Is "radical Islam" really all that different than Christianity?

[11 Bravo]

The Muslim faith is approximately 1,300 years old. There are practitioners of that faith who believe that non-believers are deserving of death, and many of them are actively pursuing that end. But let's hearken back to those halcyon days when Christianity was 1,300 years old. Christians were engaged in a little police action known as The Crusades. The purpose was to spread their religion at the point of a sword, and non-believers were held to be deserving of death. Later, during the Spanish Inquisition, "heretics" were routinely tortured and murdered for a refusal to accept "The One True Faith". Eventually, they tapered off to the occasional burning at the stake of "witches". Maybe all religions simply go apeshit after 13 centuries. But if Hannity, O'Reilly, Limbaugh, et al, had ever been subjected to the tender ministrations of Brother Tomas Torquemada, they might have a different take. (Although it's more likely they would simply continue to spout the same old shit, just to make a buck.)


I post this as a practicing Christian, who is sick of Republicans attempting to politicize my faith. They love to ask "What would Jesus do?" Then they vote to legalize torture, start another war, and cut funding for programs to assist the poor.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

1. Of course not.

Same god. Same extremism. Same intentional misinterpretations of their doctrinal texts. When you get right down to it, it's practically the same religion.

[CreekDog]

129. No, Jesus is the God of Christianity

way different.

[NeedleCast]

2. Not at All Different. Taliban or Talibaptist. Same Same

[aspergris]

3. yes

when christians start killing people over cartoons, rioting over them, murdering film directors for the last temptation of christ or priest (both movies), murdering apostates, etc. then you can draw an equivalence

that's what "radical islamists" do.

I can dunk a cross in the urine and face scorn at worst. Heck, I can do it in an art exhibit and get praise.

Try to do the equivalent to a koran in any # of countries and see how well you fare.

the difference is that christianity, judaism, and buddhism (yes, some aspects of buddhist have a very violent history counter to its peaceful rep) have had reformations

and that practitioners of those religions don't routinely murder apostates, proselytizers of other religions, murder and riot over cartoon insults to their religions, etc.

[AlCzervik]

5. how about bombing abortion clinics, does that count?

it does in my book.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. Or gay bashing?

Or burning down black churches?

Or slaughtering a million Iraqis?

[AlCzervik]

8. yup but i guess since those aren't over cartoons thay don't count?

[defendandprotect]

117. .... right, the KKK used a Christian cross . . . the Bible used to advocate slavery . . .

Wasn't Rudolph involved in trying to bomb a gay nightclub --- or other gay area?

And, of course, his bombing of at least one women's clinic ---

[loyalsister]

151. Or the genocide of Native Americans?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

10. let's talk about frequency...

you get whackjobs in any faith...but the radical adherents to Islam seem to be a little more active in their use of death and destruction than the christians (or just about any other faith that i can think of).

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

12. And the 1.2 million dead in Iraq?

I think that's fairly recent.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

15. well, you can say it a war against islam

but i thought it was a war for oil...which is it? when the radical adherents to Islam use violence it is to attack anything against their religion...and no other reason. Christianity...not so much.

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

19. 9-11 was about troop removal from Saudi Arabia.

The War in Iraq is to radical christianity what 9-11 was to radical islam.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

21. oops...

wrong message

sP

[ProdigalJunkMail]

22. so...we're trying to get the heathens off 'our' oil?

'ours' of course meaning christians...

or is this to you a religious war? we attacked them because they are muslims? shouldn't we have attacked saudi arabia then? we could have gotten more oil that way too...

sP

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

64. Of course we attacked them because they're muslims.

You don't see us invading Canada for their oil, do you? You don't see low gas prices, do you? The powers that be invaded for personal profit, the masses went along because they wanted revenge against muslims, and any muslims would do.

[wvbygod]

51. How about a link showing The War in Iraq is about radical christianity

I'll buy oil security but how about some evidence to back up YOUR claim?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

65. You got a link...

that 9-11 was about radical islam?

[defendandprotect]

118. . . . because Christianity is based on exploitation . . .

"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" are licenses to exploit ---

nature, natural resources, animal-life ---

and even other human beings according to various myths of inferiority --

i.e., women, Africans, native Americans, homosexuals.


Let's just say . . . Iraq is a CHRISTIAN CRUSADE for oil ---


Remember . . . the Vatican invented Capitalism as an economic system for their Papal States

to replace Feudalism.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

72. Count the number of those dead killed by Christians and the number by Muslims.

America may have enabled Muslim atrocities, but to absolve the actual murderers of primary responsibility is just foolish.

Note also that the Muslim killers in Iraq have, in many cases, been directly motivated by religion, whereas the predominantly-Christian Americans et al haven't been.

[Pavulon]

96. Number?

that came from a poll with an n less than 1000 and is an order of magnitude off IBC.

You should use that number carefully since it states we killed 1% of the population.

[AlCzervik]

13. well i guess the war on Iraq made up for frequency with quantity.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

17. wrong...

radical islam attacks anything that is against their religion...did we go to war as christians or addicts to oil? because if we wanted to attack islam...we should attack saudi arabia...and they have all that oil too...double whammy!

sP

[atreides1]

33. Not really

Are you saying that Radical Christians don't attack anything that isn't against their religious beliefs?

