Look at the *#!@&& Pollbooks!!! Everywhere!!

[truehawk]

http://www.dailykos.com/comments/2004/11/17/143318/03/17#17

Possible Proof of fraud in one (4.00 / 5)

bit of testimony. I listened to the hearings today broadcast by Pacifica. A election watcher went over to Pickaway county in Ohio to see what was going on there. She asked to see the polling books which was her right by law. These books show the signatures of all those who are authorized to vote at the polling precinct. A young worker decided to let her see the books after the watcher identified herself as having the authorization.
When the poll watcher flipped open the books, she saw that lots of people had been allowed to vote but had not signed the books. This struck her as very odd, of course, since by law people have to sign in to verify that they are authorized to vote.

Soon, the board of elections head in Pickaway came by, took the books away from her, threatened her with arrest. When the woman responded that the Elections supervisor was breaking the law, the supervisor rezponded that Ken Blackwell had just told her to take the books away from the watcher. A couple phone calls had been placed, apparently.

All the panel during the Ohio hearings was shocked by this story. These books are out there, and the signatures cannot be faked. The panel took the testimnoy and promised to follow up.

WOuldn't it be just like Karl Rove and buddies to accuse the Democrats of padding the vote with unauthorized voters, while all the while planning to pad the rural vote in places like Pickaway?

[truehawk]

1. Regardless of the voting method, people have to sign to vote

There can not be more legal votes than the number of signatures in the poll book, plus the number of absentee ballots, plus the number of provisional ballots.

If there are then it is proof of fraud.

[truehawk]

62. IN EVERY STATE!!! They padded AT LEAST 30 states

Lool at TRUTHISALL's AND ALTHECAT'S numbers

[truehawk]

122. Please keep kicked, some very good info wayyy down thread

[BlueDog2u]

2. Kick!

[Carolab]

3. Alert Cobb and Badnarik

AND the DNC

IMMEDIATELY!

[Eloriel]

35. I've sent the info on to

hedda_foil.

[ahyums]

4. it would certainly fit their profile

they're all accusing Democrats of things that they deliberately do. The most obvious one I can think of is claiming Kerry was running a campaign based on fear when it was blindingly obvious that that was their strategy. It should be possible to check this though surely? The people in the books have to be real people - they must be traceable

[jdog]

5. Kick!

sorry I'm new - is that all you have to do to get something moved up because it's important. This sounds significant!

[merh]

27. Welcome to DU, jdog and yes

simply type kick - that keeps the thread alive. Thank you for kicking it, it is important.

Welcome to DU :hi: be careful, it is very addicting! enjoy.

[DELUSIONAL]

6. Thank GOD-dog -- the sign in books -- the sign in books

When Randi Rhodes described her experience of voting on the touch screen voting machines she said she SIGNED IN before voting on the touch screen computer black boxes.

I brought this up -- shortly after the election --

This should be standard practice in every precinct all over the US -- sign in before vote -- and you sign the outside of the envelope for absentee ballots.

So the sign in books should be locked down -- this is where the numbers will be verified!!!!!!!!!!

[shakerbaker]

17. Suppression was

clearly part of Rove's plan for Ohio after listening to the testimony of the Ohio hearing. Opening polls in minority and college areas after 8 or 9am so working people couldn't vote. Not enough voting booths in these areas-thus with long waits-many people had to leave due to work/school/children/elderly and handicapped unable to stand that long. And being given the run around from precinct to precinct. How can this be allowed to happen?? Justice has to prevail.
They should be arrested for treason.

And today they amend the constitution again for Delay.How soon will it be before there are no more elections. It must be stopped NOW!!!

[roseBudd]

40. We need a civil rights hero to speak out

I nominate Judge Nathaniel Jones

[buddysmellgood]

63. Think of it. This is the ultimate "There is no Santa Claus" only it's

THERE IS NO DEMOCRACY. You are absolutely right. We need to get serious about revising and enforcing our election law. It's like fighting the Revolution all over again. I can't believe we have to fight for our right to vote in 2004. It is treason. Depriving someone of their right to vote is perhaps the most fundamentally unAmerican activity possible.

[99Pancakes]

80. Revolution

Yes! This is the mentality I have had since Nov. 2 That you and I and all in DU are on the cutting edge of this (return) Revolution. I had dreams of the colonists fighting the red coats. Funny how, in my waking life, the Repukes are now the Red States, instead of the Red Coats. Hmmmmmmmm.....revolutionaries stilling seeing red.

[DELUSIONAL]

7. Kick

[DELUSIONAL]

8. Kick

[Birthday]

9. Kick

:grr:

[jdog]

10. Link?

Truehawk: Is this hearing available anywhere on the web?

[shakerbaker]

19. http://www.theneighborhoodnetwork.org/Video/Vote/Vote.html

In 3 parts

[CAcyclist]

11. But How Could She Tell They Had Voted IF They Hadn't

signed the books? Did she say how she knew? Because I thought the signature was the only evidence of voting but I never paid much attention so maybe I missed what the precinct workers do.

[lostnfound]

67. Can anyone answer this question? nt

[tridim]

12. The next person that says to me, "There's no proof of fraud"

Gets a slap upside the head.

Not only do we have several smoking guns, we also have the bullet holes in the dying body of Democracy.

[jdog]

13. Here's some info..

http://www.btlonline.org/btl112604.html#2hed

still looking for more

[GetTheRightVote]

14. I believe, oh yes I believe in ............ Fraud in Ohio

After a first hand experience of how much the representatives at these polling locations really go out of their way to make every vote count, lol, I am extremely happy to see that many of the under lying reasons for the fraud are finally coming into the light of day. Thank you Ohio from sea to shining sea.

[jdog]

15. Like Bev Harris' polling tape issue

Someone on KOS was comparing this to the polling tape issue Bev raised in Florida

[New Earth]

16. am i only one that thinks that...

