Atheists: Do You "Pray"?

[arwalden]

Actually, I'm not asking if you literally "pray"... but whenever you're in a public setting (or at family gatherings) and someone makes a call-to-prayer, do you pretend to pray?

Do you go along with the charade and bow-your-head and close-your-eyes? Do you say "amen" along with everyone else at the end of the prayer (or blessing)?

At most, I'm only willing to remain silent while the believers beg and grovel to their deity. I'll even hold-hands with family members whenever someone says grace (see postscript) at the dinner table. But I won't lower my head, nor will I close my eyes to show "respect" to a non-existent deity. I do not say "amen".

Even though I remain silent, I wonder... considering that I *do* participate in the ritual, I *am* pretending to pray. Clearly, by my joining in with the hand-holding circle, I'm giving them the impression that I'm also a believer. Does that make me a hypocrite?


-- Allen

PS: One thing that REALLY annoys me about how many in my family say "grace" is that it goes FAR beyond thanking a deity for providing food.

Instead of a simple grace along the lines of "for-what-we-are-about-to-receive-may-we-be-truly-humble-amen" ... some in my family start rambling off a litany of things that they are thankful for, and that they need help with, and specific people to bless, and bless our president, and keep our soldiers safe, and on and on and on.

It's one of the most irritating and nerve-grating experiences! I just want to scream SHUT THE FUCK UP and EAT!

edit: typo, clarity

[noamnety]

1. I used to when I was younger

Now I just sit quietly and wait it out. I figured out it's silly to close my eyes, because the only way it would offend them to see mine open is if theirs were open, too.

NO PEEKING!

[bowens43]

2. O don't pretend to pray but

I do bow my head,close my eyes and wait quietly for it to be over. I see no reason to offend those who believe differently then I do.

[greekspeak]

10. What I do as well. I don't want to offend people, esp. those close to me

If they want to believe in that which I think is a slew of myths they are free to do so. If it makes them feel better, and does not harm anyone else, what is the problem with it?

I do wish I could get more people I know to actually read their holy literature, as well as the literature concerning the real history and beliefs of thier religion. This goes for the denominational level too.

My problem with religion is not with this kind of display of praying over dinner, or at a funeral, or what ever. My problem is when these RW fundivangelical types want to legally impose their religion on the rest of America. America, heretofore, has never been a fundivangelical nation. There have been times when state and Christian religious beleif have unsuccessfully merged. Think prohibition. What a miserable failure that was.

[KarenS]

3. I do about the same,,,,,

in a circle, I hold hands but do not bow my head or shut my eyes.

I do support another's right to pray & enjoy a moment of silence/tranquility tho.

thankgoodnes I don't belong to a family that engages in saying "Grace"

I don't feel like a hypocrite.

(btw I stand during the Pledge of Allegiance but do not cover my heart or say the words.)

[BeyondThePale]

4. At our dinner table, we clasp hands and go around...

the table and say one thing that we are thankful for that day. Not to a diety (as we are atheists), but as a way of appreciating the people and things in our life. I like the idea of introducing a sense of appreciation in my boys. Guests are welcome to partake in this, but it is understood that there is to be no proselytizing.

[Warren Stupidity]

5. How about volunteering to give an atheist version of grace?

As in: "I hope that we can all find the strength and wisdom to understand and do what is right in all situations, that we share our fortune with others and that in our times of misfortune our friends are many and caring." Or anything similar, and see how they put up with your spiritual viewpoint. If they can't, you no longer have to put up with theirs.

I generally don't rock the boat, but nor do I mumble mumbo-jumbo or otherwise actively participate. I welcome any form of silent meditation.

Go in peace.

[donco6]

6. I try to respect the host's beliefs, but I don't pretend to believe.

I have a hard time with the Pledge of Allegiance's "under God" thing. It's a little dangerous in my position to make it obvious that I'm not saying it. I kinda mumble some "Uh-u Uh" thing. I do feel a little guilty about that. Maybe I'm just too chicken.

[wli]

7. I was compelled to go along while a child

I avoid situations where I'd be called upon to do things like this like the plague now.

[biscotti]

8. A line stolen from George Carlin

"I pray to Joe Pesci" It was in one of his religion rants. I loved it.
In reality I just become mute and bare through it.

