Women & Religion

[redqueen]

So many women in this world are born into religious families, and this necessarily means that many daughters grow up with the knowledge that their own mothers have subjugated themselves, willingly.

Of course I understand that many sects disavow the "woman as less-than" parts of their history, but unless it's a religion that says it's OK to just trash whole sections of their holy books in order to evolve, then it's kind of confusing how something so huge can be so easily brushed aside.

Just something I was thinking about recently...

[Warpy]

1. I come from a long line of uppity women

which is par for the course if you're Irish, but so is superstition. My own mother was never able to shake it off completely until she sat down and read the bible cover to cover. That was the antidote to a lifetime of Irish Catholic indoctrination including a few years at a convent school, which I'm proud to say she got kicked out of.

My own antidote was a stuffed shirt of a priest who told a roomful of ten year olds that a woman's duty was to die in childbirth to protect her baby because the baby might be a boy. That did it, right then and there.

That same asshole gave a sermon one Sunday about how the only place for women in the church was cleaning it. That was the angriest I ever saw my mother, and the most disappointed I ever was in her because she didn't get up and walk out. I'd already left and just didn't get it.

Lest, gentle reader, you think I'm working out a lifetime of anger against one bad priest, I will assure you that I read through the theology section of a very good university library to try to figure out what I missed. It turned out I hadn't missed a thing, I just didn't believe a word of it and was too honest to pretend I did. The only things that resonated at all were Alan Watt's books on Buddhism, although I found Merton compelling, too.

I think it's especially difficult for women to shake off all the baggage because that baggage is so tied up with their community, and community is so vitally important to most women. Community can be achieved without shared religion, but there's always a barrier there, "beyond here there be dragons."

Most of my women friends have managed to compartmentalize the antiwoman theology and play the game in church and nowhere else. Some of them have achieved marvelous things in life despite that mosquito buzzing in their ears, telling them they really shouldn't be successful because Daddy god won't like it.

When the choice lies between community and lonely freedom, women tend to choose community.

I have a great deal of sympathy for my sisters in religion, but I can't join them there.

[redqueen]

2. Compartmentalization. yes... for the adults...

but I was thinking more about the effect that has on a growing girl's psyche.

Maybe it's just me... but it seems pretty profound... realizing one day that your own mother believes that women really are less worthy (or important, intelligent, or whatever their interpretation is) than men.

It seems you grew up in a home that didn't rigidly conform to religion or hold religious beliefs as paramount, and mine didn't either... lucky us. Some families do though, and I guess it kind of explains how some women can grow up completely invested in the mindset that women really are "less than". And that might also make them more likely to subscribe to the "big daddy" type of leadership that conservatives use.

I can't help but think that Sarah had her husband sitting in on meetings because she subscribes to this ideology.

[Warpy]

3. I think he was sitting in for a completely different reason.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypomania

[redqueen]

4. I'm not sure I get it...

Palin has Hypomania, so First Dude has to be there to hold her hand?

[Warpy]

5. First Dude is there to cut her off when she rambles too much

and to second guess every decision she makes. I have a feeling that's been the pattern from the beginning of their relationship to the point that neither of them ever questioned it or thought that maybe something was wrong with it, especially when it affected things like professional confidentiality.

Face it, that gal just aint right in the head. Something is going on.

[Why Syzygy]

13. That's a good point

and interesting observation. Right wing religionists have an entire hierarchal schema for what constitutes "authority".

[MountainLaurel]

17. Interesting book on the subject

A God Who Looks Like Me, which mainly deals with the aftermath in adult woman but provides a lot of useful perspective about the girls these women were.

[SidneyCarton]

6. You raise an interesting question here.

Coming from one of the traditions probably considered more oppressive here (I'm a Mormon) I can see what you're saying. The irony is, it is conventional wisdom amongst Mormons, that if you want it done right and well organized, send the Sisters, the Brethren have a reputation for last-minute work.

Mrs. Carton grew up in a far more traditional Mormon family than I did. My parents were converts, my Mother being Irish, uppity and a Redhead, (albeit dyed) was far from submissive. Hence it has been interesting for "Lucie" as I neither care nor desire to micromanage the affairs of the house. She can do as she likes, for she does it far better than I. Will our daughter grow up thinking that she is submissive? Maybe. You can ask her in about 15-20 years (she's 17 months old now.)

