Is it a little naive to believe there will be an Ohio recount?

[spotbird]

Green Party Claims Ohio Ballot Recount a 'Certainty'

James Lee, Blackwell's spokesman, Monday dismissed the idea that a recount of Ohio's presidential voting was a certainty, as claimed by Cobb.

A recount is impossible until the results are certified, which Lee estimated would happen around Dec. 6. And separate recount requests must be filed with each county in Ohio, Lee added.

Lee acknowledged that "with any election there are going to be individuals who are disappointed with the outcome.

"In our litigious society," Lee added, "certainly people are not nearly as shy as they used to be about going to the courts to remedy whatever in life they're disappointed with."

http://www.townhall.com/news/politics/200411/POL20041116a.shtml

First, it reads to me that Lee thinks there won't be enough time for a recount. In fact, I'll be stunned if Blackwell certifies in time for there to be a recount.

Second, Lee complains about the litigious nature of society when no one who wants a recount has talked about bringing suit. Now this is the same claim made against the Democrats in 2000 before Bush sued Gore to stop the count. Who plans to bring suit this year?

Maybe it is time to demand recounts at the county level as those results are certified.

[Mike Nelson]

1. WHAT VOTERGATE?

It looks like the media is going to let the clock run out on this story. A few passing refs is all VOTERGATE gets -- and it's treated like #1) a silly story or #2) a so-what-we-can't-do-anything-about-it story.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

2. Are we being FLEECED?

What is happening with blackboxvoting? Have they -or ARE they-doing anything of value with the millions in donations they have received? I havent seen their site up in several days, and yesterday BevHArris was on DU griping about a rather insignificant issue given what she is SUPPOSED to be working on.

And what is with this Cobb request for another $100,000 for "mobilizing costs"? I am getting very worried that we are all being set up or taken advantage of or something, and that NOTHING is going to happen...

[ParanoidPat]

7. Who are you and what have you done?

Where the hell do you get that "millions in donations" figure from? Where do you get off bitching about what Bev, Andy and Kathleen Wynne are doing in Florida right now or what the rest of us are doing to support their efforts?

Before you make unfounded allegations about other DUers perhaps you should troll around the board some more and find out what's up.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

10. huh?

Didn't realize it sounded like I was "bitching". I am discouraged. I was asking for some reassurance. I dont even know anything agout "Andy" and "Kathleen Wynne". I have no clue what unfounded allegations you speak of.

What have I done? I have donated money to bbv, Cobb, Dem party, and DU, since election day. I have been writing letters and emailing dozens of letters. I created a damn good poster, printed 100 copies, and pasted them on kiosks and bulletin boards in my city.

BTW, You didn't answer any of my questions.

[O.M.B.inOhio]

17. EoR's poster; and anybody in North Canton?

Eowyn:
Are you posters online somewhere for others to print? Also, I wonder whether they can be adapted as a lure for a Diebold whistleblower. (I'd pitch in for a reward greater tham the 100K that I've seen out there). Diebold's coporate HQ is in North Canton(below), though I don't know whether programmers or architects of rigging are there (or indeed whether they are corrupt at all). But what of the idea to print something in local papers, use radio, or plaster area with posters? I'm desperate for a way to get a human being fessing up about those optical scan machines, be the odd data due to error, hacking, rigging, or an act of divine will.

Diebold, Incorporated
5995 Mayfair Road
P.O. Box 3077
North Canton, Ohio USA 44720-8077)

[eowyn_of_rohan]

64. poster not online

I said it was damn good, which was partly out of defensiveness, because it is "ok". I actually scanned my favorite sweatshirt for this project. The old thing is probably 25 years old and has the classic image of the big fish about to be eaten by a group of little fish, with the word "Organize!" above it.

Had "WAS THIS ELECTION STOLEN?" as the header, then gave some info, inc website addresses and asked for help to raise awareness and pressure the media and "what is left of our government" . ;)

I was charged up and in "mad as hell and not going to take it anymore" mode.

[spotbird]

9. I'm sure that BBV is doing everything humanly possible.

There is no question in my mind about the commitment or credibility of any of those working to make this happen. My concern is that they are in the big leagues and they won't know what hit them.

100K for mobilization costs seems a little low to me, to get this done right will take millions. But miracles happen I suppose, and this is the only hope we have.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

16. I hope you are right

I am just getting very nervous...

[Name removed]

57. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[On the Road]

3. Now the Strategy Becomes Clear

Tie it up in the courts (Florida) or in governmental processes (Ohio) until the clock runs out and they can say "oh, it's too late."

