atheists and antitheists: ahhh! now I get it...

[Lerkfish]

having recently witnessed the moral outrage expressed by some for pope criticisms, My eyes have been opened as to how you may have viewed my concerns and the concerns of others in the past for criticising liberal protestants or people of ANY religion here.

I think we could all learn to bear a little valid criticism, now and then.

Not that I wasn't able to understand this before, but it has been reflected back to me in recent days. Interesting.

Although I think the two situations are not completely analagous, I am learning by inference, and begin to see from a different perspective.

I still think there is a difference between valid criticism and trashing the beliefs of others, I do see where there room for improvement on both sides: some of us are overly sensitive when being criticized and some of us are overly insensitive when criticising.

I think its important to keep the perspective that criticising my religion is not criticizing me automatically. I am separate from religion in that I can analyze it through your borrowed perspective.

thanks.

[beam me up scottie]

1. Yes you do get it .

And you explain it very well.
What you said works for all sides.
Thanks for posting this.
:toast:

[PA Mamma]

2. Ah Psst ...

We atheists are supposed to stay in the closet -- Shhh .

Only kidding I liked your post!

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

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[beam me up scottie]

11. " Take your teeth out, and I'll kiss your ass."

:spray:
PERFECT!:applause:
and on edit too!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

:rofl:

[eallen]

6. I think Judaism is as silly as any other religion.

You're correct, that many people seem to get upset if anything is said against Judaism as a religion, from a concern that such will spill over to discrimination against Jews as a group. I hope I'm capable of expressing my views with adequate finesse that criticizing a religion, as one of many, in no way implies the desire to oppress a people.

And while I think your religion is silly, I also am an adamant supporter of the first amendment, and the notion that all people should be free to hold whatever religious views they desire, and should be treated the same under the law, regardless of their religious belief, or lack thereof.

As to Catholic bashing, two things. First, the appointment as pope of someone who has attacked liberalism has obvious political import to those of us here, whatever our religion. Second, I think some of the recent threads were quite enlightening, and gave me more sympathy for liberal Catholics. I found it interesting how some continue to identify as Catholics from familial or historical roots, regardless of their dissent from Catholic outlook. "Being Catholic" then seem a bit more like "being Jewish," less a function solely of belief than also of history. In contrast, "being atheist" is entirely a function of what you believe rather than how you were raised or what cultural, emotional, or social ties you have to some institution. It makes sense to describe someone as both atheist and Jewish -- indeed, there are millions such people. Does it make sense to describe someone as both Catholic and atheist? That seems more questionable. But maybe it's not entirely nonsense either.

So -- does the above offend anyone? And if so, why?

[Donald Ian Rankin]

8. I'd be surprised if there

weren't people in e.g. Ireland, who come from strong Catholic cultures but don't believe in a god, who describe themselves as both Catholic and Atheist.

I'm not sure whether you'd find many people who described themselves as both atheist and Baptist or Evangelical, or one of the other newer churches with less associated non-specifically-religious tradition, though.

[muriel_volestrangler]

7. To the Americans here ...

You have my condolences on the picking of President Chimp Bush II as your president.

His motto?
"Forward to the Gilded Age!"

Apologies in advance for the pure unadulterated prejudice, bigotry and hatred, that the above sentiments represent. They are obviously American bashing. As a Englishman, I must be copping out. Will someone present me their behind?

[eallen]

9. Blair.

Well. Someone had to say it.

:evilgrin:

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. Damn, my biting satire looks a bit silly now, doesn't it?

With the original complaint gone, parody doesn't get very far. Yes, point taken about Blair.

[beam me up scottie]

17. I hear you.

I behaved myself and mine got deleted.

[Lerkfish]

18. goodness! what happened?

i come back to the thread to find all these deleted messages. seems I missed a good barfight.

oh well. :)

[beam me up scottie]

19. A person took offense at your post

and told us atheists to "kiss his ass".
It stayed up for a while too.
Dr_Phool made the comment I referenced in post #11. (what a guy!)

[Lerkfish]

20. now I'm more confused...if he took offense at MY post,

why attack atheists? I'm not one. weird.

[beam me up scottie]

21. He was mad because you wanted people to

be nice to us.
What the hell is the matter with you anyway? :spank:
(being nice to atheists, please, next you'll want people to let us around their wives and children and even their dogs! When will it end, huh, when?) :evilgrin:
Note: I am being sarcastic - please do not delete my post! :hide:
(I LOVE Lerkfish, really I do!) :pals:

[Lerkfish]

22. LOL!

well, yeah, that whole putting yourself in another person's mocassins thingy is so last year.

:)

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[H2O Man]

10. My favorite athiest

to discuss/debate issues with is one of my brothers. I think it would be fair to say that in many areas, our thoughts and values are very close. Certainly, were the situation to arise, I would want him to raise my younger children.

