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Has David Corn Been Hitting the Kool-Aid?

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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:01 PM
Original message
Has David Corn Been Hitting the Kool-Aid?
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 01:16 PM by Ojai Person
He seems to be trotting out MSM talking points wrt to vote fraud under The Nation's banner of respectability. Usually, this is one of my most trusted sources. We need to debunk this with intelligence by writing a well thought-out letter to the Editor. Someone has been infiltrating their water supply with sweet red powder....

More On the "Stolen Election", 11/30/04 @5:09 pm
(interesting timing on this...)
http://www.thenation.com/capitalgames/index.mhtml?bid=3&pid=2037

snip--
The emails keep pouring in. Please investigate voter fraud! Here's evidence the Republicans stole the election! We're watching YOU cover the election irregularities! A number of Americans--is the number growing?--believe George W. Bush only won the election because the voting was somehow rigged. And each day they disseminate via email what they consider to be proof--or, at the least, reasons to be suspicious. In pieces for The Nation magazine, I've noted that there is good cause to worry about the integrity of a voting system that is overseen by partisan players and that relies in part upon paperless electronic voting machines that are manufactured by companies that are led by pro-GOP executives and that refuse to reveal the computer codes they use. But I've also cautioned against declaring that the potential for abuse means the system was abused to flip the results. Exit polls that differ from reported vote counts are not necessarily proof of foul play, and statistical analyses that seem to raise questions need thorough vetting before they are waved about as signs of chicanery.
--snip

Then--put on your foil hat to keep from getting Kool-Aid infected!--
he asserts that the exit poll discrepancy is mainly due to "a former highschool math teacher named Kathy Dopp" who failed to take into account the Dixiecrat voters. Then -- David! Lay OFF THAT KOOL_AID!!--he disputes the whole notion of vote fraud using--GET THIS!!--the Cal-Tech MIT voting project and THE MIAMI HERALD!!!

He considers the Miami Herald evidence so stunning that he puts it in italics (which I can't reproduce):

snip--
Some wondered whether Florida's tally was corrupt, with one Internet site writing: "George W. Bush's vote tallies, especially in the key state of Florida, are so statistically stunning that they border on the unbelievable."

The Miami Herald last week went to see for itself whether Bush's steamroll through north Florida was legitimate. Picking three counties that fit the conspiracy-theory profile--staunchly Democratic by registration, whoppingly GOP by voting--two reporters counted more than 17,000 ballots over three days. The conclusion: no conspiracy.

The count of optical-scan ballots in Suwannee, Lafayette and Union counties showed Bush whipping John Kerry in a region where registered Democrats outnumber Republicans 3-1.

The Herald found minor differences with official results, most involving ballots that had been discarded as unreadable by optical-scan machines but in which reporters thought the voter's intent was clear.
--snip

The evidence that Corn's been hitting the Kool-Aid, or worse, keeps mounting as he dismisses the Berkeley study as by "grad students", using words like "skullduggery":

snip--
According to Florida's official vote count, Bush won by 381,000 votes--more than the total of these "ghost votes." Still, the grad student study has been hailed by election results skeptics as reason to believe skullduggery transpired. Yet other experts in statistics have not been persuaded.
--snip

(But, David, why don't you quote more of those who have?)

Now he quotes a CalTech-MIT Voting Technology Project henchman to debunk it:

snip--
Charles Stewart III, a political science professor at MIT and researcher at the Caltech/MIT Voting Technology Project, examined the data used by the Berkeley researchers and found what he calls "an interesting pattern." But, he told me, "it may not have anything to do with voting machines." He explained, "It is a baroque form of regression model they're using. Almost everyone I talk to says it looks like they were fishing for results. I would hope you'd find a lot of skeptics." Stewart pointed to two sets of precincts he examined in Palm Beach County. Both were heavily Democratic, one contained many African-Americans, the other set had but a few. It was the set with few black voters that shifted dramatically toward Bush, according to Stewart. And this movement, he said, may be unrelated to the e-voting machines. These precincts, he speculated, could have had more Jewish voters who shifted toward Bush this election.
--snip