For instance the calls to boycott McDonald's because they gave a donation to a gay/lesbian group, the Fred Phelps wackos, James Dobson, the so called pro-lifers some of who have murdered for their beliefs, and let's not forget William Donahue(sp) the Catholic nut job,

The only difference right now is that the Christian radicals don't wantonly kill people, they just use the Constitution which they would shred, to further their own hatred. I truly believe that if they could get away with it they would be fire bombing any organization that goes against their own myopic beliefs, like Eric Rudolf did.

They don't use violence all the time, they just use the law and the rights that they would deny others, which makes a radical of Islam more honest then a radical Christian.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

37. the difference is the level of violence...

christians don't really blow up McDonald's because they support gay and lesbian groups. Phelps, though he is a total nutjob, really just spouts off his big mouth and doesn't kill any one and the number of pro-lifers murdering for their beliefs is actually quite small by comparison to the suicide bombers the radical adherents to Islam have run out there. And while we agree on the basics of this series of statements, i would say that radical islam is still very different than radical christianity. Are either of them doing a lot of good in the world? NO! but using violence to further your cause is MUCH different than launching lawsuits and trying to get insane laws passed...

sP

[Karenina]

55. Radical X-tians. Hmmm... The U.S.A.F.

:think:

[ProdigalJunkMail]

56. yes...exactly the same...

:crazy:

:eyes:

[Karenina]

77. Not at ALL!!! USAF has MUCH MORE firepower!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

88. yep...exact same motives...

good lord...

sP

[Karenina]

92. Six on one hand...

half a dozen on the other.

Do please enlighten me on the "motives" for the continuing bombardment of Iraq's civilians.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

94. yep...spreading christianity through bombing...

believe what you will...no one will convince you otherwise...

sP

[treestar]

79. It's the situation, not some inherent superiority of Christianity

The fundies live in the U.S., the country with the biggest military. They don't have to engage in the violence themselves, they can just let * and the military do it.

The radical Muslims don't have that. If they did, they could sit back, like the fundie Christians.

If the fundies didn't have a huge army to kills millions of Iraqis, they'd settle for killing a few of them themselves (like the radical Muslims do).

[Donald Ian Rankin]

71. You do know that nearly all the killings in Iraq have been by Muslims, don't you?

America may have acted as an enabler, but the actual atrocities have nearly all been committed by Muslims, in the name of Islam, while the Americans were at worst indifferent and in most cases trying to prevent them.

[springhill]

86. Huh? What are you talking about?

how many innocent civilians do you think we have killed in Iraq?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

95. Depends what you mean by "we" and "killed".

I, personally, haven't killed anyone in Iraq; I don't know about you.

Assuming by "we" you mean "the American, British etc armies", it depends how directly you require death to be attributable. The number of innocent civilians killed directly by Americans in Iraq is probably somewhere in the low thousands, I would guess (although that's pure guesswork, not an informed opinion), but if you count people who have died as a result of e.g. medicine being harder to get hold of as a result of the invasion, or America's enemies letting off bombs because of the current political climate, as people being killed by the American army, then the number could be orders of magnitude higher than that.

[Zhade]

126. All those bombings - the entire invasion - was done by Muslims?

Please.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

144. Hence "nearly".

The vast majority of the bombings in Iraq have been by Muslims.

The main reason the invasion lead to so many deaths was that it caused (encouraged and/or enabled) a massive wave of violence by Muslims. Relatively few Iraqis (only a few percent of the million plus I've heard quoted as the total death toll, and most of those not civilians) have been killed directly by Americans.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

98. Want to account for the countless dead killed in the name of

Xtianity over the last couple of millennia? "Witches" "heretics" "unbelievers" Jews? The hands of Xtianity are so bloody that ten millennia could never remove the stain. Jebus and his believers suck donkey dick.

[a la izquierda]

102. And don't even get me started on the western hemisphere...

beginning around, oh, 1492.

[wvbygod]

45. yes it does

Now do the math and compare the results of abortion bombings to the allah bombings.

[AlCzervik]

46. "Allah bombings"? How about the bombing of Iraq?

[wvbygod]

49. Show me the leader quotes that claimed bombing Iraq was for "god"

Bombings in Israel, Bali, Sydney etc were all done in the name of allah. You know...kill the
infedels tripe that is used to justify it. Maybe all those peaceful allah followers ganging
up on Israel to push them into the sea in the name of allah will ring a bell?

[AlCzervik]

52. ok how about the rw Christians that want the rest of us jews to populate Israel

to bring about the rapture? It doesn't end well for those of us unwilling to convert. See General Boykin's comments regarding false gods and idols, yes he was involved in Iraq.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

66. Bush: "God told me to invade Iraq."

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/bush-god-told-me-to-invade-iraq-509925.html

You must feel awfully dumb for having voted for that guy.

[Zhade]

127. b*s* himself called it a crusade.

Sorry, you don't get to excuse death in the name of christianity just because you don't like the facts.

[The Straight Story]

7. Reformation is the key here - and it is time islam faced one

Religions and ideals can progress. Failure to progress one might say is a sign of radicalism.

[JerseygirlCT]

16. The thing is

most of Islam is not what these radical, violent types have shown to the world. There are a few sects that I agree are dangerous and violent. But there are many Muslims the world over who strive for peace and justice.

I don't think we can easily make generalizations about either or any faith. There are far too many adherents, and too much variety even in theological interpretation to allow for that.

I think Wahhabism is dangerous, for example. But I also think that the sort of fire and brimstone, exclusionist and violent version of Christianity we sometimes see is also dangerous.

[niceypoo]

20. Armageddon is not 'radical?'

Um, calling for humanity to be exterminated is progress? Reeeeaaallly??

