Sincere question: To those who believe in the after life would you take offense at this

[YankeyMCC]

My aunt died on Friday and during the course of the conversation with my mother when she broke the news to me we of course began discussing what my cousin was planning in terms of services etc...

My aunt was divorced and unfortunately it was a somewhat contentious parting and she still had anger towards her ex-husband. But my cousin still has a good and loving relationship with her father.

During the conversation of service plans the topic of who would be there came up naturally and my mother said that my cousin would respect my aunt's wishes and not invite her father to the service (the divorce was about 20 years ago).

I said "Is that what she wants?" meaning my cousin.

Tension suddenly entered the conversation, my mother became very defensive and repeated that it was what my aunt would want and my cousin was respecting that.

I said ok, but that I hope it was what my cousin wanted and what was best for her. My concern was more for the living since to my mind being dead means you have no more desires and no more need of comfort and support.

But my mother seemed put off even offended that I should even suggest giving the desires and needs of my cousin priority over the imagined desires of my dead aunt.

Is my offense one of omission, in that I didn't somehow re-affirm my mother's belief that a dead person still has desires and those should take precendence?

I seriously can not think of another view that could explain why someone who believes in the afterlife would be offended by someone expression priority concern for the living?

Am I missing something?

I am sincere in asking, I'm having trouble maintaining harmonious relationships with my family since I've been open about my atheism and raising my son as an atheist and I'm trying to examine my own approaches and reactions to see what I can do to improve.

[stillcool]

1. I don't think that has..

anything to do with an after-life, that has to do with this life.

[napi21]

2. I would think your cousin would also want what her Mother desired.

AFAIK that's how it usually works. Kinda like an extention of a LastWill & Testament only unwritten.

[colonel odis]

3. maybe it's a matter of what your aunt WOULD have wanted, were she still alive.

that's the way i'd look at it, personally. saying that's what she wants, present tense, could be the stress of the loss of her sister coming out. people get to thinking funny things around death.

obviously, funerals are for the living, rather than the dead.

[Debau2005]

4. My parents had been divorced 15 years

when my father died. He and I were NOT close, he had been mentally abusive when we were kids. I helped my brother with arrangements and went to the service to support him. My mother went to support his as well. It was what my brother wanted.

My mother sat at the back of the service, and stood near the back at the graveside.

I believe if your cousin takes comfort in this difficult time with her father there, then he should be there for her.

Funerals are for the living, not for the dead. I also realize that families say things they may not mean in the passion and hurt of the moment.

[Jackpine Radical]

5. We respect the wishes of the deceased in a lot of ways--wills, etc.--

that may or may not have anything to do with the afterlife.

Think of it this way--Some social contracts extend beyond this life. Would you feel better or worse knowing that your wishes will be honored after your death? Is it not enough to believe that we honor the wishes of the deceased in order that our own posthumous wishes will someday be honored?

[gateley]

6. I feel that life is for the living -- and that those who have gone on

have a much broader acceptance and understanding than we do when we're here in the middle of it. It's my belief that when we die, we 'get it' and don't take all that emotional baggage with us.

If your cousin is okay with it, then I'd let it be. She and her father probably understand. It might just be more painful for your cousin to insist on her father's presence knowing it was upsetting your mom.

[Uben]

7. Funerals are for the living

....but a tribute to the deceased. I just never interject my feelings towards others responsibilities. Personally, I don't care if they burn me, bury me, or let me rot. I'll be in the GREAT DU in the sky!

[moggie]

13. There's no DU after you get a tombstone n/t

[ZombieHorde]

26. I imagine that many of the tombstoned reincarnate with a new user name.

[ZombieHorde]

27. Your family members are grieving, and therefore, not thinking straight.

It may be best to simply communicate your feelings and then just go with the flow.

When I go to other people's weddings or funerals, I keep my mouth shut and I do what I am told to do.

Edit: Oops! I posted this as a reply to my own post. Sorry.

[LeftinOH]

8. The funeral service and any associated gatherings are for the living

-not for the benefit of the deceased.. Thats always been the feeling in our family..and we've had lots of funerals.

[YankeyMCC]

9. Clarification

this is not a conversation I had with my cousin nor would I insist she have her father there. When I do talk with her and if the subject comes up I would express support for whatever choice she thinks best, I would ask the question of which would make her feel better.

And I recognize that we do respect some desires past death via wills etc...and that seems appropriate to me at least to an extent. What I'm confused about is my mother taking offense at the suggestion that the desires of the living should take priority.

[RaleighNCDUer]

10. Two points:

All arguments end with death.

Funerals are for the living, not the dead.