He struggles to present the appearance of objectivity (a Nation hallmark, which makes this kind of spinning the most insidious of all) in the next paragraph:

snip--
Andrew Gelman, a professor of statistics at Columbia University, also examined the Berkeley study and found that the statistical anomalies only were significant in two counties--Broward and Palm Beach--not all of the 15 e-voting counties. On his weblog, he notes that the Berkeley researchers "make some pretty strong causal claims which I would think should be studied further, but with some skepticism." Gelman observes, "Something unusual seems to have happened in Broward and Palm Beach counties in 2004. One possibility, as suggested by is cheating." But he is quick to add, "I don't know what was going on in these counties, what else was on the ballot, etc., but an obvious alternative explanation is that, for various reasons, 3% more people in those counties preferred Bush in 2004, compared to 2000...Such a swing would be unusual (at least compared to recent history), but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen!...It would make sense to look further at Broward and Palm Beach counties, where swings happened which look unexpected compared to the other counties and compared to 2000, 1996, and 1992. But lots of unexpected things happen in elections, so we shouldn't jump to the conclusion that e-voting is related to these particular surprises." (Pollster John Zogby says that he does not believe that the "election was stolen," but he concedes it was an odd result: "51 percent of the voters gave Bush a negative approval rating; 51 percent voted for him.")
--snip

Then reference to Bev, which "seems" almost neutral (but again, quotes a Florida newspaper to subtly deride Bev for pulling tapes out of the trash):

snip--
The Berkeley study is no slam-dunk. And the-election-was-rigged activists are raising other issues regarding the Florida vote count. When Bev Harris, a prominent critic of electronic voting who runs www.blackboxvoting.org, showed up at the elections office of Volusia County--where Kerry won by 3,723 votes--in mid-November seeking poll tapes for the optical scan voting machines used during the election, she found a set of the poll tapes discarded in a garbage bag. Was this part of a cover-up? Elections Supervisor Deanie Lowe told the Daytona Beach News-Journal that these election records were backup copies destined for a shredder. Harris and others fear there is more to the tale. And today Black Box Voting sued Teresa LaPore, the elections supervisor for Palm Beach County, to force her to turn over elections records. (The group is threatening to initiate similar lawsuits against 13 other counties in Florida and up to 80 counties in Ohio.)
--snip

Clearly Corn has a big bias, for whatever reason. Otherwise, he just hasn't done his research. Where is mention of Freeman? What about the Dean of Yale Law School? Sometimes I think people at The Nation are so entrenched in bemoaning the futility of both parties that they can't see the truth when it hits them with a two-by-four.

We can't just flood them with more e-mails. This needs some insightful, well thought out responses. The email The Nation sent to their EmailNation subscribers yesterday subtly discourages any desperate replies, especially by email:

snip--
The emails keep pouring in with charges of election irregularities, and a number of Americans believe George W. Bush won the election because the voting was somehow rigged. But, as David Corn writes in Capital Games, though the voting system is shaky enough to warrant serious concern, a strong case that the election was stolen has yet to be made.

The General Accountability Office was right to agree to a request from Representative John Conyers and four other Democratic House members that it investigate election irregularities in the 2004 election. But the evidence to date is that the election results were not rigged but were produced by a flawed system.
--snip


But of course we are desperate. Our democracy is being stolen out from under us, and biased reporting like this from one of our most trusted sources only makes us all the more so. I will try and gather my wits enough to put something together, but I wish one of the more knowledgeable and intelligent among us might do so. Otherwise, I will at least need some help.


