Avante has an "automark"

[Bill Bored]

Anyone know anything about their paper ballot marking device for blind and disabled voters?

How does it compare to ES&S/Vogue's Automark?

Will they be trying for certification in NY?

Have the feds given it their "blessing" yet?

[onthebench]

1. Bill, just call them

They have nothing to hide. Ask to speak to Kevin or Cynthia. Tony or Dave may still be with them. Kevin is genuinely interested in fixing elections. However, as the inventor he is, he may have voting on a back burner as he explores more successful business lines. See their site www.avantetech.com.

[Bill Bored]

2. Fixing elections?

OK, I know you don't mean "fixing."

All I'm saying is that if they have an Op Scan solution with ballot marking assist devices, they might as well try to get certified in NY. They probably have a better reputation than some of the others out there, and there aren't many paper ballot assist devices, are there?

If anyone's interested, the only complaint I've heard about this from disabled voting advocates is that the paper ballot is hard for some people to get from the marker to the scanner privately and independently. ES&S has a solution using ballots with NO writing on them! That won't go over very well with the auditors, although I suppose they could hand count them with a template that had the ballot text printed on it or something.

But if Avante could get the paper ballot physically into the scanner from the marker, that might be a better mousetrap than the Automark.

Just my 2 cents.

[onthebench]

3. fixing elections - that was funny

that is what happens in the wee hours of the morning. I meant creating positive election reform.

I am not 100% sure on their solution for the blind optical scan voter. I know that theirs is the first solution to use a digital scanner instead of the old fashioned SAT type scanners. This made it easier to review ballots (can be done on a computer screen before rejecting a mismarked ballot). I know they developed a full face ballot for NY also but I do not think that it was certified.

The Canadian method is the best in my opinion. They use a plastic frame that the ballot slides into. As the ballot is read, the voter can use his fingers to feel holes in the frame to locate choices.

[Wilms]

6. That plastic frame sounds interesting.

Do you know what it's called?

[onthebench]

7. See page 12 of

voter education info here http://www.electionsontario.on.ca/usr_files/VotingBook_5.pdf

[Wilms]

8. Thanks. n/t

[feelthebreeze]

4. Hey Bill, was at the City of NY's hearing on voting machines...

Knocked for a loop that ES&S has a opscan machine. That in itself gave me some measure of hope that the ongoing fight is having some effect.
Very disturbing testimony given by a fellow from NYPRIG abou the lack of interest and perfunctory attention he is getting in Albany. Is the fix already in?
What is your take?

[onthebench]

5. ESS started out as a paper ballot company

Go to their site and read up on their history. They have been causing problems in elections for years. Ask why there are certain countries like Venezuala where they were kicked out. Ask why they are partly owned by Senator Chuck Hagel?

NYPIRG does not have the money to play in NY. The ESS sales guy is pretty connected in NY. The Sequoia guy is also. Their lobbyists get the time of day. If a repub does not win the governor race, then there is a chance but unless hillary runs, it will not be.

I have spent many wasted hours in NYC election meetings. They will be slow to act. The problem is that NYC can legally operate outside of Albany's influence and rules. NYC is supposedly the only city in the country that can legally declare its own elections. Even for state-wide races like Governor and President.

[Bill Bored]

9. OnTheBench, this is a confusing post.

The City can only use NYS Certified machines.

While they can choose to fund or NOT fund anything they want, as any county now can, they all have to buy machines that are either state BoE certified, or otherwise allowed by a state law. So in a sense, all the counties in the state are now independent to a degree, but are dependent on the state for certification.

Do you have a different take on this? I'm going by the law passed last June, which also says we can keep our lever machines if we decide to do so by 2007. This is almost always reported incorrectly as if there were some kind of directive to do away with them. If you think there is, just read the law.

Expect to see one accessible machine per polling place maximum in 2006 and lever machines for most of the rest of us. 2007 is still a gray area at this point.

I doubt the Repubs will hold the governorship. The state is trending blue and the Repubs have nothing to say except for being pro death penalty and in some cases, anti-choice. (Bloomberg is an aberration and an ex-Dem.) What else do NY Repubs do for a living?

