Whether or not you think the vote was hacked is missing the point

[Ian_rd]

Enough of these "Was it hacked?", "It was hacked!", "If Hackett won, you wouldn't think it was hacked" discussions that go nowhere. It invites the "tinfoil hat" response every time. People (and Congress, damnit) need to focus on the real issue.

Real Issue:

There is NO way to know if it was hacked or not because the Voting Machines are a complete mystery. Are they reliable? Hackable? We don't know because Diebold, ES&S, and Sequoia all keep their source code secret. Any request into inspecting these damn things gets a shocked and hurt expression from Mr. Voting Machine Corporation who says, "Well, golly gee, you can trust me!"

It shouldn't be about trust or suspicion, it should be about accountability to the public. Even if we think that the vote was NOT hacked and was perfectly reliable, we should all still be demanding that these machines are independently tested, with capability for meaningful recounts, with paper trails, and all wrapped up in an open process.

It's the same reason we oppose the Patriot Act - not necessarily because we all think that Alberto Gonzalez is keeping detailed files on our library records, but because we believe that the government should not have these powers IN THE FIRST PLACE, regardless if we think they're going to abuse it. Similarly, voting machine manufacturers should not have the ability to keep their code secret.

Holy Jesus! We force Hostess to print the ingredients of Twinkies Cakes on the package, but we DON'T force Diebold to open up their source code for review? They're counting our goddamn votes!

The issue needs to be accountability. If we make the issue fraud, opponents will simply say, "Prove it!" And we won't be able to, because there's no accountability.

[Vincardog]

1. Right we do not need or have to 'prove it' They have to convince us

it is a fair accurate accounting of OUR VOTES. The issue is if we have fair transparent elections or frauds? Anyone who votes to have frauds has some splainin to do.

[SouthernDem2004]

2. Where machines used in the recent Ohio election and what type?

[helderheid]

3. Your examples are exceptional and I applaud you! Recommended!

[AlwaysQuestion]

4. Agreed

You've raised an excellent point and we'd be wise to focus on accountability.

[Fly by night]

5. Welcome to DU. There is no single issue being discussed here.

But I operate on the adage that "if it's broke, fix it." The evidence for tampered-with elections IS the impetus for demanding free, fair and verifiable elections. If our exit polls matched our "reported" results, if the candidates who went into Election Day with a double-digit lead in the polls (like the GA Dem governor candidate in 2002) actually won, if 86 of 88 vote-switching "glitches" did not favor Bush but instead erred equally for both candidates, if Ohio allowed a real recount, if, if, if....

Lord, we can have our cake and eat it to. There is abundant evidence for our elections being tampered with AND there are ample good arguments for fixing our voting stystems, even without that evidence. In either case, it's time to get busy at the local and state level demanding voter-verified paper ballots and mandatory random manual recounts. And I'm late for a meeting to get that done in the Orange State.

Once again, welcome to DU. Stick around -- you will learn something.

[Ian_rd]

7. I think we're basically saying the same thing ...

I do, like you, believe there is strong evidence that fraud occurred in the Georgia 2002 Senate and Mayoral races, and also the Mondale/Coleman race. But in the end, it's all nothing more than circumstantial evidence that is easily dismissed as sour grapes by the winners.

It's like waking up in the morning and finding that your brand new riding lawnmower is parked in the neighbor's driveway. Your neighbor says he didn't steal it, that it's always been his. "Can you prove I stole it?" he asks. "No," you say. "Well, then you're just jealous of my new riding lawnmower," he says and laughs.

Too bad the store DIDN'T GIVE YOU A RECEIPT!

[sandnsea]

6. Glitchgate

You're exactly right, because we keep getting glitches all aross the country and never get an explantion for many of them.