Edited to remove inadvertent embedded code? (damned Mercury retrograde!)
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PROGRESSIVE1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
1. ....
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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Why must we disparage our own
just because we have a different opinion than them. One thing i try and never forget, "Just because an opinion is not mine doesn't make it any less valid"
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #2
5. Quoting only the other side of an issue and making it look like the final
story disparages the truth.
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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
16. Who's side are you referring?
The man is stating his opinion of the facts as he sees them
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #16
24. It's not a "who's side" so much as both sides of an argument...
people who write in respected political journals are supposed to investigate both sides and report accordingly.
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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Let me know when you find that journalist
because they will be my hero
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. Right on!
I love what Bill Moyers says in his new book:

"The veteran journalist Richard Reeves was once asked...to define 'real news,' and Richard answered: 'The news you and I need to keep our freedoms.'"

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RaulVB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:18 PM
Response to Reply #25
53. Cronkite, Moyers, Hersh (n/t)
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #5
33. Corn has often been with us/and against us. Protecting one's lilvelyhood
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 07:05 PM by KoKo01
in the Media today is like what most of us are dealing with. Does that EXCUSE HIM? NO! But maybe "dreams of Russert/Matthews and others drift in their heads. Maybe they are getting E-Mails from their Brokers that the way for them to survive is to SUPPORT BUSH! We have to understand that very few of our "Journalists" on the Left and the Right today come out of a "mainstream" background. I haven't "Googled" Corn to know whether he grew up "middle class, priviledged or poor," but I do believe he went to University with the Priviledged and belongs more to the "entitled" than he does to the "mainstream" of Americans. One only has to listen to Christina Van Den Heuvel, to understand why folks in "mainstream America" tune out... The "dumbed down" educations of most today can't understand the "nuanced rhetoric" of the priviledged from our best American Universities and Private Colleges...where the stuff that Corn and others put out...immediately is sucked up by their fellow graduates as an "In the KNOW" inside the Beltway mentality.

Who knows...I just know..that I've been exposed to the Ivy League and the Poverty Belt/Elite Belt of the South, and lived in NYCity and have had many diverse friends and experiences. What I see today is the MSM run by Elitists...on both sides of the political spectrum.

Corn knows he can be considered "Liberal" but on THIS ELECTION/SELECTION...he chooses to go with his background...and his friends and loyalties.

THAT'S WHAT'S WRONG WITH MSM...even when it's from the LEFT today...too much inbred cloning of folks holding tight to their "turf" and not able or willing to look beyond that because their "income is at stake." We all might get to be like this in Bushes America...

I hope not..but we might..to put food on the table folks will do anything, compromise anything...until there's nothing left but what's in the toilet after the feasting. :shrug:
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
3. no MSM talking points in there
he doesn't call anyone "conspiracy theorists" nor does he call anyone any names, unlike the reckless and damaging disrespect with which the MSM treats this important story.

He also seems to be trying to include all the important evidence (you have some additional evidence -- e.g. Yale -- which Corn might address in a future column if you send it to him), again unlike the MSM which has mostly ignored the Berkeley study for example, and even ingored the Conyers/GAO action, even in stories which claimed to be addressing the fraud issue.


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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. They are "Nationized" MSM talking points.
The whole point of the article, no matter how unbiased it strives to appear, is "Move on, folks. Nothing to see here."
And even though it doesn't out and out say "conspiracy theorists" it more subtly produces the same effect with words like "each day they disseminate by email what they consider to be proof."
He obviously is judging the issue from the outside, not from being informed. He is listening to a few "experts" and is using sources like the Miami Herald to discredit more in depth research which he barely cites one instance of.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Well put.
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 01:34 PM by Minstrel Boy
The Nation was one of the left's great apologists of the Warren Commission throughout the '60s. It has long had an allergy to "conspiracy theories." And Corn's allergy is so serious, it's ridiculous.

