They stole something very dear to at least 55 million of us) When you can go to a Website (SorryEverybody.com) and see messages posted from AROUND THE WORLD saying that there is a Problem, shouldn't you at least Notice? Do you, Or anyone for that matter, Recall ANYTHING that was this epic in 2000? I don't remember anything of this scale happening. I mean the Global scale that this is reaching is unreal. Did I just miss this in 2000? Did I not get a memo? Who forgot to tell me? In Honesty, I was just graduating from Nursing school, My life was insane, But I think I would remember something of this size.... Isn't the fact that this is happening enough to warrant a recount? There is something somewhere that is definately wrong.

On edit: Spelling and Punctuation are good things to remember.

[hexola]

3. I too remain unconvinced...

I'm happy that people are looking seriously at it...but I think trying to gererate some sort of popular outrage is a waste...and makes us look like fools.

[tngledwebb]

17. Or

we may look like sitting ducks, or like quiet Jews in Nazi Germany, or we may look like people of principle and perhaps even true and courageous patriots.

Think- if there was NO evidence of fraud, wouldn't the corporate media be pushing that spin along with the morality issue? Or to underscore the 'mandate' and the exit poll errors, etc?

[kuozzman]

5. Let's go tell Jeb! He said he was dying to know!

The New York Times (11/4, Drew, Goodnough) reports:
Florida Gov. Jeb Bush "criticized the surveying of voters leaving the polls. At midday Tuesday those surveys showed Mr. Kerry ahead in many swing states and by as many as nine points in Florida."

Gov. Bush said, "We were feverishly trying to find someone ."

He added that it turned out that "this brilliant exit poll company that was hired to replace the really stupid one that screwed up the last election ."

The governor "said he had called the president Tuesday afternoon and told him to discount the so- called exit polls. 'By midafternoon we were still down and I told him, "I don't believe it,"' he said."

[leftchick]

6. I agree totally Jack....

The better question to ask election officials is... Prove to me that there was not voter fraud because all of the evidence points to tampering.

[kuozzman]

7. Exactly! It can't be done with a lot...

Then ask why they purposely didn't get verifiable ones? I forget if maryland's results were off, but I just read this about their legislation:

Electronic voting machines

Require paper verification of computerized votes: Died in conference committee.

[truthpusher]

8. If half of DU doesn't seem to be doing anything about it?

What makes you think the rest of the country cares? Sorry to sound harsh, but you know the the Repukes by now would be knocking down the doors of every government building in every county they saw problems in! Thanks for taking some action on the issue. I am not sure if any of this will pan out or not, but it's our job to see it through.

[liberal N proud]

9. Only 4 states showed different results than the exit polls

The exit polls were right on with the exeption of Florida, Ohio, New Hampsire and New Mexico.

Something is fishy here and it's not Lake Erie in Ohio or the Gulf of Mexico in Florida.

[chimpymustgo]

10. Are you sure about this? If tthis is true, it's a huge piece of evidence.

thanks for pointing this out!

[thephaseshift]

46. Wrong!

Not according to the bar graph comparing exit polls and results that's been floating around:

I don't know what to trust anymore. This whole thing started with a claim that in "electronic states" (already that's not clear, since most states had a mixture of equipment), Bush had clear advantages *as compared to* so-called non-electronic states.

Even the graph above can't be quite right, or at least it's not clear - since for example Ohio is listed as 'electronic', and yet as far as I can tell it had tons of punch cards in areas with high voter registration (check out http://www.electionline.org/interactiveMap.jsp?page=Interactive+Map for state-by-state maps of voter registration and equipment types), so it can hardly be called 'electronic'. As far I can judge, 'electronic' counties are those using either touch-screen or optical-scan machines. In both cases the data are uploaded and counted at some remote location using a hackable tallying program.