I call it madness.

[wvbygod]

47. Where do you see leaders of countries calling for armageddon?

I see several countries calling for the killing of all Jews and removing Israel and USA from the map?

Comparing a couple of fundie whackos to established leaders and rasing kids to hate Jews and to kill all those who don't accept allah is ignorance.

[Malikshah]

39. Do some research-- Islam has been reforming since the getgo

A good book to look up--

Islam in Transition (2nd Edition) Esposito, Donohue, eds.

[Greyhound]

11. Ever hear of a little to-do called "the dark ages"?

Entire races and cultures hunted to extinction. And that is the same "god" they worship. See; Lot, Job, etc.

[wvbygod]

48. past vs present

Learn the difference.

[Greyhound]

60. No difference at all to the victims of these bloodthirsty maniacs.

I don't know where you guys get the idea that, since it was done in the past, it makes no difference in the present. These are the same "values" that require adherence to an obvious delusion and justify the killing of other people in the name of that delusion.

Whether it is an infidel, or a pagan, or simply a girl that doesn't wish to be burdened with a child before she is ready, you all somehow feel justified in performing the most depraved acts and denying the very humanity of everybody that doesn't share your fantasy. Further, the fact that you don't see this is ample evidence of the depth of your pathology.

[Zhade]

130. Then there's the Black Death, for which the Catholic Church was *directly* responsible.

They believed cats were evil, killed countless numbers, and caused 3/4 of Europe to die.

[11 Bravo]

18. I think you missed the point.

In the 14th century (when Christianity was as old as Islam is today) a Jesus cartoon, or a urine-dunked cross would have earned you a hell of a lot more than a slap on the wrist. We won't be here when Islam celebrates its twenty-one centuries, but those extra 800 years just might make a difference. It certainly did with Christianity.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

23. while all that is true

you have too look at the progression of the world around you as well...both Christianity and Islam came out of the dark ages at the same time (and arguably Islam was far ahead of Christianity at the time in terms of enlightenment). I think the only way to attack the fundamentalists of the religion is to try to bring their countries out of the dark ages in which they still live.

sP

[JerseygirlCT]

90. That is most certainly true. And it was particularly difficult

to separate the religious from the political in those times, and in countries where they are essentially still in the dark ages in many ways.

[Zhade]

132. You're arguing with people who feel their made-up mythology is superior to OTHER made-up mythology.

Of course the point was missed!

[SidDithers]

28. Death threats are reserved for only the most serious offenses...

like stealing a communion wafer.

Sid

[ProdigalJunkMail]

29. or drawing a picture of the Prophet...

or getting raped without enough witnesses to PROVE you were raped and didn't just 'give into lust.'

sP

[cherokeeprogressive]

84. Or, as Theo Van Gogh did, make a movie.

Shot eight times, nearly decapitated, and unwitting message deliverer, by way of the note that was stuck to his chest with one of the two knives buried in it.

[Zhade]

133. SNAP.

NT!

[Occam Bandage]

36. When Muslims start bombing abortion clinics, dragging gay teens behind pickups,

and funding foreign militaries with the goal of bringing about the end times...

[cherokeeprogressive]

85. I confess that I don't read enough, but

could you tell me what country is funding what foreign country with the goal of "bringing about the end times"? I swear that's one I wasn't aware of. Where could I find that goal stated? Surely it must be in writing somewhere. Is there a record of funding?

I know that I may sound argumentive, but I'm being totally honest here.

[Occam Bandage]

155. I never said a *country* did it. Did I?

[Popol Vuh]

152. See what you fail to take into account

Is that the christians beat the islamists to it already. The crusades, the inquisitions, the witch hunts and the mass genocide of the infidels heathens. The christians slaughtered my ancestors and kidnapped our children for forced reeducation proclaiming we heathens (savages) needed to be saved from ourselves.

Now that most of the dirt (blood) can be swept under the rug, its rather convenient for christians to act all innocent and righteous. But nobody has more blood on their hands to force their dogma than the christian church. Lets not forget the millions upon millions of victims who were horrifically murdered and tortured at the hands of the christian church to enforce upon the world its dogma.

[Greyhound]

154. Oh no, that happened before and we are all about "looking forward".

Sorry about your ancestors, but they were inconveniently living on our land, and they were terrible slaves.

[Goblinmonger]

165. Take a look at what the Catholic church

did to those that produced plays without the church's consent in the dark ages. Really nice stuff. Technically not cartoons, I guess, but certainly over an art form.

[Duppers]

173. it depends on the time frame

"Most Christians today do not have the same mindset that Christians had 100 yrs ago, most practitioners of Islam have not changed."

I got this in an email today from a friend who runs an atheist group in another state:

"Islam Must Be Criticized All the Time"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLQLH4pWAT4

You think the Religious right in America is a problem now!

(Please do not criticize until the have carefully listened to the entire video. He also included this) :

Here's a tough question:
If a person is legally married to multiple spouses in their home country? THEN they move to the U.S and apply for citizenship.... Should they have to get rid of all but one of their extra partners to become an citizen?

That's the question that England has had to come to grips with recently, dealing with the large number of Muslim immigrants..

And they decided that, even though polygamy is illegal in Britain, the Muslims can keep their marriage intact. And not only that, but if they fall into welfare status, the state will still offer them, their multiple spouses, and extended number of children federal support.

Will likely come to America shortly? What do you think we should, as Americans, should do?

Tell them they can't have citizenship as long as they don't abide by our laws?

