Why do so many people on DU hate Jesus?

[catbert836]

Since this is the Religion forum, I hope I'll get a better response than in GD, where they flamed me for being a freeper and zealot.

[Mika]

1. freeper and zealot

:evilgrin:

Someone had to start. ;)

[catbert836]

5. Thanks a lot.

:mad: ;-)

[Trajan]

2. WHO the hell 'HATES' Jesus ? ...

This is absurd ....

Show me a SINGLE INSTANCE of any DUer saying they 'HATE JESUS' ...

[sangh0]

17. They hate people who believe in Jesus

Since they don't "hate Jesus" I guess it's OK that they hate all religious people who are actually alive.

[Trajan]

31. Talk about feeling persecuted ....

and projection .....

"I guess it's ok that they hate all religious people who are actually alive" ...

Now THAT is a stretch, dontcha think ? ...

REAL 'hatred' is very rare ...

Hell: I dont 'hate' george bush ... I dont 'hate' anyone .... I think george bush is WRONG as president ... I think the GOP is WRONG as a ruling party and philosophy, and I believe theology is WRONG as philosophy ....

I dont 'hate' any of them .... I REJECT them .....

You interpret rejection as hatred .... that is YOUR problem ... not mine ....

I love everyone, and want ALL humanity to come together for the common good of all .... frankly: I dont see george bush, the GOP, Judaism, Islam OR Christianity moving humanity forward ...

I REJECT those philosophies on the merits or lack thereof ... They will NOT move humanity towards the common goal of the alleviation of suffering and despair, and the extinction of utter, wretched poverty ... I believe EACH of the philosophies presented by those groups moves us FARTHER away from beneficience ...

I DISAGREE with them: I REJECT them .. I do not 'hate' them .....

I AGAIN request numerous examples of expressions by DUers of 'hatred' agaisnt christianity, or as you claim, 'ALL religious people' ...

NOT disagreement .... NOT condemnation of rhetorical arguments presented ... NOT rejection .... but pure, unadulterated, unmistakable HATRED against 'all religious people' by liberals here at DU ....

I defy you to present a sample of that regular stream of 'hatred' to us ....

Go find the threads; and copy the hateful talk here so we can see it ... (copy and paste the thread URL too)

Your mental constructs of what you 'interpret' to be 'hatred' will not suffice as evidence .... We want prima facie, material evidence ....

[Pachamama]

3. What are you talking about? No one on this site hates Jesus....

And if you do post things with statements like that, you will get flamed as a freeper....

Show me where the "hate of Jesus" is....you won't find it because it doesn't exist and if you do, I guarantee you its from a Freeper who is intentionally trying to disrupt...

[catbert836]

7. OK, on edit I was wrong

:grouphug:

[mike_c]

4. I don't "hate Jesus..."

...but I'm not fond of overbearing christians. Why can't you simply enjoy your faith privately as I enjoy my atheism?

[DeepGreen]

6. I don't hate him,,,

at times I wish I would have lived when he did, to have a chance to know him.

What I hate is how he has been abused, how is name is used
to support so many awful things, how his words have been
skewed and twisted,,,. After a while of this, I get tired of
hearing it and just turn off.

[teach1st]

8. Jesus is cool...

..people telling me their version of Jesus is cool and the way things ought to be is not cool.

[buddysmellgood]

9. Well, first tell us why you hate Jesus.

[clydefrand]

10. I don't hate Jesus and I imagine out of over 60,000 Du'ers that

there are many more who don't. I don't believe all that is said in the Bible about God and even the "miracles" attributed to Jesus.

But I do agree with many of the teachings He is given credit for.

[distantearlywarning]

11. I love Jesus.

His "followers" drive me out of my mind, however...

[sangh0]

18. Why do you hate liberal Christians?

Liberal Christians are also "followers of Christ".

Why do you hate them, or did you just make a poor choice of words?

[distantearlywarning]

21. I AM a liberal Christian. That's why I put "followers" in quotes.

Furthermore, I didn't use the word HATE.

[sangh0]

22. You don't hate people who drive you out of your mind?

Maybe you should

You said that the followers of Christ drive you out of your mind. I suspect that liberal Christians don't drive you out of your mind. I even mentioned the possibility in my previous post, so I don't know why you would cling to the notion that your original statement was not worded very well.