[kweerwolf]

9. That's been a tricky issue at some family gatherings

I'm not exactly an atheist. If I had to define my belief system it would probably be more along the lines of a universalism with a strong belief that my spirituality is a very private matter that I don't wave around for the benefit or others at family events, etc.

That being said ... I have a nephew who is a Southern Baptist minister. I geniunely like him and have had many discussions with him (but realize there are areas of discussion that it would be mutually beneficial to avoid). However, I find his prayers over food to be intolerable. Not only are they long, overblown affairs, but he has interjected right-wing political statements in them such as asking God to bless anti-abortion politicians.

In the past I've made it a point of walking out of the house just prior to prayer. That resulted in a very chilly gathering that was uncomfortable for everyone.

Last Christmas I volunteered to help at a homeless kitchen and made a later appearance at the family gathering. When I got a catty remark from the minister's wife about my absence eariler in the day, I replied that I thought God wanted us to feed the poor.

While I have strong disagreements with they type of prayers offered at family events, I will do my best to avoid those situations and attend at a time when I know the prayer has already been offered.

[Nomad559]

11. I make no apologies for my Atheism

I do not pray or hold hands at any gathering.

I will either leave the room while they pray, or I will quietly sit or stand somewhere In the room while they pray.

This above all: To Thine Own Self Be True

:)

[rock]

12. I just remain silent but keep my head up and eyes open

How can anyone be offended, this is about MY beliefs.

[crikkett]

13. Once at a dinner of atheists/agnostics...

... we stood around the table and ooohed and aaahed the food that each other brought and said profound 'thank yous' as we sat down to eat together in the cool evening air of my backyard. Then the eldest of us snapped to with this happy observation: 'we've just said grace!'

It was surprising and funny, and more meaningful to me than any prayer I've ever heard spoken over food.

It made me realize that we are around so much food that it's taken for granted. I could imagine how in the past, when things weren't so cushy for the average person, folks really were grateful for their food -- including the life of the animal sacrificed for the meal, an animal they could have known personally. But even today an awful lot of work and care goes into raising and preparing the food we eat, much of it by underpaid and unappreciated strangers.

So I have learned to be grateful for my food, and for the effort involved in getting it to me. I don't resent grace anymore, even if I have to hold hands while someone self-consciously goes on and on and on beseeching an entity I don't believe in with a laundry list of pleas and blessings. It only gives me more time to think about how good my life is and how lucky I am to be with people I love.

Even the most vehemently atheist I know will not turn down a blessing, and I recognize prayer as real and powerful emotion that isn't completely understood. So what if it's over food?

Great, now I'm hungry :9

[pop goes the weasel]

14. No

but I will hold hands in a circle among family or friends. I will also offer at the beginning to be the one to give thanks--which I render as purely secular, listing off all those individuals to whom I am thankful and asking others to join in. So far, no one has complained.

The problematic prayers for me are the ones at public events, and the pledge. I do not participate in either, and wouldn't even if I were a believer. Such prayers are obviously not intended as worship but as a nationalistic rite, designed to ferret out the nonconformist and cow the fearful.

[cosmik debris]

15. I'm not about to pretend.

If it is possible, I leave the room and let the prayer people have their turn. If it is not possible, I try to ignore them and just stand/sit quietly until it is over.

To me it is like watching a screaming parent yell at their kids in the grocery store. I really want to tell them that they are not doing any good, but I am smart enough to know that I can't win in that situation. Just let it go.

[Zhade]

16. No, but I remain quiet so others can.

I don't take part in superstitious rituals, but I am polite enough to let others do so.

I just sit there, eyes open, head unbowed, and wait.

[applegrove]

17. I was taught to pray as a child so it is natural to me. I believe the

bible is a great book but a book of its time. I love the golden rule. I believe that is an amazing miracle. That we humans somehow along the way learn how to conquer fear with love.

I pray easily and naturally at funerals. When the person passing on - I feel comfy meditating to their god. I don't pray to a god for my own needs. I pray to my ancestors if I feel the need. I think of them. Or meditate.Sharing your burden works. So does sending your love.

I don't have all the answers. I don't pretend to. There surely is a shitload of magic in the universe. I don't have the answers any better than anybody else does.

Why shouldn't I pray? A congregation is no place to be making statements on ones individuality. It is a congregation. And I believe in that. I believe in team play. If I made a good team player as a child - why would I drop that team play when it is something important like saying goodbye?