Kenneth Blackwell did a REALLY BAD JOB at trying to steal the election for Bush?

[jdog]

18. So if more people voted than signed the book....

...doesn't anybody routinely DOUBLE CHECK THIS STUFF???? Without a recount? Isn't that just good business????

[jdog]

20. I mean JEEZ!!!!!!

[truehawk]

21. We will need an handwriting expert next.

CAn you see them getting writers cramp now?

[txindy]

45. No, you're definitely not the only one who thinks that

Poor Kenny needed a Jeb to guide him and connect all those pesky dots for him. :eyes: That's pathetic, Ken, really.

:hi:

[DoYouEverWonder]

116. Jeb has a lot more experience in this area

He's already stolen 2 major elections. Everything was already in place to make the 3rd one a piece of cake.

[truehawk]

60. Hell, it was always good enough before

I tried to point out precincts that showed more votes than voters, and African American precincts that inexplicably went Republican in 1994, when we used punchcards tabulated in on a central tabulator.

I contacted the Party, wrote the LA Times and heard NOTHING..NOTHING
NOT ONE DAMN THING!!

NO, come to think of it, I was told that "both sides do it".

But, maybe since I have never been in a BOE in Lousianna or Chicago, I have never seen evidence that OUR side does it!!!

[DELUSIONAL]

37. The proof is in the poll sign in books -- & forensic audits --

There are several ways to check -- or verify. One is to use the poll sign in books -- and sample the people -- question them --who did they vote for. This would be like a delayed exit poll -- and this would take money -- the people would be chosen on a strictly random basis and then each person would have to be contacted -- either by phone or in person.

The article below is very important and everyone who is interested in the integrity of the vote must read this. Some of the questions by people at DU wouldn't be asked if only everyone would read the article below. And I don't give a damn if it is the whole article -- I doubt very much that the author or the owner of the website would scream copyright -- they want this information OUT THERE. And DU is OUT THERE.


http://www.zogby.com/Soundbites/ReadClips.dbm?ID=10385
Votergate 2004; We Don't Need Paper to Prove Fraud, But We Do Need Money and Leadership, NOW.

Since last Tuesday there has been a justifiable uproar about the major differences between the exit polls in Ohio and Florida and the actual results. Democrats and Republicans, who both saw the same exit polls that showed an electoral landslide in favor of Kerry, have confirmed this. Investigative reporter Bob Parry confirmed from his sources that the Bush campaign was convinced they were going to lose. George H. W. Bush also confirmed this in an interview with The Today Show. So why have the exit polls been so wrong in the last two elections? It is clear that there must have been manipulation in the voting machines. While there's been a lot of talk of problems with not having paper trails, computer fraud is uncovered most of the time without paper trails.

As a former C.P.A and auditor, I have used statistical sampling throughout my career with great confidence. With electronic record keeping, it's easy to create a program to falsify the books. But there are ways to uncover that. Auditors have developed statistical ways to cut right through corruption in companies. You don't even need a paper trail. These statistical approaches can be used with almost 100% accuracy to uncover fraud.

With the votergate 2004 it's a numbers game just like it is with corporate accounting, even easier. All you're talking about is one number-- total votes for each candidate.

There's a huge difference between polling what WILL happen and polling something that has already happened. The reliability of polling something that has already happened is highly reliable vs. predictive polls, like Gallup or Zogby, which is very risky. The reliability can be, not plus or minus 4 percent as we see with predictive poplls, but rather a much more reliable plus or minus one half or one tenth of one percent with exit polls, because those are based on asking people who already voted. I would even say that if the exit polling were done in the key precincts of Florida and Ohio, which it was, then these results should be practically “bullet proof.”

It is important that people know how accurate random sampling of historical events can be in order for them to understand how unlikely it is that the exit polls were wrong. So if you want to fight the battle correctly, you must get more statisticians and forensic accountants involved as well as the lawyers. These statisticians can show with great credibility the probability of manipulation within the computer programs used for counting the ballots. They do this kind of work all the time to uncover fraud based upon computer manipulation in commercial and corporate activities. And these types of expert analyses are admissible in a court of law. The problem with all of this is determining who is going to fund such an investigation. Where will the money come from? Perhaps the Kerry/Edwards campaign fund has some surplus that can be used. It is possible that the DNC has some excess funds. How about the 527s and PACs who spent millions on ineffective political ads, coming up with a few million? In addition, who is going to lead the process of getting this done? This kind of an effort requires solidarity along with an organized coordinated effort. It's easy to come up with the forensic and technical people to get this done, but we need a strong leader and solidarity. Leadership and funding-- these are the two real challenges that must be dealt with in the coming days. We have a Watergate story here that could give the media a post election explosive news story that could make the 2000 Florida vote debacle look like small potatoes. We need to get the media to see that votergate 2004 is huge news and we need to quickly fund the investigation and get Democratic leaders behind it.

Sheldon Drobny is CPA and Venture Capitalist and co-founder of Air America Radio.

(11/9/2004)
- By Sheldon Drobny, Op-Ed News

[CAcyclist]

73. That doesn't answer my question

Whoops, you weren't trying to answer my question. But my question remains.

"There are several ways to check -- or verify. One is to use the poll sign in books -- and sample the people -- question them --who did they vote for. This would be like a delayed exit poll -- and this would take money -- the people would be chosen on a strictly random basis and then each person would have to be contacted -- either by phone or in person."

This person said she knew that people voted who hadn't signed the pollbooks.

My question is: How would she know just by looking?

I just don't want to get all excited about something that isn't probable.

[juajen]

77. Wasn't she just saying there were more votes than signatures, i. e.

illegal votes.

[CAcyclist]

78. If she had, *that* would make sense, but she didn't:

"When the poll watcher flipped open the books, she saw that lots of people had been allowed to vote but had not signed the books. This struck her as very odd, of course, since by law people have to sign in to verify that they are authorized to vote."

