Question: Does anyone believe that Kerry really thinks he lost

[saracat]

the election, and is only joining the Ohio lawsuit, in the one county to both help the GLIBS, and to keep his promise of counting every vote? ( this is not necessarily what I think, it is just a question)

[Mojambo]

1. I have no idea what he's thinking

From his actions I assume he believes that it is over, but that he wants to follow through with his commitment to see the votes counted.

[berniew1]

46. That would be mistake. He has good chance to win if process is fair.

The 93,000 uncounted votes are mostly undervotes on punch card ballots, similar to Florida in 2000. Most counties in Ohio use punch card ballots which are subject to high undervotes. Most of these are in the Urban Kerry areas. There are maps showing their distribution.
The majority of these votes when hand counted are likely to go to Kerry. Ohio has uniform rules on how to count hanging chad. That should begin soon.
With all of the indications of glitches, irregularities, mistakes, fraud, as well as these; Kerry has a good chance to overtake Bush in the recount- just based on things that have already been documented by Dr. Phillips on other threads.

[ClintCooper2003]

2. I just don't know anymore.

It just seems like he's playing it safe because he wants to run again in 2008. I must say, I've been defending Kerry against the "flip-flop" charge for months now, but he sure is waffling on this recount business.

He should realize he doesn't have a chance in 2008. He should just come out strong and call the whole election fraudulent.

[Mirwib]

40. Personally, I think he should either

1. Announce that he is going all out to prove fraud and show that he won the election; or

2. Announce that he has given up the fight.

This intermediate level of "making an announcement that he plans to fight and then doing absolutely nothing" is just plain wrong.

[Helga Scow Stern]

3. We will just have to wait and see.

In a way it is much better that we don't know what he is up to, because it throws us back on our own resources. We are too used to giving our power away, and this is all just business as usual if we are looking for someone to give it to again.

We have to wake up and realize that it is up to us. We have to regain the power we have given away for so long. Our system is so sick right now that it requires an infusion of the only thing that can save it--the people's outrage and demanding of integrity in representation. Because of all that whether or not Kerry is involved is beside the point.

Personally, I believe he is a part of this. But he cannot get involved in the same old way. This has to be from the ground up. This is a fight for much more than just the presidency!

[tavalon]

4. I wholeheartedy agree with what you're saying n/t

[saracat]

7. Well said.. I ,myself, am in watch and wait mode.

I refuse to jump to conclusions as I don't want my hopes dashed again. I am pleased about K/e joining the recount of the one county, but am not sure what if signifies. I hope it is an indication of interest and more participation to come . The same with Jesse Jackson. He appears to be acting as Kerry's surrogate and then backs off slightly. I guess I am hoping for a miracle because I don't believe that Kerry will get involved unless they have nailed a fraud case beyond a shadow of a doubt.

[jamboi]

8. Hear, hear! Well put! n/t

[sandnsea]

5. Yes I think he thinks he lost

Because there's NO EVIDENCE that fraud was committed. Yes, people were turned away from the polls. There is absolutely nothing we can do about that now. People can create all kinds of statistical charts about voting patterns, that is not evidence a machine was tampered with. The best he can do is ensure every vote that was cast is counted fairly and that's what he's doing. If anybody produced one shred of real evidence that would prove vote fraud, I'm sure he'd be all over it. The evidence just is not there and without it, there's nothing to be done.

Why are they rioting in Ukraine? Well gee. They've got film of people being BEATEN. They've got film of votes actually being SHREDDED. We don't have that.

After all this time, why do people not understand NO EVIDENCE.

[Helga Scow Stern]

9. Just because you did not experience the vote being stolen doesn't mean...

it wasn't.

You can't determine what is reality for so many people who saw and see the vote being stolen.

To tell us there is no evidence is like telling us the sun doesn't exist. It is crazy making to tell people that what they have experienced, what they know is true, didn't happen.

Just because you did not experience it does not mean it didn't happen.

It is a deeply personal matter to me that the vote was compromised.
It is my right to have my vote counted.
It is my right to know how the will of my fellow citizens is accurately reflected in the vote.

