Becoming an Atheist While in a Foxhole

[Christa]

84-year-old Milton Christian received a Bronze Star on Tuesday for his “heroic service” in World War II. It’s a belated honor, but a well-deserved one:

From 1943 to 1946 Christian served as a machine gunner with the 29th Infantry Division. He doesn’t consider himself a hero, although his collection of medals tells another story — Purple Heart, Good Conduct Medal, European-African Middle Eastern Campaign medal, Victory Medal, Combat Infantryman Badge 1st Award, Honorable Service Lapel Button, Marskman Badge — ribbons he says he earned simply doing his job, protecting his fellow soldiers.

The highlight of the article, though, is when Christian talks about the toughest times during the war:

“They say there are no atheists in foxholes. But as we sat in those holes, praying that God would save us, I thought about the fact that the other side was doing the same thing. And then I wondered if God is just playing some kind of game with us. Pretty much I decided at that point there was no God,” Christian said.

“For the rest of my life, I’ve tried to do the right thing. I raised a beautiful bunch of kids — and they truly are my greatest accomplishment. So I’m not worried about what’s next. If there is a God, I think he’ll know that I just did the best I could. That’s all a man can do.”

Some people (mistakenly) say there are no atheists in foxholes.

Milton Christian became an atheist while sitting in one.

http://friendlyatheist.com/2010/02/05/becoming-an-atheist-while-in-a-foxhole/

[trotsky]

1. Great story. n/t

[MercutioATC]

2. Please, somebody with military expertise correct me if I'm wrong...

...but his citations prove that he was wounded in combat, served in certain arenas, behaved himself, and was a good marksman. They don't imply any "heroism".


I'm not minimizing his contributions nor am I disagreeing with the gist of the OP, but it seems sensationalistic to state that he's a military "hero".

[trotsky]

4. The reason for the story about him...

was that he was recently (finally) awarded the Bronze Star.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Star_Medal

The Bronze Star Medal is awarded to any person who meets specific qualifications:

While serving in any capacity in or with the Army of the United States after 6 December 1941, distinguished himself or herself by heroic or meritorious achievement or service, not involving participation in aerial flight, in connection with military operations against an armed enemy; or while participating in aerial flight prior to the establishment of the Air Force as separate from the army; or while engaged in military operations involving conflict with an opposing armed force in which the United States is not a belligerent party. The acts of heroism are of a lesser degree than required for the award of the Silver Star. The acts of merit or acts of valor must be less than that required for the Legion of Merit but must nevertheless have been meritorious and accomplished with distinction. The Bronze Star Medal is awarded only to service members in combat who are receiving imminent danger pay.

[Christa]

5. He does not consider himself to be a hero

However, he received these medals:

(From a link in the OP)

From 1943 to 1946 Christian served as a machine gunner with the 29th Infantry Division. He doesn't consider himself a hero, although his collection of medals tells another story -- Purple Heart, Good Conduct Medal, European-African Middle Eastern Campaign medal, Victory Medal, Combat Infantryman Badge 1st Award, Honorable Service Lapel Button, Marskman Badge -- ribbons he says he earned simply doing his job, protecting his fellow soldiers.

[rd_kent]

13. Thats what the Bronze Star is for.

[DeSwiss]

14. You don't know why they give Purple Hearts?!?!?!

Its for being wounded in battle. That heroic enough for you?!?!?!

- Or do you require a corpse before you acknowledge heroism???

[MercutioATC]

17. Again, not to be disrespectful, but being wounded in combat isn't an inherently "heroic" act.

[DeSwiss]

18. I totally disagree.

To put one's self "knowingly" in harm's way -- into the line of fire -- for someone or something other than one's own benefit, is indeed heroic.

And I hate war and think it's the stupidest activity ever designed by mankind.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

3. what a great argument he made, too.

[harun]

6. The fallacy of his logic lies in the fact man started that war and chose to fight it, not God.

Hence the game is man's.

[darkstar3]

11. And which fallacy would that be?

Fallacies generally have names. Perhaps you meant failure?

Regardless, your statement is meaningless until you define God. Are you speaking about a personal, involved, and caring God, or a detached God?

[harun]

19. Not detached, involved.

[darkstar3]

20. Then would not an involved God have done something to prevent such horror? n/t

[harun]

22. The horror was created by man. You think if you choose to jump off a bridge God

will catch you?

If man wants to choose a path of fighting over patches of dirt I do not expect God to prevent the ills of such actions.

That's in terms of the wars, the genocide is a bigger discussion.

[darkstar3]

23. Then how is God involved?

If man can make war, commit genocide, jump off a bridge and commit suicide, and a myriad of other voluntary actions that will result in pain, suffering, death, or mass destruction, then how is God involved?

The question of an involved deity was solved for me by the creation and use of an atomic bomb. Any deity that would allow such horrific mass destruction cannot possibly be referred to as "involved".