Accept Polygamy for Muslims and change the laws just for them?

If so, what would we tell the Mormons?

Later!
Xxxxx
===================================================================

UK: Muslim Polygamy To Be Subsidized By Government
February 3, 2008

The Sunday Telegraph has confirmed what has long been suspected - the British government has decided that it will officially recognize polygamous marriages. The only proviso is that these marriages have taken place in countries where this is not illegal. As a result, men with more than one wife can claim welfare benefits for extra spouses.

In May last year, the Department of Work and Pensions declared that there were fewer than 1,000 polygamous marriages in Britain. This is what we wrote on May 29, 2007:

UK: Taxes Fund Muslim Polygamy

On April 18, the Daily Mail revealed that even though polygamy is illegal in Britain, guidelines from the Department of Work and Pensions approved the funding of such illegal unions. DWP guidelines on council and housing benefits state: "If you were legally married to more than one partner under the laws of a country that permits this, then your relationship is called a polygamous marriage. In this case your household consists of you and any partners who live with you and to whom you are married."

When the Daily Mail made the report, it stated that DWP officials were reviewing whether the state should "continue to pay out income support, jobseeker's allowance and housing and council tax benefits to 'extra' spouses."

Yesterday, the Times reported that the UK government has finally admitted for the first time that almost 1,000 men are currently living in polygamous unions in Britain. Apparently, the government has been assailed for years to provide figures, but has only now responded as a request from the Times was answered under the terms of the Freedom of Information Act.

Read more at:
http://www.westernresistance.com/blog/archives/003965.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/791263.stm

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/1577395/Multiple-wives-will-mean-multi ple-benefits.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2002/03/18/npoly17.xml

[The Straight Story]

4. Kind of like asking "Are dems to all that different than the repugs?"

Given what I have seen in congress I would say 'not much' ;)

Radical anything implies on the very face of it something bad - so asking if one radical thing is a lot different than another is a loaded question IMHO.

[Bill McBlueState]

9. Well, they both claim there's one god

But Christians say the one god is actually three people, while Muslims will have none of that. You'd think the number of people who make up a god would be pretty easy to figure out if that god actually exists.

[Greyhound]

27. I think it's just the Catholics that believe in the trinity. n/t

[ProdigalJunkMail]

30. ummm...no...

i think most of the christian sects believe in the trinity...

sP

[Greyhound]

61. I write corrected. n/t

[Occam Bandage]

32. The only "Christians" that do not

are splinter groups such as the Mormons, which many Christians believe are not Christians at all because of their nontrinitarianism.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

35. i think the Jehovah's Witnesses believe

that there is one God...Jesus was a really good guy...and that the Holy Spirit is an impersonal force...but I don't think that would count as a triune God. Mormons and JWs are the only two sects I can think of that claim to be christian and yet do not believe in the trinity.

[Greyhound]

62. ditto above. n/t

[loyalsister]

153. My God can beat up your God.....

..... maybe just my God is so much better than your God that we have to fight about who will be better human beings if we believe our own beliefs. Belief in belief is a dangerous thing....

It is most certainly an influence in this war. http://www.slate.com/id/2081432/

Be sure that our soldiers are praying.
Whether this translates into religious bigotry depends on the context, the kind of command, intensity, and a soldiers personal independence.

[niceypoo]

14. Christianity is basically a gigantic suicide cult...

...particularily the born again's. Their stated ultimate goal is, 'armageddon,' the total extermination of humanity.

I don't recall the muslim religion calling for a human apocalypse, correct me if I am wrong...

[Occam Bandage]

34. Most Christians are not millenialists.

[treestar]

80. It's inherent to the religion, though.

It's in the book of Revelation, so ultimately a Christian is called upon to believe that the Apocolypse will happen.

There's always at least a few nuts reading Revelation into the events of the day and finding that we are in the End Times.

And look how much political power they have gained with *. If they aren't squelched, Christianity will do far more damage to humanity than Islam could ever dream of. Radical Muslims just want Western nations out of the middle east. Radical Christians expect all of humanity to go up in flames.

[JerseygirlCT]

89. A Christian is NOT, by any means, required to accept the

bible as factual. The majority of the world's Christians don't read scripture that way at all. And even among those who lean that way, many do not believe Revelations to be any sort of prophesy of future events.

Allegory, metaphor, the power of stories and parable... most of the oldest Christian traditions understand that the truth of scripture is not to be confused with "facts". The Bible is neither a textbook nor a rule book.

[Zhade]

135. If you don't take the bible to be factual (and good for you, it's not)...

...why in the world do christians state that jesus is "factual" and "exists", especially since there's essentially zero evidence he ever did?

[JerseygirlCT]

148. It's actually quite related.

In this example, you're also expecting "factual" to be the measure. And it's not. It's about faith - which, by definition means accepting and believing that which isn't proven.

I cannot prove Jesus existed. I simply believe that to be so. I believe in the presence of God, because I experience that presence. I wouldn't expect to conduct a scientific experiment to prove that, because it's not possible. I take it on faith, and because of a sense of mine beyond the intellectual, beyond this world.

For me, demanding provable and factual to be the standard short-changes the whole thing. In the same way, reading the Bible as textbook or rulebook does the same. It misses entire layers of meaning and "truth" beyond that of our physical experience. Scripture works best and most meaningfully, IMO, as a living document, open to new meanings and interpretations for each new generation - in fact, for each individual. Likewise an experience of the divine.