So, what I want to know is, how could she tell , just by looking at the books, that people who had not signed the book had been allowed to vote? Is there a pollworker on this blog who would know if there is some other mark that is made ?

[truehawk]

90. Several Instances of Poll book Irregualrities.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-30.htm

Werner Lange, a pastor from Youngstown, Ohio, who said in part:


“In precincts 1 A and 5 G, voting as Hillman Elementary School, which is a predominantly African American community, there were woefully insufficient number of voting machines in three precincts. I was told that the standard was to have one voting machine per 100 registered voters. Precinct A had 750 registered voters. Precinct G had 690. There should have been 14 voting machines at this site. There were only 6, three per precinct, less than 50 percent of the standard. This caused an enormous bottleneck among voters who had to wait a very, very long time to vote, many of them giving up in frustration and leaving. . . . I estimate, by the way, that an estimated loss of over 8,000 votes from the African American community in the City of Youngstown alone, with its 84 precincts, were lost due to insufficient voting machines, and that would translate to some 7,000 votes lost for John Kerry for President in Youngstown alone. . . .”

“Just yesterday I went to the Trumbull Board of Elections in northeast Ohio, I wanted to review their precinct logs so I could continue my investigation. This was denied. I was told by the Board of Elections official that I could not see them until after the official vote was given.”
Marion Brown, Columbus:


“I am here on behalf of a friend. My friend came to my home very upset while she was away standing four hours in the voting, her husband passed away. The funeral was on yesterday, November 13th, at 2:00. Perhaps had she not stood so long in the line, she may have been able to save her husband.”
Victoria Parks:


“In Pickaway County, oh, my goodness, in Pickaway County, I entered there, I was shown a table, 53 poll books were plunked down in front of my. I noticed there were no signature on file in any of the poll books, in any of the poll books, and furthermore, a minute later the director of the Board of Elections of Pickaway County came into the room and snatched the books away from me and said you cannot look at these books. I said are you aware that what you are doing is against the law? She said I have been on the phone with the Secretary of State and he has instructed me to take these books away and you cannot see them. I paraphrase very slightly here. She took them away. I was persona non grata. I did not want to risk arrest, and I left. . . . There were no signatures, and furthermore, the writing in the book seemed to have been written in the same hand, because that is a requirement.”
Boyd Mitchell, Columbus:


“What I saw was voter intimidation in the form of city employees that were sent in to stop illegal parking. Now, in Driving Park Rec Center there are less than 50 legal parking spots, and there were literally hundreds and hundreds of voters there, and I estimated at least 70 percent of the people were illegally parked in the grass around the perimeter of the Driving Park Rec Center, and two city employees drove up in a city truck and said that they had been sent there to stop illegal parking, and they went so far as to harass at least a couple of voters that I saw, and when they were talking to us, they were kind. But when they didn't realize we were overhearing them talking to voters, they were trying to keep people from parking where they were parking. They went so far as to set up some cones, trying to block people from getting into a grassy area...”

“I calculated that I maybe saw about 20 percent of the people that left Driving Park D and C, I personally saw and talked to about 20 percent of them as they left the poll between 12:30 and 8 p.m. And I saw 15 people who left because the line was too long. The lines inside were anywhere from 2 1/2 to 5 hours. Most everybody said 4 hours, and I saw at least 15 people who did not vote, and I heard a gentleman who was earlier making some mathematical calculations, well, if this is going on across town, and, you know, in a precinct where it was going so heavily for Kerry, and me only seeing 20 percent of the people coming out, I saw 15. We could just do the math and extrapolate that out into a huge number of people who might have voted had they had a chance.”
Joe Popich (entered into the record copies of the Perry County Board of Election poll book):


“There are a bunch of irregularities in this log book, but the most blatant irregularity would be the fact that there are 360 signatures in this book. There are 33 people who voted absentee ballot at this precinct, for a total of 393 votes that should be attributed to that precinct. However, the Board of Elections is attributing 96 more votes to that precinct than what this log book reflects.”

[BlueDog2u]

117. In the Poll Books used in Baltimore

You sign a slip of paper, and the poll worker checks off a box in the poll book.

[truehawk]

83. Everyone has to sign the poll book, or someone has to sign it for

them.

The signatures have to be able to be compared with the voter's registeration signature.

If for some reason the person can not sign the poll book, they can make their mark and then another person can initial the mark and sign as a witness.

I don't know of ANY situation where it is okay for a person to vote at the polls and not have to have it noted in the poll book.

[CAcyclist]

86. Still doesn't answer my question

Maybe I'm being dense. But I'd like to figure this out. As I understand it, the poll book is the same book that I see everytime I vote which has all the registered voters in it. Of course, there's going to be voters' names who haven't signed - because they haven't voted.Every time I vote, there's lots of people who haven't signed but that's because they haven't voted.

What I want to know is, how can a person walk up and look at a pollbook and know that some of those unsigned ones are people who voted as opposed to people who simply haven't voted?

[Igel]

111. The only way

that she could have definitively said there weren't enough signatures in the pollbook is if there were two running tallies of the number of voters: one that listed the number of votes cast (say, read off the machines) and the other a running tally of the signatures.

I've seen precisely this kind of parallel tallying kept in NY state; not in Los Angeles or Houston.

Otherwise, she would have had to count the signatures, and had access to some reading from the machine(s). I suppose if there was a huge difference, she could have formed a rough and ready estimate, but that's basically a kind of guess.

[CAcyclist]

113. Okay, thank you.

I hadn't seen that, but then I've never looked for it.

[Sapphire]

118. odd

When my husband and I voted (In MA) neither one of us was asked to sign anything we gave our address then names and they gave us the ballot which we put into the counting machine after we voted.


FYI; This was my very FIRST time voting, i had just registered the yr previous.