[distantearlywarning]

24. Go pick a fight with someone else. I'm not interested...

:eyes:

[T_i_B]

29. You are right sangh0

The left has a real problem with religious bigotry. Now this is sometimes directed towards other religions such as Judaism or Islam, but the main brunt of this hatred is towards Christians. You need only witness the incessant use on this board of the term "fundie" as an anti-Christian slur.

Small wonder that so many Christians choose to abandon the left when they are the targets for so much abuse and hatred. We on the left like to pretend that we are somehow more enlightened and tolerant than the rest of society but in reality this is little more than a monumental lie.

And I know I'll get flamed for saying this, but you have only to witness the religious flame wars in GD to see what I'm saying. Trouble is, we on DU are rather too fond of screaming like stuck pigs about the faults of others when in reality we should be working out how to remove the log from our own eyes.

[bloom]

40. "screaming like stuck pigs"

you mean like the basis of this thread?

[RUDUing2]

45. you know what I have noticed both on DU and Freeperville?

that there is a reason for the stereotyping and vilification of both conserves and libs..

cause on freeperville you see lots of posters that confirm the belief that libs have that all conserves are narrow-minded, mean-spirited, uncaring, money grubbing, holier-then-thou fundamentalist christian zealots....

and on du you see lots of posters that confirm the belief that all libs are self-righteous, condescending, elitist, whining, atheist anti-christian zealots....

both sites serve to reinforce the stereotypes of the parties..which is a shame...especially the impression that so many are proud of the fact that they do re-inforce the negative stereotypes..somehow they seem to believe that it means they have the *courage of their convictions*...instead of it showing that they don't know how to think for themselves, but instead have to blindly follow the literal party line...(the old letter of the law vs. the spirit of the law)...and yes both extremist conserves and extremist libs are equally guilty of this behavior.

[doni_georgia]

63. There's guilt on both sides, to be honest, but -

Frankly, I have to side with the Christian left on this. The right-wingers in this country have gone to considerable lengths to co-opt Christianity as a constituency. I wouldn't object to this per se, but the Christianity that is being represented is often very selective in terms of ranking the sinners and the saints.

For example, in regard to homosexuality, there is the oft-cited passage in Leviticus that (apparently) condemns homosexuality. This is echoed in several of Paul's Epistles. If you want to take that literally, fine. Go right ahead. And while you're at it, you can also take literally the passage in Luke where Jesus Himself says that one must give away all his possessions to be one of His disciples. If Moses' statement must be accepted as inviolable, how much more so should Jesus' words be?

Now, I don't know about you, but in my experience, the conservatives in this country are certainly not adverse to accumulating wealth. Jesus devoted roughly a fourth of everything He said in His ministry to the dangers of wealth to the human soul. I have not seen any passage in which He references homosexuality. From this I would have to conclude that, given His perfect wisdom, my priorities should match His. So, I'll shut up about homosexuality and start warning all the wealthy people I know about the dangers of having too much money. If Jesus is silent on an issue, why is the right so loud about it? And if Jesus is vocal, why is the right so quiet?

There are other issues involved, involving the treatment of the poor, injustice, mercy, etc. What I've found, in years of being on both sides of the fence at different times, is that the left - whether it its individuals believe in Jesus or not - is far closer to the actual teachings of the Messiah than the right is. The right will counter that it's God making the rules, not them. I then would riposte with the number of traditions that were accepted in Jesus' time as God's rules, but which Jesus Himself ignored. And I would also point out that it was the religious leaders, not the sinners, who drew Jesus' most wrathful and insulting invective.

Just me thotz...
Mac in Ga

[T_i_B]

70. I agree with you too doni_georgia

Political types of all stripes tend to like to pick and choose the bits of religion that are convenient to themselves. This always seems to corrupt the original message and indeed in many cases you wonder if the protagonists are really worshipping God or if they are in actual fact worshiping political ideology.

This is not a right wing or a left wing trait, it's a political trait that I see in both the religious right and also such things as Liberation Theology.

For me my religion comes before my politics. I need to improve myself before I can improve society. And whilst the Bible has bits in it that are left wing, and bits that are right wing on the whole it cannot be pinned down to any political side.

[Tafiti]

38. "Dear God, please protect me from your followers." n/t

[Dr.Phool]

12. I don't hate Jesus

I also don't hate Santa Clause, The Easter Bunny, The Tooth Fairy, or Leprachauns. I just don't believe any of them exist, or have ever existed. I also don't believe Elvis is alive.