[Occam Bandage]

104. If you're a fundamentalist, sure. Most Christians aren't fundamentalists.

And even still it's a far cry from "someday there will be an apocalypse, the world will burn, people will suffer, Christ will come again, and the Kingdom of God shall reign" to "We must destroy the world."

[spoony]

159. Will you be voting for our suicidal cultist this November?

[La Lioness Priyanka]

24. radical christians tend to be in richer countries. richer people tend to use less desperate measures

since they have more to lose.

[treestar]

81. Amen! this is it exactly!

It's not because Christians are inherently more peaceful and less violent. It's that they have an entire military structure to carry the violence out for them.

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

100. Lotsa truth in one sentence, lioness, espec. for the modern world

But the history of Xtianity shows that is more than willing to slaughter en masse when it feels threatened (the Crusades, the witch hunts, the Reformation wars, the Inquisition, etc, etc)

[Donald Ian Rankin]

145. The most radical Christians tend to be the Africans.

So I think the first half of your claim is wrong, but arguably that just strengthens the second half of it.

That said, Saudi Arabia is a possible counter example, I think, as are possibly some of the other gulf states.

[fascisthunter]

149. ah... I agree with that

one's revolutionary is another's terrorist too


the world really is not black and white but I can see why people have that tendency to make it so. Reality can be very scary at times.

[LostInAnomie]

25. The radicals have different goals.

The Christian radicals' goal is to bring about the Rapture.

The Islamic radicals' goal is to create a global Islamic empire under Islamic law.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

26. both dead on the money...

and neither can happen...

1) Even Jesus said that no one would know the day or hour...so why work for it? (i realize that requires reading the bible and using logic and that may be difficult for the people about whom you are posting!)
2) Islam is too fractured to succeed in a one world Islamic Empire...Caliphate...

sP

[Occam Bandage]

31. "The purpose was to spread their religion at the point of a sword"

Well, I'd disagree.

The Crusades were launched for several reasons, ranging from the Papacy's desire to turn the teeth of the rapacious post-Viking military class against an outsider, to the effectiveness of Byzantine agitation (with the goal of returning their lost territories)--which capitalized on a popular Western desire to find an outlet for the recent resurgence of Christian piety, and which materialized as a desire to return the recently lost holy cities of Christianity to Christian rule. Neither converting Muslims to Christianity nor spreading the borders of Christiandom were particular goals.

[anonymous171]

38. You meant "fundamentalist christianity" right?

If you did, then I totally agree with you.

[ieoeja]

40. Was there any other kind in 1300 AD?

Everyone seems to be missing the OP's point here. Islam is 1300 years old. Is Islam today that much worse than Christianity when it was 1300 years old?

[ProdigalJunkMail]

41. please see post #23 n/t

[undeterred]

91. Christian Fundamentalism is less than 200 years old

and we shouldn't confuse the issue by lumping all pre-scientific faith in with today's Fundmentalism.

Most Christian Fundamentalists adhere to specific interpretations of the Bible that are very literal. Most of them do not live under conditions where they are actually oppressed. While they may be harsh and favor things like the death penalty and torture- few of them out there are practicing torture and killing.

Some Islamic Fundamentalists do perceive themselves as oppressed by America. While their faith is usually interpreted peacefully- they use it to legitimize killing and suicide bombings. Its a radical politicization of faith. While Christian fundamentalists may favor wars and the end of the world, they aren't volunteering for the army to bring this about- they're hoping that other people do the dirty work and they get to go to heaven. Radical Islamic fundamentalists are willing to take these actions themselves.

[anonymous171]

107. Funny how they feed into eachother.

[undeterred]

109. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam

are the 3 historical religions of the book- and they are forever related by their common history and literature.

[Adsos Letter]

42. As a Christian actively involved in supporting Church/State separation...

please allow me to recommend Jeff Sharlet's "The Family" if you want further fuel for rage.

The trainwreck that results, historically, from religion in politics and vice-versa, continues apace.

I can only read a chapter at a time without cycling between rage and depression.

[wvbygod]

43. Which is bombing innocents in the name of their "god"

Aside from a couple of abortion clinic bombings which do you think is killing people
by the thousands with acts of terror?

[lukasahero]

53. "aside from a couple of abortion clinics" - - why? don't those women and drs matter?

Throughout history, radical religion, primarily Muslim and Christian, has killed many thousands. Hilter wasn't Muslim.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

63. and you really cannot argue that Hitler was much

of a christian either...i mean, i can claim to be anything i want but if you pay attention to my actions you can tell...and as far as teh drs and such at abortion clinics...once again, it is orders of magnitudes less violence than has been committed by the suicide bombers from radical islam...

sP

[Zhade]

138. Complete horseshit - the only criteria establishing one as a christian is self-profession as one.

NT!

[ProdigalJunkMail]

146. then i am a bologna sandwich...

what tripe... (no pun intended!)

sP

[Zhade]

137. b*s* - "God told me to invade Iraq".

Sorry you don't like the facts.

[High Plains]

157. I dunno. Whose Air Force is flying those bombing missions?

We've been blowing up about a wedding party a week in Afghanistan lately.

[Evoman]

44. I don't know....let me have sex with this Jesus cracker and see what hapens....

[Nye Bevan]

50. Hmmm. Try exhibiting a "Piss Mohammed" of the Prophet submerged in urine

and see what happens, compared to when Piss Christ was created.

Remember that fatwa the Pope issued against Andres Serrano? Me neither.