Does *anyone* have a truly reliable set of numbers relating exit polls and equipment into TAKING INTO ACCOUNT the various kinds of equipment used? What I haven't found yet are numbers describing *what percentage of Ohio voters* actually used punch cards, and what percentage used either optical or touchscreen machines. If we had these numbers we could maybe show that the greater the number of voters using electronic methods, the greater the discrepancy between state-wide exit polls and actual counts.
Until we have county-for-county exit poll numbers, the best we can do is to estimate HOW 'electronic' a state is and how 'pure-paper' it is, rather than classifying states as either 'paper' or 'electronic', which leads to confusing and probably incorrect interpretations.

[newyawker99]

50. Hi thephaseshift!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[On the Road]

11. I Originally Bought the Explanation for Skewed Exit Polls

but I'm starting to get a different impression from guests like this. Zogby is fiercely defending the exit polls.

I don't have a clear idea as to why the reweighting was done. Changes in turnout are a legitimate reasons, but Zogby seems to be saying this is not what happened.

[sadiesworld]

12. Of course they stole it.

Let's pretend for a moment that the RNC believes that * won fair and square. Why in the hell are they not screaming at the top of their lungs about these exit polls? They should be going after the exit pollers with both barrels.

Yet all they do is send out the usual suspects from their shitty think tanks to whine about how "exit polls are meaningless now".

I, for one, want a full investigation into these exit polls. How DARE these exit polling crooks besmirch smirky's victory. :P

[JD Lau]

13. thank you for thinking like this...for to continue to think lik this...

My comments regarding this presidential election and the groundswell for recount:

It's not about whether Side A won, or whether Side B won, but...in the
case of electronic voting machines...that ANYBODY can hack into the
main frame and change the votes for a whole precinct or county or
state...in about 90 seconds. A junior high student can do this. A
child.

To me...living in a country such as ours where our right to vote for
whomever we wish to...is a blessed right...that anybody can do this,
can hack the vote, and that WE ALLOW it to happen(as well as allowing
private companies to own the electronic voting machines) does not bode
well for our democracy.

If it was your guy that lost, and you felt that there were some really
fishy results appearing, would you not want to look at it a bit closer?

And if everybody says..."Whatever..." or "Get over
it"...or...”You’ll have your chance in 2006(or 2008)” then whomever is in power can just(continue to) hack into the machines and pick
and choose who wins...the next time...or the time after that...or the
time after that...and we, the people, are the ultimate losers. Our system of voting becomes irrelevant. And our claim to be free people living in a political state that nourishes freedom becomes a delusion. We might
as well live in a country where people are beaten at the polls...or
where we don't have the right to vote AT ALL.

The right to vote, and TO HAVE YOUR VOTE COUNT, is what our country is
based on. Please, don't take that right lightly. It's a right your
children(and my grandchildren) "still" have, as well. I'd love to keep
it that way and I am working hard for just that reason.

We are not a country where “who cheats best wins”. If we don’t deal with the electronic voting issue NOW while the evidence is fresh, then we might as well kiss our democracy good bye.

[ewagner]

26. That's the point

I don't know if anything can or will change the results of THIS election. But I do know that confidence in the electoral process has been seriously undermined.

I have emailed my elected representatives about this point and this point alone. We've got to fix this mess no matter what.

For that reason fraud and illegal activities need to be EXPOSED.

Carry on DUers...

[Jack_Dawson]

49. Well Said n/t

[newyawker99]

51. Hi JD Lau!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Debbi801]

14. Here's what I don't get...

I listened to Al Frankin yesterday and he refuses to believe it. My husband and I keep listening to him since the election and keep wondering what his problem is, why he is in denial.

So, last night, I was bored and couldn't find anything on TV. So, I decided to watch an "old" Al Frankin show on the Sundance channel through On Demand (gotta love digital cable). It was the episode from 10-27. Multiple times through out that hour, he brought up the fact that he was sure we were going to win, that the repugs knew we were going to win, and that the only way it could turn on the repug's favor would be through voter intimidation, disenfranchisement, and fraud. That the repugs would need to steal the election. He even had a guest on that discussed this very thing with him.