[Cobalt Violet]

28. Lol.

:evilgrin:

[Cheswick2.0]

42. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

that was almost clever the first 200 times I read it here on DU. Why are atheists so hateful?

[bloom]

46. This is not a hateful statement:

"I also don't hate Santa Clause, The Easter Bunny, The Tooth Fairy, or Leprachauns. I just don't believe any of them exist, or have ever existed. I also don't believe Elvis is alive."

That is a statement of non-belief. If some Christians were not so sensitive to people saying they don't believe what some Christians believe - they wouldn't have to get so wadded up.

If someone believes that Jesus is as imaginary as Santa Claus - that is one way to get the point across. I think some people really do not want hear anything that conflicts with their belief.

If people really do not want to hear that others do not believe Jesus existed they should not start and read these threads.

I find it rather annoying when Christians seem to need to shut everybody up - especially after asking the question.

Why are Christians so hateful?

[RUDUing2]

47. why are atheist so hateful? Why the need to equate religious beliefs w/

fantasy? If you really don't believe in Jesus or God then why the overwhelming need to denigrate those that do and to demean Jesus and God? Why is that the only way that those who subscribe to the atheist belief system have to get their message across? Are they unable to support or defend their beliefs w/out trashing someone elses beleifs?
I find the overwhelming need of some atheist to shut up everyone who believes differently then they do, especially christians, rather annoying...

Again why are atheist so hateful?

[bloom]

48. Again

I don't see anything hateful in it.

If someone hated Jesus they might say, "Jesus was a lying sack of shit..."

If someone were to express hate about Christians they might say, "Chritians are a bunch of ignorant fuckwads".

That is not what was said in this thread.

If someone believes that Jesus is as much of a myth as the tooth fairy - that is simply stating their own belief - it is only perceived as hate by people who choose to interpret it that way.



Christians are as hateful as atheists - and I think the Christians are projecting with such questions as "Again why are atheist so hateful?"

[RUDUing2]

49. I know you don't see anything hateful in it...

and I find it sad, but expected, that you refuse to acknowledge that the other side of the debate could have any legitimate problem with your statements.

What is really ironic is that you are doing the same thing you condemn the other side for (insisting that only your beliefs have merit and that it is okay to be disrespectful (and for you alone to decide what is disrespectful)to the other side), but somehow managing to justify it when you do so, while crying foul on the other side.

[bloom]

50. "problem with your statements"

They are not my statements. I don't compare belief in Jesus to the belief in the tooth fairy - maybe because I was brought up believing the Jesus=God, myself. So I know something of where people are coming from on that.

Some people were not. For some people - I think many of the ideas of Christian theology - virgin birth and all that - have got to sound like the most delusional story ever concocted and believed by millions of people over 2000 years. There have been many wild religious beliefs over time - but to have one such as this continue on in this day and age is quite incredible.

So I think I know where both sides are coming from. And I happen to find the protests of the Christians esp. tiresome around here. Esp. the accusations of "hate" - as if to imply that only Christians are the good guys or something....

[RUDUing2]

51. and I have to say before coming to DU I had never seen such rudeness

and hatefulness directed at christians by so-called tolerant liberals.

There is no reason for it on this site when directed at other DU posters and there is no excuse for it.

I happen to find the protests of the atheist esp. tiresome around here. Esp. the accusations of "blind following"--as if to imply that only atheist think for themselves and use logical thought processes.

[bloom]

52. So it sounds like we are equally annoyed...

there you go...

[bloom]

53. P.S. "I had never seen such rudeness

and hatefulness directed at christians by so-called tolerant liberals."

Unfortunately the same cannot be said about Christians. LIke those who go from town to town with the signs "God HATES Fags" and such - just to stir things up.

Just like the purpose of this thread was to stir things up and get people talking about "People who hate Jesus". Do you see people standing out on street corners saying "I hate Jesus"?

I see the Christians as the ones trying to start something.

[RUDUing2]

54. so all christians are like that? All christians go from town to town and

hold up signs saying God hates fags?...sorry to disillusion you, but only a small subset of so-called christians do that. They are the equivalent of the extremist atheist. Both sides are just as bad as the other. But both are a small subset, (although regretfully vocal), of their belief system. (and yes I consider atheism a belief system).

IMO the purpose of the this thread was to expose the hypocrisy of some of the extremist atheist here at DU.