One of the most indefensible parts of the Bush v Gore ruling was that the Dec 18 "safe haven" date was the last possible day to change the outcome by recount. Looks like that argument will come into play again. I have difficulty believing that the courts will uphold it, but you never know.

[truehawk]

4. Counties are supposed to have their totals in by Nov 17

According to an an election official that has been posting on the Democratic Blog for a year.

I have read several times that the deadline for Ohio to certify it's vote is Dec 1.

[spotbird]

5. So on November 18th the recounts should be filed at the county

level.

This article crystallized in my mind why the Republicans are remaining silent on this issue. They plan to obstruct the recount until it is another footnote.

[truehawk]

19. You can't file for a recount until the totals are certified

[truehawk]

20. Link

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=203&topic_id=54675&mesg_id=54675

[CaptAhab]

6. Yes

As much as I'd like to be optimistic, and hope there will be a recount, I find it absurd to believe that Rove hasn't thought of that possibility, or that the Ohio Repugnicans are not prepared to stall and block any recount effort. We should never forget that these are radical, power-hungry zealots who will stop at nothing to gain power. I wouldn't be at all surprised if they use some homeland security bullshit to prevent recounts.

The Kerry lawyers should be working on eliminating legal obstacles to the recount effort, and not on the technical details of electronic voting machines, as someone was suggesting on another thread.

[spotbird]

8. But Kerry's lawyers are supposedly only there to see the

rest of the vote is counted.

The GLIBs don't have anywhere near the money or power to enforce the law.

[Name removed]

56. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ParanoidPat]

65. Hey! Have you seen this?

LOL! Volusia County election records just got put on lockdown :evilgrin:

[CaptAhab]

11. Kick

So is there a counter-strategy to Blackwell's stalling the recounts?

[Zeebo]

12. What happens when...

the Blackwell Republicans stall, and the vote gets certified before significant recounts start? Does all recounting stop. I'm worried they will stall in a way that no significant recount happens at all. Does or will the recount effort go on beyond the electoral college vote? Same question for New Hampshire and Nader.

[BlueCaliDem]

18. I Believe that I've Read, that Recounting In Ohio Cannot Begin...

...unless the race was too close to call--which then would allow any candidate to challenge the count and request immediate recount, or unless, in absence of the former, the votes have been counted, and certified, which is, in Ohio's case, December 1st, I believe.

[Nederland]

13. No

But it is naive to believe it will change the outcome.

[goodhue]

15. good answer

you beat me to it

[goodhue]

14. No.

But it is naive to believe that recount will change outcome.

[RealityCheck04]

21. There won't be a recount --- please read

Hello everybody,

I've been a "lurker" here on DU and Kos for awhile now. I've never posted before because, frankly, I was just too darn lazy to register :) Still, the events of the last couple of weeks have left me little recourse. I'm currently a law student, so I understand how things work in the legal world. And I cannot stand idly by and watch the good and decent people on this board throw their money away for a recount that will never happen. Friends, you're being taken to the cleaners by some very clever people playing with your emotions. It's horrible, and I won't let it happen. The vocal minority on this board can berate me and "troll-rate" me and everything else --- it's okay, I can take it. What I can't take is hearing people say they're giving their last 50 dollars to a lost cause. Please read my full explanation before responding.

1) There is NO guaranteed recount in Ohio. Under Ohio law, as Blackwell's underling states, there is no guarantee that a recount will occur unless the final count puts the candidates within .25 percent of one another. With Bush currently ahead by a full 2 percent, no automatic recount will occur. However, as you all well know, the law does allow any losing candidate to ASK for a recount if they have the funds to pay for it. What Cobb HASN'T told you is that Ohio is not obligated to grant this request for a recount. Instead, Cobb has to apply county-by-county for a recount, with each county having its own say on the matter. What does that mean? It means that a) ALL Republican counties will say no, b) ALL Democratic counties that have a decisive margin of victory will say no, and c) ALL Democratic counties that are just too lazy to do the recount will say no. That leaves only the Ohio counties that are run by very liberal Democrats who will possibly, maybe, approve the recount. In other words, only a few counties will hold a recount, not nearly enough to overturn the statewide results.

2) The timing of the recount. So let's say that the best case scenario occurs, and a bunch of big Democratic Ohio counties say yes to Cobb's recount request! Then what happens? Well, the recount can't start until after the vote is certified. According to Blackwell's people, that's not going to happen until December 6th. The electors vote on December 13th, but they are CERTIFIED on December 7th. That's it. Even if the recount does go forward in a few counties, which wouldn't change anything anyway, the GOP slate of electors will have been chosen under Ohio state law.