So, what happened to him between the week before the election and November 3rd? Was he bought or silenced? I believe that the election was stolen and that Senator Kerry should be Presenident-elect Kerry right now. But, I gotta admit, the sound of the crickets is deafening right now. I would feel a lot better if more people were speaking up. After the first couple of days post-election (where I was too depressed to be optimistic), I was so optimistic that the truth would come out, we'd see vindication, etc. But, ever day of silence and I see some of my optimism trickling away.

I hope something happens soon.
Debbi

[seimmud]

16. threats

Al was probably phoned and told to keep his mouth shut or mysterious things will start happening to his family...

[Jack_Dawson]

22. He's Definitely lost whatever FIRE he used to have

I can't listen. I can only do Randi.

[Minstrel Boy]

45. Franken flees the monstrous reality.

Before the election, he could make the heady claim that Bush could only win by fraud because it was supposition to fire up the base. Now there's evidence he runs and hides, because if he admitted it were true, it would destroy his DLC dreamworld.

There's an ever-increasing cognitive dissonance for those on the left who refuse to entertain hypotheses which they so long disdained as "conspiracy theories."

[LibDemAlways]

15. Why would anyone even doubt that it was stolen?

I have two words to say to the naysayers : Karl Rove.

Anyone here think Karl Rove is a man of decency and integrity who believes in the democratic process? A man who fights fair? You think he would ever let the "will of the people" stand in his way?

Karl Rove used every dirty trick in the book against Kerry, and then, for extra insurance, played the crooked vote count card. He knew he needed Ohio and Florida, and he knew he needed both of them by comfortable margins in order to get Kerry to back down and go away.
Rove doesn't give a damn about exit polls. He knew the media would buy any excuse he came up with. All he needed was the extra votes.

The exit polls were right. Zogby was right.

The American people were again screwed by a ruthless repuke regime that won't take "no" for an answer.

[seimmud]

19. I have my doubts

Simply based on the popular vote numbers but I have no doubt people were told to either vote * or suffer consequences in battle ground states.

[GreenPartyVoter]

18. In the meantime, no matter where you stand on whether or not

it was stolen, we know the system needs work. Do what you can to make sure the voting system in your own town and county is verifiable. Then go a step futher and see what you can do about election reform.

-----------------------------------------------------------
FIGHT! Take this country back one town and state at a time!
http://www.geocities.com/greenpartyvoter/electionreform.htm

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ramblin_dave]

23. If 2004 was rigged then 2006 and 2008 will also

be rigged if we do nothing now. We have to know the answer now. No one should stand in the way of allowing us to know what really happened.

[Jack_Dawson]

24. Bye Bye!

:hi:

[tngledwebb]

25. But BushCo has

the Congress, SCOTUS, the corporate media, the corporations themselves, the military and whatever is left of its' firepower, the Patriot Act, plus lifetime OBL video rights. Make it a fair fight, give us something back.

No, never mind, I forgot, we've got the brains, the 'moraility issue' and the great majority of voters on our side. Your days are numbered.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[tngledwebb]

28. Not a surprise.

Now goway.

[Sparkly]

30. Would you call the earth round?

:eyes:

[Name removed]

31. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Sparkly]

29. "May the best man (or woman) win"

That's not going to happen as long as the process is wide open to fraud. It's not going to happen as long as the media remains a willing tool of the GOP. It's not going to happen as long as our party follows Republicans' advice to be polite, back down, give up, let go, get over it, and "don't be negative!" etc.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[IAMREALITY]

33. Right There With Ya Pharrett

All I keep thinking is...

If this situation were reversed, how LOUD would POS Hannity be screaming. He would be so impassioned that his base would be taking to the streets with such rigor it isn't even funny. Just ponder it for a minute. Picture what his radio show would sound like if the situation were reversed. WE NEED TO COME OUT SWINGING WITH THAT SAME FORCE!!!!!!!

[Kolesar]

37. The media that promulgated that pro-war propaganda is a republican media

Nothing could be simpler than that. Coverage of the war was horribly biased towards Bush's point of view. Dissent was just not published. In fact, known lies were published. Google "judith miller" and "new york times".

They (the media and the gop) used that unnecessary and stupid war as a way to divide the Democratic voters. They can all go to hell, all the media and all the republicans.