Spitzer or Suozzi will be the next Gov unless 2006 is hacked wholesale, which is unlikely with mostly lever machines.

[onthebench]

11. As it was very late..

Sorry for the confusion. What I meant was the certification of an actual election. Not the machines. Although I bet they could get around the state certification just like counties did in California with Diebold.

[Bill Bored]

10. The only fix that might be in is keeping the lever machines.

We should keep pushing for paper ballots/op scan and try to get some more meaningful auditing regulations beyond the initial 3% required by law.

See this paper by Kathy Dopp about the hypergeometric distribution:
<http://uscountvotes.org/ucvAnalysis/US/paper-audits/Paper_Audits.pdf>
It shows the odds of a corrupted machine being missed by an initial random audit. What we need is a sliding scale so that when the election is closer, there will be more auditing. Of course this would apply to both DREs (VVPATs) and Op Scans (VVPBs).

If NYPIRG would take a position against DREs and for PB/OS, they might be able to get something done. But so far, they have not. Either they are not election experts, or they are more concerned with poll worker training. But even THAT would favor PB/OS over DREs.

[feelthebreeze]

12. At the city meeting , this fellow from NYPIRG did just that...

He spoke against the DRE's and in favor of PB/OS quite loudly and aggressively in his testimony to the commissioners for the city. He was there because he is not being given the attention they need and deserve up in Albany. He was very concerned about the input that ES&S is having on the regs. In fact they:ES&S, even showed up at a state meeting with information on their requests for regs that no one else had seen or given info about. From the way things were said in his testimony, it was as if the fix is in and it is already decided that ES&S will get the contract for the State. He was speaking at the city meeting as a way to get support for this dilemma.

[Bill Bored]

13. Which meeting was this?

I've been to 2 City Council hearings: 9/23 and 11/21.
Are you talking about those, or BoE meetings?

Neal Rosenstein of NYPIRG had not taken a position on machine type in either of the above meetings, but if he has now, and it's anti-DRE, that's great!

BTW, the above meetings are on NYC Ch 74 Cable TV a few weeks after they actually take place.

Also, see this:

<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=402160&mesg_id=402160>

and this:

http://villagevoice.com/news/0548,murphy,70447,5.html

[FogerRox]

14. BIll- call Avante-- they are VERY OPEN to regular folks calling up

WE had 2 of our task force go for a visit at the factory, The 2 guys were invited to take pictures of the VOte trackker DRE w/printer with the case off -- I posted some of those pics @ DU- maybe 4 months ago--

[Bill Bored]

15. Not a huge fan of DREs Roj but if they haven't thought of trying for

certification in NY, I doubt a regular guy like me would be able to convince them. It should be no-brainer at this point since NO machines have been certified here yet. Why don't you tell 'em?
And tell 'em we're a "paper ballot state" too!

[FogerRox]

16. I found Avante and Liberty were both open to Activists support

I think a

regular guy would push them

over the edge-- let them know you would support an opscan ballot reader being certified in NY.

you might be pleasantly surprised

[onthebench]

17. Avante has been trying in NY for 4 years

The problem is of focus for such a small company. They can not devote the resources to any one state. They need to have a lobbyist. That is the only way that they can get the ear of the assemblymen and senators. They need someone in Albany all of the time.

[Bill Bored]

18. However, at this point, it's up the State BoE to certify

and then up to individual counties to buy. Assembly members and Senators have dropped the ball.

Avante should certainly at least be able to lobby in NYC once they have been state certified. It's much closer than Albany and it's a huge market. Nassau, Suffolk and Westchester are a stone's throw from there. That's most of the voters in the state!

[onthebench]

19. I wish it was that easy

I have been there. The state officials are always there in the background whispering in their ears. In 2002 there was a chance but there was some internal problems in the city BOE and their leadership changed. Lobbying is a 24/7 job that I do not think that Avante is ready to commit. I wish that it was easier.

[FogerRox]

20. "Nassau, Suffolk and Westchester are a stone's throw from there.

Very good point-- getting your foot in the door in one market (NYC) is certainly a good way to get consideration in the larger market-- ie -- the whole state.