Does Prayer help?

[Kiouni]

reposted from:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=209&topic_id=4904&mesg_id=4904

I just read Chopra's latest book on the after life and what it holds. The majority of the book is some what inspiring and is almost entirely based on hindu beliefs. While his intentions seem to be good he also misquotes scientists and in some sections flat-out lies!

Chopra says that prayer has been scientifically proven to help heal the sick!

"The results of such experiments have been startlingly positive." pps 246-247

But I remember reading in Richard Dawkins' "The God Delusion," that all of the studies that have been done have proven that prayer has no effect on patients, and in the studies where the patients knew they were being prayed for, actually did worse!

So how can Chopra make such a claim?

He made the study himself with duke university. (www.noetic.org ) In this study he took cardiac patients that were to have some sort of serious procedure and assigned them to one of two groups. In one group the patients were not given any sort of spiritual or alternative medical help. In the other group they were given healing touching, prayer, meditation and sensory image therapy. Guess which one did better?

This is what he based his whole belief in prayer off of!

While I can respect him for trying to bridge the gap between the religious and the right, I can't help but point out he is going in the wrong direction.

This book is basically a watered-down, fluffed-up version of Richard Dawkins "The God Delusion."

On last thing about evolution, if you have time you should read this:
http://www.sgiquarterly.org/english/Features/quarterly/...

Also the Dalai Lama's "The universe in a single atom" is an excellent example of where religion and science should intersect.

http://www.amazon.com/Universe-Single-Atom-Convergence-...

[Az]

1. Actually the best test of prayer seemed to show a slight negative effect

Most of the studies of prayer in the past have had some major problems in their execution. So some effort was put into making the largest study of prayer for heart patients bullet proof( http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060403133554.htm ). What the study found was that the patients that knew people were praying for them did slightly worse than the other groups including the control group.

[lapfog_1]

2. If Deepak is going to claim that he has scientific "proof"

that prayer helps the sick, then he needs to follow scientific methodology. He didn't in this study as described.

[no_hypocrisy]

3. I don't believe it's the prayer in itself.

I think it's the mind calming itself of worry, anxiety, fear, anger, grief, etc. and concentrating on peace and optimism. The heart rates slows, the blood pressure drops, and other physiological manifestations can be observed. The mind and the body are connected holistically. Thus, the ACT of praying, not the prayer, is restorative, like meditation and other forms of contemplation.

[Waya]

4. I think prayer helps, if........

...the person praying or being prayed for believes it helps....the mind can do amazing things.

[Az]

6. See the study I listed above

In the case where the heart patient knew that people were praying for them there was an actual decrease in the recovery rate.

[Book Lover]

12. Funny story

Jimmy Breslin went to Italy some while ago - I forget exactly why. While he was on a bus there, a man collapsed. As folks gathered around him to help, Mr Breslin asked, "Shouldn't someone get a priest?" A little incredulous, one of the folks around said, "No! You get a priest, the guy dies." What Breslin didn't understand is that in Italy, unlike here where Extreme Unction is given almost in a precautionary measure, in Italy the priest only comes once you are in all likelihood going to die. Same thing in the study you cite, I would say.

[Meshuga]

5. Prayer can help the person...

...who is praying since praying motivates us to empathize with those who are suffering. It helps by giving encouragement to the sick lifting the spirits of that person knowing that he/she has people praying and sincerely wishing him/her well.

Other than that I don't think that a "miracle" from one's prayer actually cures anyone. Otherwise religious people put god in a very difficult position.

For example, mother of Joey prays every day for her son to be cured from cancer and mother of Billy prays as often for her son to be cured from the same type of cancer at the same stage. Joey dies and Billy recovers. Why didn't God answer the prayers for both mothers even when both mothers (and kids) are good people who never harmed anyone?

[moobu2]

7. Prayer works

About as much as sticking a pin in a voodoo doll will cause injury to the person the voodoo doll represents etc... There may be some very minor psychological benefit in prayer for the superstitious believer I guess.

But there’s no such thing as magic, and that‘s what prayer is.

[BurtWorm]

8. Here's an excellent video answer to that question.

http://www.whydoesgodhateamputees.com/video.htm

[GeorgeGist]

9. If Chopra claims to know what the after life holds...

he hasn't a clue. Willful ignorance is not bliss, its b*llsh*t.

[MistressOverdone]

10. I'm pretty sure that you can find

data to give you both results. There were a number of studies for a while that seemed to show some limited benefit, and then one recently that appears to disprove that. Frankly, it seems it depends on who you ask.

I have personally seen the effects of prayer in my life. But not the huge, miracle type of thing. Just everyday stuff.

[Az]

11. Not according to the peer review process

A study that is truly scientific is submitted for peer review. This allows other scientists to pick it apart and see if they can find any flaws. If there are flaws in the study then it is invalid no matter how desired the outcome is. And what happens in prayers studies is that most of them have been poorly put together and wind up with all manner of tainted data. The link I provided above is to the most recent study and to date the largest study (in such studies you want big samples) and it shows a slight negative impact in the group that knew it was being prayed for. This is within the limits expected so its not a case of prayer causing them harm. But the study simply shows there is no evidence of prayer affecting peoples recovery.

In science positive tests are not the end but rather the beginning. If a positive result is observed then the test must be repeated. And repeated. If at any time a negative test results the theory must be discarded and a new one formed.

In the case of Prayer studies the advocates keep coming back with the same theory and it keeps getting dismantled by lack of evidence for it.

[MistressOverdone]

13. I find it interesting that the group knew it was being

prayed for and yet the results were negative. You'd think there would be a placebo effect.

[Az]

14. You have to allow for variance

Which is why most tests provide a +- measure. The fact that the results were similar even though they were lower just indicates that there was no statistical significance to the prayer.