3) No one will know. So there you have it: a couple of Ohio counties will be doing a recount in early December, AFTER the electors for Bush have been certified and vote, and even if a few irregularities are found on the ground, no one outside of DU, Kos, and Air America will know. The media has already decided this is a non-story because there just aren't enough votes to change the results.

But wait, you say? What about Cobb and the LP candidate? Why would they be pursuing this? They know the law, don't they? You're darn right they do. And they also know how easy it's been to fleece the folks on these Democratic message boards. And now they're trying to do it again. An "extra" 100 grand they need now? Please.

These charlatans don't want a Kerry presidency. They don't want a "fair" vote count. They want your money. Why? Minor party candidates almost always end up with a great deal of campaign debt that they have a hard time paying off. That's what happened to Pat Buchanan after his runs in the '90s --- and that's probably the reason he made his pathetic Reform Party run in 2000. After he ran a mediocre campaign that failed miserably, he was able to take those nifty federal matching funds that the Reform Party got and pay off his campaign debt from years past. Pat laughed all the way to the bank that year. This year, Cobb and friends will too. After you've contributed your hard-earned money to them, and after their recount request is rejected in most Ohio counties, they'll pay for the few counties they get and, oh well, they'll just have to pocket the rest of the cash. And there you will be, heartbroken, angry, with the money that was supposed to go for Christmas gifts paying off campaign debts. Gives you a good feeling, eh?

Finally, what about the true believers like Randi Rhodes, Bev Harris, and Keith Olbermann? They can save the cause, right? The short answer is, no. Al Franken has it right. Two journalists and Bev's state-to-state travels do not a movement make. 99 percent of the American people have decided that the election is over. If the entire Democratic Party couldn't overturn a 500-vote margin in Florida in 2000, Bev Harris is not going to be able to change a margin of several hundred thousand votes in multiple states in just three weeks. It just won't happen.

There's a reason John Kerry and Terry McAuliffe aren't saying anything about this. They know it's a quixotic quest --- a fool's errand. If there was any chance that the votes were there to elect John Kerry, he would never have conceded. But they're not. So he did. End of story.

It's good to be passionate about things. It's good to get involved. And it's wonderful to participate in a democratic system of government. But it's horrible to be a chump, and you have the power to think for yourself and resist the mob mentality that's building on these message boards. Do it for yourself.

[demodonkey]

22. And your suggestion is --???

"Move on"?

"Get over it"? (again?)

"Work toward 2008"??

Hello! If we don't somehow suceed in getting these voting problems out in the light and make some changes there won't BE a real election in 2008.

Not to mention over 200 years of democracy and over 100 years of civil and voting rights will be down the drain.

Personally, I want to VOTE in future elections, not just play video games on Diebold boxes.

[RealityCheck04]

23. Suggestion: Work toward election reform

That's a good goal. And one that recounting the few OH and NH counties will help further. But all this talk of overturning the 2004 results, of turning electors, etc, is just pie-in-the-sky that creates a mob mentality and is setting many of the folks on these boards up for heartbreak and financial ruin. So yes, work towards 2006, 2008, etc, and that includes pushing for election reform.

[mcg]

24. Back up your claims, references please, otherwise we ignore this.

If you don't provide references to back up your claims, then your post should be ignored.

Here's a link to detail on Ohio recount procedures:

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/procedures_recount01.html

What wording in the law backs up what you claim?

[RealityCheck04]

26. This is what I was using as my source

"James Lee, Blackwell's spokesman, Monday dismissed the idea that a recount of Ohio's presidential voting was a certainty, as claimed by Cobb.

A recount is impossible until the results are certified, which Lee estimated would happen around Dec. 6. And separate recount requests must be filed with each county in Ohio, Lee added."

Now if someone has additional info on the Ohio law, please post! I think Blackwell's crony probably knows the state law pretty well.

[Roger_Otip]

29. i'm not a lawyer, but to me this sounds like they have to recount

"Once the recount process is initiated, section 3515.03 compels the county Board of Elections to set a time, place, and method for the recount."
http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/procedures_recount01.html

[RealityCheck04]

33. Doing more research...

I'm going to consult with my fellow lawyer friends to dig deeper into this. There do appear to be a lot of conflicting statements in these Ohio statutes and it's time someone sorted them all out!

[mcg]

36. Sure, first you say you 'understand how things work' now you don't

[RealityCheck04]

39. I said I understand how the law works

In general. Not necessarily the specifics of every Ohio election statute, which there are thousands of pages of I'm sure! Like I said, I'm seeing conflicts in OH law, which means that there's a statute nobody's seeing somewhere that works it all out.