[treestar]

82. Was anyone actually killed over those cartoons?

I think not.

[cherokeeprogressive]

87. Ask the same question about a 10 minute movie.

Critical of Muslim treatment of women.

Um, I think so.

[Goblinmonger]

166. Create the Piss Christ

when Christianity was 1300 years old. What would happen to you? THAT is the point of the OP.

[noonwitch]

54. Radical Islam has better weapons for their reformation than christians did during theirs

Nobody had nukes in the middle ages and renaissance, or anthrax, or airplanes that could be crashed into trees.

[ProdigalJunkMail]

57. and from this christian...thank GOD for that

can you imagine the christians with nukes in the dark ages... that would have been one short Inquisition!

sP

[anonymous171]

111. And yet we still managed to kill tons of people during our reformative years.

I shudder to think what would happen if those events had taken place with our current military technology.

[RedCappedBandit]

58. Christianity = Islam = Judaism

and they're all ridiculous and insane. And they all cause death and destruction.

[spoony]

160. Will you be voting for our ridiculous, insane, death-hungry candidate this November?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

59. 700 years ago, arguable either way; today, not even close.

One could make a case that Christianity 700 years ago was as wicked on average as Islam today is; one could also make a case that it wasn't; one could possibly even make a case that it was worse.

But today, the difference is obvious and massive; Western liberals who try to claim that Islam is no worse on average than Christianity are massively lacking in perspective.

And please, *please* note the "on average", and hence don't present individual counter-examples as refutations, or accuse me of blanket smears.

[11 Bravo]

67. I compared the two religions at comparable stages in their development.

Explain to me why that's not the most honest way to obtain perspective.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

69. I wouldn't say that "time since inception" is terribly important.

At least not past the first few lifetimes. After that, I don't think there's any evidence that religions progress in a systematic direction, as opposed to simply changing through random drift.

I think comparing two religions at the same time - now if you're interested in ethics or politics, or at the same time in history if you're interested in history or the developement of ideas - is a much more worthwhile exercise.

[Starry Messenger]

78. It is an interesting proposal

It made me poke around a bit to see what the Christians were up to in 1300. It seems by then, the reconquistas had eradicated the moorish spanish culture that had existed in most of spain for several centuries of the middle ages. And the european Kingdom of Jerusalem was coming to an end around 1299.

I don't have a big point to make in this thread, just wanted to let you know I was thinking about it.

MPK

[Codeine]

68. Islam and Christianity

are equally repulsive, disgusting, and abhorrent crimes against the human spirit. Neither should be tolerated in the slightest by anybody who considers themselves progressive. Religion is, almost by definition, regressive.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

70. That's a) extremely hyperbolical, and b) more than a little unfair to Christianity.

I hold no brief whatsoever for Christianity, but it does far, far less harm than Islam, and the views of Christians are, on average, far less illiberal than the views of Muslims (although still more so on average than the views of atheists).

And suggesting that we shouldn't "tolerate" religion is just venting, I hope, rather than expressing a considered opinion.

[Codeine]

73. Venting.

Chalk it up to a bad day.

[a la izquierda]

103. Hey tell that to the millions of dead

native peoples of the western hemisphere, forced to convert at the point of a sword or frequently burn, or worse. Tell that to their priests and holy women. Tell that to families torn apart because children were taken from homes and indoctrinated, taught to spy on their parents who were considered "idolaters".
Oh, wait...

ps I'm Catholic.

[Occam Bandage]

105. Which were no more victims of Catholicism than

the millions of civilian dead in the Sino-Japanese war were victims of Shintoism.

[a la izquierda]

108. Perhaps you should do a little reading.

True that many native peoples died of diseases to which they had no immunity.

That is not what I was talking about. I was talking about murder in the name of God. For not converting.

[Occam Bandage]

110. Perhaps you should do a little reading.

True that many civilians died of exposure or starvation during the war.

That is not what I was talking about. I was talking about the Chinese civilians of Nanjing who were butchered wholesale by Japanese soldiers...for the crime of surrendering to them. They had broken the Samurai code of honor, ingrained in the ancient religion of Shinto, and were treated accordingly. Were they victims of religion?

Of course not. They, like the natives killed in the Americas, were victims of expansionist imperialism, for which religion was but a thin varnish of "civilization" applied over cruel and sadistic xenophobic inhumanity.

[a la izquierda]

112. The conquistadors had no care for religion

but the priests most certainly did. And many, many of them were vicious butchers.
I'm not talking about conquistadors, merchant-settlers, fur-traders. I'm talking about the disgusting deeds of men of the cloth. We're talking about two different things.
Yes, natives were killed in an expansionist orgy of violence. Was this based on religion? God no, at least not deep down.
However, the deeds of Diego de Landa, et al., *were* absolutely, positively based upon extinguishing the native belief system at its core. And he was murderous in doing so. This was repeated throughout the western hemisphere, though I know Latin America the best. It was distinct from the expansionist mindframe of the conquistadors, who frequently were at odds with the priests. Xenophobia was a part of it, but religion was at the heart.
Keep in mind, not all priests were barbarians.

Claim otherwise all you want. If you haven't read some of the memoirs of these priests, you cannot possibly argue this successfully with me. Sorry.

[Occam Bandage]

113. And there were many Japanese officers who strongly believed

that they were authorizing what was honorable and just by their religion, and wrote as much in their memoirs, which have been preserved for history. The priests who were dedicated to stamping out heathenism and justified murder on their faith were in no different of a mindset. Religion is an outlet for zealotry and a justification for xenophobia; it is not a driving force behind cruelty.

