The Two Jesus' . Is Jesus His Own Anti-Christ?

[Solomon]

First there is the Jesus everybody loves. The gentle as a lamb guy, sweet, innocent, without sin. The one in the Gospels.

This is what he was the first time he came here.

But when he comes back...

He's a sword carrying, fire breathing, condemnor of souls. A threatening nightmare.

The very opposite of what he was in the Gospels.

[roguevalley]

1. There is SERIOUS debate whether Revelations belongs in the

biblical canon. I don't believe it does. I think it was put there to scare the masses into behaving. Revelations is the worst book ever written and obviously the mental illness of a demented man written large.

[Spider Jerusalem]

2. There's a theory that the Revelation...

was the product of hallucinogenic use. There's a serious school of thought that John of Patmos was out of his mind on amanita muscaria or something similar at the time he wrote it.

[H2O Man]

3. Correct.

Either way, it is a description of what occures within a person. It should not be confused with external events.

[Dunedain]

5. What about the letters to the churches?

Are they a message to each type of believer?

[tjdee]

8. The letters were written by Paul, a doozy in his own right.

So much of modern Christianity is based on Paul, which is sort of silly.

Paul was writing to different churches addressing different issues at the different churches--a long way of saying yes to your question.

[lvx35]

12. Ahh, I kinda like revelations!

Its like at the end, somebody was like: "Just in case you had ANY confusion that the entire bible was to be taken literally, this book will set ya strait!"

[CarbonDate]

13. If Revelations was meant as a prophecy....

...I wonder why so many people hold to its depiction of the origin of the devil?

And there was a great battle in heaven, Michael and his angels fought with the dragon, and the dragon fought and his angels: and they prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And that great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, who seduceth the whole world; and he was cast unto the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him. (Apocalypse 12: 7-9)

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04764a.htm

Is it set in the future, or the past? If parts of it are set in the past, then why not the plagues? Like, say, Exodus? The return of Jesus? Duh, he already rose from the dead. Yet Jesus's return is so central to the theology of so many Christians that without it, most people wouldn't know what to do with themselves.

Back when I was studying to be a pastor, I determined that Revelations wasn't a prophecy, but a recap of events that had gone on in the Bible already, but that it was so cryptically written that many people mistook it for a prophecy.

The end of the world isn't going to come until we bring it. Even extreme fundies have realized this. The problem is, they've taken this as a challenge.

I agree, Revelations should have been left out. Everybody would have been better off.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

4. And another angle is that it was written during the first persecutions

as kind of a revenge fantasy, a way of saying that the Romans were going to get it for messing with the Christians.

[Solomon]

6. Kick for more comment

[BoneDaddy]

7. Misinterpretation

Solomon, that is a very fire and brimstone, literal look of the second coming. Fire is the element that accompanies Jesus' return. Many people thought this to mean destruction, but fire was also the symbol for inspiration, insight, understanding. The burning bush, for example.

During the cold war people intrepreted many of revelations into being destruction of the world via nukes, some still do. I think it is the death of one age and the birth of another. We are moving from the sign of the fish (pieces)(also the sign of Jesus) and into an aquarian age.

[Bike Punk]

9. Maybe he just needed some prozac

[MellowOne]

10. Revelation was never meant to be a blueprint for the future

It was a book of hope for the first century Christians under persecution. John wrote the book when he was "in the spirit" or in the spiritual realm. John is told to "come up here." Jesus appears as a warrior because he is our warrior against the evil in the spiritual realm, doing spiritual warfare for the believer.

There will not be a rapture and Jesus is not going to destroy the lost souls. It's not Biblical. It's not needed because those who do not accept Jesus will be separate from God when they die so there is no point in torturing them for seven years. God would never leave people without hope or redemption.

[grumpy old fart]

11. not good 'ol God. So what happens to non-Christians when they die?

According to your theology.

[jbnow]

15. I have to say I wonder why

people/believers would say things like "It's not needed because those who do not accept Jesus will be separate from God when they die"

Jesus? So when Jesus comes back his believers will recognize him? Because...they have seen good pictures of him? Or he will have a name tag?

Jesus was a man (or myth) and if we look at Western pictures of him they likely have nothing to do with how he would look.