[DARE to HOPE]

34. it was stolen

and we will never again have as much power as we do right now to rescue our democracy

[txindy]

36. "Your candidate?" "..you and your fellow non-Republicans...?"

Here's your hat.

:hi:

[lakeguy]

35. whew, i've got over 200 posts so i guess my reply "counts"

that said, i agree 100%!

[donkeyotay]

38. Thanks for this post

I love the logic of peeples saying work for 2006 or 2008, as if 2000, 2002 and 2004 had not happened. If the vote-counting system is crooked, then you might as well be telling people to go back to their knitting as to work on the next election.

We will not be getting a smoking memo on fraud. Anyone with hard proof is either down with stealing elections or not willing to put their families at risk.

The only evidence we have is circumstantial and statistical. Why, you ask, do all the glitches go in the Gop's favor? Why do the statistical outliers go in their favor? Those types of questions make you suspicious, but aren't proof.

So, if computers are not deciding elections, why do rightwingers own the companies?

If computers are reliable, why no auditable trails?

If corporations do not buy representation, why do they fund candidates?

If capitalists do not favor one party over another, why do they cheer on the floor of the New York when bush wins?

If television is impartial despite its ownership by defense contractors, why did they help sell a false rationale for war?

And on and on. You know. I'm sorry. I despair for my country. There is no hope when so many would rather sleepwalk through this that face the fact that are freedom now belong solely to the corporations. This is as true for repo citizens as demo citizens. They just don't know it yet, but they will. Too late. The losers here are the citizens.

[hippiegranny]

61. great post

I was nodding in agreement during the whole thing.

[A. Hamilton]

39. Bush

Why do you hate Bush so much? Just wondering?

[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[A. Hamilton]

41. Freeper?

What is a Freeper?

[Jack_Dawson]

43. Bush-Lovers that troll our site

and have fewer than 10 posts.

:hi:

[A. Hamilton]

44. Oh ok

Well I was just wondering, I didnt mean any harm.

[Kralizec]

42. fight for votes != not moving on

I'm glad I found DU. I have been reading as anonymous for about five days now. Finally decided to participate....

As usual, when it comes to getting people just to LOOK at the facts, I've had to fight from the beginning. This case was no different. For example, my family was over last weekend and they were in the "awww schucks" head down - group. I had to blast them away time after time with evidence of fraud, or at the least quesionable results, already numerous. Finally they began to get out of their little turtle-shell and began to realize this is something worth paying attention too. I think it hit them that this was a presidential election, and even if nothing illegal happened, there is no reason we shouldn't assure ourselves that the count is accurate and the process fair.

To those who say to move on. I say to you! MOVE ON. Of course we are thinking of the future. But step one in our nrew image should be that we're not going to tolerate any more games. Draw the lines before things get out of hand.

[nomatrix]

47. Robert Parry shares your feelings.

Explaining Ourselves
http://www.consortiumnews.com/2004/111004.html

-snip-

"That failure has invited the current skepticism expressed by millions who wonder why exit polls in six swing states and nationwide showed John Kerry winning while the “actual” tallies gave those states to George W. Bush. Even Republican pollster Dick Morris is having trouble reconciling these exit poll discrepancies.

“To screw up one exit poll is unheard of,” Morris wrote. “To miss six of them is incredible. It boggles the imagination how pollsters could be that incompetent and invites speculation that more than honest error was at play here.”

Republican Morris then spins off a bizarre conspiracy theory speculating that the exit pollsters were trying to influence the vote outcome for Kerry. But Morris’s fundamental point is well taken: around the world, when exit polls vary from official results, that’s a warning flag of ballot manipulation."

There is so much from this article, I can not limit to four paragraphs.

[nomatrix]

48. This says it all

Exporting Democracy

"For a nation that has invaded a country halfway around the world supposedly to plant the seeds of democracy, questions about the legitimacy of a presidential election should be taken very seriously, not just laughed off. That’s especially true after the Election 2000 debacle when the popular-vote loser, George W. Bush, took the White House under highly questionable circumstances."