[senegal1]

93. Kick

[zann725]

126. Kick! Kick! Kick!

:kick:

[fearnobush]

22. Kick it

[jhgatiss]

23. Is there anyone in Ohio...

a lawyer perhaps that would back us up on this? We need to start going after these books... trying to get copies if possible!

[jdog]

25. They're broadcasting the hearing now...

http://www.pacifica.org/

[jhgatiss]

28. Yeah that's the one from Saturday...

I saw the video archives of it somewhere. I was at the one Monday night for awhile. It sounded like pretty much the same pattern: fewer machines in democratic areas, electronic malfunctions, people harrassed and forced to do provisionals, poor organization, not enough poll workers, rinse, wash, repeat....

All important enough for NEXT time but it does nothing about NOW and that's what I want to help with!

[goclark]

24. Rove method of operation is always

to DO exactly what he accuses his opponent of doing.

[indigo11153]

26. Better hurry

my experience is that they don't keep those sign-in sheets around very long.
BTW, If I was looking for fraud this would be the first place to look. Do sign-in sheets match number of recorded votes?

[jdog]

29. This is that hearing

But j h gattiss this is the hearing truehawk was referring to at the top of the thread

[truehawk]

30. It looks like Ohio Law requires them to be kept for 2 years

Pollbooks, poll lists or signature pollbooks, tally sheets, 2,266

summary statements, and other records and returns of an election 2,267

51



delivered to it from polling places shall be carefully preserved 2,268

by the board for two years after the day of the election in which 2,269

they were used, and shall thereupon be disposed of by said board 2,270

as wastepaper in such manner as said board orders. 2,271

[jdog]

31. Sweet!

:bounce:

[indigo11153]

32. way to go

Ohio! sweet indeed.:evilgrin:

[ParanoidPat]

49. Well if you live in Texas.......

.......they're supposed to retain poll books for 22 months if a Federal office is on the ballot.

http://www.tsl.state.tx.us/slrm/recordspubs/el.html#part1

Part 1: Election Records

Retention Notes: a) RETENTION PERIODS - State law requires that many of the election records listed in this schedule be retained for the same period as that established in law for precinct election records. To avoid unnecessary repetition of the same retention period, the codes RP-1 and RP-2 will be used in the retention column of this schedule to indicate that the record noted is governed by the following minimum retention periods, as applicable:

RP-1: General, special, and primary elections that do not involve a federal office - 60 days after election day. (By law - Election Code, Section 66.058(a).}

RP-2: General, special, and primary elections that do involve a federal office - 22 months after election day. {By law - Election Code, Section 66.058(g).}

If, at the expiration of the retention period for either type, an election contest or a criminal investigation or proceeding in connection with an election to which the records pertain is pending, the records must be preserved until the contest, investigation, or proceeding is completed and the judgment, if any, becomes final. {By law - Election Code, Section 1.013.}

A record whose retention period is given as RP-1 or RP-2 is exempt from the destruction request requirement.

b) AUTHORITY OF THIS SCHEDULE - This schedule applies to and is binding upon county clerks, county tax assessor-collectors, county election administrators, election clerks in other local governments, and all other officials or employees of a local government who have custody of or maintain records of elections or voter registration. Many of the retention periods established in the Texas Election Code also apply to county executive committees of political parties who conduct their own primaries. These committees are not bound, however, by the destruction notice and records scheduling requirements of the Local

[truehawk]

33. kick

[consciousobjector]

34. Kick

:kick:

[truehawk]

36. Kick

[shelley806]

38. Kick!

[truehawk]

39. kick

[Baja Margie]

41. kick

[silvershadow]

42. what if we organized a massive investigation of the poll books

ourselves. Have people in every suspect precinct? If they are public records they can't stop us can they?

[truehawk]

55. We should be able to file Freedom of Information Act Requests for them

These are public records and are used to update registeration lists to show who is currently active.

[truehawk]

56. We need a team to go to every county

I have been trying to get to view the pollbooks in South Carolina, or at least find out HOW MANY PEOPLE ARE REGISTERED in each precinct, which so far I have been unable to do.

The BOE told me over the phone last week that they were just "too busy, try next week".

[loudsue]

43. The Media IS the problem!!!

The media CANNOT report this, because they are one of the major players in the fraud!!! The six major media companies that own 90% of the "NEWS" in the United States are run by rabid, zealous, criminal right wing extremists. They wouldn't care if this story was the biggest story of the millineum! (Much less, the decade.) This story WILL NOT BE TOLD to the masses in the United States, who the media have successfully kept TOTALLY IN THE DARK for the better part of 20 years.

I'm beginning to believe that we're going to all be eating off dirt floors before the revolution starts to take hold....and even then, there will be hold-outs: "true believers", if you will.

I don't know where this can go, because it will get quashed, no matter how much information comes out about the voting fraud.

You're forgetting: We're all tinfoilhat conspiracy theorists to them. They've made sure of it.

:kick::kick::kick:

[MileHiStealth]

47. Can you list those companies and a little about their owners ??

Got a right wing buddy that keeps throwing that
"liberal media" shit at me.

[truehawk]

61. Richard Melon Scaife, Rupert Murdock, the Rev Moon

All come to mind off the top of my head

[crickets]

108. Myth of the Liberal Media

Hope this helps -

What's Wrong with the News?
http://www.fair.org/media-woes/media-woes.html

The "Fairness Doctrine"
http://www.savagestupidity.com/fairness-doctrine.html

Censored 2005: The Top 25 Censored Media Stories of 2003-2004
http://www.projectcensored.org/publications/2005/index.html

Media Watch Special Report - December 2, 2002 (FCC deregulation and media consolidation)
http://www.buzzflash.com/mediawatch/2002/10/28_FCC.html

The Media Ownership Chart
http://www.mediachannel.org/ownership/front.shtml#chart


Well met, MileHiStealth! :toast:

[indigo11153]

48. You are right but

maybe we are looking at this the wrong way. This thread is right on. We need to check as many poll books as possible and we need to make our efforts local. Maybe we don't need the national press or the national attention. Maybe we just have to fix one state and it's media. Put all our efforts there. I vote Ohio.