I see the atheist as the ones trying to start something..(just look at the overall tone of the threads the last few days on science and religion)..and christians saying "hey you can believe what you want, but you need to walk the walk of tolerance instead of being the type of hypocrit that only talks the talk of tolerance.".

[bloom]

57. Sounds like a right-wing meme to me:

Bob Jones Sees Bush Win As 'Reprieve'

Friday November 12, 2004 2:01 PM


GREENVILLE, S.C. (AP) - Bob Jones III, president of the fundamentalist college that bears his name, has told President Bush he should use his electoral mandate to appoint conservative judges and approve legislation ``defined by biblical norm.''

``In your re-election, God has graciously granted America - though she doesn't deserve it - a reprieve from the agenda of paganism,'' Jones wrote Bush in a congratulatory letter posted on the university's Web site.

``You have been given a mandate. ... Put your agenda on the front burner and let it boil. You owe the liberals nothing. They despise you because they despise your Christ,'' said the letter, dated Nov. 3.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-4611337,00.html

[RUDUing2]

60. again you are giving examples of a small subgroup of extremist

fundamentalist..which is not relevant to the majority of christians.

Good god Bob Jones doesn't think that Catholics are christians, or any non fundamentalist non bible literal believer...

Don't try to use him as an example of christians, cause it is like saying all americans (including you) are just like Bush cause afterall he is an american and so are they...

[bloom]

67. well - I'm glad

that it isn't a member of a "small subgroup of extremist fundamentalist" (their number isn't that small these days) that started this thread with basically the same question.

I hope you all are not influenced by a group such as the Bob Jones people who seek to marginalize anyone who is not a Christian. As if non-Christians are not marginalized enough - esp. out here in the "red" states.

I think people/society is influenced by things like that without realizing it. It seems like quite the coincidence to me - otherwise - right-winger questions popping up on a liberal message board. (I've seen it happen around here before).

[RUDUing2]

71. Bob Jones doesn't want to just marginalize any one who isn't a christian..

he wants to marginalize anyone who isn't the *right* type of christian. And of course he is who gets to decide who is the right type of christian...

You are taking the op out of context and trying to turn her post into something it wasn't...she raised a legitimate question given the posts that were made concerning evolution and christians on DU.

TBH your response of lumping all christians in w/the extremist was a good example of the mindset she was talking about...should we lump all atheist in w/anarchist?

[bloom]

73. and I think it is yet another example

of how you wish to interpret or misinterpret what others are saying.

When people do that - of course there is no understanding.

If people want to be liberal Christians, fine. I think part of that is trying to understand where non-Christians are coming from. That is not the sense I am getting from you or this thread.

[RUDUing2]

74. that is because you seem to be so busy wanting to believe that all

christians are like the fundamentalist.

We understand were non-christians are coming from..but non-christians don't seem to want to admit that there is any difference between the fundamentalist and the majority of christians.

[Ignoramus]

55. "if anyone challenges our ideas, it can only be because they hate us"

I think that paraphrases the argument of Christians who accuse people of hating them.

It's similar to: if anyone attacks us, it can only be because "they hate our freedom". A defiant assertion that one's own belief will not be challenged by rational arguments, and an adamant refusal to consider any other point of view.

Say, I was a lobsterist, a follower of a religion that was based on the belief that a divine space lobster commands me to kill and eat non-lobsterists. And say I justified this by saying that non-lobsterists can only be unconvinced of the holiness of the divine space lobster, because they are being confused by the evil space sponge.

Then, you come and ask me to back up my belief in a divine space lobster, and make an analogy between my lobsterist faith and belief in the easter bunny.

Wouldn't it be predictable for me to say "why do you hate lobsterists, and subject us to such mockery?"

If you challenged my religious practice of killing non-lobsterists, would it be a valid argument, for me to say "why are you unable to be tolerant of other's beliefs? you can believe what you want, but what makes you so certain that you know the only truth?"

What I see is agnostics attempting to engage in a philosophical discussion with religious Christians. The response of the Christians is to be offended by having their philosophy challenged.

I typically see a parallel made between people's notions of the relationship between parents and children and God and Christians. If you were a parent, would you want your children to worship you? If you tell them to read a book, they read it, if you don't tell them to, they don't? Wouldn't you rather have them respect you, and learn from your ideas independently of you?