[catbert836]

18. Me and my uncle do at Thanksgiving, Christmas, etc.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not an athiest, my uncle is. But we both are not Christians, which the rest of our family is.
We have enough respect for the rest of our family that we won't defy them in this way. From my point of view, it's like mocking them and asking them to do something about it, which is something that just shouldn't be done while we're all together.
Although maybe it's more bearable because my family only recites the traditional Catholic grace (Bless us oh Lord, and these thy gifts which we are about to recieve from thy bounty through Christ our lord, amen). They've never once extended it.

[shrike]

29. Boy, does that bring back memories

Every meal, throughout my childhood. My dad was devout, but cool enough to let us rush through it. (We were a family of eight.) Boy, we could say that prayer in a blue streak.

Although I still attend mass, I haven't said grace in years except at family gatherings. One of those traditions that was immediately knocked out of me when I moved out of the house.

[enki23]

19. only when it's necessary to avoid unnecessary pain

i'm not averse to lying, when lying causes less pain than the truth. for instance, i'm not going to give my grandparents reason to go after my other family members for failing to save my soul. still, i mostly just sit quietly with my head unbowed. denial tends to work its magic from there.

[Stevepol]

20. I'm not an atheist but I believe the posts on this thread are more sincere

than the usual brand of "outward" prayer to be seen of men. This is exactly the distinction that Christ made between the prayer of the fellow that was made to be seen of men and the other who prayed sincerely from the heart.

And Christ said we should go to a closet to pray. It shd be sincere and from the secret place w/i. Those who pray for outward show already "have their reward" as Christ put it. Those who pray sincerely and without outward show are storing up the energy for the "kingdom of heaven," that is, the awareness of God's presence in all the people we meet, no matter how much they are ignored or disdained by others. And it's adding to our own inner store of "right-thinking" or "righteousness" (which in Isaiah and most of the Bible means thinking right about your brother and wanting to help him as you can, the one who's poorer than you, the orphan, the widow)

I also had a Japanese student who described in a journal entry this religious experience: she had told somebody that she didn't think she could know what God to worship of if she was praying properly. She is dating a Muslim and knows Christians and Buddhists. The friend she was talking to told her, who do you pray to when a friend is sick? You don't pray to a person to help your friend. You pray to God. So you're already praying to God. The Japanese girl said she felt much better because she realized she was praying all right and that her God and religion are OK. It made me think.

[beam me up scottie]

21. Nope.

Sitting or standing quietly is all I can manage.

[SidDithers]

22. Head up, eyes forward....

My wife and I are both athiests, but attend church every couple of months because Grandma takes our kids on Sunday mornings and they both sing in the junior choir. We go when they sing in front of the congregation - it's a small trade-off, but 3 hours of peace and quiet every Sunday morning is worth having to endure a sermon every couple of months.

Funny thing is, during prayer time, with my wife and I quietly not praying, we often spot the Minister sneeking a peek at his flock to see who's praying and who isn't.

Sid

[arwalden]

24. Funny...

<< ... we often spot the Minister sneeking a peek at his flock to see who's praying and who isn't. >>

In my mind's eye, I'm picturing a Rev. Lovejoy type... looking over the congregation to see if he can spot any Homer's.

[shrike]

30. Very nice of you to do that

It means a lot to Grandma, I assure you, and if nothing else it's building a bond between her and the kids.

My stepdaughter and her husband have no particular belief system at all, but they're cool about letting the kids go to church with friends, sing carols at Christmas, etc. Their kids are growing up to be tolerant people who've had a lot of different experiences with different people.

[SidDithers]

33. Thanks for the kind words :) nt.

Sid

[YankeyMCC]

23. I stand quietly

and let the people who want to pray do so. But I usually make it pretty clear I'm not praying by not bowing my head, folding my arms or something.

[grumpy old fart]

25. It's about manners, which at its core is about not making folks...........

uncomfortable. There is no reason to offend believers by challenging their faith, and there is no reason you must speak. Holding hands and/or keeping silent should not offend an atheist/agnostic and should not offend the believers.

[shrike]

28. No argument there

A meal with loved ones can be a lovely communal experience, and although I almost never say grace on my own (despite the fact that I am a semi-practicing, rather lousy Catholic) I have no problem with anybody saying whatever grace they wish. I would never expect a non-believer to pretend to pray, but the courteous thing to do is to wait quietly, clasp hands if everyone else is doing so, and wait 'til the prayer has ended.