[redqueen]

8. Nothing to do with whether the mother is actually submissive or not.

And I wouldn't expect that the effects of this situation would be manifested in the conscious mind so much as the subconscious.

[SidneyCarton]

10. Hmmm...

That may well be. I shudder to think of all the crap that we each pick up subconsciously in our youth.

[knitter4democracy]

7. I can understand your point, but I don't entirely agree with it.

When I look at my faith's history (Eastern Orthodox Christianity), sure, I could stick on how we don't have women priests. That would be ignoring 2000 years of women's work and worth in the Church, though. Our most important Easter hymns were written by a woman, and we even gave her a saint's day for it, too. Most of our saints are women, and we constantly tell their stories and remember them. When I look at our iconostasis, I see women right there with the men, guiding the Church and leading by example. Yeah, a lot of the early women saints were canonized just because they refused to "marry" (aka be raped by) non-Christians and died for that, but that's a huge thing: those women, in a time/culture where women were property and were considered to be the same as animals, fought to the death for their bodies and their rights.

My name saint, for example, is St. Catherine, a scholar so profound that she converted all of the male scholars the Roman leader of Alexandria sent to tame her. He got so pissed by that that he did his dardest to kill her, and ultimately, he was successful. Her faith and her life's work, though, changed people's lives.

Sts. Mary Magdalene, Thecla, Photini (the woman at the well--she had a name, and our church honors her and her children who went on to become missionaries and died for the faith), Lydia, Procla, and so many others helped make the Church what it is. Sure, misogynistic asshole priests try to ignore all of that history, but those women are looking out of their icons and are reminding us every time we pray at our family altars or go to church.

In a chuch that honors Mary almost as much as her son, it's hard to make the point that we're subjugating ourselves to men and that we're less than our brothers in the faith.

[redqueen]

9. True enough... Mary plays a huge part in some religions... it's somewhat more balanced.

However the subjugation goes beyond simply the inability to become priests.

I wonder if anyone's ever made a list of all the misogynistic crap in the bible or other so-called holy books.

It'd be a very, very long list I think.

[knitter4democracy]

11. I always like to think of the woman's version that didn't make it in.

Like, when Mary and Joseph took Jesus to the Temple and met with St. Simeon and the Prophetess Anna, I like to imagine that Anna took Mary aside and had her own private chat with her about her son. The men stood around and talked football or whatever or maybe even how to deal with this news, but Mary and Anna sat down behind a pillar and had a good women's chat about everything.

I like to imagine that St. Photini and Jesus talked about her abortion and her adultery (for more than a few minutes) and that He was loving and more. When she said that He knew things she hadn't even told him, I have always assumed there was more to what is in the books.

[saltpoint]

12. It is refreshing to travel back into the goddess religions (or across town

if there are such groups and communities in one's area now) because the female and the divine were entirely present and vivid then.

I hope DUers who are interested in this might consider reading Nor Hall's THE MOON AND THE VIRGIN and Marion Zimmer Bradley's THE MISTS OF AVALON.

Two stunningly good reads.

[MedleyMisty]

14. My mother has apparently started going to church

I have no idea why. Maybe because she's totally 100% extroverted and there's people there?

I wasn't raised in a religion and I'm totally 100% introverted, so eh.

I don't get how it can be ok to just say "Oh, ignore what our religion is based on." so I guess that's why I'm replying. I mean - if your holy book doesn't apply anymore then your religion doesn't apply anymore, because the religion is based on the book. If the book is wrong, the religion is wrong.

[trotsky]

15. An excellent book you might want to pick up:

Woe To The Women: The Bible Tells Me So
by Annie Laurie Gaylor

Order from the Freedom From Religion Foundation:
http://www.ffrf.org/shop/books/details.php?cat=fbooks&ID=FB10

[JerseygirlCT]

16. You probably want to do a little more of that thinking

and try to let go of that fundamentalist's mindset wrt scripture.

A good part of the world of Christianity, for example, understands that scripture is not meant to be read as a rule book. It is absolutely meant to be interpreted - and likely differently by people in different ages.

I'm certain that other religions are the same.

Though I do understand that that black and white view of religion supports the arguments you want to make - it's unconnected with reality.

Women have for a long time suffered under cultures that saw them as "less than". These cultures were an expression of religion - and the religious practice an expression of the culture.

As our more modern society has changed, so have many religions. And many girl children growing up in religious homes have most certainly NOT been taught to subjugate themselves. Not in the least. Or that their religion supports that - or even allows that!