This was taken from me. Please do not tell me it didn't happen. Or better yet, prove to me that it didn't happen. Show me your unassailable evidence that I have not been robbed. I feel very ripped off. Don't tell me I was not ripped off unless you can prove it to me. Please.

[sandnsea]

12. How will a recount change that?

The voting shenanigans makes me sick. I'm not telling anybody that the way voting is conducted is fair. But there isn't any way to do that over, to make those who didn't get to vote to be able to vote. Unless you've got the names of the people in the Bush campaign, the memos or emails, a scheme to intentionally keep a certain number of people from fairly voting in order to affect the outcome, you don't have legal fraud. That's the point.

[saracat]

16. Not to be Pollyanna, we don't know what anyone has or hasn't for evidence.

I think the thing that is distressing most people is the lack of information regarding the recount. Even basic information is lacking in MSM, and the silence from the Kerry camp and the Democratic Party is deafening.I know a good prosecutor wouldn't betray his strategy but this is really tough to deal with. Many don't know whether the seemingly mixed signals they are receiving mean work behind the scenes is going on or The party's over and they don't want to tell us.

[electropop]

27. Repuke shill - ignore n/t

[JI7]

6. they did not expect the Republicans to get as high a turnout as they did

and i think that's why he probably thinks he lost.

the numbers for Kerry campaign were very good , even in places like ohio they EXCEEDED the turnout goals they set. this means they underestimated what the turnout would be for republicans.

[Helga Scow Stern]

10. Those were no Republicans waiting in those lines all day to vote.

It breaks my heart to hear people say that.

[electropop]

28. repuke shill - ignore

[msgadget]

11. Yep.

[Karenca]

13. I lean towards I think he thinks he lost

But Im not completely sure.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[txindy]

15. No, not at all

Not with those numbers both before and after the election. They made no sense.

I'm still waiting for the final outcome. As much as I'd like it to be resolved right now, I'm perfectly willing to wait until the last moment. Why? Because I really do not want to find out what disasters this admin. would set into motion if they knew they were on their way out. They'll still have two weeks before the inauguration to cause trouble for a new Kerry admin., but at least it isn't months worth of time. B*sh I deliberately created the Somalia situation to shaft Clinton, I don't want to know what B*sh Jr., a far meaner indiv. than his father, would do in a fit of rage. Two weeks is a timeframe that may constrain that a bit.

[Quakerfriend]

17. He's one smart cookie folks

And, you can bet he's thinking like a prosecutor. He wants them "in the bag" before he steps up fully.

[TexasChick]

39. Keeping my fingers crossed! Man, I hope you're right! Kerry is a

beautiful man to waste!!

[Lisabtrucking]

18. He is joining for all county's, just heard it on air america.

so it's not just that one county his lawyer said they don't want to see any county not recounted

[bleever]

19. Remember this quote from none other than Deep Throat

in "All the President's Men", posted by another DUer:

"A conspiracy like this -- the rope has to tighten slowly around everyone's neck. You build from the outer edges and you go step by step. If you shoot too high and miss, then everybody feels more secure."

;)

[ginnyinWI]

21. cool--I like it! n/t

[Cocoa]

20. that's what I think

I think it's unlikely it's anything else, and I think it's a good thing he's doing it.

[Woody Box]

22. He knew he had won after the first leaking exit poll results...

...and he knew he was not allowed to play the game further when the final "results" came in.

Politicians are familiar with exit polls. They know they are reliable.

[forintegrity]

23. Absolutely NOT

he's way too smart for that! He's been around in the government too long...I believe he knows exactly what happened!

[SoCalDemGrrl]

24. He knows the election was rigged but he also knows

we must have iron clad evidence with this gang or they will Ratherize you!

[TexasChick]

45. LOL! "Ratherize"! Poor Dan! n/t

[wrate]

25. This is what Kerry thinks: It doesn't matter what I believe, it only

matters what I can prove. That is how lawyers think, I expect.

