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EIEV Exit Poll shows reluctant GOP responder but not enough to explain Dem 7% higher than reported

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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 09:09 AM
Original message
EIEV Exit Poll shows reluctant GOP responder but not enough to explain Dem 7% higher than reported
Edited on Wed Nov-29-06 09:10 AM by papau
This is just getting started, and work is being done to accually quantify the reluntant GOP responder effect, but the interesting thing to me was the fact that even where the Dem won, the exit poll seemed to indicate the margib rather than being say 1%, should have been reported as 8%. No doubt part of this is due to the reluctant GOP responder, but not nearly enough to make a fraud assumption unlikely(read about the central office "working on the final numbers so they could not give out photo copies of the raw data as reported to them"). Seems exit polls do work to detect fraud - if large enough relative to the voting population.


http://electionintegrity.googlegroups.com/web/EI+EVEP+Operations+report+061125.pdf?gda=H2qJ9VoAAADNEvMuFI2kxJITVDxIXJwmC1vZ6eNCpYJg-WLfQ1WIBRVJVT3hrgKrn_IySc8la3KSQPqrAdgTWV44idjWfVlNNkou5-XdSxrnUr5tn8Q9wouZlWRJeUWGpPDAX33A_Eo

The Inaugural Election Integrity Election Verification Exit Poll
Operations (Phase One) Report

Steve Freeman Saturday, November 18, 2006
Director, Election Integrity Revised (slightly): November 25, 2006

<snip>
The pollsters who conducted the 2004 national media exit poll attributed the 2004 exit poll discrepancy to non-response bias, in particular to selection bias among interviewers who were younger and more highly educated (see “Evaluation of Edison/Mitofsky Election System 2004” pages 43-47). In Chapter 5 of “Was the 2004 US Presidential Election Stolen: Exit Polls, Election Fraud and the Official Count” (Seven Stories Press, 2006), Joel Bleifuss and I systematically refute these attributions, but nevertheless, they have been accepted by most casual observers as explanatory.

In future efforts, we hope to rigorously study so-called “interviewer effects” through recruitment of a more diverse population of interviewers. The wide variation in our interviewer response rates in this election may also afford us a basis for analyzing interviewer effects. <snip>

6th Congressional District, Lois Murphy conceded the race the morning after election day when she reportedly trailed Murphy by 3,000 votes (1.2%) with 100% of precincts counted (but prior to counting of provisional ballots).6 Our initial calculations indicate a disparity of eight percentage points as compared to these unofficial numbers, meaning that our raw polling data indicated that Murphy won the race by nearly 7%. Election Integrity counsels candidates to never concede close races before forensic analysis is done on the results.

The other Democrats did very well in the election, easily wining the Senate, Gubernatorial and House 7th district races. In our polls, however, they did much better yet. For the Montgomery and Chester County precincts, there are disparities between the count and exit poll results in all four races of between five and eight percentage points.

Five to eight percentage points is a large disparity. This was a carefully done survey in which we eliminated most of the potential sources of error. Moreover, response rates were high and our pollsters took their tasks very seriously. In his two decades of exit polling, Ken Warren has only observed a disparity of this magnitude in one race, and in that race, mass scale fraud had been subsequently uncovered. And the disparity we observed is apparently consistent with those found by the media-funded National Exit Poll and Zogby’s post election telephone poll.

On the other hand, debriefings with our interviewers indicated some doubt about the representativeness of their samples. Several interviewers had response rates in the 30% range or lower (we had a few who legitimately seemed up around 90%!), and several of the interviewers with lower participation rates subjectively felt that Republicans were disproportionately avoiding participation. In most shifts, a small number of those approached, typically one or two per shift, reacted antagonistically, for example questioning the interviewers’ or organizers’ motives. In a few of these cases, the complainant overtly accused us of having “liberal” motives or otherwise indicated Republican preferences, e.g., proceeding to speak with Republican candidates or committeemen. The Republican party has been openly critical of exit polls (in the U.S.), especially since the 2004 election. To at least some small extent, such rhetoric has poisoned the ability to obtain a purely random sample of respondents.

