"it's even in the Bible"...from my editorial that was printed in the local newspaper

[stopschoolpaddling]

It's true that not all children may permanently suffer negative effects produced by corporal punishment but it stands that most children will. No one, however, knows which ones will be affected and which ones won't. So you tell me, doesn't it stand to reason not to take that chance in the first place?

Well, that’s all fine and dandy, you say, but we’ve been doing it this way since before I can remember and it’s even in the Bible that if you “spare the rod, you spoil the child”. Isn’t it also in the Bible to “do unto others as you would have done to you”? Now unless, bending over and having someone whack you on the butt with a two foot long one inch thick wooden stick turns you on then it isn’t doing unto others as you would have done, is it?

Moreover, can anyone vividly imagine Jesus Christ himself hitting a child or even advising someone to hit a child? Wouldn’t that just be flat out blasphemy? So, why do a lot of people insist on clinging to the Bible, or any reason for that matter, to justify the violent practice of “whooping” children?

I believe one reason is because when a person spanks a child, something deep down inside their soul, if you will, tells them this is wrong and so in order to continue doing it with any shred of dignity, however tattered, they will use any reason they can find to justify their actions

[hobbit709]

1. There's lots of things in the bible

Amazing how many people use the bible as justification for something but completely ignore the exact opposite-which is also in the bible

[YOY]

2. Really. School paddling is still an issue where you live?

Where are you? Uganda?

[stopschoolpaddling]

5. Arkansas, I fell through a time warp when I moved here.

[YOY]

6. Have you considered lawsuits?

They work everywhere else someone decides to harm a child.

[stopschoolpaddling]

22. I did check into it but the law specifically supports it.

My son's Kindergarten teacher showed a paddle to his class to help explain what could happen to children who didn't behave. We can choose not to have corporal punishment used on our children but apparently there is nothing we can do about having them threatened with it. Both the principal and superintendent dismissed my objections with the hostility and intelligence of a rabid pig. The lawyer I contacted said I would have to show "damages" which were there because after his second week of school, my son "hated" school and was afraid to go there. I didn't want to put him through a bunch of psychological evaluations so I just yanked him out of there. The law here specifically supports hitting children so I probably would have lost anyway. Luckily his new teacher in his new school is a real gem and he says he loves her. She says he is just a sweet heart, never any trouble, and listens attentively. His new school paddles but this teacher is "secretly" against it, lucky for us.
One day, he was flipping through the pictures on our digital camera and came to the ones of his first day of school and asked me if he could delete them.

[lazer47]

12. As my friend Louis Grizzard, would say

If you don't like it here, and I mean Arkansas, then "Deltas ready when you are they can have you gone by supper time". It is amazing how many people come here for our lower real estate prices, and lower property taxes, then bitch about how backward they think we are.....

[noamnety]

17. I don't find "love it or leave it" an appropriate response to child abuse.

That's not how activists are wired - to look at injustice or violence, shrug, and decide it's not their problem, they can just leave.

In addition to that, it reflects a fair amount of privilege. You may have the means to up and move at will, but not everyone does.

[lazer47]

20. I wasn't talking about child abuse, I am a court advocate for Children

the writer says she fell into a time warp when she came to Arkansas..

[noamnety]

25. That was a fair statement on their part.

The states that still allow corporal punishment are living in the dark ages in that regard, compared to much of the rest of the world. No?

[Warpy]

26. Excuse me, but since when is pointing out what's terribly wrong

an insult? Hell, I can't cope with southern culture so I left as soon as I scraped the money together when I was a kid. However, that's just a little different that systemic physical abuse of children.

It's bad enough when parents swat them, but when a relative stranger does, it's incredibly damaging. Even if the teacher isn't a sadist who uses a blister board (the instrument of torture of my youth), there are psychological scars.

I can tolerate cultural friction, I made the transition from the south to Boston and from Boston to New Mexico. However, I can't tolerate serious wrongs like institutionalized violence against children.

You're all wrong about this one, dear.

[lazer47]

28. Then by " institutionalized violence against children" then

you mean the prison system not the school system....

[Warpy]

30. No, dear, the school system

Most children are not in the prison system, although institutionalized violence in them in the schools blurs the distinction.

I was quite clear about that and your post is disingenuous at best.

[lazer47]

34. No it was "snarky",, and I apologize,, I get mad when the school systems

dump kids into the justice system without even trying to rectify their own problem child....