[malatesta1137]

26. irrelevant

what he thinks and what he says is not important.

His actions are.

And so far, they have been shameful.

[seito]

29. First and foremost

He is keeping his word. Can we please acknowledge that. He said "Regardless of the outcome of this election, once all the votes are counted and believe me they WILL be counted..."

Why is he keeping his word? Because he is an honorable man. He is a man of values and integrity and he made a promise to each and every one of us.

What is he thinking about the outcome of this election? I have no idea. I hope that he is thinking of the best way to prosecute the individuals that are responsible for the crimes committed during the election. I hope that he is thinking about how best to expose the inept and corrupt systems at work in states like Ohio and Florida.

To be honest, it is really not that important to me, whether or not Kerry believes he won. What is important is the fact that he is willing to fight this fight for us, regardless of how he thinks it will turn out.

He has confirmed something I have always known in my heart. John Kerry is a man that you can trust your life with. When he gives you his word, he means to keep it. As a veteran, I tell you this, I would follow him into battle without hesitation.

[Phil Shepard]

30. Network the Networks

As we dig in for the long haul and as large numbers in my area have regrouped under various democratic and activist banners, we can seize a special opportunity. Electronic versions of "Committees of Correspondence" can coordinate and integrate diverse grassroots efforts on the left in potent new ways.

The electoral campaigns of 2004 appear to have operated largely in a top-down fashion, with most communication flowing from the top down and the campaigns discovering the virtues of moving information from the bottom up relatively late in the game. 527 groups like Move On and Democracy for America saw the need much earlier and pioneered much of the technology (customized software ensembles). But even the pioneers were slow to recognize the need for lateral communication between local groups.

Local committees of e-mail correspondence can fill this void and do it in a flexible way. By having correspondents closely involved with numerous local activist groups, timely information can keep all abreast of both actions and analyses, increase participation, and amplify the "voice" for each cause. Moreover, by having various correspondents affiliate with one or more national concerns, each new development can find its way to greater numbers of local activists at the speed of e-mail.

The response to the massive failings of the Ohio vote provides a good example. Very few people in Michigan have yet caught up with the suppressed news on this. But in Lansing, [e-mail] (the email list of the Mid Michigan Committee of Correspondence) is beginning to make up the difference and about to launch what I believe will be the first local campaign in Michigan for WE DO NOT CONCEDE.

We can even network these networks of networks. Laterally, by forming a national committee of correspondence with at least one correspondent from each local committee. Vertically, by plugging our local CC's into efforts such as the Democracy Cell Project.

There is considerable urgency to this effort. The national Republican controlled media (i.e. virtually all the national media) have already signaled their intention to cover only what Bush and Co. want covered. That will no doubt leave out most of the information concerned liberal citizens feel they need to act responsibly in the difficult days to come. The unfinished voting process in Ohio and at least several other states provides a second reason for urgency. Dozens of further reasons loom on the near horizon.

If you would like to start a similar effort in your area, please email me.

Yours in solidarity for the coming struggles,

Phil Shepard
[e-mail]

[neek]

31. I think that Kerry knows that he won

but he's too worried about politics to do more than he's doing.
I believe he is INCREDIBLY frustrated at the fraud and irregularities- I don't know how he sleeps at night!

[newyawker99]

34. Hi neek!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[neek]

32. What do people think about New Hampshire

and how the recount showed that everything was fine despite the exit poll irregularities???

[ElementaryPenguin]

33. Kerry KNEW he'd won by the exit polls & was writing his acceptance speech

And Bush knew he'd lost (as Karen Hughes has explained she told him). Bush could have conceded the way Carter did to Reagan in '80. This was going to be an electoral landslide for Kerry.

[Imajika]

35. Yes, he believes he lost....

There is NO evidence of vote fraud. We can complain about there not having been enough voting machines (or defective ones) in minority precincts but that is not fraud. It's wrong, but it is not fraud and will not have any weight in court. There are all sorts of charts and graphs being exchanged, linked and posted on the Internet (some completely goofy), but not one of them is real proof of fraud. There are conspiracy theories written and discussed here as if they were even remotely believable - I'm sorry but Wayne Madsen's series of articles are just plain ridiculous (even Keith Olberman quickly recongized this). For there to be ANY chance to change the outcome of the election, there must be REAL proof of massive voter fraud. There is no such evidence.