-snip-

Media Imbalance

"My best explanation for this system-wide failure is that the United States is dominated by two broad elements of media: a pugnacious conservative news media – from Fox News to Rush Limbaugh with plenty of print, digital and video outlets in between – and a timid mainstream media, which is usually owned by large corporations either run by conservatives (i.e. executives at General Electric owning NBC and MSNBC) or by corporate chieftains who care mostly about profits."

"Just because working reporters may vote Democratic more than Republican doesn’t mean the media is “liberal,” as conservatives often argue. The real power over how stories are handled rests with senior editors and corporate executives, not with beat reporters."

-snip-

"It’s like two armies clashing, one supported by tanks, aircraft and artillery and the other relying on light weapons. It is not a matter of which side is more heroic or more decent. It’s a simple case of mathematics."

[rockydem]

52. Those Florida Counties were dixiecrats

We looked into this here on DU. They voted for Bush in 2000 and most went for Dole in 1996 (perot factor.

[Jack_Dawson]

55. So how do you explain 7 wrong Exit Polls

in 7 BBV states?

[Riceman1974]

59. The exit polls were right

At the end of the day, the exit polls were right. It was only the initial polls that had Kerry ahead. By late afternoon in OH and FL, it was Bush by 1-2 points.

I'm afraid the Exit Poll scandal is not very scandalous at all.

[bullimiami]

60. rockydem. i looked and you are not quite right.

there has been a steady democratic trend in those dixiecrat counties for at least 20 years. suddenly starting with 2000 the trend is reversed.

so either those people love bush so much he reversed the democratization or the installation of optical scan / tabulators has enabled tampering.

so. we need to have a hand count of some of those counties to see if the actual matches the computer counts.


remember even through reagan, bush 1, and the combination of a rep + perot, the democratic trend held up. only george w bush was beloved enough to reverse it.
you think?

[senseandsensibility]

53. I honestly don't get

any Dem or progressive that has been paying attention since 2000, and who doesn't think the * bastards are capable of this.

[GratuitousCheese]

54. A thought...

First post here, I've been lurking here since the election. I joined today to say this:

Something that just occurred to me, that I haven’t seen addressed anywhere amongst the huge amount of confusing info and stats all over the net, is whether it is possible to determine how many of Bush’s 59 million odd votes have some kind of auditable backup and how many do not? Is that information out there and able to be tabulated?

I would think, from some of the things I have read, that if the provable votes for Bush were compared to the provable votes for Kerry that Kerry would come out ahead, both in popular vote total and in electoral college votes. If this is actually the case, I would think that would be a particularly strong statement to be making to the fraud skeptics.

To be able to say “Bush only has X amount of provable votes, and Kerry has X. If Bush is really the winner, then go ahead and prove it!” Of course, all those other votes are in the black box, so there is no proof.

I think that would go a long way, especially if there is a lot of log evidence questioning those electronic machines, to at least ensuring that unverifiable voting won’t stand in another national election, even if it doesn’t result in unseating Bush. Also he would have to spend another 4 years with nobody quite believing that he won legitimately.

If the Democrats have to fight another election with those machines in place, or even with more of them counting the vote, it doesn’t matter what they do, what strategy they adopt, they won’t win.

I think that your fight (not my fight unfortunately, since I’m from Canada) most importantly, is to ensure that you get an auditable, fair voting system in place before 2006. I believe that the USA is a much more liberal country than what this hacked election has shown. The knuckle draggers are really the minority. Good luck.

[tommcintyre]

56. kick

[Technowitch]

57. I'm positive now that the election was stolen

They just did it more thoroughly than 2000. Almost like Florida was the initial test case.

[bullimiami]

58. in florida in 2000 we made an error.

we needed to hand count everything. including the optical scan counties.

we totally missed the (well I did at least and dont remember hearing about it then) possible manipulation of the counting of the op scans.

this mistake will not be made in ohio this year. I dont think so anyway.
if we are correct and op scan tabulators have been hacked all round the country, then ohio and NH should bring a flood of proof to smash the denial and start the clamoring for a nationwide audit.

[tommcintyre]

62. kick