IMO, unless the ex-husband was criminally culpable for something that caused his ex's death there is no reason to banish him from the funeral - it could be a good thing, to help mend fences or make amends for something that went bad. Very few people go into a marriage with the intent of ruining their spouse's life.

From a religious viewpoint (speaking as an atheist myself) it seems that those who are concerned about the AFTERlife must consider that the deceased is also wholly concerned with the afterlife - their concerns about THIS life are done with. I made no objection when my life-long (unspoken) atheist father was given a religious going away in two memorials - one in his home town where his side of the family live, the other in my mom's home town where his ashes are buried. He did have a more secular sendoff in the town where he lived in his last years. An actor even after he died, he played to the house. Back where he came from it was unthinkable to his or his wife's families that he not get a religious memorial. To his immediate family, it was unquestioned that he would get a secular funeral. In both cases, it was what the LIVING expected.

Just my $.02.

[cosmik debris]

11. I didn't know you had to be "invited" to a funeral.

That thought never even occurred to me.

These religious rituals are soooo strange.

[YankeyMCC]

12. Well that was probably not quiet the right word

but I think the point was that she would not ask him to come up (he lives in another state) and ask him to stay away if he did express a desire to come.

[cosmik debris]

15. It's still pretty bizarre when you think about it.

Carrying that much hate all the way to the grave...

Passing your hate on to the next generation...

Using a funeral to express your scorn rather than your grief...

It's a strange world.

[Marrah_G]

23. There usually isn't an "invitation" but people know when they are not welcome.

People know when showing up will cause others pain or simply be in bad taste.

[tama]

14. Hmm

"my mind being dead means you have no more desires and no more need of comfort and support."

As seeing no reason why life and lives should be limited to this one round on material level, there is no reason to believe that desires and need of comfort and support when material body ceases to function.

I believe that best we can do to our dead is to let them depart and go their own ways, instead of demanding that they stay here to comfort us, still living this form of life. Letting go, with thanks of sharing.

In fact, important part of shamanistic, buddhist etc. practices is calming the dead and aiding them to find peace.

Nough said, you are free to draw your own conclusions.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. I would hope that someone who had gone into the next dimension

would have left behind all the pettiness of their previous existence.

[Marrah_G]

17. Simple respect for the dead - It's not a difficult concept.

[YankeyMCC]

18. It is a difficult concept

at least in the aspect of agreement between people of different beliefs about what gives value to life as to what 'respect' means. I have respect for the dead by the memories I keep and the lessons I take from their lives and the benefits I receive from what good they created while they lived.

But this is not the point of my question. My question was why my expression of concern - respect for the living - seemed to offend my mother. Or stated more generally, why do people who feel that 'respect for the dead' include honoring wishes like this that may actually be detremental to the living get offended if those that do not share this view don't express support for that view - not an expression of disparagement but just no expression of encouragement and a express concern for the living over the 'respect for the dead.

I made no disparaging or dismissive remarks about 'respecting the wishes of my aunt'. I did not express agreement with that sentiment but neither did I express disagreement I merely expressed a hope that my cousin's choice would be the right one for her, help her the most get through a sad time.

Why that would offend someone is my question.

[Dorian Gray]

20. You have to ask your mom why it offended her

though I suspect she was a party to her sister's contentious relationship with her ex-husband, and doesn't want that painful time brought up or remembered at the funeral, a time for her to try to say a peaceful goodbye to her sister.

[YankeyMCC]

21. I asked the general case

because my mother is just an example. I find the same response from others who have a belief in the after life.

[Dorian Gray]

24. I don't understand

what this has to do with the afterlife at all.

Your aunt had an unpleasant relationship with her ex. Having the ex at her funeral would be a reminder to all the living people there that he had made her extremely unhappy. I'm sure that for everyone involved it's easier not to have him there, regardless of whether your aunt has any post-death consciousness or afterlife.

Why would people who loved your aunt want to be reminded about her unhappy times and relationships at her funeral where they are memorializing her?

But that's my take on it. Why your mother or any other individual would react negatively to the suggestion, I don't know. It might be because they believe she's looking down on the funeral from the next life, disapproving of the guest list. Who knows?

[YankeyMCC]

25. I don't know what it has to do with the afterlife

but it is a common reaction I see...hence my question and apparently you have the same question.

[Marrah_G]

22. I don't think your remarks are offensive

I also think your intentions are good. The child needs to make their own decision on what would be best for themselves and keep in respecting their deceased parents wishes. Also there are other relatives to be concerned over. This is not a good time to be adding any undue drama to the day. Often a bad relationship can bring pain to MANY people.