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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #7
35. And itsn't that the same "tune" same words from "Selection 2000?" Rinse,
load, repeat, and start all over again.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
4. Ojai, hit Corn with a synopsis of the best links at DU.
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 01:55 PM by TruthIsAll
Use this list of links to DU analysis threads posted today.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x97510

You can send him some probability threads. This is one I did today which is a simple quick summary.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x97201

And let him take the DU exit poll quiz.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x95374

Send him this from Professor Paulos, a professional mathematician who is also a great writer:
http://www.math.temple.edu/~paulos/exit.html

The Miami Herald Story- has already been debunked at DU:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=203x91921

David Corn has always stuck his head in the sand whenever there's been compelling evidence of a conspiracy. I don't trust him or Al Franken to step up to the plate. They are too cautious and just follow their marching orders.

But give it a try. And while you're at it, send the info to others.

Marie Cocco.
Paul Krugman.
Keith Olbermann - of course.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Thanks. I also need the post from yesterday about the Miami Herald
story.
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TruthIsAll Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. See my post above.
tia
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #8
12. Thanks. I'll get to it as soon as I calm down.
More and more, when I hear someone saying my experience of being robbed of a fair election didn't happen, it's like somebody's trying to steal a part of my soul.

I did experience it, as did many others, and instead of saying it didn't happen, they need to prove that the election was fair. That every vote was counted, that there was no tampering, that the exit polls are as reliable as they have always been, that everyone got to vote and have their vote counted. I am upset enough by seeing people stand out in the rain in Ohio until 3:15 AM. That alone is enough to make me not trust this election. How dare anyone say we don't have a right to a fair election that does not make us doubt the integrity of our democracy. How dare anyone disparage us for raising questions about this! I am getting mad. I will be out on the streets before long.
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Senator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:30 PM
Response to Original message
9. When writing to Corn...
...I would (and will) concentrate on his DC/Media Analstocratic "she said, she said" treatment of Bev's findings.

Bev clearly reported that election workers who were showed the records said "these are not what we signed." And that records with original signatures of witnesses cannot ever be considered "backup copies" of anything. But there's no doubt they were headed for the shredder.

But on the larger point, I still say we won't get far enough with recounts and ballot salvage. The theft occurred the old fashioned way, by suppressing minority voters.

Our mantra needs to be "Show me the Voter."

Yes, even the one who couldn't wait on a "poll-tax-line" for hours. They "count" too!

We MUST change the FRAME.

Time is running out to effect a political solution.

.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #9
41. "Show me the Voter." - Excellent
Howard, George, Noam is that you? Just kidding. Nonetheless, I humbly pay hommage to these great thinkers and American patriots. If I weren't practically destitute, I'd be at MIT just to audit classes with Ken Safir.

I read some of your blog at dailykos.com. Thank you and hats off to you!

peace from New Orleans

*****
Don't Think of an Elephant:
Know Your Values and
Frame the Debate
by
George Lakoff
http://www.democracyforamerica.com/
*****


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Woody Box Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:38 PM
Response to Original message
11. Don't trust David Corn

He's a "left gatekeeper" who just pretends to be progressive.

I remember well his smear campaign against Mike Ruppert.

Don't trust him and take this article as an opportunity to debunk his sloppy reporting.


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BlueDog2u Donating Member (692 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:42 PM
Response to Original message
13. For what its worth, after reading Mike Ruppert's
*Crossing the Rubicon,* I wouldn't trust Corn as far as I could throw him. Whether he's right or wrong about the current voting issues, his allergy to the very concept of "conspiracy" theories, and his use of that category to badger or belittle serious investigative journalists, places him on a part with the MSM for all practical purposes. His campaign against Ruppert has been despicable.
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
50. Indeed
David Corn, Norman Solomon, Chip Berlet and other participants in the "Get Ruppert" liberal cabal do not dare talk about the specifics of the evidence for complicity, so they have resorted to tangential issues, insinuations, character assassination, etc, and then have the nerve to grand stand against "the War on Iraq" when it is probable that Bush would not have had the political ability to invade Iraq if the "left gatekeepers" had bothered to help the independent journalists investigating what happened.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Bastards. n/t
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
14. The Nation has disappionted me on a number of occasions, and
Corn more often than not.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. yes...that's the truth of it...those we trusted to lead for us were often
just looking to their "own" turf.
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
15. Anyone read Jews for Buchanan?
John Nichols really blew up the Florida story in 2000. It surprises me that fellow Nation people would be so naive.
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KatieB Donating Member (431 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
17. Exit Poll data good enough for Powell to decry Ukrainian vote
But not enogh for David Corn to discredit U.S. vote - D.Corn is a Repug in disguise
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PATRICK Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:19 PM
Response to Original message
18. They find effective action
when the chips are down plain "radioactive". A losing issue they like, but give them something revolutionary outside the mainstream progressive establishment(the proudly ineffectual, most critical of impure lefties) and suddenly they are the NYT. They'd rather bash a Democrat than unseat a Rethug.