If you are greatly impressed by what you think are the teachings of Jesus, I think you should be anxious to challenge those ideas.

Worship is disrespect.

[RUDUing2]

56. hey I am just turning the words around that were posted about christians..

so why did you go into rant form when I inserted atheist for christian but the original wording didn't blip on your radar? Do you not see a problem with that reaction on your part?

If you would do some study on religion you would find that your statements only hold true for extremist fundies...most moderate and liberals do tell people to question and study and search..that it is just as wrong to blindly accept religion as it is to blindly refuse to accept religion..I have researched and read..not just the bible and not just *approved* texts..and not just christian texts...and have come to realize that for me faith just is....it doesn't have to make sense on a logical level to someone else, it doesn't have to pass the testing of the skeptics...it can be illogical and that doesn't invalidate its worth...it is a shame that you believe that the only people who believe are those who haven't investigated...

Learn to differentiate and stop trying to make all christians one size fits all.

[Ignoramus]

58. I don't think it's analogous

I don't think I'm in rant form. Maybe my normal form is rant form. In any case, I'm not trying to be offensive.

I am not an atheist. Atheism is a religious belief. I am intentionally agnostic. So, in a sense I agree with your characterization of atheists.

But, the words you first objected to are ideas I associate with agnostics, because it wasn't expressing a belief. It was expressing a disbelief.

It is not just as wrong to blindly accept religion as it is to blindly refuse to accept religion. They are not analogous. One is a belief, the other is a disbelief. Atheists believe that religion is wrong. I do not believe that any religion is right.

Initially someone made an analogy between belief in the easter bunny and belief in Jesus as the son of God. This is a challenge to Christian belief. It is not hate to question someone's belief.

Your post and many many other people that I've spoken to in my life, did not meet the challenge, instead you complained that challenging your belief is hateful.

I don't think all Christians are the same. The term can have various meanings. Some of my morality can be described as Christian I think, though I don't think the ideas originate with Jesus. I think there can be a Christian that is not "of faith". My comments were addressed to you, "people of faith" and to people that think that challenging their belief is hateful.

Faith is unconditional belief. You say faith just is, and it's worth can not be invalidated by logical arguments. So, according to you lobsterist faith should allow them to kill and eat non-believers, or rather it should not be considered invalid. I suggest that that is wrong.

That you study other ideas is great, but if you still have your faith, you are saying that you will look at the ideas, but you will not allow them to challenge your belief because you have faith. So, I think the one size might not fit all but I think my criticism of your post applies to you and to other people of faith.

[RUDUing2]

59. I will simply provide you with a quote...

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
Aristotle
Greek critic, philosopher, physicist, & zoologist (384 BC - 322 BC)

[Ignoramus]

61. I'll speak more words into the void

It is the mark of a person of faith to promise to not accept anything that challenges their faith, when they entertain thoughts that might challenge them.

Me
Typist (still living)

P.S. Thanks for the link to the apocryphal books (if that's the right term) http://reluctant-messenger.com/lost_forgotten_books.htm. It looks interesting.

[RUDUing2]

62. you really don't get it do you?

Faith is just that faith.

It doesn't mean that you can not accept anything that might challenge that faith..or that they don't entertain thoughts that might challenge them. It means that even with that they still are able to retain their faith.

I find it funny that you seem to believe that only someone who unquestioningly accepts whatever they are told can have faith. That may be true of the small group of christians that make up the fundie faith..but is not true for the rest.

Of course it is easier for you if you don't have to question your own beliefs about what christians believe isn't it?

[Ignoramus]

64. maybe it's a word definition problem

I refer to unconditional belief as faith. A belief based on something other than honesty about your own reason and perception.

A belief is acceptance that something is true, as opposed to theory, hope or suspicion. I refer to unconditional belief based on a doctrine as religious faith.

People often mean different things by "faith" though, and it's the meaning not the definition that is important.

When people say they believe something, they sometimes mean that it seems true to them. "I believe the moon is made of yeast", is different than "It seems that the moon is made of yeast".

People sometimes mean that they hope, when they say that they have faith, or they will also say that they have faith in something, to indicate that they have suspicion and hope together with emotionality about it. For example, they will say that they have faith that their child will do well at school, meaning that they think it deserves to be true, or that they intend not to be depressed by evidence contradicting their suspicion.

Despite the various usages, I think it is appropriate in this conversation to use the definition unconditional belief for faith.