Someone mentioned about a parent attending the other parents funeral but staying in the back, there for their child if needed but also not flaunting what might have been a bad relationship in the faces of those who may have been effected by it.

Fortunately for my children, their father and I get along well and this will never be an issue.

I think how we handle issues regarding the dead depend on local or community culture, mixed with religious views.

Here, the wishes of the dead generally out-weigh the wishes of the living. An example would be myself. If I died I would be cremated and a memorial service performed within the standards of my religion would be performed, regardless of the wishes of my parents. If they were to have be buried as a Catholic, it would be seen as being in poor taste as it would go against my wishes. My parents might not be seen as being offensive to my children for suggesting it, but were they to push the issue it would not be looked upon well.

[Dorian Gray]

19. I think your concern for your cousin

is respectful of her, but her desire to respect her mother's wishes, even if painful for her, is admirable. I would do the same thing as your cousin. Her father can be there for her before and after the service, and your cousin will feel at peace knowing she respected her mother's wishes.

[Rabrrrrrr]

28. People get whacked fucko emotional at death - if your cousin is okay with her dad there,

then let the dad come, especially if the cousin will find great comfort in having her dad there with her, and also especially if, for whatever reason, the dad feels that he should be or would like to be there, whether to support his daughter or to pay respects to his former wife.

It's not fucking rocket science, as you well pointed out.

Your mother and others are being totally unreasonable.


Unless the dad is a drunken, violent, unpredictable loudmouth, etc. etc. etc. whatever filled with hatred for his former wife and will almost 100% make a scene and cause a ruckus, there is NO reason not to "allow" him to come to the funeral, if he so desires.

[Unvanguard]

29. The wishes of the dead should be respected even if there is no afterlife.

That's why we have and recognize the legitimacy of wills.

We all have wishes regarding what happens after we die, and because we wouldn't want others to neglect those wishes in our case, we have an obligation not to neglect those wishes in the cases of others either.

[Evoman]

30. I'd like to give you a standard "who gives a shit about a dead guy" Evoman answer

but seeing as how I had to deal with this issue only a couple of years ago, I can't.

Here's the thing....my cousin died a couple of years ago (I posted on DU about it). She was agnostic/atheist. She had no real belief in god, and was actually sort of anti-christianity. She got married in a chuch as a favor to her husband, but she would never have set foot in a church otherwise.

When she died, her funeral was very christian. Her mom turned to christianity big time after she died, and gave her a christian funeral. Basically, the rest of my family, with the exception of one or two people, are atheist. The priest yammered on and on about christ...I found it all really offensive.

I would love to tell you...the wishes of the dead don't matter. It's about the living..it's about those people who survived. But at the same time, I felt offended...offended on behalf of my atheist cousin. I felt the funeral was a slap in the face. It was not who she was, and if she had been there, she would have been sitting beside me and we would have both been rolling her eyes. You don't get more real about death than me...I don't talk to the dead, I don't think their spirit survived, I don't even feel bad about saying bad things about dead people. But even I felt, somehow, that the funeral was profoundly disrespectful to her memory.

On the other hand, I have never said anything about it. Especially to my aunt, who was so heartbroken about the whole thing. And as much as it bothered me, I would have probably have gotten on my knees and prayed (something I will NEVER do) if she had asked me and if it made her feel better.

So there you go...a non-answer. In the end, I still think that the needs of the living come before the respect of the dead. And I would never prevent anyone from going to the funeral if it made them or other people feel better.

[SidneyCarton]

31. I see your argument,

While I personally believe in an afterlife, I have a strong belief that Funerals are for the living. That said, your situation is complex, for while Funerals are for the living, there is always a question of respect for the departed. While I may find the idea of having my loved ones cremated and shot out of a cannon (a la Hunter S. Thompson) to be highly cathartic, if the deceased would have found that repugnant, and wanted a quiet, traditional burial, respect of their wishes, is a way of showing final respect to them. I realize that I have used an extreme example here, (In honesty I would have no problem having my ashes shot out of a cannon), the point is that while Funerals are for the living, respect for the wishes of the dead are a key part of the healing for many of those who attend.

Just my $0.02

[struggle4progress]

32. Funerals are for the benefit of the survivors

[JerseygirlCT]

33. No, I wouldn't take offense at that.

I agree with you - funerals are for the living and the bereaved. If your cousin would be comforted by her father's presence, then I don't see a problem with asking him to be there. Now, if he'd be somehow disruptive, or hurtful to anyone else there, maybe that's a consideration too, you know?

But I don't see any religious reason to exclude someone like that.