[jsamuel]

44. Completely agree + WE NEED VIDEO CAMERAS IN EVERY COUNTY'S ELECTION OFFICE

If they are covering up, they are doing it now. They will do just what happened in Volusia. They will be sloppy and they will leave things around. I call on people to grab their video cameras and go to your county's election office and see what is going on. If you see anything suspicious, tape it. This is the only way we could ever dream of documenting a coverup of the votes...

Things to look for
- extra ballots laying around
- voter tapes laying around
- trash bins filled with voting records
- county officials driving cars with mysterious boxes
- memos

NOW GO, THE DEMS WILL NOT DO IT FOR US!


There are only a couple dozen counties in Ohio and a few dozen in Florida. That would be less than 100 people with video cameras. THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE NORMAL PEOPLE! No one gets paid, this is about us fighting back.

WE ARE THE ONLY ONES TO DO THIS!

Anybody with me?!

[truehawk]

57. I'm trying

I need to get a friend with a video camera.

[jsamuel]

74. Awesome!!!

[tandem5]

46. kick

[Dilligent]

50. I don't see how this could happen.

I worked the polls in Ohio for a couple of years but not for this election. Our precinct had four poll workers, 2 Dems & 2 Reps. I looked up the names when people came in and had them sign. I gave their name to the 2 book keepers(1 each party) They recorded the name by the appropriate ballot number. All 3 books were reconciled constantly since they had to match the number on the ballots at the end of the day. The other poll worker gave out the ballots. It is state law there had to be a representative of both parties there at all times. Lunch was even scheduled around this premise. In order for this to happen both parties would have had to have been in on it.

[fliesincircles]

53. How were absentees handled?

Were there names designated as already voting absentee? If someone voted absentee, then went to the polls, would the poll workers know? Or would that have to be reconciled later?

[On the Road]

71. Both Parties Were in on It?

Provided it happened during voting hours. Once the polls closed, who had possession of the books?

The most likely scenario for fraud is in situations where the local government is controlled by Republicans and there are a large number of Democrats, at least in certain polling places. In this case, extra ballots could be created and counted after hours and voters names marked off the book. It may be that names were simply crossed off without a signature since that would be more easily detectable and would involve forgery.

[glitch]

123. Party doesn't mean much to moles, remember Theresa LePore? nt

[Cronus Protagonist]

51. Oooh I want this one to be true.,

I mean I wish it never happend, but since it did....

[truehawk]

58. Bloody Ballots!! IT IS TRUE!!

Has been true.

[Woody Box]

52. This might explain the "ballots exceeding registered voters" issue

In case I'm wrong, tell me, otherwise I'll take a closer look at that.

[jdog]

54. kick

[truehawk]

59. In Republican precincts they can't just switch totals

To pad in a Republican Precinct they have to add votes, and they depend on low turnout to keep it from being totally obvious.

But if the turnout is high and there are a substantial number of absentee ballots, they risk a more votes than voters anomaly, then they have to "loose" some ballots, or have totals that won't match.

[buddysmellgood]

66. kick

kick

[paritom]

64. kick

I guess the Republicans tried every trick in the book - and a few new ones.

[Riceman1974]

65. Will someone please explain to me...

How Kerry will be inaugurated on Jan. 20?

Florida has already certified. That state is done. Kerry's only "chance" is Ohio. But how will Kerry make up the 133,000 vote deficit in Ohio?

Here are the facts:

1. Provisional ballots - There are 155,000 prov. ballots. We're already reading reports that 10%-40% of these ballots are being thrown out, depending on the county. You have to assume at least 20% of these will be thrown out, taking that 155,000 down to 125,000. And these ballots are spread pretty evenly throughout the state (meaning, the prov. ballots are roughly equal to 1%-2% of the total vote per county).

2. Spoiled ballots - There are 92,000 "spoiled" ballots, meaning there is no clear vote for President. These are the infamous punch-card ballots. These will be counted only during the recount, which will happen AFTER the vote is certified by Ohio on Dec. 6. Contrary to Florida, Ohio has very strict standards for what counts as a vote with these ballots. The "chad" must be separated (perforated?)in 2 places for it to count. 1 chad or "dimples" will not count. Based on these rules, you have to assume at least 10% of these will be thrown out, taking that 92,000 down to 83,000.

125,000 + 83,000 = 208,000
Bush margin = 133,000 (136,000 minus the 3,000 mistake votes he got in that one county)

By my math, Kerry needs to take 82.2% of these prov. and spoiled ballots to win (171,000 to 37,000 = 134,000 plus for Kerry), assuming even the recount is finished before Dec. 13.

How in the hell is Kerry gonna take 82% of these, when these votes are spread throughout the state, a state that basically went 50-50?

[jdog]

68. Your analysis assumes

those figures are legit. Doesn't this thread draw all that into question?

[truehawk]

69. The provisionals were overwelmingly from Democratic Counties

Go to go, but there was a concerted effort to make Democrats have to use provisionals.

[truehawk]

70. Listen to the hearings in the link upthread

[democratforlife]

91. Don't forget expatriate votes

They vote 70% democrat on average - depending on which country they're in. I tried to get a number from the Ohio SoS office on how many expatriate votes came in before the deadline but they wouldn't give it to me. Anyway we have more ballots to work with than just absentee and provisionals.

[mikelewis]

98. Making the margin in Ohio - the absentee votes

The problem isn't where to find votes for Kerry, the solution is where to challenge votes for Bush.

I have been documenting over the past few days, several counties with Registration levels exceeding 100% of the voting age population. I have also been looking into absentee ballots as a possibility as to how the votes swung to Bush.