I observed interviewers both unobtrusively and openly, and although the interviewers’ performance and effort were in all cases outstanding, I did observe one subtle breech of protocol: voters who had not been selected sometimes asked to fill out a questionnaire and sometimes were in fact permitted to do so. In debriefings, it was clear that these were not isolated occurrences, although neither does it seem to have been all that widespread. Even if every antagonistic non-respondent were Republican and every non-selected respondent a Democrat, it could not account for much of the disparity. On the other hand these cases may be just the visible portion of a larger phenomenon. Many people were thrilled that we were doing what we were doing, and expressed disgust or contempt at the idea of electronic voting and suspicion of the election process. These people invariably agreed to participate; and we know from other polls that Democrats are, in general, far more concerned about e-voting and election fraud than Republican


<snip>See Stephanie Singer’s blog at www.electionintegrity.org . Astonished and frustrated by this key missing data, I called the Delaware County Board of Elections on Friday afternoon, November 17, 2006, and asked for myself if I could have the precinct tabulations. I was told that the director, Laureen Hagan, was out to lunch, but her assistant Regina said that I could have these numbers but I would have to go into their office. She couldn’t give it to over phone, fax, etc… because someone “might make a mistake.” I said that was OK, but she insisted I would have to come in. I called Stephanie (who lives closer to that office). She expressed some doubt, so I called again to make sure; I was told that neither Laureen nor Regina was there, but another woman named Lorraine absolutely assured me that if someone came there, he or she could obtain the numbers. So Stephanie went. But Laureen, the director, who by then returned from lunch, said she could not allow it. When I told her that we had been assured that we could get the numbers if we went to their office,,she said that she would have permitted it, but couldn’t because she was at that time “working with the numbers.” I asked what that meant, and she said that she was working towards certification, that there was a certification deadline and that she was “working with the book and needed to work with the numbers.” I asked again what that meant and why Stephanie getting the unofficial precinct tallies would interfere with that. She said that she just told me, but that I didn’t like her answer… Etc…

<snip>
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
1. Only in America are exit polls with great disparity to vote count roundly ignored
by the corporate media, but if they occurred in another country, the exact same media would be calling for Americans to take notice.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. It would depend on the nature of the disparity. Look at Mexico.
BushCo shoved Calderon in there and damn the evidence.
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bullimiami Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 09:17 AM
Response to Original message
2. why would republican voters be significantly more reluctant to respond than
democratic ones?

i would think that a republican, in a republican area, who voted democratic would be more reluctant than a 'proud to be' republican.

this seems to me to be one of those creations of the republican coverup machine.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 11:37 PM
Response to Reply #2
6. The reason is unknown - but Dems doing this poll noticed the effect - but
the effect was no where near enough to cause the difference.
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Well, unfortunately
this isn't a valid inference, although it's not, as far as I can see, one that Freeman makes.

What he did find evidence for was non-response bias. However, you cannot conclude that "there was not enough to make a difference) because you can only measure the bit of the effect that you can observe.

You don't know whether it's the tip of the iceberg or the whole iceberg. All you know is that there's an iceberg.

Freeman does make this point.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. We disagree as to what he wrote - a statement that even if all non-responders were GOP it did not
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 06:15 AM by papau
explain away the gap seemed to be there.

On page 6

"Even if every antagonistic non-respondent were Republican and every non-selected respondent a Democrat, it could not account for much of the disparity. On the other hand these cases may be just the visible portion of a larger phenomenon."

Feeble - am I reading the above incorrectly?

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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. in context that s. seems to refer
specifically to overtly antagonistic non-respondents on the one hand and non-selected volunteers on the other. The number of non-respondents would be much larger than the number of overtly antagonistic non-respondents. That would be Freeman's implication in going on to say that antagonism and volunteerism might be "just the visible portion of a larger phenomenon." Or not. The non-respondents aren't telling us.

BTW, could you fix the typo in your last s.? Febble doesn't mind, I'm sure.
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
15. Good point
I assumed he was specifically counting antagonistic non-respondents. It would depend how many non-antagonistic non-respondents there also were (i.e. people who were selected but politely refused).

Freeman does make the excellent point (immediately after he makes the point you cite) that:

On the other hand these cases may be just the visible portion of a larger phenomenon. Many people were thrilled that we were doing what we were doing, and expressed disgust or contempt at the idea of electronic voting and suspicion of the election process. These people invariably agreed to participate; and we know from other polls that Democrats are, in general, far more concerned about e-voting and election fraud than Republicans.