If you are willing to change your belief about the subject of what you say you have faith in, based on something that you might learn, then you don't have faith, you have a theory.

It is not entirely a matter of choice though. Belief is something you come to. You can't choose not to believe something, you have to learn not to believe it. I am intentionally agnostic, yet I suffer from many religious beliefs, that I can partially suspect, and probably many other's that I can't see.

People's emotional investment in a belief is tough to battle with. But, intending to suspend belief can lead that way.

Some of the emotional investment I think I see in some Christians, is "healthy" I think. It resembles reverence for nature. I don't think abandoning unconditional belief in a doctrine is incompatible with that reverence.

[Viktor Runeberg]

13. Eh?

I love the story about Jesus going to the temple when 12 years old and telling the priests where to shove it.

When Jesus comes back, would anyone who truly loves him expect him to be more polite about the current occupants of our temples? Or would he get right to work on casting the demons out of them?

One can love Jesus and hate the demons who have possessed those who preach most loudly claiming to do so in his name. Jesus might still love these charlitans as people - just as he loved whores and taxmen - but I expect no more leniency towards the demons they've lent their bodies to than to the many demons Jesus cast out the last time around.

There are few among the current evangelical and catholic "christian" leaders who are not demon possessed, and serving those demons by working to implant lesser demons among their flocks (when not, as with the catholic priests, working to implant other things elsewhere). Didn't the Bible warn us this time would come?

[TinaBeans]

39. hating jesus??

How can one hate something that does not and never has existed? That is my view of it.
I reject jesus out of hand as I would any other tale or myth regarding the unproven supernatural.

I however, do query those medieval minded xtians who make extraordinary claims such as 'they are demon-possessed' to furnish some type of credible proof of such.

Far too often,xtians make many ludicrous claims using the circular reasoning of 'that's what the bible says'.To individuals like myself, an ancient book of mostly myths,some history is insuffient to base such conclusions on.

SO cat,rune I reiterate,ow can one hate something or someone that just doesn't exist.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

14. I have a tremendous dislike, call it an aversion to persons who drag his

good name through the mud by committing atrocities in his name.

Hypocrites who claim that receiving "tax benefits" is better than helping the poor with them... is better than all children having affordable health care

Corporate whores who allow the drugcos to charge what they will, who block the importation of live saving drugs for the needy who are suffering under these same corporate whores' economy designed to promote class warfare as if it were part of the "waronterrah".

People who profess the loudest are usually the ones who show the least by their actions... hate Jesus?? You've got to be kidding. Contempt for those who use his legacy to further their own riches?? Absolutely.

http://www.hissheep.org/controversial/christianity_or_religious_hypocrites.html
Christianity or Religious Hypocrites

[sportndandy]

15. I just hate when my prayers aren't answered.

I mean, Jesus is probably busy or something, right?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

33. Sometimes

the answer to a prayer is patience, and sometimes the answer is no.

[Liberal Veteran]

16. Jesus is fine...Paul on the other hand should have been aborted...

My basic problem with many Christians lately is how they all seem to have bibles that omit Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and skip right to the whackjob Pauline epistles.

[RUDUing2]

44. my sentiments exactly...IMO fundamentalist are not christians..they

are not following or proclaiming the message of Christ..which was love, peace and inclusion/acceptance of all...instead they are Paulians..they are following and proclaiming the exclusion message of the religious fanatic who helped to stone Stephan to death...for daring to believe differently then what Paul thought was the *right* way to believe...

Again in my opinion Paul perverted the message of Christ and changed it to fit his zealot fanaticism..ala Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson..and I can not understand how the early members of the church could turn their backs on Peter whom they were told by Christ himself was to the be the head of his church on earth and follow the rantings of Paul...

okay off my soapbox..lol...

[zeemike]

65. I know what you mean about Paul

But Paul probably saved the Christians from extinction by grossly perverting the teachings of Jesus and making it more acceptable to the Roman empire.
Just like in all of life, there are reasons for all things whether black or white.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

19. My beef is with hate disguised as religion.

I disdain how they put the Ten Commandments on everything and always fail to talk of the Beatitudes, which I think is some of the best teachings of Jesus. And I stole (never said I wasn't a sinner) this point from Kurt Vonnegut and Sister Joan Chittister both of which have more Christian integrity than any coke sniffer from Connecticut implanted in Texas and cast upon the world could imagine.
P.S. Dan Burton's is a hypocritical piece of shit who also tries to force me to hate my religion. http://www.tylwythteg.com/enemies/burton.html

[sangh0]

23. What about hate disguised as criticism?

There are some on DU who express hatred for Christians, and when questioned about it, say they're "criticizing".