[stopschoolpaddling]

27. You are right about coming here for the lower real estate prices,

we have a beautiful house on 20 acres that we got for next to nothing compared to Texas, and property tax is almost non-existent. But you are backwards and need to wake up to the fact that ignorance is not an excuse to act like animals. We own this land, paid cash, and so I have every right to try to change something I think is harmful. But I'm sure you would like me to go away so nothing will threaten your misguided sick behaviors. Too bad, I'm not going anywhere.

[lazer47]

31. You are the one who said you don't like it,, I own my property also

that doesn't make me backward, Maybe my degree from U.C.L.A. might make me backward,, yes you have the right to stay, and change along with the rest of us,, But you don't have the right to Judge me or anyone else,, anymore than I have the right to Judge you,, for being from that country down under" TEXAS"

[texastoast]

46. So, is paddling backwards?

I mean, what do you think about paddling as a culturally accepted norm? Forwards? Backwards?

[noamnety]

Uganda's restrictions are stricter than US restrictions on corporal punishment.

Here's where it's legal in the US:


Uganda's education minister prohibited corporal punishment in schools in 2006. Disclaimer: There's no federal law against it there though - it's a directive. (It probably still goes on though, just as it goes on in Detroit even though it's illegal here.)

[FreakinDJ]

3. I don't know - Given Juvenal Criminality rates.....

The current psychology offered and enforced by Local Child Protection Services is a FAILURE.

Second only to Sacramento County adopting the policy "Drug Addiction" not predetermined to affect a mother's parenting skills.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. Most juvenile criminals--just like most adult criminals--

come from highly abusive backgrounds. There was too much hitting, not too little, in their childhoods.

[FreakinDJ]

10. Children will seek attention "Positive or Negative"

Granted society has taken the mime "Spanking a Child is Abuse" but it doesn't explain why the child feels the need to get attention from their parents in this fashion.

When you treat the "Symptom" by empowering the child to further act out without fear of retribution you have opened the door WIDER to the never ending cycle of abuse. The INCREASED Juvenal Criminality Rates proves this

[Jackpine Radical]

16. Nobody said anything about allowing the little dears to run loose without control.

And I didn't know that Juvenal was a criminal. Actually, I suggest you read him. He said things like, “'Tis unto children most respect is due.”

I don't know what your experience base is, but mine is from about 16 years as a criminal & forensic psychologist, during which time I did psychological evaluations of about 2,000 criminal offenders.

[FreakinDJ]

19. Then explain why Juvenal Criminality rates are going through the roof

Since you feel it necessary to berate me for observing simple facts

[lazer47]

24. Suggestion,,, Go into a juvenile court room and you can see the

"children" that haven't been taught any sort of personal responsibility,, what we are doing is feeling sorry for little Johnny, and not holding him responsible for his actions,, and in the mean time we are filling up prisons with "children " who have to learn real corporal punishment, when it should have been Mom and Dad training them instead, of the GESTAPO.

[FreakinDJ]

40. Will your absolutely correct

But many of Child Protective Service's policies takes the responsibility of training the child OUT of Mom and Dad's hands.

[notadmblnd]

49. I believe much is a result of children having children

these children have been taught nothing about being responsible, so how could anyone expect them to act responsible? It's the children that do have an excuse and the people held responsible should be the parents. I'm not saying they should be jailed, but parenting classes couldn't hurt.

[Jackpine Radical]

29. You're peddling a lot of misinformation. Juvenile crime has been dropping

since the mid-90's. Don't ask me to do your legwork for you. Go to the DOJ crime statistics sites and look it up for yourself. Also, a number of studies have shown that the best way to ensure recidivism is to throw a kid into a hard-core incarceration program, especially an adult jail or prison. Diversion programs actually work.

And quit saying Juvenal was a criminal. He was a very wise Classical writer.


Also, read this:

http://www.talkleft.com/story/2008/7/11/115527/304

A quarter century of "tough on crime" political rhetoric has in many states spilled over into the juvenile justice system, based on illogical platitudes like "commit an adult crime, do adult time." With the exception of a few status offenses like truancy, every crime is an "adult crime" in the sense that it can be committed by an adult. That's no reason to pretend that a 14 year old has the same maturity or reasoning ability (pdf) as an adult.

