Was Jesus a Christian?

[truthpusher]

I say he wasn't - Christianity is focused on a 'Christ', a savior. My impression of Jesus, is that he did not want people to look to a Christ for salvation...but to themselves.

[intheflow]

1. Jesus was Jewish.

I don't think he would have thought of himself as anything else. And the Roman Army sure thought he was a Jew.

Personally, I like to think he was a Unitarian. At least we can be pretty sure he wasn't a Trinitarian! LOL.

[DanCa]

4. I thought god was Elton John :D

Cmon I dare you to lesson to the first few bars of beyond the yellow brick road and tell me there's not some divine influnce in that man's voice.

[intheflow]

13. Are you kidding?

Tat whole album was an inspired piece of work! :hi:

[DemBones DemBones]

5. Why do you think Jesus wasn't a

Trinitarian?

[intheflow]

12. Because

the concept of the Trinity was created by the early church starting around 170 CE and was canonized into doctrine in 381 at th Council of Constantinople.

Even Jesus himself said that "The Lord our God is one Lord." (Mark 12:29) That's one God, not three. Do not be confused with the Lord word. It's a Christian rewrite that "Lord" has come to be synonymous with Jesus. Jews use the word Lord for God, but you can't argue that Jews are Trinitarians, they definitely only believe in one God.

I'm really just making a joke. Unitarians believe in one God (not three aspects of god, or trinitarian theology). But I'm not actually suggesting that Jesus' faith was anything akin to modern Unitarianism.

*edited for clarity.

[catbert836]

35. The Trinity wasn't even original, I think.

The Jews had no concept of a Trinity, but the early Christians needed, for whatever reason, a different god to worship than Yahweh. So they burrowed the concept of one god in three different persons from a religion to the east called Hinduism, which featured (and still does) Brahma as the creator, Vishnu as the preserver, and Shiva as the destroyer.
Just my $0.02

[tuvor]

2. "I am the way and the truth and the life."

"No one comes to the Father except through me."

[truthpusher]

6. Were those words actually the words of Jesus?...

...and if they were, what do they mean?...direct and literal interpretation of the bible makes me feel a bit queasy. I like to see the heart in things. My overall impression from the 'heart' of what Jesus was doing...had nothing to do with creating or declaring a God of himself. Was he here to teach loving-kindness? and if so, what is so kind and loving about standing on a mountain and declaring oneself "God"?

[DemBones DemBones]

9. Jesus was here for many reasons.

Saying "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life" didn't stop Jesus from teaching about love, about helping the poor, the sick, those in prison, strangers, and much more.

In other words, Jesus didn't come on the scene just to proclaim His divinity or show off His powers -- after all, He could have worked dozens of miracles daily to convince the unbelievers. Jesus came primarily to teach about the love of God and what God wants us to do.

Jesus's status as the only Son of God has, I think, equal importance with what He taught. Equal importance, not greater importance.

[Tux]

11. What it means

Is "Here, I showed you bitches how not to act as asshats so God won't get mad."

[PsychoDad]

24. Indeed...

"No one comes to the Father except through me" meaning the teachings and example of Jesus (pbuh). In other words, If you wish to come closer to God, be like me.

Considering that the divinity of Christ is such a prominent factor in modern Christianity it seems a major oversight that Jesus never said, even in the Christian scriptures, "I am God, worship me". Indeed, Jesus constantly refers to himself as "the son of man", and emphatically asserts over and over that all that he does is not of him and would not be possible without God. Jesus also warns against those who would do great works and prophecy in his name, the name of Jesus, for on the day of judgment, Jesus will say to them, "Depart from me, for I knew you not".

[DanCa]

3. Not a Bush Christian.......at any rate

They act a hundred and ten percent different than my god. Do I consider myself a christian, I don't know, everyday I feel more like the tv character Angel, from the show angel the series, and BTVS, and I have to fight my own kind. Angel is a vampire who fought other vampires, i constantly findmyelf fighting the religious right and believing in a god. So if I am that clueless as too labeling my existing imagine as to how inept i am at labeling what I imagine as the "creator" of the universe. Assuming one believes in such things.

[truthpusher]

8. The problem lies with the 'label'...

...you are exactly in the place that Jesus (as far as I can....feel) wanted us to be...in a place where we can no longer define God as an it, a thing or a person...I think that God is the act...the act of creating. We all were, of course, created from something...and that act of creation (however it happened) was God. Creation rises from love, right? When was the last time you felt the presence or what you thought was the presence of God...think about it...was the act of some sort of creation happening at the time?

[DemBones DemBones]

7. Jesus said he was the Way, the Truth, and the Life,

among other statements indicating that He was in fact the Messiah, the Saviour, the Jews had been waiting for. Of course Jesus was a Jew. Jesus said He came not to overthrow the law (of the Jews) but to fulfill it, as one might expect of the Messiah. He departed from the Torah and the Ten Commandments a bit by emphasizing that the two great commandments are to love the Lord your God with all your heart and to love your neighbor as much as you love yourself.

Jesus also said He would prepare a place for us in His Father's house, i.e., Heaven, and at the Last Supper, he told the Apostles as He broke the bread "This is my body, given up for you. Eat this and you will live forever." Over the wine, Jesus said, "This is the cup of my blood. Drink this in memory of me."

Jesus knew He had to die for the salvation of mankind. He knew that His death was prefigured throughout the Old Testament.