In Cuyahoga County, a county that went overwhelmingly for Kerry we find some very alarming irregularities. I chose to research Cuyahoga for a specific reason. Because it was so heavily for Kerry that any manipulation of the system would be very appearant. Such as, excessively high voter registration in 37 of the 67 precincts in this county. In these 37 precincts, voter registration exceeds the voting age population. In the case of Cuyahoga Heights, (where I went to school btw) the registration level was 131% of the persons of voting age.

The way I determined the number of eligible Persons of Voting Age (PAV) was to go to the U.S. census bureau and pull the estimates for the individual cities and then compared them to the number of registered voters on the Cuyahoga County Board of Election's website. In at least 8 cases, these registration levels exceeded 120% of the PAV's.

Now the exit poll data suggests that Kerry won the state 52.1% to Bush 47.9% but the results give the state to Bush by 51%. So what could have tipped the scales in a primarily punch ballot state? What condition that was not guaged in the Ohio exit poll data could have had an impact on this election? The absentee vote could have had such an effect. So I again went to Cuyahoga County and found that there was a 7% gain in Bush votes in absentee voters as compared to the way the people who went to the polls voted. This is an unusually high shift.

The total number of votes cast at the polls was 574,475 votes where:
Kerry Received 66.7% of the vote or 383,446 votes
Bush Received 32.7% of the vote or 187,854 votes

The total number of absentee votes cast was 80,624 where:
Kerry Received 61.8% of the absentee vote or 49,816 votes
Bush Received 34.4% of the absentee vote or 27,770 votes

So I surmise that the possibility exists that the absentee voters swung this election. Now whether or not this is by fraud remains to be seen but it gives us a much smaller pool of voters to challenge and we can do so based upon the impossibly high number of registered voters. This pool of voters broke more for Bush in Cuyahoga County so the odds that the absentee ballots aided Bush across the state are very high.

Furthermore, in several counties I have found that the entire county is has registered voters in excess of 100% PAV. This would again give us opportunity for legal challenge of the registration data. Fortunately, the majority of these counties voted republican. In fact only 2 of them, Mahoning (101.4%) and Franklin(103.7%) voted for Kerry and I believe we will find more votes for Kerry in these counties than less. The number that voted for Bush so far is 7. I have only checked 14 counties so far. As I dig deeper, I assume the number will be about half since the registered total for the state based on PAV is 93.5%. Roughly 44 counties with unusually high registration and high absentee votes and no informtion should alarm many people.

The final piece that has convinced me that I am correct is the testimony from Pickaway County of the poll books. What could explain the unsigned poll books is absentee voters. See, if a person votes absentee, they are recorded in the book as voting so that if the person should show up at the polls, they will not vote twice. They would not have signed the books. The fact that she notes so many in such a short amount of time that she would become alarmed indicates that a large amount of absentee ballots were cast. The State is making a point as to not release the data on the absentee ballots. To date, we have only one county, Cuyahoga, that has released the results of the absentee vote in its canvass report and in that report the 7% shift is noted.

While everyone is concerned with finding fraud in the electronic voting machines, we must remember that we use very few of them and they have been very heavily scrutinized. While the possibility for fraud exists with these machines they could not have swung this election on thier own. Voter suppression could also have had an impact but not have guaranteed the election which I am sure they would want to do. The only explanation that maintains the validity of the exit polls and would provide a "ligitimate" ballot count would be the absentee vote. We have not given sufficient attention to absentee ballots which have not been guaged as to thier effectiveness in securing this election and do not have adequate safeguards to protect against fraud.

I beleive that we must put out a demand to have this data released and it allowed to be studied by people much more qualified than I who can verify anomolies in these 600,000 or so votes. If we can see a 7% shift towards Bush in Cuyahoga then what is the shift in other counties that voted heavily towards Bush at the polls. A recount of the votes would only confirm the election for Bush, a challenge must be made against these absentee votes and we can legally question them based on the high registration levels. In many of the smaller counties, there are only 8 to 10 thousand absentee votes to challenge. Should we find people who voted who are not eligible to vote in these counties or state, we can use this to challenge these votes statewide.

I am quite sure, we will find a number of these ballots cast by voters who were either not eligible to vote in this election or voted without knowing they voted. How many of these absentee ballots were forced to vote provisionally? How many were thrown out as spoiled ballots? This data must be known and publically reviewed by trusted experts. I believe this is how Kerry will be inaugurated on Jan. 20th.

Sincerely,
Michael Lewis

[Woody Box]

107. kick

Yeah, Mike,

I think you are on the right track.

I've followed your stuff in the other thread. It might well be the best explanation for the "irregularities".

[musette_sf]

72. Kick!!

:kick:

[RedEagle]

75. And Diebold is trying to sneak in an all-electronic poll book

Just imagine what could be done with that.

FYI- I believe in some states you can't contest or recount an election until certain procedures are in place and one may be certification- I think.

And how do you certify a fraud on a fraudulent system?

[truehawk]

76. SC?

One of the ladies that works at the Board of Elections told me today that some South Carolina Counties are under contest

Anyone know anything about this????

[Fabrizio]

79. Kicky, kick, kick!

:kick:

My first posting.

This is fun.

:kick:

[lamp_shade]

81. kick..

[hippiegranny]

82. If that kind of thing happened all over

that could very well explain the 8 million votes the murdering monkey supposedly gained out of thin air.

[LiberalUprising]

84. kick

[Pooka Fey]

85. kick - a - doodle - doo

[enough]

87. As a poll worker.

This story really raises up my radar. Another kick.

[truehawk]

88. MORE from the Ohio Hearings!!!!!

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1118-30.htm

Werner Lange, a pastor from Youngstown, Ohio, who said in part:


“In precincts 1 A and 5 G, voting as Hillman Elementary School, which is a predominantly African American community, there were woefully insufficient number of voting machines in three precincts. I was told that the standard was to have one voting machine per 100 registered voters. Precinct A had 750 registered voters. Precinct G had 690. There should have been 14 voting machines at this site. There were only 6, three per precinct, less than 50 percent of the standard. This caused an enormous bottleneck among voters who had to wait a very, very long time to vote, many of them giving up in frustration and leaving. . . . I estimate, by the way, that an estimated loss of over 8,000 votes from the African American community in the City of Youngstown alone, with its 84 precincts, were lost due to insufficient voting machines, and that would translate to some 7,000 votes lost for John Kerry for President in Youngstown alone. . . .”