The "lock 'em up" strategy that prevails in our adult criminal justice system has infected the juvenile justice system, as well. Fortunately, as a New York Times editorial recognizes, there are more productive alternatives than shipping children off to juvenile (or adult) prisons where they'll be warehoused with minimal effort to rehabilitate.

One proven way to prevent borderline young offenders from becoming serious criminals is to treat them — and their families — in community-based counseling programs instead of shipping them off to juvenile facilities that are often hundreds of miles away from home. ... In addition to saving young lives, the community-based programs cost a lot less: $20,000 per child per year versus as much as $200,000 for holding a child in a juvenile facility.



In addition to the crusty old hard-liners who still think that the way to get votes is to be tougher on crime than the next legislator, the juvenile prison industry opposes reform.

Earlier this year, Gladys Carrión, the commissioner of New York’s Office of Children and Family Services, announced her intention to close five of the state’s 22 facilities for low-level offenders and an intake center in the Bronx. A longtime advocate of community-based therapies, Ms. Carrión was fiercely criticized by the unions and communities where the facilities are located.
A community-based treatment approach is not only less costly, it's a more effective means of preventing future crime.

About 80 percent of the young men who are placed in juvenile facilities in New York end up committing more crimes within three years of their release. Preliminary data from New York City suggests that the recidivism rate for the new community-based programs might be as low as 35 percent.
That's a lesson that needs to be learned and a reform that needs to be implemented in every state, even if prison unions and communities with economies that depend on juvenile prisons object.

[lazer47]

33. If you are right,,, then why is the cost of prisons and courts going up??

[Jackpine Radical]

39. Because sentences are getting longer, more things are being criminalized, etc.

Politicians have found it profitable to be "tough on crime." Read the excerpt I attached above to see how various economic interests want to increase the size of the prison industry. Incarceration is big business.

[lazer47]

41. Yes I agree,, However "Child Abuse" is becoming over used,

over worked, and understudied,, and underfunded,, "Child Abuse" has become a buzz word that most people use for an excuse to blame someone else instead of their own failures as a society.

[FreakinDJ]

36. you mean this Legislative Analys is propaganda ?

Estimated Number of Juvenile Felony Arrests Through 2004



Based on the juvenile arrest rates for the past five years and using population projections for juveniles for the next ten years, we estimated the likely growth in juvenile arrest rates through 2004.

http://ca.lwv.org/jj/jjsystem.htm

I'm not arguing that abuse is a precursor to criminal behavior, I just feel many of California's Child Protective Service's policies are an equal problem

<edited to add link>

[Jackpine Radical]

42. Here, from the DOJ:

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/content/pub/pdf/cv08.pdf

Violent and property crime rates remain at historic lows
in 2008
The violent crime rate has experienced a number of distinct
trends throughout the history of the NCVS. Initially, the rate
rose somewhat from 1973 to 1981 and declined until 1986.
The rate reached a high in 1994, followed by an extended,
sharp decline lasting until 2002. The violent crime rate has
remained generally stable since 2004.1 The rate in 2008
was 41% lower than it was 10 years earlier, and 63% below
the peak of 51.8 violent crimes per 1,000 persons age 12 or
older in 1994

Assault 27.4 16.3 -40.8*
Aggravated 6.7 3.3 -50.3*
Simple 20.8 12.9 -37.7*
Personal theftd 0.9 0.5 -41.4%*
Property crimes 198.0 134.7 -32.0%*
Household burglary 34.1 26.3 -22.8*
Motor vehicle theft 10.0 6.6 -34.1*
Theft 153.9 101.8 -33.9*
Note: In 1999 the total population age 12 or older was 224,568,370
and 252,242,520 in 2008. The total number of households in 1999
was 107,159,550 and 121,141,060 in 2008.
*Difference is significant at the 95%-confidence level.

Don't confuse arrest rates with crime rates. The 2 are essentially independent. If you want more arrests, just put more cops on the street. They'll find something to do.

[FreakinDJ]

44. But those are not Juvenile Criminality Rates

those are the "Over-all" numbers

[Jackpine Radical]

45. Here are some juvenile numbers.

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/228479.pdf


These findings are drawn from data that
local law enforcement agencies across the
country report to the FBI’s Uniform Crime
Reporting (UCR) Program. Based on these
data, the FBI prepares its annual Crime in
the United States statistical compilation,
which summarizes crimes known to the
police and arrests made during the report­
ing calendar year. This information is used
to describe the extent and nature of juve­
nile crime that comes to the attention of
the justice system.