There are NOT enough votes for Kerry in Ohio to win. I just don't know how many times this need be said. The Kerry camp knows it full well, this is why Kerry conceded.

The idea that Kerry is sitting around waiting to pounce once his ducks are in order is just plain fantasy. Kerry's campaign is not actively pursuing recounts and investigations because he knows he did not receive enough votes to overtake Bush and win the election.

In the Ukraine there is video of people being beaten at polling stations, of buses of government workers going from station to station voting over and over again, of fraud so blatant that it literally caught on tape repeatedly. That is not the case in Ohio or anywhere else. The elections in Ukraine and Ohio are not comparable.

I see people here constantly referring to "The Fraud", as if it is a known fact that this fraud delivered Bush victory on November 2nd. Where is the REAL proof of this? There simply is zero actual evidence of this. If there were, Kerry and the entire Democratic establishment would be screaming about it night and day. Hell, many Republicans would join us. There just isn't any real evidence. Recounts are fine. Reform of the voting system is necessary. Investigating voter complaints is essential. But...none of this is going to flip the election. There simply are not enough votes in Ohio or anywhere else to make Kerry the next President.

So yes, Kerry thinks he lost....because unfortunantly, he did lose.

Imajika

[righteous1]

36. Well thought out and presented

Lots of anectdotal evidence of sporadic problems but no real indication of coordinated fraud or disenfranchisement. And anectdotal evidence is viewed like hearsay evidence in a court of law

[Laura PourMeADrink]

38. Anecdotal my ass

[righteous1]

43. Now that's a intelligent and compelling argument n/t

[Laura PourMeADrink]

48. Sorry about that - I should not have said that and I apoligize.

[righteous1]

49. received and accepted

[Laura PourMeADrink]

37. Tell that to the people of Cleveland who had record turnout

and THOUGHT the were voting for Kerry...
http://www.bradblog.com/archives/00001005.htm

[IndyPriest]

42. Evidence vs Proof

There is a HUGE amount of EVIDENCE of fraud. PROOF is what happens in a court when eveidence is shown, examined, debated, and judged. We're not at that stage, yet.

Whether proof will happen in time for the election to be overturned? Perhaps not. But staying the course to prove fraud may be more important than Kerry winning, anyway. And my bet is he knows that.

[jbnow]

47. Because proof of fraud is not overt here

Doesn't mean there is no proof. Your statement puzzles me. Since computer/ballot counting fraud is suspected...what is it we would have on tape from election day?

Charts and graphs are not proof, you are right.
Someone having a motive and method for murder isn't proof either.

Proof either way comes from investigation. Charts and graphs or motive and method are cause for suspicion, reason to start to investigate.

But I know you know that...

Perhaps there wasn't fraud but just because we don't have a tape of what is done only behind the scenes when it is done...isn't any proof of the absence of fraud or of murder.

[KoKo]

41. Sad to say...but, yeah....I do....BUT I don't think Edwards does..but what

can he do? He has to defer to Kerry on this as his "running mate."

[Turn CO Blue]

44. I don't know what he is thinking - he should tell us, then we

wouldn't have to guess. I respect and admire Kerry greatly.

OPEN QUESTION for one of Kerry's staffers who may be lurking here to pass on to Mr. Kerry:

Senator Kerry (or quite possibly President-elect Kerry), where do you stand on the election fraud issue and do you think you "lost"?

Inquiring minds want to know.

[DFLforever]

50. Yes, I believe Kerry thinks he lost

if only because he was outflanked by the Repukes in the most crucial battle of the campaign. He could count and recount OH and FL but he realizes he'll never find the votes, whether stolen or not, to win.

In terms of voter fraud, his generals prepared for the last war (2000) while the Repukes fought and won this new one (BBV).