And Good Lord...the loudest Christians dislike everything Jesus was about and preached and glorify everything he was against.

The dude Jesus was a man, filled with the Christ energy. And it would be the Christ who could say "No one can get to the father but through me" or "I am the truth and the way and the light"

It would be the man Jesus who'd ask God why he had abandoned him. Jesus was a man.

So what will happen to non-Christians (as we know the term) is the same that will happen to Christians. The more we are attuned to that energy the more we will be drawn to it.

It won't have a thing to do with the words we use for what we believe in, the name we give our God or religion or if we think we have any at all.

It will have much to do with how we opened to and lived that energy. The love, compassion, nonjudgmentalness. What we did for the least of his brethren.

"By their fruits you shall know them""But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace,patience, kindness, goodness, trustfulness, gentleness, and self-control, against such there is no law."

God won't be smiting non-believers or Muslims or anyone who lived in Spirit, whatever words they used. Nor are the smug Christians placed at the head of any line. Even Jesus pointed that out.

If God really wants someone to believe God exists, they will. God is good at that. But believing you believe by fear or by rote...can actually block true belief.

Well I will be quiet now, but you asked.

[LaurenG]

14. Swords are an occult word for the mind

Fire is spirit. I think Christ is what will happen to people, not the person who was Jesus coming to hurt people. Being Christed is a good thing, a higher consciousness where-by people become more of who they "truly" are. Not that part of ourselves that is self serving and hateful, the best of us.

[Zebedeo]

16. No, not the opposite at all

Jesus is the same in the Gospels as He is in Revelation. Here are his own words as set forth in the Gospel of Matthew:

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Matthew 13:40-43

Sounds exactly like the Jesus of Revelation to me.

14I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." 16So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.
17Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. 18Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, "Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes from the earth's vine, because its grapes are ripe." 19The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the great winepress of God's wrath. 20They were trampled in the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising as high as the horses' bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia. Revelation 14:14-20

14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15

The message seems to be that each person must choose whether to be one of God's children, or His enemy. A close reading of the Bible reveals that God's enemies do not fare too well. Jesus Himself spoke clearly about the End Times in the Gospels, and His description is spot on with how they are described in Revelation, IMHO.

[hunter]

17. Revelation is a very explicit metaphor for truth conquering falsehood.

"...and out of his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword; and his face shone like the sun at full stregnth. (Rev 1.16)

"These are the words of the One... (Repeated several times.)

"Then I saw Heaven wide open, and there before me was a white horse; and it's rider's name was Faithful and True, for he is just in judgement, and just in war. His eyes flamed like fire, and on his head were many diadems. Written upon him was a name known to none but himself, and he was robed in a garment drenched in blood. He was called the Word of God, and the armies of heaven followed him on white horses clothed in fine linen, clean and shining. From his mouth there went a sharp sword with which to smite the nations... (Revelations 19.11-16)

It has been the astonishing ignorance of most Christianity not to recognize the very explicit metaphor of Revelations, and to presume that they themselves could ever be the "armies of heaven."

God, or in a more general sense, The Truth, triumphs by the WORD, not by the literal sword. By the WORD, that which is TRUE will triumph over that which is false, and that which is GOOD will triumph over that which is evil.

But it seems most people are too ignorant to understand that. They think that if they get on some high horse, take up a sword, then they can join some crusade and become a part of heaven's army.

Murderous Ignorant Assholes are all of them who kill in God's name; and certainly not Christian in any sense. If you do not recognize the humanity of your neighbor, and especially difficult, the humanity of your enemy, then you have pretty much damned yourself.

Get it?

[Zebedeo]

19. Uh, whut?

:crazy:

What does anything you just said have to do with my post, or for that matter, this thread?

I pointed out that the Jesus in the Gospels is the same as the Jesus in Revelation. I quoted passages to support this point. The reason I made this point was that it was EXACTLY ON THE POINT of the OP, although stating a different view.

From that, you somehow concluded that I am "ignorant," that I am on "some high horse," that I have "take up a sword," that I have joined some "crusade," and that I think that I have "become a part of heaven's army." Oh, and also you imply that I am a "Murderous Ignorant Asshole" and that I "kill in God's name," and that I am "damned."