* Throughout this Bulletin, youth younger than
age 18 are referred to as juveniles.

The juvenile murder arrest rate in 2008
was 3.8 arrests per 100,000 juveniles
ages 10 through 17. This was 17% more
than the 2004 low of 3.3, but 74% less
than the 1993 peak of 14.4.

X Between 1999 and 2008, juvenile arrests
for aggravated assault decreased more
for males than for females (22% vs.
17%). During this period, juvenile male
arrests for simple assault declined 6%
and female arrests increased 12%.

X The 2008 arrest rates for Violent Crime
Index offenses were substantially lower
than the rates in the 1994 peak year for
every age group younger than 40.

[Jackpine Radical]

47. **crickets**

Seems to have gotten awfully quiet in here suddenly.

[stopschoolpaddling]

32. This reminds of what the principal told me, "For some children it's the only way to get their

attention. If it's not working then we try something else." One 5 year old was paddled for hitting another child. Please explain to me how hitting a child is going to teach them that hitting is wrong. Besides that I met a child whose father told me he was paddled more than 30 times at this school last year. When were they going to figure out it wasn't working?

[FreakinDJ]

38. Agreed school paddling is BS

as with most forms of punishment administered by school administrators.

But Child Protective Services in California is always the FIRST to suggest incarcerating children, or mandated counseling sessions, or parenting classes for the parents. It hasn't been working much to the demise of our youth.

I think it is time for a complete re-examination of policies

[stopschoolpaddling]

11. What do all criminals on death row have in common?

Plenty of spankings during childhood.

[Jackpine Radical]

14. Absolutely.

[lazer47]

15. Not,,, They have in common that they MURDERED someone.

[Jackpine Radical]

18. Except for the ones who are factually innocent, of course.

On Feb 4, Innocence Project client Freddie Peacock became the 250th person exonerated through DNA testing in the U.S. His conviction was based in part on an alleged false confession, a factor in 27% of DNA exonerations.

[lazer47]

21. If that is the case then how many times was he or she spanked

if they are factually innocent,, there is no comparison,,

[Jackpine Radical]

4. People are forever looking to the Bible to justify their nastier impulses.

Xenophobia, witch hunting, slavery, and, yes, child abuse all have their Biblical defenders. As to whether corporal punishment harms kids, I think it depends on what you mean by "harm." If you think fear & anger are cool, then I think hitting kids is a good way to turn them into Rushbots and fundies. If you want kids to grow up with a loving and nurturing nature, a fundamental sense of security and a desire to explore the world, then other means of behavioral regulation are in order.

[MineralMan]

8. And whatever those nasty impulses are, it's easy to find a justification

for them somewhere in that scripture. Says a lot about the judeo-christian tradition, doesn't it.

[theoldman]

9. When I was a child the teachers used a paddle.

We were all Christian and none of the parents complained. I do not recall any child becoming worse as a result of being paddled. We got paddled because we deserved punishment. Kids are like mules, you have to get their attention. There is a big difference between getting a lick with a paddle and a beating with a belt.

[Jackpine Radical]

13. I went to a 1-room country school in which one teacher taught 8 grades.

Outhouses, a hand pump, a wood & coal stove, just like something out of the 19th century. I was there for my first 7 years of schooling (no kindergarten in that place & time). Of the little savages who were there in my era, at least 3 eventually got PhDs, and a 4th became a priest. There were no major discipline problems that I recall. I don't even recall a physical fight on the school grounds.

The teacher, a woman named Hilda Thorp, somehow ran the school with absolute control and discipline. She never used any sort of physical punishment.

[stopschoolpaddling]

37. "Kids are like mules"???!!! Of course, you were all Christians.

Thank you, you made my entire point with that statement.

[Ozymanithrax]

23. Children are spanked because that is what we've always done as a species.

It's evolutionary advantage... We are designed to pay attention to things that have hurt us before. It is called survival.

It's disadvantages... It is often overused to the point of abuse, and the human mind is a subtle instrument that can be taught more effectivly with gentler methods. Hell advertisers and the MSM contol us far more effectivly than crude public floggings. Our children can learn more effectivly by understanding their minds.

Main reason... It is easy. If our species didn't have hands, we wouldn't spank.

