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A source for a point by point refutation of "The Age of Reason"?

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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 01:12 PM
Original message
A source for a point by point refutation of "The Age of Reason"?
Googled it and can't really find a source that takes up each of Paine's points and refutes them. Surely there are some fundie sources out there that do this.
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
1. Paine cannot be refuted. Fundies have smeared him, tried to ignore him
but they cannot answer his challenge.

They have fabricated horrific stories of his death, which are untrue. They have called him an "atheist", which was untrue. They tried to write him out of US history until his memory was revived largely due to the efforts of Robert Ingersoll in the late 1800s.

The current strategy of the fundies is to praise Paine for "Common Sense" and "The Rights of Man" and just pretend that he never wrote "The Age of Reason".

The arguments in "The Age of Reason" have not been answered. The argument in the Part One against revealed religion cannot be answered.

The specific instances of contradictions in the Bible in Part Two have been answered, but the answerers come off as very ad-hoc and contrived.

I think the US would be a better place if more copies of "The Age of Reason" were in circulation. If I had great wealth, I would print inexpensive quality paperbacks of "Reason" and Robert Ingersoll's works and advertise for them on TV, radio, billboards, in newspapers and in magazines like "People" and "US News and World Report". I would love to see a revival of the Freethought Movement.

***

Thomas Paine's "The Age of Reason"
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.shtml

Robert Ingersoll's "Why I Am Agnostic"
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/why_i_am_agnostic.htm

*****

From "The Age of Reason" by Thomas Paine (1795)

EVERY national church or religion has established itself by pretending some special mission from God, communicated to certain individuals. The Jews have their Moses; the Christians their Jesus Christ, their apostles and saints; and the Turks their Mahomet; as if the way to God was not open to every man alike. Each of those churches shows certain books, which they call revelation, or the Word of God. The Jews say that their Word of God was given by God to Moses face to face; the Christians say, that their Word of God came by divine inspiration; and the Turks say, that their Word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from heaven. Each of those churches accuses the other of unbelief; and, for my own part, I disbelieve them all.

When I am told that the Koran was written in Heaven, and brought to Mahomet by an angel, the account comes to near the same kind of hearsay evidence and second hand authority as the former. I did not see the angel myself, and therefore I have a right not to believe it. When also I am told that a woman, called the Virgin Mary, said, or gave out, that she was with child without any cohabitation with a man, and that her betrothed husband, Joseph, said that an angel told him so, I have a right to believe them or not: such a circumstance required a much stronger evidence than their bare word for it: but we have not even this; for neither Joseph nor Mary wrote any such matter themselves. It is only reported by others that they said so. It is hearsay upon hearsay, and I do not chose to rest my belief upon such evidence.

It is, however, not difficult to account for the credit that was given to the story of Jesus Christ being the Son of God. He was born when the heathen mythology had still some fashion and repute in the world, and that mythology had prepared the people for the belief of such a story. Almost all the extraordinary men that lived under the heathen mythology were reputed to be the sons of some of their gods. It was not a new thing at that time to believe a man to have been celestially begotten; the intercourse of gods with women was then a matter of familiar opinion. Their Jupiter, according to their accounts, had cohabited with hundreds; the story therefore had nothing in it either new, wonderful, or obscene; it was conformable to the opinions that then prevailed among the people called Gentiles, or mythologists, and it was those people only that believed it. The Jews, who had kept strictly to the belief of one God, and no more, and who had always rejected the heathen mythology, never credited the story.

It is curious to observe how the theory of what is called the Christian Church, sprung out of the tail of the heathen mythology. A direct incorporation took place in the first instance, by making the reputed founder to be celestially begotten. The trinity of gods that then followed was no other than a reduction of the former plurality, which was about twenty or thirty thousand. The statue of Mary succeeded the statue of Diana of Ephesus. The deification of heroes changed into the canonization of saints. The Mythologists had gods for everything; the Christian Mythologists had saints for everything. The church became as crowded with the one, as the pantheon had been with the other; and Rome was the place of both. The Christian theory is little else than the idolatry of the ancient mythologists, accommodated to the purposes of power and revenue; and it yet remains to reason and philosophy to abolish the amphibious fraud.


***

Thomas Paine's The Age of Reason - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/thomas_paine/age_of_reason/index.shtml

Complete Works of Robert Ingersoll - Online
http://www.infidels.org/library/historical/robert_ingersoll/index.shtml





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grumpy old fart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #1
2. Sources for the Part II refutation? Just want to see how they try to get
around the obvious. I know the arguments against doing away with religion all together, as summed up nicely in Ben Franklin's letter to Paine on the book:

But, were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? You yourself may find it easy to live a virtuous life, without the assistance afforded by religion; you having a clear perception of the advantages of virtue, and the disadvantages of vice, and possessing a strength of resolution sufficient to enable you to resist common temptations. But think how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women, and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes, who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue, and retain them in the practice of it till it becomes habitual, which is the great point for its security. And perhaps you are indebted to her originally, that is, to your religious education, for the habits of virtue upon which you now justly value yourself. You might easily display your excellent talents of reasoning upon a less hazardous subject, and thereby obtain a rank with our most distinguished authors. For among us it is not necessary, as among the Hottentots, that a youth, to be raised into the company of men, should prove his manhood by beating his mother.
I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person; whereby you will save yourself a great deal of mortification by the enemies it may raise against you, and perhaps a good deal of regret and repentance. If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be if without it.

It's always, the opiate of the masses thing....
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. They do not NAME "Age of Reason" in refutation; humanism is answer
The people who take the task of refuting "The Age of Reason" do not name the book because they do not want to call attention to it. There are plenty of people who have never heard of "The Age of Reason" and religionists want to keep it that way.

Their refutations can be found in any number of Christian Apologetics books. Their arguments always seem contrived; they stretch the limits of interpretation to make things fit.

As far as doing "away with religion altogether", I don't think that was Paine's aim. He was trying to do away with phony so-called revealed religions that were used to exploit people for power and profit.

He professed a sincere belief and worship of the Almighty Creator, and considered the ludicrous claims of revealed religion to be slanderous to God.

Personally, I think we could do away with both revealed religion and the notion of the supernatural and embrace the naturalistic religion of Secular Humanism.


Secular Humanism
http://www.secularhumanism.org

Secular Web
http://www.infidels.org/index.shtml

The Freethought Zone
Science and Reason Over Religion and Superstition

http://freethought.freeservers.com

Freedom from Religion Foundation
http://www.ffrf.org
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FtWayneBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #3
4. For what it's worth,
I think that the divine resides within all. Everything is a product of the initial "big bang" of evolutionary creation, and in time all will be brought together again to repeat the cycle. I beleive the divine creator blasted itself into the bits all things are made of, and will re-assemble at some future date to reflect on how this cycle turned out, and begin anew.

"Thou art god/goddess."
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NAO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-01-05 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Drink Deep, my fellow multi-ego pantheistic solipsist
Thou Art God
Waiting Is
Fullness Comes
until then, Share Water.
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