“Just yesterday I went to the Trumbull Board of Elections in northeast Ohio, I wanted to review their precinct logs so I could continue my investigation. This was denied. I was told by the Board of Elections official that I could not see them until after the official vote was given.”
Marion Brown, Columbus:


“I am here on behalf of a friend. My friend came to my home very upset while she was away standing four hours in the voting, her husband passed away. The funeral was on yesterday, November 13th, at 2:00. Perhaps had she not stood so long in the line, she may have been able to save her husband.”
Victoria Parks:


“In Pickaway County, oh, my goodness, in Pickaway County, I entered there, I was shown a table, 53 poll books were plunked down in front of my. I noticed there were no signature on file in any of the poll books, in any of the poll books, and furthermore, a minute later the director of the Board of Elections of Pickaway County came into the room and snatched the books away from me and said you cannot look at these books. I said are you aware that what you are doing is against the law? She said I have been on the phone with the Secretary of State and he has instructed me to take these books away and you cannot see them. I paraphrase very slightly here. She took them away. I was persona non grata. I did not want to risk arrest, and I left. . . . There were no signatures, and furthermore, the writing in the book seemed to have been written in the same hand, because that is a requirement.”
Boyd Mitchell, Columbus:


“What I saw was voter intimidation in the form of city employees that were sent in to stop illegal parking. Now, in Driving Park Rec Center there are less than 50 legal parking spots, and there were literally hundreds and hundreds of voters there, and I estimated at least 70 percent of the people were illegally parked in the grass around the perimeter of the Driving Park Rec Center, and two city employees drove up in a city truck and said that they had been sent there to stop illegal parking, and they went so far as to harass at least a couple of voters that I saw, and when they were talking to us, they were kind. But when they didn't realize we were overhearing them talking to voters, they were trying to keep people from parking where they were parking. They went so far as to set up some cones, trying to block people from getting into a grassy area...”

“I calculated that I maybe saw about 20 percent of the people that left Driving Park D and C, I personally saw and talked to about 20 percent of them as they left the poll between 12:30 and 8 p.m. And I saw 15 people who left because the line was too long. The lines inside were anywhere from 2 1/2 to 5 hours. Most everybody said 4 hours, and I saw at least 15 people who did not vote, and I heard a gentleman who was earlier making some mathematical calculations, well, if this is going on across town, and, you know, in a precinct where it was going so heavily for Kerry, and me only seeing 20 percent of the people coming out, I saw 15. We could just do the math and extrapolate that out into a huge number of people who might have voted had they had a chance.”
Joe Popich (entered into the record copies of the Perry County Board of Election poll book):


“There are a bunch of irregularities in this log book, but the most blatant irregularity would be the fact that there are 360 signatures in this book. There are 33 people who voted absentee ballot at this precinct, for a total of 393 votes that should be attributed to that precinct. However, the Board of Elections is attributing 96 more votes to that precinct than what this log book reflects.”

[jdog]

89. KICK! Here’s what’s on our side:

Election day:
1. Computer audit trails
2. Forensic and statistical analysis.
3. Poll tapes.
4. Poll books
5. Exit polls

Research:
1. Johns Hopkins Studies
2. Univ of PA Studies
3. Univ of Cal Berkeley

What the heck do they have? A machine they’ve put in place, but EVERYONE in it knows it’s a lie! Everything these people do is based on BS. They can’t stay this course much longer, they’ve got to know that.

[truehawk]

124. Kick, View the poll books before they alter them

[sharman]

92. Use the GOTV groups

The GOTVs have name, address and phone number of every voter in swing states,as well as lists of likely Dem voters. Pick a suspicious precinct, check the poll books for all voters who signed in, and call and canvass.

I desperately want to know once and for all what really happened. This is the only grassroots way I know to get an answer.

Btw, for my money, if fraud is proven, I don't care if it's the last day of Bush's term. A fraudulently elected official cannot be allowed to hold office, whenever proven. There's precedent too, that Miami mayor who was booted out of office when his fraudulent victory was exposed in court.

[Solitaire]

94. yeah, but...

someone said they won't hold another election, because of the Constitution.

So, we get Cheney instead of Bush?

God help us all. :(

[DLnyc]

95. Canvass can expose fraud.

Yes, I think you can expose a fraudulent precinct by canvassing. You pick a precinct, get about 100 volunteers, and start interviewing. Without going into numbers here, it seems like you get a pretty sharp picture of a precinct of, say, 900 voters from 100 volunteers. Some people may lie when interviewed, but a little people skills gives you a good idea who is lying. Most of these will cross themselves up on second questioning. The key point is LOTS of volunteers! Also, it is clearly important that you picked a precinct that actually IS crooked!

Basically, the idea is a 'late' exit poll with lots of volunteers to make it economically feasible and super accurate.

I really think this could give a smoking gun, if applied to the right place.

[truehawk]

96. Absolutely could not hurt.

If we pick the right precinct where they got really sloppy I think we can find some pretty dramatic things. Especially if we turn up where we are not expected.

[ewulf]

97. This is a really good idea.

This really should be done.

What GOTV groups can we count on to help us? ACT? Local Democratic groups? I'm not sure if we could get access to the party's lists, but they are the best. I'm not sure what kind of data we can get though: we really need address (and hopefully phone number) for all voters (or all registered voters?), not just the Dems. Raw databases likely exist somewhere (in county registrar's offices at least) but I'm not sure if we could get them.