In regard to theism versus atheism, his beliefs are entirely in terms of science. I have no problem with that, and he has no problem with my belief system. At those times we have a heated debate, even if one of us says something harsh, it's not a personal attack .... or not the type we would be offended by.

At times he certainly makes fun of me. When I mentioned that I was having a pond made, for example, he responded with, "But God doesn't want a pond on your land, or he would have made one." He went a step further, and asked if there would be divine retribution for putting a pond there: might not "the great bearded chimp smite (my) computer with a virus?"

I think the difference between talking to him and people like him, rather than some other atheists, is that he doesn't despise religious people. It's just an area where he views science a little differently than I do. But we're still brothers.

[PA Mamma]

14. That's cool ...

But I have to ask...
Do you think underneath all that love, you know deep inside and unspoken, he thinks you're a "stupid blind faithful"
and you think he's a "stupid godless heathen" ?

Or something like that?

Not intended to flame , please.

Just wondering how all good , but different, folks can come together even when deep in their hearts, they think the other is missing something?

[H2O Man]

15. Fair question.

I don't take it as an attempted flame at all.

Though I obviously can't say for sure how my brother feels, I can say that I do not limit myself to respecting people who think exactly like me. Though my brother is an atheist, in every important area of life, we hold similar values.

I'm the youngest of five siblings. Recently, our oldest brother had serious health problems. He went into a coma in February, and the doctors haven't identified why yet. Ruled out a lot of things. At one point, the doctors told my sisters that our family needed to think about the future, and perhaps cut off life-support systems.

Now that sounds familiar, eh? Of the four siblings, there were four opinions. The break-down wasn't along any "religious divide." It was more of a male-female difference. And that's why on the Sciavo case, I kept saying that there isn't one "right" answer that holds true in every case. People can appreciate other points of view. Gandhi said that intolerance betrays a want of faith in one's cause. That is as true in the case of my brother's illness as in the atheist-theist discussion on DU.

[PA Mamma]

16. Thanks...

and I am sorry about your brother. What a tough situation for you all to be in for sure. Did he have a living will?

Yes ! We must all be united in our cause as division only weakens us.

But when so many have been hurt by each other it's hard to not cross the line of intolerance and respectful & healthy debate while venting with those who you have something in common or feel your pain?

From your post We should all try to Remember that we are all "brothers" in this together. We can disagree but in the end we are in the same family? Sharing some of life's toughest challenges?

Hmmmm -- Very Good !
Thanks
:-)

[erichzann]

23. There is a difference between institutional criticism and personal bashing

<big breath> well here goes....

Anyone is more than free to criticize any institution to which I belong. It helps if they are open to discussion and have some command of the actual facts, but we should be able to talk about religious institutions or corporate institutions or political institutions in a civilized way. All institutions have problems.

There is a big difference between criticizing the institution(s) of religion and mocking one's personal faith. Where I draw then line is at hostile and snide attacks on one's personal beliefs. My reasons for believing in God personally is really outside the scope of your right to criticize. It's personal, its private, and its really none of your business.

If you want to talk about the abuses of religion or the bad things done in the name of faith, that's fine. If you want to share your personal reasons for lack of belief, that's fine. But attacking me personally as stupid or ignorant or blind is really not something that promotes anything positive. It's the judging of the quality of my person-hood that is off-limits. That doesn't create an environment of positive dialog. It doesn't help me. It doesn't help you. It just creates anger and encourages even deeper misunderstanding.

The ability to criticize institutions and criticize the effects of certain actions or beliefs is something we should all accept and be willing to deal with. But when that criticism becomes personal - when it becomes more about the quality of an individual person more than about the issues - that's a problem.

And yes, I am very opinionated - even as a posting noob.

[beam me up scottie]

24. Well if you're opinionated,

you're definitely in the right place. :evilgrin:

As an atheist, I have absolutely no problem with anything you've posted.
You have accurately defined where the "line" is in these discussions, IMHO.
Telling someone that they cannot personally attack you because of your faith is unreasonable.
Telling them that personal attacks are insulting and unnecessarily hostile is intelligent and sincere.

Welcome to DU Erichzann.

[Modem Butterfly]

25. What's an antitheist?

:shrug:

[trotsky]

26. Someone who, if they come into contact with a theist,

causes both to be annihilated in a flash of energy.

ba-dum-bum. Thank you, I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

[Lerkfish]

27. my term for those who are against religion.

Someone can be an atheist, but not actively oppose religion. An antitheist would make statements like "religion should be eliminated" or "religious people should abandon their beliefs". That is different from merely not considering religion to be the correct path for themselves.

The difference between an antitheist and an atheist would be analogous to difference between a proseltyzing zealot who seeks to enforce his religion on others vs. a person of faith who can rationally exist with others of differing faiths (or nonfaiths) without feeling threatened by them, nor seek to change them against their will or preference.