What are you smoking? Where did I say ANYTHING about wanting to kill anyone? That is just bizarre. The only explanation I can think of is that you must be projecting some sick fantasy of your own. I want no part of it.

As for your interpretation of Revelation, you are welcome to it. If you are wondering who is the "Word of God," I would suggest you might take a look at John 1:1. :think:

[hunter]

21. So, what does your Christianity buy you that others won't have?

And just how certain of that are you?

What comfort might you be seeking in the "nightmare" Jesus you claim to be the same as the Gospel Jesus?

I've read StoryTeller's "comfort" and responded to that.

Yeah, I did mean to provoke you because I found your explanation to be simplistic.

I am as cranky with the Christians as I am with the atheists.

"Beacause the Bible says so" doesn't pass.

[Zebedeo]

22. I'm not sure I understand some of your questions

So, what does your Christianity buy you that others won't have? And just how certain of that are you?

I don't understand these questions. I don't view Christianity as "buying" something. I try to behave (as best I can) in the manner in which God has expressed that He wants me to behave. The Bible is God's Word. I believe it. What does this belief "buy" me? Well, first of all, my belief is a sincere belief, not a cynical pretend-belief proferred in order to obtain some benefit. But believing (if sincere) does provide benefits that are quite awesome. First of all,

if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. Romans 10:9-10

Secondly, turning my life over to Christ has resulted in tremendous daily joy, as well as blessings in my life that I never would have thought possible. To describe these blessings would consume too much space and would likely bore the readers of this thread. Suffice it to say that life is infinitely better with Jesus in my heart. Jesus Himself said:

I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full. John 10:10

You asked:

What comfort might you be seeking in the "nightmare" Jesus you claim to be the same as the Gospel Jesus?

Not a nightmare. Oh, no. Not a nightmare at all. If you think Revelation describes a "nightmare" Jesus, and you are a Christian, I would respectfully suggest that you are misreading it. God's mercy is great, but for those who would continue to perpetually oppose Him, despite all of the chances that He has given to mankind, the end result is tragic. This, IMHO, is not God's fault. For those who choose God's way, though, the end result is everlasting life in a place where there are no tears - hardly a nightmare.

Yeah, I did mean to provoke you because I found your explanation to be simplistic.

What need is there to make it complicated? You say "simplistic." I say "simple." It's all laid out in black and white in the Good Book. You can either choose to believe it or choose not to. But God's Word does provide a warning:

if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

"Beacause the Bible says so" doesn't pass.

OK. Choose your own life's direction. I choose to believe in the Bible. I believe it is God's Word. You apparently don't. I can't make you believe it and you can't make me disbelieve it.

One reason that I follow God's Word as set forth in the Bible is that it is an objective source, apart from my own thoughts about what would be a good idea. Part of what convinced me to trust in God's Word, rather than making up my own ad hoc beliefs, was a realization that, if I was making it up as I went along, it wasn't very likely to be the truth.

[hunter]

23. I'm one of those left wing social justice Catholic sorts of Christians.

You said:

A close reading of the Bible reveals that God's enemies do not fare too well.

Hmmm, that might sound like a threat if I was an atheist or a taoist or something, especially if I was here on DU talking trash about "your guy in the sky..."

A slightly reformulated version might be: "Don't be an enemy of my god or you'll regret it."

I ask you directly, why did you say that???

You say you love me, but you're telling me I'll burn in hell. That's real sweet of you. I guess I'll see you there.

I'm not saying that was your intent, but that's what it sounds like, especially to people who constantly suffer such abuse from people proclaiming themselves "Christian."

[beam me up scottie]

24. Oh, you're going too?

I'll save you a seat since Mr. Warmandfuzzy already told us we were going to the tropics.

[Zebedeo]

25. OK, I will answer your direct question directly

A close reading of the Bible reveals that God's enemies do not fare too well.
I ask you directly, why did you say that???

That is your direct question. Here is my direct answer: I said it because it is true. The Bible does clearly indicate, over and over again, that opposing God is not a great idea. You can disagree with the Bible on this, but you can't honestly contend that the Bible doesn't say it.