[truehawk]

101. You can buy the county list of registered voters for about 30 dollars

[Carolab]

99. The lady was right. It's ILLEGAL in Ohio to keep you from the pollbooks.

<§ 3599.16.1> § 3599.161. Prohibiting inspection of election records.

(A) The director of elections, deputy director of elections, or an employee of the board of elections designated by the director or deputy director shall be available during normal office hours to provide any person with access to the public records filed in the office of the board of elections.

(B) No director of elections, deputy director of elections, or employee of the board of elections designated by the director or deputy director shall knowingly prevent or prohibit any person from inspecting, under reasonable regulations established and posted by the board of elections, the public records filed in the office of the board of elections. Records relating to the declination of a person to register to vote and to the identity of a voter registration agency through which any particular person registered to vote are not public records for purposes of this section.

(C) Whoever violates division (B) of this section is guilty of prohibiting inspection of election records, a minor misdemeanor, and shall, upon conviction, be dismissed from his position as director of elections, deputy director of elections, or employee of the board of elections.

HISTORY: 137 v H 86 (Eff 8-26-77); 145 v S 300. Eff 1-1-95.

The effective date is set by section 3 of SB 300.


http://onlinedocs.andersonpublishing.com/oh/lpExt.dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&cp=PORC

[jsamuel]

100. Doesn't that mean Blackwell commited a crime?

[truehawk]

102. HUMMMM

Dismisssssalll
Dismissal, I LIKE IT!!!

[Carolab]

103. Not sure, because

He's not an employee of the board of elections, is he?

But the person who followed his directive is, and told the woman she couldn't see the books certainly is guilty of breaking a law.

However, since Blackwell directed the person to do so, is he not then culpable for demanding she violate the law?

To me, it seems he should be dismissed.

Here is the director of elections for Ohio. Perhaps someone should ask her how it is that Blackwell can direct this, when it is obviously against the law.

OHIO
Patricia Wolfe, Director of Elections
180 E. Broad St., 15th Floor
Columbus, OH 43215
[phone] FAX [phone]

http://www.sos.state.oh.us/sos/elections/index.html

[regularjoe]

104. Forgive my poor memory, what did Blackwell do?

Any Ohio lawyers want to pick this up?

regularjoe

[jsamuel]

105. He ordered someone to deny a woman her right to see a Poll Book

Which is a crime punishable with dismissal, jail time, and a fine.

[regularjoe]

106. Wow, how did I miss that? It was the first post in the thread.

Just too much going on for my brain.

regularjoe

[kk897]

119. Ohio signature books

I've been working with a group attempting to examine the signature books (among other data gathering efforts). I, myself, went to Union County, where, mysteriously, the BoE and County Commissioner's Office were closed during posted open hours. This was immediately following Blackwell's move to block access to these books (it came, apparently, while I was on my way to Union).

People collecting data for this group have been told that we can gain access to the signature books after the results are certified by the individual county. At the same time, lawyers consulting with the group have said that Blackwell's move and the provision he cited is not in accordance with Ohio election laws -- or, rather, that the provision he cited for his move to block access didn't apply.

Anyway, at this point, there are so many groups doing the exact same things in Ohio that the BoEs are getting flooded with requests for information.

My personal opinion is that the fraud won't be revealed in voting records, since it occurred before many voters ever got to the cast their ballots. The real crime was in supression of votes through a variety of means.

On the other hand, I think that if there is evidence in the data, one of these groups will find it. It seems like nothing's going unscrutinized. Whether Blackwell will find another creative way of blocking access to the data, I don't know... Let's keep our fingers crossed.

[Woody Box]

109. kick

kick

[PeterPan]

110. i have written to the greens

asking that an examination of the pollbooks be a part of the recount effort in ohio. i am volunteering as a green recount observer - the recount takes place in each precinct (or is it at the county level - that would be easier of course 88 counties vs. 1130 precincts) but it should be possible to have observers also examine (and if legal photograph each pollbook) evidence that could eventually prove invaluable. this is a project that MUST happen one way another before those pollbooks are destroyed - more emails to the green recount team might help

[gapower]

112. Recount?

Will they cover this kind of thing with the recount?

[truehawk]

114. Kick

[mikelewis]

115. If I could call 10,000 people in 4 days...?

...and ask them who they voted for, where they voted, if they were happy with thier voting experience blah blah blah.... Would this be of any help?


I have a telemarketing machine that I have put up on a shelf. The thing works great. I used to use it all the time but I switched back to installations so I haven't had a need for it. I would be more than happy to donate this for a time to be used to help either spread the word or do a poll. DOes anyone think this would be useful? It has 2 lines so it could cover 2 counties at the same time. You just dump the numbers in it you want it to call and it records all the responses. You can save the recording on tape or right to computer and load them on the net for everyone to hear. The thing is pretty cool. This may be stupid but I was just trying to think outside the box. I will only donate this to established and serious groups who would kow how to use it and for a period to cover the next few months until we have some sort of resolution.

Michael Lewis

[IAMREALITY]

120. I don't think any idea is a bad one

I actually have said a few times that I don't know why we haven't had a big phone effort. Not just for canvassing purposes but also for communicative purposes. I worked really hard during the campaign calling people to get out the message, and know there was a huge dem effort across the board doing this. I don't know why that has now dissipated and we are relying on media (or lack thereof) and personal word of mouth only. I have thought for some time that the first phase of our battle is communication and getting the word of fraud out. I really think all DU'rs should dedicate a few hours here and there with a massive GOTF (get out the fraud) effort by going back to their phonelists and calling as many as they can to update them on what has been developing and the facts gathered so far. Remember, WE ARE THE MEDIA.

[truehawk]

121. kick

[Carolab]

125. Well, I'm quite sure that

if I were in Ohio or Florida I'd be all over this. My state went blue and I don't think there is enough for me to investigate other than what I already have and I know there are lawyers on it (besides it is not in my immediate area of the state). If you are close by where the action is, please help in any way that you can.