And some expect to see the Nation leading the way like some blindly loyal RW rag! Just the opposite. After the election they all loved the handwringing faultfinding with the Dems. AFTER the heat we generated got some expected RW talking point lies, they jump ship for the safe waters of intellectual mediocrity. That reaffirms why I always felt uncomfortable with the Nation and people like Hitchens especially.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. "The proudly ineffectual, most critical of impure lefties..."
Now THAT'S a talking point!
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. excellent observation on Corn et al
It is why progressives seem feeble in this country- when it starts getting hot in the kitchen the ones yearning for face-time with the Spitter or Charlie Rose melt into the arms of the status quo. I sympathize, however, because America is a consumer nation and poor people are lousy consumers which means nobody wants to hear that they had to stand in the rain for ten hours to vote, certainly not the advertisers PAYING for all that face-time. Better to show how happy poor folks are- show them breaking down the doors at Wal-Mart(even if this lousy economy cut that big anticipated profit in half.)
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brindis_desala Donating Member (866 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #18
22. excellent observation on Corn et al
It is why progressives seem feeble in this country- when it starts getting hot in the kitchen the ones yearning for face-time with the Spitter or Charlie Rose melt into the arms of the status quo. I sympathize, however, because America is a consumer nation and poor people are lousy consumers which means nobody wants to hear that they had to stand in the rain for ten hours to vote, certainly not the advertisers PAYING for all that face-time. Better to show how happy poor folks are- show them breaking down the doors at Wal-Mart(even if this lousy economy cut that big anticipated profit in half.)
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SmokingJacket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #18
31. This explains a lot.
There's a kind of self-flagellating leftyism that drives me nuts -- you just put your finger on it. Thanks.
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #18
47. The Nation would rather we wring our hands than make a fist.
It didn't begin with this election. The Nation was telling Democrats to "move on" after Kennedy's assassination, too, and accept the findings of the Warren Commission.

I'm afraid the times have been radicalized beyond its worth.

Excellent post, Patrick. Thanks.
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skids Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:47 PM
Response to Original message
20. My reply to his blog

I read the parent article with great ambivalence.

There was fraud, and when combined with disenfranchisement, it was enough to steal the election.

But there are bogus claims, as you note, being floated around the Internet by people who think they are helping.

Even some of our most valuable allies have been responsible for putting forth shakey cases, when there was other, much more viable, evidence for them to promote.

So on the one hand, I appreciate you taking the time to show those people that they need to go get themselves a better playbook, that the arguments they have been promoting are full of holes.

On the other hand, even though you mention ongoing investigations and reasons for concern, the tone of the article is disparaging, and makes it clear that you yourself have only read into the issue just far enough to clear away the undergrowth.

People who are only knee deep in an issue should not be making such sweeping rhetorical aspersions. I am as frustrated, more in fact, as most people that the wrong facts and figures have made it to the talking points used by prominant people who bravely dare to question the election. However before you "debunk" any such claim, perhaps you yourself should do a little further research into whether it is standing on the shoulders of a more sophisticated invetigation.

