Liberal Catholics - what now?

[trotsky]

Your new pope has specifically called out liberalism as being a threat to the Catholic faith.

From: http://aolsvc.news.aol.com/news/article.adp?id=20050416121309990001

... just before the cardinals entered the conclave Monday, (Ratzinger) made clear where he stands ideologically, using words that John Paul would surely have endorsed. He warned about tendencies that he considered dangers to the faith: sects and ideologies like Marxism, liberalism, atheism, agnosticism and relativism - the ideology that there are no absolute truths.

''We are moving toward a dictatorship of relativism which does not recognize anything as for certain and which has as its highest goal one's own ego and one's own desires,'' he said.

He has denounced rock music, dismissed anyone who had tried to find ''feminist'' meanings in the Bible, and last year told American bishops it was appropriate to deny Communion to those who support abortion and euthanasia.

That last paragraph, as many of you know, was used to bash John Kerry in the last election, perhaps costing him enough Catholic votes to lose the presidency. Nice.

Hatred of atheism is nothing new - we've been demonized for as long as religion has existed. But specifically mentioning liberalism, Ratzinger puts the principles of the left in direct opposition to the Catholic Church. I hope that even if you can't bring yourself to leave the church, you at least stop giving them money to fight against all the progressive causes we champion at DU. Otherwise it's just like giving money to the RNC.

[onehandle]

1. Pray for better luck next time.

Nothing we can do.

My eye is on our corrupt government.

[trotsky]

2. On the contrary, there is plenty you can do.

* Stop giving the church money to carry out their fight against liberalism.
* Speak out at your church to make your views known. If your priest supports the church's agenda, find another church.
* Leave the church and demand they take your name from their records. Unless you do this, they will count you as a Catholic to pad their numbers.

Plenty more options available to you than just passively "praying" for something that won't happen. The cardinals who elect the next pope will be the same ones that elected this one, plus ones that this one appointed. You think the result will be different?

[onehandle]

7. There is no doctrine that says "fight liberalism".

I only give money for poor relief efforts.

I speak out at appropriate times. My priest has no "agenda" beyond his parish and duties.

I want them to have my name or I cannot keep up with events and policies.

I live in a blue area. If they had an "agenda", they'd have even more empty pews.

[trotsky]

9. What you are doing, then, has a name.

It's called enabling.

[onehandle]

11. I work within the system.

That's why I'm a Democrat instead of a Green or Socialist.

When I hear a word at my local church at mass or in a social justice meeting (which are usually chock full of liberals) against liberalism, I'll let you know.

[trotsky]

12. Well, which is it?

"Nothing we can do."

vs.

"I work within the system."

[onehandle]

16. Both.

There's nothing I can do about the choice of Pope. He's there for Life.

So I work within the system on local matters.

[Discord]

24. BINGO!

exactly right. All the money trickles UP. It DOES end up in the hands of those that DO have an anti-liberal agenda, who are actively trying to outlaw abortion, demonize and persecute gays, and take away womens rights. Your paying for this every time you put a dollar into a Catholic church collection plate, even if YOUR parishes are not actively advocating it.

[michaelhopewell]

3. it depends...

on what you definition of Liberalism is.

[trotsky]

5. So, how do you think Ratzinger defines it? n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. As an opposite to Marxism

The little ship bearing the thoughts of many Christians has frequently been shaken by these waves, thrown from one extreme to the other: from Marxism to liberalism, even to libertarianism; from collectivism to radical individualism; from atheism to a vague religious mysticism; from agnosticism to syncretism, and so on.

http://www.rcdhn.org.uk/vatican/startconclave_mass.htm

Probably the European (continental) definition - free market liberalism.

[michaelhopewell]

10. I think

he is talking gay marrige, abortion, condom distribution and things like that. I'm more interested in jobs, wages and economy issues.

[trotsky]

14. In that case...

good luck getting homosexuals, abortion rights advocates, and safe sex advocates on your side in your economic battles. You've basically told them, "I don't care about your problems."

[michaelhopewell]

15. big tent

there is room for everyone.

[Rich Hunt]

18. it goes both ways

...doesn't it?

I mean, how can you be concerned about human rights for only one group of people? It sounds rather selfish.


Fortunately, most of those 'advocates' you speak of work with the underprivileged on a day-to-day basis. I haven't met any who say, 'sorry, your issue is not my issue', because they tend to be compassionate people in general. In my book, advocacy is not about writing checks and posting to message boards.