But certainly you can put conservative upper limits to the proportion of Democrats by assuming that all non-responders were Republican and all non-selected voters were Democrats, and if that is "impossible" then the noose starts to tighten - particularly if you have been at pains to minimise the probability of selection bias (which is highly likely to have bee a problem for the NEP exit polls).
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I agree - and sorry that I did not use FEeble as instructed in the past - I
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 09:15 AM by papau
shall remember better, I hope.

:-(
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. LOL! care to review that subject header? n/t
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #17
23. I do agree with FEeble- and even yourself now and then - indeed the wiki number you said
was wrong is beginning to look wrong - even to these old eyes that perhaps are biased to believe it correct.


All over the Web is this snipet:

"The 2006 Edison-Mitofsky Exit Poll was commissioned by a consortium of major news organizations. Its conclusions were based on the responses of a very large sample, of more than 10,000 voters nationwide*, and posted at 7:07 p.m. Election Night, on the CNN website. That Exit Poll showed Democratic House candidates had out-polled Republicans by 55.0 percent to 43.5 percent – an 11.5 percent margin – in the total vote for the U.S. House, sometimes referred to as the “generic” vote.

By contrast, the election results showed Democratic House candidates won 52.7 percent of the vote to 45.1 percent for Republican candidates, producing a 7.6 percent margin in the total vote for the U.S. House — 3.9 percent less than the Edison-Mitofsky poll. This discrepancy, far beyond the poll’s +/- 1 percent margin of error, has less than a one in 10,000 likelihood of occurring by chance."

And of course the above agrees with your estimate of a 7% gap in the recorded vote.

In any case I look forward to the next Steve Freeman report!

:-)
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-01-06 06:55 AM
Response to Reply #23
25. even if it were "actually" correct, how would Wikipedia know?
That's what puzzles me about TIA's use of the Wikipedia figure. As I recall, he reported some vote counts that showed a single-digit gap, and this one with a much larger gap, and didn't seem to try to explain the discrepancy. Discrepancies of millions of votes in actual vote counts potentially could be much more revealing than arguments over exit polls! I don't know why TIA is so incurious about his data.
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Febble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. It's OK!
My initials are FEBL, so when I signed up to my first forum (Daily Kos) I typed "Febble" because I was a bit nervous of typing my full name, and I wanted something pronounceable I could remember, then I was stuck with it. I don't think I'm feeble though, whatever else I may be!
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 09:45 AM
Response to Original message
3. I find it hard to believe that there was some grand conspiracy when some
very contradictory things happened.

For one thing, why would "they" steal PA-06 and let Mike Fitzpatrick's seat, a seat we never led in independent polling, slip through their fingers? How is it that "they" could not steal the Missouri Senate race, the Virginia Senate race, or Montana? They only needed one to hold the Senate. All of those seats were decided by very narrow margins. How is it that "they" allowed upset victories versus Jim Leach, Jeb Bradley, Jim Gutknecht, J.D. Hayworth, Richard Pombo, and Clay Shaw(particularly in Florida), when pre-election polling was at best iffy in all of those races?

If there is some kind of conspiracy, it is a random and non-sensical one.
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SharonAnn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. The voting machine corruption wasn't a large enough % to pull it off.
For example.

They anticipated they would need to switch 2% of the votes and it turns out they would've needed to switch 3%. That type of thing.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-29-06 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. It does not appear to be nationwide - just pockets of fraud that do swing elections in
those areas.

It is non-sensical perhaps - but effective in making a 57 to 41 congressional vote edge turn into only a small edge in the House.
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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 12:16 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. no 57 to 41 vote edge
Call me crazy, but when the Wikipedia figures are out of line with every other source I've ever seen, I figure Wikipedia is wrong. Anyone can edit it.

The official totals are almost arbitrary at the margins, because quite a few races are uncontested, and some of those appear on the ballot while others don't. Probably around Dems +6 to +7.

Of course this has no bearing on whether pockets of fraud swung individual seats.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:21 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. In other words - no link to data that says wikipedia is wrong - but you feel it is
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 06:21 AM by papau
wrong - ???? Any spreadsheet of all 435 races should be easy to summarize - seems hard to get wrong.

and:
"The official totals are almost arbitrary at the margins, because quite a few races are uncontested, and some of those appear on the ballot while others don't." -

how is one elected without appearing on the ballot? Are there not races where the GOP is not contested?

I am not following the logic - ?