[mcg]

43. So you don't understand Ohio's election law.

[mcg]

32. AS IF we are going to believe anything Blackwell's croney says, you said

that you know Ohio's law well, so I'm asking you again, what wording in the law backs up your claims? This should be easy for you, since you know Ohio's law so well.

[RealityCheck04]

34. Putting words in my mouth

No expert on Ohio law --- just using my law-student head here. Like I said, I'll do a bit more research because there appears to be conflicting info in the law here and I'm sure there must be a way to sort it all out.

[mcg]

38. No, you made claims that you can't back up.

[spotbird]

45. Are there any counties where no votes were cast for

the libertarian or Green candidate?

Is that your point?

[ahyums]

25. so what you are saying is

there is absolutely no chance of a recount under any circumstances - because even if the race were tight enough to automatically trigger one there wouldn't be time. If that's the truth its completely outrageous and needs to be looked into, what justification does Blackwell have anyway for delaying the certification for so long? the results should be in by tomorrow or the day after by all accounts. Even Florida has already certified. Just because he can should really not be a sufficient excuse

[RealityCheck04]

27. No, there would be one if it were close enough

But it has to be within .25 percent to trigger a MANDATORY recount under the law. Otherwise, counties can OPTIONALLY decide to grant the request of Cobb and other losing candidates who ask for one.

[YellowDoginthehouse]

28. There is a difference in an automatic recount

and a recount requested by a losing candidate. These are two separate circumstances under most state laws, and most states provide for recount requests.

[ahyums]

30. yes but the time issue is still extremely relevant

- based on what you posted above, because Blackwell is waiting so long to certify even if it does get close enough for the automatic recount there still won't be time to conduct. Which would it seems to me suggest a serious problem in the electoral law.

[mcg]

35. Hey you, I asked for your sources, put up or shut up.

Show us what wording in Ohio's written law backs up your claims.

[Chimpanzee]

51. Where did you see that they could 'OPTIONALLY' grant a recount

[McCamy Taylor]

31. remember that not everything is as it seems...

....and not every person (or committee) posting on a message board is what he/she/it would like you believe.

I am new to DU so I cant really tell the established souls from the freeper moles, however, here are some things I have learned from other boards.

If a new person shows up and claims to be "just a plain citizen" or better yet "a housewife" but seems to have a whole lot of facts at hand and posts a whole lot about one topic in a way that might have an effect of making people do/think what the GOP wants them to do, that person is a mole.

Also, remember that the GOP wants us to feel apathetic, despairing, helpless, lost. So, if a post leaves you feeling apethetic, despairing, helpless or lost, it may well be a GOP plant.

[naderzenithnow]

46. a cousin Smirking Chimpster that loves to lurk here

I had to register to refute this freeper scum. I pulled this from here with an easy google.

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPolitics.asp?Page=%5CPolitics%5Carchive%5C200411%5CPOL20041116a.html

"The electoral votes "are certified on Dec. 7," said Jonathan Turley, a constitutional law professor at George Washington University in Washington, D.C., who is not connected to the official recount bid in Ohio.

Presidential electors (the individuals casting the electoral votes) "actually vote on Dec. 13. But those votes are not opened by Congress until Jan. 6. So there is still time to challenge the results in Ohio, as well as other close states such as New Mexico, Iowa and Nevada," Turley said. "This is not to say that a recount is likely to change the result of the election, but it is not an impossibility."

No worries. The freepers better worry.
B-)

[spotbird]

49. This might be Nader's zenith, ya never know.

The greatest worry IMO is that the Glibs won't have the firepower to defend against the onslaught. Blackwell is letting us know his strategy, but there isn't much that can be done about it.

Thanks for the post and welcome aboard.

[Pooka Fey]

42. Any presidential candidate can request a recount in Ohio.

There is an AUTOMATIC recount if the candidates are within .25%, its not required to recount. Also any 5 citizens in Ohio can request a recount if it falls within 5 days of the vote certification. My source for this is the law offices of so & so in Ohio, who specialize in election law. I don't remember their name, and I don't have time to google them. Maybe tonight I can get back to this, but I read their web page very carefully.

Freeper troll alert on the guy who is calling us all chumps.

[buddysmellgood]

47. I support these efforts because I believe it will shed more light

on a horribly flawed system. If we can prevent this bullshit from every happening again, it will be worth every penny. I have no hope that the outcome of this election will change. I am not optimistic about fixing our system for the next presidential election, but I'm going to try.