IMO, I think we should ALL be against ALL forms of hatred, and not just the hatred that disguises itself as religion.

[VTHoosierPatriot]

26. As a Catholic,

I was taught religion is criticism. Intense criticism.

[sangh0]

27. Thanks

but I asked about "hate disguised as criticism" and not actual criticism

[OneBlueSky]

20. what's hated is the bastardizing of Jesus' message . . .

for right-wing political causes that are distinctly non-Christian . . .

[supernova]

25. Bear in mind

that a lot of those who express outright hatred of things xtian here on DU have had abusive church experiences. Sadly, it happens. So, do understand that their anger might be justified with some truth to their experience. They lash out at us in lieu of the ways they couldn't fight back when they were younger.

I identify as a liberal Christian. And like the poster above, I believe in the things Jesus taught and place a primary emphasis on those, but I have doubts about all the miracle stuff. I don't take it personally. I simply continue to show love and respect to all to the best of my ability. That's the only way you win them over that not all xtains are "bad" xtains.

[doni_georgia]

30. Because the equate Jesus with the right wing fanatics who claim to follow

him. I know lots of people like this. They want no part of a religion or a God whose followers act the way these people act. If these people would read the bible they would learn that Jesus was NOTHING like these zealots who claim to worship him.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

32. Jesus has been given a bad rap

If one reads His words and contemplates them, one can find some good ideas for living a spiritual life. The problem is not Jesus; it is the people who say they follow Him. The way the Message has been manhandled has turned off many, and they have rejected Jesus because of the distortions perpetrated by others.

[SOS]

34. Love the Sermon on the Mount

but can't stand Ralph Reed or Jerry Falwell.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

35. I don't think they hate Jesus as much as they hate what the

alleged American followers of Jesus do when they get in control of things.

[GOPBasher]

36. Don't think anyone hates Jesus.

If anyone said something like that, it would offend me. Most of us can't stand the religious right, but those in the religious right don't really seem to like Jesus that much, or else they'd embrace the teachings of Jesus -- they want to help the poor, create peace, etc.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

37. Since Roy Cohn died, I do not think there is anyone I hate

There are people I dislike. People with whom I disagree.

But hate?

Nah.

[bloom]

41. Definately the wrong question

Anyone who knows anything about the gospel would see that if anything most Christians of today are like the Pharisees - and /or like the Romans of Jesus time. Not like Jesus at all.

So they (your supposed Jesus "haters") are hating the same thing the followers of Jesus hated. All these sensitive Christians around here should see that and not take so much offense.


This weeks Time magazine has an interesting article on Jesus.

[Ignoramus]

43. Manipulative questions/Faith vs. Reverence

First, the question hits a nerve. It's a manipulative question, perhaps not intentionally, in the typical simplistic style I'm so used to hearing from right-wingers (I guess, unlike yourself), that slips in a labeling accusation, like:

"Do you support the troops" (yes means you support the troops actions, no means you wish harm to come to kids in the military). Or:

"are you pro-life" (yes means you support denying women control over their bodies, no means you "oppose life"). Or:

"why do you hate america" (as if "america" is a slogan and a flag. it's like asking "why do you hate your elbow", because you don't sport "pro-elbow" flags and chant el-bow el-bow el-bow.).

A more honest way to phrase the question might be, "Why won't the mean people on DU avoid challenging the rationality of faith"?

People of "faith", i.e. people who intentionally adopt ignorance of anything contradicting an absolute belief in something based on no reason, are THE reason for all political problems in the world.

People that operate on faith in dogma can not be reasoned with, because that is the meaning of faith. You believe unconditionally.

The great nerf ball in the sky commands them to do something, and whatever it is, they will do it. The nerf ball commands them to kill Iraqis and they do it because of no reason, it's faith.

I consider religion to be in the same area as science, in that it does concern issues beyond responding to urges, appetites and fears.

The idea of regarding something Divine resembles a tendency toward awareness, and having reverence for nature (all that is).

But, faith is not reverence, and fear is not reverence. Christians that I have talked to don't express reverence for "the divine", but fear of a demonic god caricature that they seem to have crayoned in their own image.