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OnTheOtherHand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 06:33 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. the problem is...
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 06:59 AM by OnTheOtherHand
I actually have copies of two such spreadsheets -- one based on Washington Post figures, another on CNN figures. They broadly agree, but they don't match. Worse, where data are missing, it isn't immediately clear whether no votes were cast in the race, or whether these particular sources just didn't bother to collect the data because the races were uncontested. That would affect the percentages disproportionately -- at the margins.

"how is one elected without appearing on the ballot? Are there not races where the GOP is not contested?"

In some states, if you win the primary of your party and no opponent qualifies to run against you, you are considered elected. (I haven't read the state codes to see exactly how they describe or rationalize that arrangement.)

Yes, both Democrats and Republicans ran uncontested, although many more Democrats than Republicans did. You could think of this as a logical concomitant of a decade of Republican gerrymandering: the Republicans carve out heavily Democratic 'sacrifice zones' and don't bother to field candidates in all of them. (Actually, I have no idea whether that story is true -- I have never examined trends in uncontested seats. Someone probably has, but life is short.)

EDIT TO ADD: For the sake of having something to link to, here are some totals qualitatively similar to the ones I'm looking at: http://www.thegreenpapers.com/G06/HouseVoteByParty.phtml And here is a possible source of the Wikipedia numbers: http://gadflyer.com/flytrap/index.php?Week=200647#3157 It's premature to try to figure out the "right" numbers because many of the totals are unofficial.
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papau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. Thanks for the alternative sources - I look forward to the final numbers
I had seen the http://gadflyer.com but not the greenpapers,com.

I'd be surprised - and wrong about the election not reflecting that actual split - if the spread is 6 to 7 points - but I've been wrong in the past. We shall see.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. I've seen the +6 or +7 number on CQ and elsewhere. Wikipedia is the only
source I've seen with that number.
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Sancho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
9. I've had a number of "discussions" with others about the available data...
Rater effects can be detected, measured, and corrected:

<"Detecting and Measuring Rater Effects Using Many-Facet Rasch Measurement: Part I and II", Carol Myford (Univ. Illnois) and Edward Wolfe (Mich. State)>

Actually, there has been plenty of opportunity for election officials and pollsters to look for fraud if they wanted to...and access to poll data and election results has gotten more restrictive instead of more transparent as the problems have piled up.

Let's keep demanding access to all the data and keep on eliminating the "errors".

Here in Florida, the election superviors are so incompetent that they can't even manipulate the elections without screwing up the hack! We can launch a space shuttle and can't count!

Freeman's book was good reading!

:argh:
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
24. While it may be true that some SOEs are incompetent, they might have someone working for them
who know enough to swing some votes; its clear that a lot of votes have been swung by manipulation in some counties in Florida over the last decade.
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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
21. Virtually all polls showed Murphy was ahead by about 5%, why did she concede so early without
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 11:05 PM by philb
even auditing the results????
Anyone should know that there is always a huge amount of glitches, manipulation, etc. in most close elections.

were the counties in her race
Montgomery, Chester, Lehigh, Berks ?

2006 EIRS reports (summary)

Montgomery County Touch Screen switching from Dems to Repubs on straight party voting, machines not working in some precincts, many voters unable to vote, some didn’t receive requested Absentee B

Chester County very long lines, lots of people unable to vote due to long wait,
Opti-scan scanners broken in several precincts , unable to scan ballots, told to leave in basket for scanning later, Repub materials in voting area but not Dems

Lehigh voter reported machine problem/vote likely not counted, Independent indicated not allowed to vote due to no party

Berks polling place received wrong polling books, very late opening, voters unable to vote

opti-scan scanners were not working on election day throughout the country, and similar seemingly insecure system for
leaving ballots to be scanned later; can the pollworkers be trusted to not lose such ballots and properly scan them later?

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philb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-30-06 11:17 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. In close race like Murphy race, the election can be swung by broken machines/long lines in
Edited on Thu Nov-30-06 11:44 PM by philb
precincts that are either heavily Dem or heavily Repub
This seems to have been the determining factor in several races.


likewise, if the reported problem of straight Dem ticket voters having some of votes go to Repubs was widespread,
as it was in 2004 in several states, this could swing a close race

lots of problems in 2004
www.flcv.com/pennsum.html


EIRS reports for 2006
http://eirs.cs.net:8080/EIRS_WEB/Reporting/displayUSReport.do
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