Just because many of these theories are not living, breathing people does not mean you should not excercise the normal journalistic approach when you hear a spurious statement. First, verify that the statement was actually said and is maintained by the *source*. To do that, you have to find the core body of research on which it was based. Admittedly, this can be difficult, given the nature of today's "Blogosphere" where distortions get more promulgation than dry, impartial research. You need to do so, though, or you are not being fair.

Of special note is the way you belittled Kathy Dopp. You shouldn't count this woman out for the count quite yet -- obviously you haven't read uscountvotes.org, or you would have known she is in this for the long run, pulling together a team that includes many of her so-called detractors, and serious about addressing and accommodating academic criticism.

Posted by: Brian S. Julin
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understandinglife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 02:51 PM
Response to Reply #20
23. Excellent and....
my simple response is:

"I Delcare The Election Invalid: Someone I do not know was prevented from voting"

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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Well said!
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Shalom Donating Member (832 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 04:04 PM
Response to Original message
28. I Share Your CornBeef !! ;-) n/t
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The Flaming Red Head Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-01-04 04:48 PM
Response to Original message
29. He was a bit snotty wasn't he
Edited on Wed Dec-01-04 04:55 PM by The Flaming Red Head
The Nation has seemed on a conservative bent for several years, now, I mean even I'm to the left of them.


Caltech/MIT Voting Technology Project has so much DoD money stuffed up their asses they probably shit Donald Rumsfeld's kids.
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SueZhope Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
30. Gregs responce to corn
A STOLEN ELECTION
THE VIEW FROM MY BLACK HELICOPTER

The Nation
I'd just stepped out of my black helicopter to read that one of my favorite journalists, David Corn, had attacked my analysis of the vote in Ohio as the stuff of "grassy knoll conspiracy theorists." ("A Stolen Election," The Nation, November 29 issue.)


http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=402&row=0
 



 
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #30
46. Thank you
Palast gave a great response.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
32. I agree-- so disheartened by Corn-- right from Nov. 4th !!
Only a few days after the election he already issued a soft debunking of those of us who thought the irregularities too widespread to ignore. Right off the bat, Nov. 4th, while most of us were still reeling, he was ready to say, "It's another four years-- this time with a legitimate win behind him-- and the prospects for George W. Bush's second term are grim." A LEGITIMATE WIN ?? Continuing the story line as though they won fair and square !!


comment | Posted November 4, 2004

Dark Days Ahead
by David Corn

It's another four years--this time with a legitimate win behind him--and the prospects for George W. Bush's second term are grim. He is stronger politically; the Democratic opposition is weaker, especially in the Senate, where the Republicans gained several seats and closed in on a filibuster-proof super-majority. Bush and the GOP demonstrated that they could locate and mobilize their voters. The Democrats--even with big-money efforts (America Coming Together and its ad-buying sister outfit raised and spent more than $200 million)--could not match them. Bush now has more power than he did before the election. He will use it. And he is likely to adopt the game plan that served him well at the start of his first term: Move fast and move hard.

http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041122&s=corn
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savistocate Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #32
37. As did Salon (editorial it looked) "oh nooo no fraud"
right out of the gate could not possibly know, gave no consideration, no thought to it. Then see BIG DELL AD to view for day pass. Criticism would dampen kill advertising ptl from some BIG corps. As Corn, it would make his life too uncomfortable to even take in the whole picture; all other factors/studies not in support of his immediate conclusion.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:24 PM
Response to Original message
36. Corn is a sell out IMHO. At crucial stages he always
does some bullshit act to fuck with people looking for the truth.