In addition to it being true, I said it because the original post suggested that the peace-loving Jesus described in the Gospels is very different from the Jesus described in Revelation. I disagreed with that premise, and so I quoted a passage of Jesus' own words from the Gospel of Matthew that are entirely congruent with how Jesus is described in Revelation.

You say you love me, but you're telling me I'll burn in hell. That's real sweet of you. I guess I'll see you there.

Quite to the contrary. You are the one who said that I am "damned." I never said that about you.

I am heartsick that many will not accept God's plan of salvation. I believe that God wants every single human being on the planet to be saved. So do I. He's not going to force people to receive Him, though. He gave us free will (by creating each of us in His own image as a spirit with free will). Each of us gets to choose whether to accept or reject God.

Contrary to what you apparently think, I do love my neighbors. Love is why I tell the truth.

[hunter]

26. How to love your neighbors...

Revelations 22:18-19

I testify to the one who hears the words of the prophecy contained in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city that are described in this book

Compare this to the very similar Deuteronomy 12:32

You must be careful to do everything I am commanding you. Do not add to it or subtract from it!

It would be hopeful if that was merely a stern note to the scribes to copy the text accurately -- if you mess with the text, you don't go to heaven -- but it's not. We have seen some of the bloody battles of Revelations, but what precedes the similar command in Deuteronomy was certainly regarded as the gospel truth by those Europeans who "settled" the Americas.

Christopher Columbus and those Europeans who came after him were doing what the Bible told them to do...

When the Lord your God eliminates the nations from the place where you are headed and you dispossess them, you will settle down in their land. After they have been destroyed from your presence, be careful not to be ensnared like they are; do not pursue their gods and say, “How do these nations serve their gods? I will do the same.” You must not worship the Lord your God the way they do! For everything that is abhorrent to him, everything he hates, they have done when worshiping their gods. They even burn up their sons and daughters before their gods!

It sounds like the people here on DU who are interested in Native American spirituality are going to hell too, even if they are not already burning thier sons and daughters before you have the opportunity to kill them or make them your slaves and wives.

But wait, you might say, Deuteronomy applied to a very specific historical situation. It wasn't supposed to be about the European settlement of North America!

Well, maybe so, but that's the way most Europeans were reading their Bibles as they destroyed Native American cultures.

I'd say a similar situation exists with your quote of Revelations 22:19. As much as you might love your neighbor, the implications of the quote are clearly threatening to those who do not share your interpretation of the Bible.

[StoryTeller]

18. You have to consider the type of Biblical writing this is.

The Bible isn't just one type of writing or a single book. It's a collection of literary works in different genres. It would be like taking several novels, history books, poetry, personal experiences, legal documents, etc. and putting them all into one book. You would have to consider the genre of each one in order to best interpret and understand what you were reading.

Revelation, Daniel, and parts of Jesus' teachings in Matthew and elsewhere are called "apocalyptic" writings. They were usually written at a time of national crisis and extreme hardship and deprivation. They use a LOT of metaphor and focus on God's justice and His judgment against oppressors and tyrants.

It reminds me of how I am as a parent. I love my kids, and I love to show them affection and to have fun with them and watch them grow and mature. I sometimes get upset at them and sometimes have to scold them or give them time-outs to help them learn appropriate behavior, but mostly I teach them and train them in how I want them to behave. I look like a pretty mild-mannered, loving parent most of the time. (i.e. the way Jesus is presented in the gospels)

But you'd see a whole different side of me if somebody maliciously harmed one of my kids or tried to take them from me. I had no idea I had the capacity to be an angel of vengeance until I held my first child in my arms and felt that love seep into my soul. You don't MESS with my kids! :) (i.e. the way Jesus is presented in Revelation)

And when you were a child, if you ever had someone you love defend you and protect you and even get angry on your behalf because of wrongs committed against you, didn't that comfort you and make you feel cared for?

I think that's what the purpose of apocalyptic literature is for. It's to let the oppressed people know "God has not forgotten you. He loves you, and He will makes sure that those who are harming you will experience the consequences for what they've done. There will be justice."