The bible is justification...and an excuse.

[Jackpine Radical]

35. Physical punishment is by no means universal in traditional cultures.

Case in point: The Ojibwa Indians:

http://www2.brandonu.ca/Library/cjns/5.1/mcshane.pdf

Hallowell (1955)also analyzed the emotional
structure of the traditional Ojibwa. Again a remarkably consistent and inte-
grated pattern emerged, stressing a multi-faceted pattern of emotional restraint
or inhibition which included: great fortitude and patience; the inhibition of any
expression of anger in interpersonal relations (that is, the maintenance of "amia-
bility and mildness"); suppression of impulses to tell someone else what to do
(which is congruent with the observed emphasis on independence and individual-
ism - there was no real political authority), which is also related to the lack of
restraint exercised upon children (no corporal punishment, adults afraid of
retaliation by children); reluctance to refuse a favor outright (Hallowell inter-
prets that this was an avoidance of arousing displeasure or anger in others);
everyone "left to his own way of thinking"; no overt expression of anger or
aggression Hallowell (1955)also analyzed the emotional
structure of the traditional Ojibwa. Again a remarkably consistent and inte-
grated pattern emerged, stressing a multi-faceted pattern of emotional restraint
or inhibition which included: great fortitude and patience; the inhibition of any
OJIBWA WORLD VIEW 117
expression of anger in interpersonal relations (that is, the maintenance of "amia-
bility and mildness"); suppression of impulses to tell someone else what to do
(which is congruent with the observed emphasis on independence and individual-
ism - there was no real political authority), which is also related to the lack of
restraint exercised upon children (no corporal punishment, adults afraid of
retaliation by children); reluctance to refuse a favor outright (Hallowell inter-
prets that this was an avoidance of arousing displeasure or anger in others);
everyone "left to his own way of thinking"; no overt expression of anger or
aggression

[stopschoolpaddling]

43. Anyway, my point was if you need justification for doing something ugly

you can find it in the Bible. That way you are off the hook and don't have to evaluate your own actions. It's mindlessness at its best. That's all I wanted to say.
Outside of corporal punishment in schools and maybe a few too many bible thumpers and over zealous ministers, the Arkansas ozark region is one of the most beautiful places to live and raise children on a less than modest income. I'm sorry I got into Arkansas bashing, it was the Bible that I have a problem with and wonder if we wouldn't have been better off if it had never been written.

[patrice]

48. Self-justification is a powerful tool. It frequently makes the NT as though it never happened.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

50. Jesus approved of cruelty and suffering and killing your disobedient kids. LOTS and LOTS of it.

Just a few samples of what Jesus said and approved of in the Gospels:

MATTHEW

Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. Matthew 5:17

Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death."
Matthew 10:21

Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." Matthew 18:8-9

Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. Matthew 24:37

Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." Matthew 25:41


MARK
Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell.
Mark 4:11-12

# Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) Mark 7:9-10

# If you're ashamed of Jesus, he'll be ashamed of you. (And you'll go straight to hell.) Mark 8:38

# Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell.
Mark 9:43-49

# Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. Mark 16:16


LUKE
# Jesus heals a naked man who was possessed by many devils by sending the devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the sea. This messy, cruel, and expensive (for the owners of the pigs) treatment did not favorably impress the local residents, and Jesus was asked to leave. Luke 8:27-37

# Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. Luke 10:10-15

# Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. Luke 12:5

# Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." Luke 12:46-47

# "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Luke 13:3, 5

# According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." Luke 13:23-30

# In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus.
Luke 16:19-31

# Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody.
Luke 17:26-27

# Jesus also believes the story about Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed ... Remember Lot's wife." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. Luke 17:29-32

# In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:22-27


=================

The Bible has to be cherry picked because it is a complete mess of stuff not written when Jesus was alive, translated, rearranged, edited,changed for political reasons, removed, put back, passed down from older civilizations (like the flood of Gilgamesh).....you name it.

[damyank913]

51. You obviously need someone to guide you through the bible...

so you can be shown when Jesus was only kidding ;)

[stopschoolpaddling]

52. Wow, thank you, I've always had a real aversion to the bible but I never had all the knowledge

of why I couldn't stand it. All your points are well taken and make sense to me. I have saved your posts so I can look up the passages and confirm it all for myself even though I completely believe every word you say. Thanks Again.