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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:40 PM
Response to Reply #36
39. what is IMHO?
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:51 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. In My Humble Opinion. Welcome to DU
:toast:
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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. Some of you folks turn like a hungry pit bull
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 08:26 PM by righteous1
I have always found David Corn to be a pretty straight shooter, sometimes hes a bit left for me, other times a bit right, but for the most part good. You need to realize 98.5% of the people in this country would argue with you that there was anything more than some minor gliches in this election. Jeeez i guess i am one of them, i have not seen compelling evidence that there was any significant anything. Definately nothing that would make me believe that the results could be changed. Corn is simply reflecting what a huge majority of people are thinking. That's the problem you'll find when you part of a tiny manority, the vast majority of people are going to disagree with you, and that does not make them bad or evil or maybe even wrong.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
44. ~~~
You said: Corn is simply reflecting what a huge majority of people are thinking.

Whenever you find that you are on the
side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect
-Mark Twain

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righteous1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #44
45. Samuel Clemens was a terrific writer
But history has documented, as a human being he was a piece of cr@p
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #45
56. Got a source for this "documentation"?
:eyes:
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #43
51. But, Corn isn't writing for Newsweek or Time or USA Today.. He's writing
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 10:56 PM by KoKo01
for what used to be known as a "Leftist Publication." That's why some of us are hopping all over him. If he was writing for the folks who read USA Today then what he wrote would be understandable...but his reputation is as a Lefty.

I should qualify that Corn wouldn't view himself as Lefty and the Nation as it is today might qualify as a little left of center/intellectual. To get real left today, one has to go to the socialist magazines.

Still neither Corn nor Nation would want to be called "mainstream."
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:47 AM
Response to Reply #43
58. Neither does it make them right. And it's 80% not 98.5%. nt
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emcguffie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 07:39 PM
Response to Original message
38. Mercury is retrograde?
When does it go direct? if you are an astrologer, what was going on in bush's chart and kerry's? And now?
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savistocate Donating Member (406 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. Another superior (heh) Corn talking point
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 08:24 PM by savistocate
perhaps quoting his selected researcher - "unexpected, yes but~
it could happen". attempt tobe based in scientific, concrete reality, with this? How convincing.

And their "belief it was _somehow_rigged" he knows there is not that vagueness to the skeptical view and investigations.
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jbnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #38
48. Let's blame Mercury!
It goes direct December 19, right on Kerry's Mars (action).

But it's still in Shadow until January 7, 2005. (When it gets back to the degree it first went retro)

This being a political and not astrological thread...I'll leave it there.
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Helga Scow Stern Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #38
54. Yes. Till 12/19 -- it means recount, re-do, resign.
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 11:27 PM by Ojai Person
Look in the Astrologer's Forum on the front page on the left for the real juicy talk about what is really going on. :hi:

And welcome!
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Oilwellian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
49. Consider this.....
Edited on Fri Dec-03-04 10:09 PM by George Oilwellian
In George Orwell's "1984," Winston Smith (the protagonist who spends his days rewriting the news at the Ministry of Truth) becomes disillusioned and wants to join the underground resistance to the Party. He eventually learns that the opposition is really an illusion maintained by the Party itself to snare discontented people such as himself.

Why do oil company money funded foundations (ie The Ford Foundation that donates to The Nation) give money to liberal alternative "left" media groups? Do these foundations want a strong left media that can expose wealth and power? Is it because many of these groups have become so bland that they aren't a threat to power and priviledge? Or is there another agenda going on?

Perhaps it is not a coincidence that some fairly conservative, establishment foundations contribute to these gatekeepers. Why would establishment wealth give to publications that want to make social change that challenges the power and priviledge of the establishment? Is the establishment really interested in funding efforts that reduce their powers (a fraction of the establishment is, perhaps)? Or do they give to groups like The Nation, knowing that they will absorb lots of dissenting energy and swallow it up in endless debates, tertiary issues and disinformation ("9/11 really was a surprise attack by evil terrorists. Honest.")
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Minstrel Boy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-03-04 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #49
55. there it is.
We need to be wary, or at least aware, of how the left gatekeepers disarm dissent. We need to ask what is being bought with the foundations' money.
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Carl Brennan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-04-04 01:02 AM
Response to Reply #49
57. Well Said. Great moniker too.
:toast:
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