I don't know how much of that type of literature is to be taken literally or figuratively or symbolically. I don't bother getting my shorts in a knot over whether or not there is a rapture or whether or not there will be an actual "battle of Armeggedon." (Actually, there's not really a rapture as such mentioned in Revelations, though various theologians have tried to interpret different parts as referring to it.) For me, the value of Revelations is to show that there is always going to be that part of this world that is evil and oppressive, and it encourages me that God--for all His kindness and mercy--is not going to ignore the wrongs done to people, and He will make sure that there is justice. It may not be on my timetable, but then again...I'm not God. :)

I also think it's important to note that Revelations has to be taken in context with the rest of the Bible. Yes, it talks about the wicked people being judged. But the overall message of the Bible is that judgment comes only for those who reject the goodness and kindness and mercy of God. There are a lot of consequences of people's behavior that may seem like judgment, I suppose, but the God of the Bible is one who offers patience and kindness and forgiveness for many times longer than He deals out justice.

For those who don't view the Bible from a religious standpoint, all this might seem pretty pointless, and I understand and respect that. I'm just approaching it from within the Bible's own context, for the benefit of people who have been confused by all this or had less-than-beneficial teaching about it. I hope it clears up some misunderstandings.

[hunter]

20. I'm done with that kind of "justice."

A god who resorts to violence is a god without power.

May God bless you never to be an "angel of vengeance" or to require such angel's services, for you will find no comfort there.

To rearrange your own words into a question, "Who rejects the goodness and kindness and mercy of God?"

Do you suppose these are the ones who will be "punished" by God?

That is not yours to know. You cannot make a firm determination of what is going on in another person's heart. (In this sense "heart" is an aspect of mind, in case anyone here wants to quibble, and I know some of you do.)

Let's play a little game, and I do understand that as Christians we may be getting into some trouble playing it.

Let's imagine all the combatants killed in World War Two which is maybe the last U.S. war where there were clearly "good guys" and "bad guys." That's millions of dead soldiers. Suppose you could ask God for the statistics on who went to hell, all divided up neatly by nationality...

There are probably some Americans who believe the majority of dead Japanese soldiers went to hell because they were not Christians, that the majority of Russian soldiers went to hell because they were communists, that the majority of German soldiers went to hell because they were Nazis, and that the vast majority of American soldiers earned their wings in heaven.

I don't think I can even talk to those people, and I would certainly reject their religion. (Yeah, yeah, won't I be surprised when I go to hell... )

I have faith that the percentages would be very similar. The United States wasn't all that far away from the same dangerous abyss that Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany fell into. Most of those soldiers who died fighting for Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan were very much the same as U.S. soldiers; ordinary people forced into extraordinarily ugly situations. In fact, that is the assumption the allies made at the closing of the war -- that the only honorable thing to do was to help our enemies up out of the abyss because the vast majority of them were good people.

The hazard of your interpretation of Revelation, StoryTeller, is that it encourages us to divide the human race up in terms of good and evil people. We human beings are notorious for dehumanizing our neighbors as evil and inferior enemies. Hitler, a man most of us can agree was evil, achieved his power by declaring others to be the vastly inferior and evil enemies of his own "aryan" race. Those who did not Heil Hitler were an impediment to what Hitler saw as the rightful progress of his society.

As a Christian, when I read the Bible I start out with what Jesus said... Love your neighbor, and love your enemy too. When you read the different books of the Bible as a Christian you don't have "to consider the genre of each one in order to best interpret and understand what you were reading." In my own experience, most common interpretations of the Bible are plainly wrong. The scholars say one thing, the casual reader says something else. Gay people should be visciously discriminated against? What, what's that? Join our church or risk eternal damnation? Huh?

People go into the Bible looking for what they want to believe, and they usually they find it. Their own crusades are justified.

Man or God, Jesus was obviously very well read concerning the Old Testament, much better than any of us. The most cunning of the Pharisees could not trip Jesus up with their questions. As a Christian I believe in Christ's interpretations, and it is Christ's responses that guide me in my own private practice of our faith. I read Revelations in that light.

In the modern world, every human being is your neighbor, and very few of them are your enemies. You are called to love them all. Therefore no crusades, no inquisitions, and no "justice" based upon your own imperfect human judgements of another's faith or absence of faith.

Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him. With that, one of Jesus' companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear. "Put your sword back in its place," Jesus said to him, "for all who draw the sword will die by the sword."

Matthew 26:50-52