[trotsky]

19. You've just labeled the other poster selfish, then.

He said he's not concerned about those other groups.

[michaelhopewell]

21. Bob Casey

is the what I am looking for in a canidate.

[imenja]

31. our battles?

So poverty and peace are battles unique to the Catholic Church? You care only about sex? I suggest you change your screen name. Trotsky turns in his grave.

[davidinalameda]

20. social justice is social justice

you can't separate homophobia, sexism, racism, etc from economic issues

they're all intertwined

[Montauk6]

4. So I guess this guy won't be having breakdancers performing for him either

[lonestarnot]

6. alot of people are having smoke blown up their ass!

[readmylips]

13. Conservative and Liberalism means different things in Catholism....

HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH US POLITICS. The media is linking the conservative/liberal words to bush and his religious destructive government. Don't' allow this to happen. Open your eyes.

Conservatism for Catholics means staying with strict ancient guidelines of the church. WORLD Conservative Catholicism means changing the antiquated guidelines to ordain women and allow priests to marry....get with the program. GOP talking-heads priests on TV have been making the connection to bush too.

US Catholics want more. They want the church to be INCLUSIVE and accept differences; accepting gays and allowing their marriage to take place in church. They also want priests to marry and ordain women as priests, and allow women have a larger role in the Vatican. The church/religion will destroy itself before this happens. Other religions will be created (like the pentecostals) and they'll consume the catholics world-wide.

[H2O Man]

17. I respectfully disagree.

The last pope took a stand against liberalism in many areas, including politics. For the most obvious example, I think that the priests involved in liberation theology in Central America stand out. There was a Catholic priest in Albany NY, Father Jim Murphey, who held elected office and worked tirelessly on jail reform; he was ordered to quit. I believe he ended up leaving the priesthood.

I think every Catholic needs to decide for themselves. I think that liberation theology applies to the church itself. I am not comfortable participating in things in the Catholic church, and haven't in decades. Yet I have great respect for many Catholics, including figures like the Berrigans.

[imenja]

32. Liberalism defined

In the US, liberalism has been imagined as the left of the political spectrum only because we have no left. Liberalism is the ideology associated with capitalism: it is economic, political and cultural. Our nation is the standard bearer of rapacious capitalism. As a result, even the so-called left in this country doesn't challenge the morality of what is an inherently immoral and exploitive system. Cardinal Ratzinger juxtaposed liberalism with Marxism. He clearly intended these as polar opposites. It was not simply the principles of the Church, because he posited Marxism as it's opposite. He referred to the excesses of both--Marxism, atheistic dictatorships (in practice rather than theory) and liberalism: societies characterized by excessive individualism, where the few profit at the expense of the many, where self-indulgence overpowers communal morality.





Liberalism defined, _A Dictionary of World History_ (Oxford University Press):

"Liberalism: A political outlook attaching supreme importance to safeguarding the freedom of the individual within society. Liberal ideas first took shape in the struggle for religious toleration in the 16th and 17th centuries. The liberal view was that religion was a private matter; it was not the business of the state to enforce a particular creed. This later developed into a more general doctrine of the limited and constitutional state, whose boundaries were set by the natural rights of the individual (for instance in the political thought of LOCKE). Around 1800 liberalism became associated with the doctrines of the free market and reducing the role of the state in the economic sphere. This tendency was reversed later in the 19th century with the arrival of ‘New Liberalism’, committed to social reform and welfare legislation. In contemporary debate both schools of thought are represented. Liberals unite in upholding the importance of personal liberty in the face of encroachment by the state, leading to demands for constitutional government, civil rights, and the protection of privacy."

[Brianboru]

22. Cardinals elect Catholic Pope. World in Shock

in all honesty, what were you expecting? Someone in the Church’s leadership who was going to pop up out on the balcony of St Peter’s and with a rainbow alb, tell the faithful that everything they’d heard for the past 26 — no, make that 1726 — years was rubbish and that they should all rush out and load up with beer and condoms for a fun weekend?

The pope is only relevant for those who believe in the Catholic Church. Their rules are not going to change. Accept them or move on.

[trotsky]

23. There have been many threads demonstrating how

the policies and practices of the Catholic Church affect us all.

Inform yourself.

[Discord]

25. If they kept their rules in Rome and not here in the US

I wouldn't give a shit, but when Catholisism in America is advocating AGAINST civil rights, I have issue with it. I could care less if they elected Mickey Mouse as Pope, but when their doctrine is being used by Catholics in America, and that doctrine is being used as a political tool to abolish reproductive rights, gay rights, the right to access to birth control, interferance by government into peoples personal affairs and privacy, etc...