[ChadwickHenryWard]

25. If a man jumped off a bridge, and I could catch him, I would.

Wouldn't you? If God can but doesn't, I contend that he is significantly less moral than many mortals. Further anybody that can stop a war or a genocide and chooses not to is positively vile. Any decent human being would stop these horrors had he the chance. There is something terrible wrong with a moral lawgiver that chooses, for whatever reason, to allow such horrors to happen.

[DeSwiss]

15. So his logic is flawed even though......

...the man who started the war was killing Yahweh's so-called "Chosen People?"

- That's right! I almost forgot! Yahweh kills his own chosen people! So why should he give a fuck who else kills them!?!?

[rug]

21. Agreed. God didn't put a gun in their hands, unless people consider politicians to be God.

[riderinthestorm]

28. Nope, the big leaders had direct instructions from their deity to start the war

Sorry but to say it's just some guy's personal vendetta doesn't take into account the millions of leaders who all claim that their god told them to start the bad shit.

You can't claim the "No True Scotsman" theory and apply it to a war proclamation. All leaders claim their directions come from god. They're all really religious, (or all religious leaders (and their followers) are full of shit - my personal choice) but you can't simply unilaterally now claim that all wars are secular.

Most wars are religiously oriented and to try to shift this all onto secularists/atheists/non-believers etc. is a crock of shit. Most religious leaders are warlords - even Jesus proclaimed he came to wield a sword.

"God's" part in war is one of the truest parts of a war. To attempt to shift responsibility from "God/Allah/Jawheh" etc. is completely dishonest.

Clearly you are a believer of one of the world's religions (lies) as this canard is one of the oldest out there, but you absolutely cannot assign the responsibility for making war onto non-believers. You all own this shit 110%.

[Towlie]

7. Not only was the other side praying too, they had "Gott mit uns" on their belt buckles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/29th_Infantry_Division_%28United_States%29

The division is best known for being among the first wave of troops to the shore at Omaha Beach, suffering massive casualties in the process. It then advanced to St. Lo, and eventually through France and into Germany itself.

[pokerfan]

9. How could they handle weapons

if they were wearing mittens? :shrug:

;)

[pleah]

8. K&R

[Jokerman]

10. My dad joined the navy as a Methodist and returned an Atheist.

He may have never been in an actual foxhole but he lost his best friend at Pearl Harbor and got to see the ruins of Hiroshima. That was enough to convince him that all this talk about a loving, benevolent god was just hot air.

[Laura902]

12. wonderful story!n/t

[DeSwiss]

16. K&R!!!!

- Excellent story. Just excellent!

[onager]

24. "Listen up, you primitive screwheads...!"

As Ash says in Army of Darkness...

:rofl:

Forgive me, I was an atheist at the same time I was a f**king Marine Corps Drill Instructor...

If you can't stand History Geekness, leave this thread NOW!

But if you are still here...Milton Christian's unit, the 29th Infantry Division, hit the WORST part of D-Day - Omaha Beach. If Mr. Christian made it to that little party, he was truly in the shit and deserves the title "hero." (I note that among his awards, Christian was awarded the "Combat Infantryman Badge." That's ONLY given for service under enemy fire.)

The movie Saving Private Ryan showed Omaha Beach on 6 June 1944, but it dealt mostly with the 2d Ranger Battalion. The 29th Infantry Division landed at the same time, in the same sector.

Most of the Normandy landings were relatively easy, because Normandy was mainly defended by people who wanted to give up - slave laborers and unwilling conscripts into the German army.

Omaha Beach was different. What Allied intelligence did not know: the Omaha Beach sector had recently been reinforced by the (German) 352nd Infantry Division. That was a very tough Wehrmacht unit, which contained many veterans of the grinding German war in Russia.

That's why American casualties at Omaha Beach were horrendous, and why it took so long to break thru the German defenses at Omaha.

Bonus Atheist-In-A-Foxhole Rant! From Stephen Ambrose's book Citizen Soldiers:

Pvt. Keith Lance of the 84th Div. was that rare creature, an atheist in a foxhole.

His buddy was "a good Catholic boy from upstate NY." They were being shelled and the buddy "Hailed Mary all night. After taking so many hours of that," Lance commented, he had had enough, so he dashed out of the foxhole to check on the other guys.

As he threw himself into the next foxhole, Lance heard an explosion. He looked, aghast--it had hit his old foxhole. His buddy was badly wounded...

The Bad Aim of God strikes again...

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

26. You don't aim where the target is, you aim where it's going to be next!

Sheesh! Did that God fellow ever do boot camp?

[deutsey]

27. I've always doubted that "no atheists in foxholes" thing

I think Christian's initial impulse to pray to God to save him and his fellow soldiers is a natural and understandable reaction to the horror of combat. But so is his insight that, in experiencing such horror, the kind of God he was taught about in Sunday school couldn't possibly exist.