I once attended a Hindu wedding. Many of the traditions seemed strange and even silly to a Christian like me. However, I remained quiet and tried to be as unobtrusive as possible, because obviously these rituals meant something to my hosts.

[GOPFighter]

26. Sort of

If I'm with people I respect, I will bow my head while they pray out of respect for their tradition. But they most likely know I don't believe in the tradition. It's all about respect.

I often wonder just how many people around me who "pray" at public events or Thanksgiving dinners, or at funerals, etc., really believe there is a god who is listening or cares. I suspect for a lot of them it's just a ritual expected expected of them.

[Dogmudgeon]

27. Anyone can pray

It's a gesture, not a loyalty oath.

I don't believe a thing, but sometimes I'm a devout Christian, or Buddhist, or whatever-ist, as the situation warrants. Whether for play, to make someone feel better, or to use a common cultural "language", it's my prerogative to profess creed or deny all belief, as I see fit.

When my devoutly religious grandmother was dying, she was quite upset that I would be grief-stricken when she passed away. I had often spoken against the stupidities of religion in general. I told her that I was happy to let God decide the moment of her transit, and that I would see her again when he allowed me to cross over as well.

I can't say I believe that's so, but it made her feel a lot better. She died within 24 hours, greatly relieved.

Besides, I can't say I really know for sure about things like God and life after death. Sometimes I hope that's the way the universe runs, but I don't believe it.

Credo quia absurdum est -- ita vero si credo.

--p!
I believe because it's absurd -- if indeed I believe anything.
(St. Augustine with a little bit from Pigwidgeon.)

[Modem Butterfly]

31. I don't want to be rude, so I remain quiet...

BUT I'M THINKING AND USING LOGIC THE ENTIRE TIME!

:evilgrin:

[greyl]

32. At a previous job, "we" held hands and prayed before work.

I always felt like I was betraying myself for just going along in order to satisfy my financial need. I had my first clue when I called to answer their ad and the phone greeting was "Praise the Lord!". I was in such a self-promotional frame of mind while searching for work that I didn't balk.

In case anyone is wondering, I found out that since they had under 15 employees a legal case couldn't be made against them. ;)

[onager]

34. Absolutely Cheneying not, despite job-related social pressure...

This was one of my personal high points! At a job-related dinner, all of a sudden some self-appointed company "chaplain" got up and started a pre-prandial Supplication To Jebus.

At the time I was sitting across from one of my favorite women in the company. About the same time I was bellowing "WTF???" at this nonsense, she was saying, "Jebus Effing Christ! Are we back in Sixth Grade or something?"

The two of us got up and just walked right the fuck out of the formal fucking dining room, arm in arm, and went back to the bar. I'm happy to report that we were followed by a motley collection of non-believers, Jews, Sikhs, Muslims, Buddhists and other Off-Brand, Non-Jebus-Believing people who just wanted to eat their dinner in peace and not be harangued by some dumbass wanna-be missionary.

I guess HR was deluged with e-mails about this God-Bothering Dope, because he never showed his face again at any of these Mandatory Fun Dinners.

[Nevernose]

35. That's a terrible thing to say about prayer!

One of my fondest memories of childhood is that of my Grandfather praying before dinner at every meal. He always called upon Jesus to bless the food, thanked him for relative luckiness in life (he also supported missionaries, partly because of religion and partly because he grew up poor and couldn't bear the thought of the less-fortunate going hungry), and took the time to bless every one at the table individually. If he didn't know about something good in that person's life, then he was by God at least thankful that they were there. If we'd grown up like him, then something like a heartbeat would be worth praise to God.

We didn't start going around in a chain until my radical pot-smoking lesbian aunt "returned to Christ" in a fundamentalist church, but even then most of the prayers were sincere. The only exceptions were my father (a devout atheist) and my cousin and me (who were kids, and were both essentially Bart Simpson).

Maybe you just have a problem with the insincere people in your own family, rather than with prayer at all? because some people do indeed mean it; I've known to many of them too well to doubt it.

And, for the record, these days I'm more of a scientific agnostic than an atheist (though whether my agnosticism comes from an annoying recurrance of a positive mental attitude or that beautifully horrific combination of rohipinal and LSD a few years ago I'm not quite sure ;)).