Then, fuck no... I will not accept them and move on. Its disgusting if you cannot see the connections or are in support of them.

[ianrs]

29. if only that were true

the promotion of social hatreds, the inculcation of anti-safe sex messages, overt political interference in different nations (USA 2004, Spain this week), protection of child abusers (tending to the obstruction or perversion of course of justice) - the list of areas the Church can and does influence is not short, and the malignity of its impact should not be underestimated.

That, however, is not to decry or attack the many excellent RCs who work against the grain of the Church. Don't understand for one single moment how they can bring themselves to do it, but they do. I suppose that in Catholic terms it is only yesterday since the Church quite suddenly changed greatly for the better, with Vatican II. It was only a few hours ago that liberation theologists were silenced, or hounded out of the Church. Point being that it does change, can change, and when it is in social justice mode, can be a courageous force for good (vis the assasinated Archbishop Romero, who remains strangely unbeatified...funny that).

[Rhiannon12866]

26. Here's the story on Ratzinger interfering in the U.S. election.

It was the headline on Buzzflash the day of the white smoke. I passed it on to my liberal Catholic friends. I'm sure you remember that I praised Karol Wojtyla for his working against the Nazis and the Communists and for his severe condemnation of Bush*, though I could not defend his reactionary social conservatism. But you won't hear a peep from me in defense of this guy. I have heard him referred to as "God's Rottweiler!" Yikes!
:scared:

New pope intervened against Kerry in US 2004 election campaign

http://beta.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20050419/pl_afp/vaticanpopeus

[Az]

27. It is very likely the Pope will support issues we consider liberal, but

He is also going to support issues we consider to be antisocial and conservative.

Expect to hear the Pope speak out against war and the death penalty. Expect the Pope to increase rhetoric against the homosexual community and women's reproductive rights. Expect the Pope to attempt to demonize heathens and nonbelievers and attempt to draw protestants back from their fallen ways.

Now while I can respect individual Catholics who form their own ideas and policies. This Pope is looking to be a source of great concern for those of us that do not share his beliefs. Frankly at this stage he has me very concerned. I suspect he is going to try a full court press of a particularly conservative nature. I not only disagree with such a position I believe his power is something to be concerned about. The path he seems to wish to guide his billion plus followers on is one not conducive to the form of society I believe is healthy.

[imenja]

33. I'm not so sure

There is a difference between his role as Prefect of the Doctrine of the Faith and pontiff. His statements thus far have been more conciliatory. We will see what he says in the future.

Pope Benedict XVI is reportedly to the left of John Paul II on social justice issues, capitalist exploitation and poverty in particular. Those views are less known because as enforcer he did not have occasion to made them heard. Remember that Ratzinger was as a young priest instrumental in Vatican II. The events of 1968 in Europe shook him up, but in 2000 he republished a book, originally printed in 1968, in which he said he renounced none of his positions on reform. Many who know Ratzinger argue that his press is unfair, that he is a far gentler and more compassionate man than is reported. We will see.

I ask that people read the Pontiff's statements themselves rather than rely on what are invariably distortions by the press. Quite frankly, I think most reporters are not well-read enough to understand his sermons. This flap over liberalism is a clear example of that.

Here is the websites with transcriptions of his recent sermons plus statements issued while

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/elezione/index_en.htm

[Az]

34. It wasn't just that word

But I am willing to give the man a chance to present himself. Of course my position is that no matter the past a person can find themself on a new path at any time. Its best to find out if they are before you jump on them.

[CatholicEdHead]

28. Couple Groups here:

http://www.catholicdemocrats.org/

http://www.catholicsforfaithfulcitizenship.org/index.htm

The latter used to be Catholics for Kerry 04.

These Yahoo Group Discussions are also still relevent:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/catholicsforkerry/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Honest_Roman_Catholic_Discussion/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Democrats-For-Life/

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Kerry2008/

[imenja]

30. Trotsy--doesn't that suggest you're a Marxist

Why on earth would you want to defend liberalism? Or is the screen name not reflective of your political-economic views? Suddenly you're offended about attacks on liberalism, the political ideology of capitalism? On that particular point I say more power to him. In this age of unbridled greed and individualism, we need someone to speak up about communal values.

[catbert836]

35. The European definition of liberalism

generally means the free market, pro-business liberalism. As in greed.