[bones_7672]

54. Point #1 stands out because of the cost

I know that Cuyahoga County (Cleveland) has has to apply for a boatload of money to pay for OT and extra manpower for the election already, and even if the Greens pay $10 a precinct, that in no way comes close to paying the cost of a recount. I can understand how even Democratic-heavy counties like Cuyahoga would be relunctant to pay for a recount if they absolutely don't have to.

[mcg]

55. How do you know this? What is your evidence?

[bones_7672]

60. sorry, no evidence, just the idea ....

.... that some Dem officials might not want to pony up the money if they don't believe a recount will make a difference. I'm not saying that this is right, but what a politico that has limited funds might think.

[Duncan]

37. The election law does not say certification first

as far as I can tell. Here is a link for the election laws:


http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/procedures_recount01.html

[ahyums]

40. I think this section is the most relevant one

It does not look to me as if the boards have got any discretion over whether the recount proceeds if it is filed in a timely manner with the correct payment and documents :


§ 3515.03 Recount; deposit required; notice; witnesses; losing candidate may stop recount

Each application for recount shall separately list each precinct as to which a recount of the votes therein is requested, and the person filing an application shall at the same time deposit with the board of elections ten dollars in currency, bank money order, bank cashier's check, or certified check for each precinct so listed in such application as security for the payment of charges for making the recount therein applied for, which charges shall be fixed by the board as provided in section 3515.07 of the Revised Code.

Upon the filing of an application, or upon declaration by the board or secretary of state that the number of votes cast in any election for the declared winning nominee, candidate, question, or issue does not exceed the number of votes cast for the defeated nominee, candidate, question, or issue, by the margins set forth in section 3515.011 of the Revised Code, the board shall promptly fix the time, method, and the place at which the recount will be made, which time shall be not later than ten days after the day upon which such application is filed or such declaration is made. If the recount involves a candidate for election to an office comprising more than one county, the director of the board shall promptly mail notice of the time and place for such recount to the board of the most populous county of the district. If the contest involves a state office, the director shall promptly notify the secretary of state of the filing for such recount.

[truehawk]

48. Vote totals have to be "Declared" before the recount can start.

Any losing nominee or candidate in a primary, general, or special election can request a recount. Also, a group of five or more voters can request a recount on a question or issue. The recount process begins by filing a written application with the Board of Elections of each county in which votes are to be recounted. R.C. 3515.01. The application must be filed within five days after the results were declared. R.C. 3515.02. The application must also list each precinct within the county where votes are to be recounted, and for each precinct a $10 deposit must be paid. R.C. 3515.03.

[ElementaryPenguin]

61. NOT the same thing as "certified."

[spotbird]

50. When is declaration made?

What is the difference between it and certification?

[truehawk]

52. I don't know, Election Lawyer Please!!!

[ElementaryPenguin]

59. You're absolutely right! Ohio law does NOT

call for certification to take place first! This is bullshit - and the Green Party should be alerted (though, one would expect that their lawyers are aware of this!) However, we should take nothing for granted - and forward this little tidbit to them!

[Duncan]

41. oops.. posted twice

[Pooka Fey]

44. Recount: YES http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/procedures_reco

This is the link to the Ohio lawyers I mentioned before.

http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/procedures_recount...

[Ice4Clark]

53. According to this link, a recount in Ohio is coming, but not

until after the election results will be certified. So, don't know how this will help Kerry but if discrepancies are shown, then maybe we can institute, no demand, a paper trail for the 2006 election.

http://www.wcpo.com/news/2004/local/11/16/recount.html

[RealityCheck04]

63. Uh-oh --- the clock will run out

All excerpts from: http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/procedures_recount_os.html

"If the nomination or the candidacy for election, or the question or issue, concerning which a recount is applied for was submitted to electors throughout the entire state, the application shall be filed within five days after the day upon which the secretary of state declares the results of such election."

At the beginning of this thread we found that Blackwell doesn't plan to finish declaring the results until Dec. 6th.

"3515.011 of the Revised Code, the board shall promptly fix the time, method, and the place at which the recount will be made, which time shall be not later than ten days after the day upon which such application is filed or such declaration is made."

So Blackwell has a maximum of 10 days to stall the recount. That means that it won't begin until Dec. 16th.

The electors vote Dec. 13th.

[Neverarepublican]

58. We are screwed

Plain and simple: We are all screwed

[googly]

62. Blackwell estimates the actual cost of recount at $1.5 million, but

the fees required up front are something like $117,000.
So, assuming Blackwell's estimate is correct (I am always suspicious of anything Blackwell says), who makes up the almost $1.4 million? Are individual counties responsible for the expense or is it state of Ohio?
If it is individual counties, can some of the poorer counties come up with the money?