[JerseygirlCT]

164. Yes. Well said. nt

[Occam Bandage]

106. Dupe of course

[Dreamer Tatum]

124. Heh....wheeeeee

Man, I love DU.

[spoony]

161. Will you be voting for our...

repulsive, disgusting, regressive candidate this November?

[Fire Walk With Me]

74. One blood-thirsty extremist is the same any other.

And is oft mistaken as representative of the entirety of any organization they happen to be a part of.

[Jack Rabbit]

75. Depends on what Christians you mean

one should never conflate the Christianity of Fred Phelps with that of St. Francis of Assisi.

Nevertheless, if your talking about some of the extremist types around today, there is some comparison. The biggest difference between Osama bin Laden and Eric Rudolph is that the former attracts a large enough following to do more serious damage.

[defendandprotect]

116. Well, I take it that when we are talking about "Christiantiy," we mean the hierarchy ....

not the members ---

Though we might question why anyone still supports organized patriarchal religions ---
especially females . . . ??? !!!

-- Or families with daughters, for that matter . . .

But St. Francis of Assisi told the church that animals had spirits . . .
thus exploitation of animals -- "Manifest Destiny" --- would be immoral --
and his teachings were denied, weren't they?

Mainly, from what I can see . . . Jesus was a Commie -- and they need a fascist warrior.

[fla nocount]

76. The Grimm Brothers don't play favorites,

the only truth is our own individual and subjective reality. Objectively shared reality is a fairy tale and for most of it's victims, Hansel and Gretel for instance, notably ugly.

[NNN0LHI]

83. Tim McVeigh received Catholic last rites and supposedly went straight to heaven after being executed

I don't want to go nowhere near where he his.

Don

[SmileyRose]

121. I believe that's a misstatement on the meaning of Last Rites

Though I no longer consider myself one, I was raised Catholic. It may be in print someplace I'm not aware of, but everything I have ever read or been taught about Last Rites is that it includes 3 parts Penance, Annointing of the Sick, and the Eucharist. Whether or not McVeigh goes to Heaven or not would depend upon whether his Penance was truly complete. Though one never knows the mind and heart of someone else, I highly doubt someone like McVeigh was capable of understanding the full measure of his sin in order to make a complete Penance.

Most of what people think of as "last rites" is actually just the annointing part. Which is only intended to give the sick and dying comfort in the midst of pain and trial. It is in no way intended to wipe sin away.

[defendandprotect]

122. Well, that also gets you into the question of Confession and why middle-men to

forgiveness . . .

Everything I learned as a Catholic was based on asking for forgiveness before death and
being forgiven.

You don't need middle-men --- and, in fact, Pope John XXIII reaffirmed that in Vatican II,
which the right-wing in the church has been trying to overturn -- rather successfully --
since then!


Meanwhile, of course . . . sanity tells us that there is no such thing as Hell . . .
it is a patriarchal concept based on their own fears, hatred and confusions.
There is no Hell in the old religions based on nature.


And here is the continuing effort to confuse members about that and put "Confession"
back in their lives.

Catholic Church States World's Largest Confessional in Sydney

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/pope_australia_confessions_dc

[SmileyRose]

131. Even protestants have confession.

It's not an official doctrine of course but there's a reason Jimmy Swaggart felt like he had to stand in front of the whole church and tell everyone he was gettin' nasty with a prostitute on the QT. Some folks don't need it, but some just can't emotionally or spiritually get past their own mistakes until they managed to say what they did out loud for someone else to hear and hold them accountable. It's why group meetings for addicts are often effective. Telling other people out loud you are an (insert addiction here) not only allows other people to help guide you back to wholeness but it also helps you "own" your behavior.

[defendandprotect]

142. Well . . . no . . .

Protestants, as I recall it, stand up all together and simply either say "I confess" or
ask for forgiveness. I don't think all Protestant churches do this . . .

Catholics had a very formal system of confession ---
You had to enter a box, individually, and tell your sins to a priest --
in a very formal manner --

and hear your penance --
which had to be carried out before you could receive communion or be again "in a state of grace."

Protestants have none of these pre-condiitons for receiving communion.

Also keep in mind that children are trained to think in this way from very early ages ---
to confess.

Trained to think in terms of middle-men to god . . .

[BlooInBloo]

93. Religion is for the weak of mind.

[spoony]

162. Will you be voting for our weak-minded candidate this November?

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

97. Not one bit

The goal of both is to subjugate and extort at the point of a sword. Mankind will never progress until it throws off the Iron Age mythologies concocted by illiterate desert tribes.

[fla nocount]

99. Like the rhetoric, like the avatar, welcome. n/t

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

101. Aww thanks

:hi: :pals: :blush:

I've been around off and on for ages as MNChimpH8R. Switched from Win to Mac and DU doesn't recognize me anymore.:tinfoilhat: :wtf:

[1]

114. sorry. its 2008. and the next time i watch a christian lop off the head of a muslim it will be...

the first time.

your history lesson is compelling but weak.



epic fail.

try again...

[Malikshah]

119. How about mowing down civilians left right and center?

Sorry-- that little self-righteous rant doesn't work

1 million+ dead civilians from a war of choice led by a talibornagain asswipe and cheered on by Christian zealots throughout the country.

Get off the pedestal--it's made of skulls.

[Name removed]

140. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Malikshah]

147. Now there is a classy response.

How is living in that bridge? Having any trouble with the three billygoats lately?