If "Mr. God" were an omnipotent tyrant, he would be unworthy of respect, and suspiciously similar to a mental construct and cultural phobia.

If "Mr. God" were benevolent and worthy of respect, he would not demand to be feared, nor seek the insult of empty worship without respect.

I don't think that religion necessarily implies faith. In fact I think the distinction between religion and science is rather vague.

Religious faith, however, is disrespect for "the divine" and it is THE enemy of the world.

[zeemike]

66. Would it be the same if i said...

"Why won't the mean people on DU avoid challenging the rationality of Atheism"?

Or this:

Atheist, i.e. people who intentionally adopt ignorance of anything contradicting an absolute belief in something based on scientific reason, are THE reason for all political problems in the world.


And this:

Christians that I have talked to don't express reverence for "the divine", but fear of a demonic god caricature that they seem to have crayoned in their own image.

Have you heard any of that here form the Christians that are here? No?
So who are your friends and who are you talking to?

[Ignoramus]

69. No, it would be somewhat different

I am interested in religions. I want to engage in philosophical conversation about religion. I want to be criticized. It's entirely possible that your ideas are not the ideas that I am criticizing, and if they were I would hope you would not take offense.

Atheism is a religious belief. I try to be agnostic. That is, I try to disbelieve, which is not the same as believing something isn't true. I don't believe in a God, nor do I believe that there isn't a God (or I don't intend to do either, my theory is that there isn't a discreet God entity).

I think you're right about part: atheists intentionally adopt ignorance of anything contradicting their belief in something. But, it's a contradiction in terms to have an absolute belief in something based on scientific reason. Scientific reasoning only allows for theories. Belief in reason is not scientific. Belief itself is not scientific.

Religious people, or rather, people that hold religious beliefs, like atheists, dogmatic "scientists" and theists are THE reason for all political problems in the world.

I suspect that most atheists would decide they are agnostics, if they were pressed on the issue.

But, belief isn't something you can choose, though I suppose it's possible to quickly convince yourself of things at will. Similarly, you can't decide to be smart, or decide not to be bigoted.

You arrive at a belief as a side-effect of your intentions, but generally not at will.

I suspect I have various religious beliefs and probably have many that I don't suspect. So, I am unintentionally religious.

Religion itself is separate from religious belief. Religion is a doctrine. Some religious doctrines discourage religious belief, e.g. Buddhism.

There could be people who identify with what they think is the philosophy of Jesus, without holding it as a religious belief. And people could find themselves believing it, without being "of faith", and so be open to analyzing the philosophy.

About the reverence thing, I have read people here expressing their worship of their God, without expressing any curiosity about the concept of their being a God entity and what that would imply.

I haven't read direct baptist style expressions of fear, but if you express acceptance of arbitrary rules coming from a God, not because they are inherently good, but because they come from a God, that is based on fear of an omnipotent being.

[zeemike]

72. OK I understand you much better now

And you are right about most of that. and that does includes religion as practiced today.
But just keep in mind that religion was not intended in the begging to be dogmatic at all , in fact just the opposite of that.
Religion was at first (if you want to go back to what are thought of as primitive times) mainly ceremonial. And the porpoise of the ceremony was to remind the people of there spiritual world. And that is true of Native Americans as well as most of the aboriginal tribes of the world.
Even Jesus himself established a ceremony when he said " Do this in remembrance of me" And in the original Christians they did just that, they broke bread and shared wine.
I have no idea when it all got started that the leader would get up and start issuing Dogmas to replace the ceremony, but I suspect it started with Paul.
If you want to engage me in philosophical conversation about religion I would welcome it, and I assure you I will not be offended.

[w13rd0]

68. Why does everyone...

...have to go hating on the baby Jesus?

If one were of the Christian faith, to say someone else "hates Jesus" would be, in truth, a blasphemous statement. How could someone who doesn't know Jesus, hate Him? One forms their opinions of others based on direct contact, or thru the testimony of others. If a so-called Christian presents the person Jesus in such a light that someone might hate Him, wouldn't that be bearing false witness? So this question, and indeed the entire basis for this thread, is complete crap.

[catbert836]

75. Moderator, lock this thread please.

Or at least do something.

[Moderator]

76. Hate is a strong word.

And it's inappropriate to accuse 'so many people on DU' of hating Jesus for the sole purpose of drawing attention to your thread.