It appears you have absolutely no knowledge of the last five years' worth of events in Iraq or the US.

Enjoy the oblivion.

[Occam Bandage]

156. So, is it your opinion that no civilians have died in Iraq?

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

120. Umm no

The Dominionists who control the fundie movement want to reinstitute "biblical" punishments like stoning to death for adultery or homosexuality. Ring any bells?

[Dreamer Tatum]

125. Oh yeah...all six of them want to do that.

:eyes:

[FKA MNChimpH8R]

139. Google "The Family" or National Prayer Breakfast

or Doug Coe and then tell me again how few of these freaks there are and how little influence they have. The Dominionists are hiding in plain sight. Read this and associated threads right here on DU: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x3597605

[Starry Messenger]

123. hmm

Probably going to regret this, but I read 11 Bravo's post as comparing Christianity c. 1300 to Muslim c. 2008. I read it to say that perhaps the 1300 year mark was a time of radical growing pains for a religion.

If you had a time machine to 1300 ad you would probably see some Christian lopping-off-of-heads-of-Muslims. I'm not sure where the epic fail is there exactly.

I'm an atheist and could give a tinker's cuss about the whole she-bang. In 2008 we've got religious leaders on all sides beating the drums for hate because it fills coffers. Cynical religious leaders are smiling over their bank statements while these fights take place "down here".

My .02

MPK

[knitter4democracy]

168. You might want to read some history.

Like what Spain's Christian king and queen did the to the Muslims at the same time they sent Cristobal Columbo here. Or the long-simmering war between Turkey and the Islamic empires and Eastern Europe.

[defendandprotect]

115. No -- and they both continue to war on women ---

very nice post ---

[Dreamer Tatum]

128. Give me a fucking break

Tell you what: pick up the typical American lefty lifestyle, preferences, and belief system, and plop it down
in the fundamentalist Islamic area of your choice. Tell me how that works out for you and your severed head.

Now take that same typical American lefty lifestyle and belief system and plop it down in the United States, and
tell me how...oh, wait. YOU ALREADY DID THAT. And you're so safe, you have a cozy forum of 100,000+ like minded people
to commisserate with.

[fla nocount]

134. Ever try Jackson, Mississippi.................

on a Saturday night Habib? Or last night in Washington DC? Six killed.

[Starry Messenger]

136. indeed!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Victims_of_anti-LGBT_hate_crimes

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/hate.jsp

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Ridgway


MPK

[ProdigalJunkMail]

158. let's see...

anti-LGBT hate crimes page (see how they fare in Islamic countries)

hate group page (looks like a lot of racial issues there...not so much religious though there are some...doesn't look like they have killed the thousands that the suicide bombers have killed in the name of religion)

and what the hell does Rigdway have to do with religious hate? he hated women...probably thanks to his mother's treatment of him...

sP

[Starry Messenger]

163. This was in reply to #128

Sorry, it was sort of a knee jerk post on my part late last night...mostly in response to my perceived take on the posters "Not in the good ol USA" sensibilities. Ridgway I threw in there because he was active in a "typical American lefty lifestyle and belief system" area (Seattle).

I agree about his mom issues.

I just don't think Christian countries have as much to brag about as they might think on human rights issues, and that's all I'm going to add to this, since I see the thread has been moved to R/T and will now proceed to get very silly.

Sorry I was unclear.

MPK

[fascisthunter]

150. see post 24

it's not as bad, but consider how many right wing extremists in this country who wished it was legal to exterminate liberals. They already call us terrorists in our own country on mainstream corporately controlled propaganda outlets like FOX. Listen to right wing AM radio....

We are looking more and more like Saudi Arabia, thanks to the right wing.

[LostinVA]

141. Radical Islam is not any different than Radical Christianity

Islamism is not any different than Christianity.

Liberal Islamism is different than liberal Christianity. Liberals Christians are more liberal than liberal Islamics.

[Skittles]

143. no

they're all nonsense

[knitter4democracy]

167. Don't put the Crusades on all of us.

Some of us were the victims of those damn things. Don't forget there's a whole other half of Christianity that never had the Crusades (instead had our churches pillaged and burnt, our clergy murdered, and our libraries plundered), the Reformation, or the Inquisition.

Not that we Eastern Orthodox have a great history with our Muslim brothers and sisters, but that's been more over territory than anything else. Even so, we have much to apologize for.

[JerseygirlCT]

170. Well...

I'm not sure the Byzantines were entirely free of complicity, though their political maneuvering surely did end up biting them in the butt on a few Crusades! Invite that lot of rowdy, semi-civilized barbarians in, and you're apt to have a mess to clean up!

[ironbark]

169. I don't know if it has been raised in the thread

but West Wing covered it-

"Terrorism is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity"

PS-
"The Crusades. The purpose was to spread their religion at the point of a sword, and non-believers were held to be deserving of death."

You will find a number of historians who will point out that Europe suffered a crisis of aristocracy ie- too many princes, barons, lords and not enough land/principalities.

Religion became the excuse and justification for the New Kingdom/s land grab.

Follow the money……always….follow the money.

[JerseygirlCT]

171. I agree with you on the Crusades

And it's a good example of how religion is often used for political ends. Were some of the people marching off truly motivated by some twisted sense of religious passion? Sure. But the people pulling the strings? This was all political, wrapped up in religious paper.

[TechBear_Seattle]

172. Islam is now about where Christianity was in 1300

Think about it.