All this points to Jesus knowing He was the Messiah, the Saviour, the Christ. He also said "There is no way to the Father but through me."

Jesus did not name his followers Christians, however, that name arose later.

And since a Christian is a follower of Christ Jesus, Jesus himself was not a Christian, could not be, in one sense. If Jesus were merely human, He couldn't follow His own teachings in the same way that others did; i.e., Jesus didn't have to teach Himself what was necessary for salvation. He came to teach everyone else.

Then again, Christians follow Jesus as the Son of God, and Jesus certainly followed God the Father. Since He was part of God, it could be argued that Jesus did follow His own teachings, and was a Christian.

[truthpusher]

10. What Gospel did Jesus declare his "Godness" in...

...was it John? It is my understanding that the Gospel of John may very well have been written as a sort of rebut to some of the other Gospels written at the time. I am no scholar, certainly, but I am a pretty good judge of character and a decent observer. Why would Jesus say and do all of the things he did just to bring it all back to the same old paradigm that was in the time of Moses....God, God, God...Worship me, Worship me, etc. etc. What Jesus taught was revolutionary, it was paradigm shifting!! I think all of the "I am God" statements are either misleading or misinterpreted statements...for me they just don't work in the context of what was showing through Jesus at the time.

[H2O Man]

15. Jesus uses the term

"Son of Man." By no small coincidence, that term fits with the language and thought of his time. It means that he was mankind's representative to the Divine, quite literally an example of the good potential. The term "Christ," of course, is not representative of the language or thought of his time. There is absolutely nothing in the gospels thatindicates Jesus would have identified with the implications of the word "Christ" .... far from it.

[arwalden]

14. While In Germany, I Visited An Art Museum And Saw...

... some 15th century Italian paintings depicting Mary and the Christ child. I was astonished to see that both Mary and the Christ child were wearing necklaces that were sporting the CHRISTIAN CROSS symbol.

So apparently, Christ was a Christian even as an infant... and they ALREADY KNEW that he would be killed on the cross.

Other paintings depicted Christ being layed to rest... but all the people in the painting were wearing clothes that were clearly 15th century EUROPEAN styled. Even the background buildings in the painting made it appear that Christ's body had been transferred to ITALY to be buried.

No wonder everyone believes in a WHITE Christ.

[DemBones DemBones]

23. Go to Asia and you can see Jesus and Mary,

Joseph, angels, etc., portrayed as Chinese, Flipino, etc., depending on where you are.

And in Italy today, Nativity scenes in Florence make it look as if Jesus was born in a stable not far from Florence; you see Il Duomo and other landmarks in the distance, the Nativity in the foreground. Kind of like Americans who set up a toy train that circles around the Christmas creche.

Most people know, however, that Jesus was Jewish and presumably dark-haired and olive-complexioned, and that there were no trains in Israel in his time. It's likely that He is still portrayed as white in Western culture because of the tremendous influence of the painters of the Italian Rennaissance, who painted the first truly realistic portraits (along with some painters in other parts of Europe, Gruenwald and Durer in Germany, for example.) All that imagery still influences our perceptions today. Additionally, a great deal of artistic symbolism developed and was used in religious art, symbolism that was widely understood by ordinary people at the time but that we have to study in art history classes or books today. Now that everyone can read, we have a much smaller vocabulary of visual symbols.

The cross is often shown in paintings of Madonna and Child, and not just the cross but the other "Instruments of the Passion" (the whip or scourge, the spear, the crown of thorns) as a prefiguring of how Jesus would die, as symbols. It was known that Jesus would die for His people. The birth of Jesus and His life and death are all prefigured in the Old Testament.

When Jesus as a small baby was taken to the Temple to be consecrated, an old man there, Simeon, had a revelation and knew the baby Jesus was to be the Saviour. Simeon told Mary and Joseph that Jesus would grow up to be the Messiah.

[arwalden]

26. Hmmm...

... I don't think that's the same thing. People set up nativity scenes where they happen to live, but that doesn't mean that they are trying to convey the idea that Christ was born in their own hometown.

<< Kind of like Americans who set up a toy train that circles around the Christmas crèche. >>

Huh? It's nothing like that at all. It's very unlikely that anyone who created such a tacky display was *trying* to convey the message that there were trains circling around the stable in Bethlehem.

Although I haven't personally seen anyone set up a model train set around a crèche... I'll take your word for it. -- Anyone who does that is just over-killing with Xmas decorations.

That reminds me: Last Christmas, my two-houses-down neighbor set up a plastic Santa figurine, a plastic snowman figurine, and plastic carolers RIGHT NEXT to his plastic creche. (All lighted from inside... truly a sight to behold!) -- I don't think that he was trying to convince people that Santa, Frosty, and Dickensian carolers were present either.

<< Most people know, however, that Jesus was Jewish and presumably dark-haired and olive-complexioned, and that there were no trains in Israel in his time. >>

That's probably not true. I'm pretty confident that whenever "most people" envision Jesus, they think of the images that appear in the color prints found in many KJV-1611's.

As far as the trains are concerned, I seriously doubt that there was EVER any confusion on that point. So you're probably right about the fact that people aren't likely to think that there were trains in Israel.

<< Simeon told Mary and Joseph that Jesus would grow up to be the Messiah. >>

I figured they already knew by then. I would have thought that on the first night--virgin birth, the wise men, angel, and guiding star would have been dead giveaways.

[grumpy old fart]

28. Minor point, the wise men weren't there at the birth......

of course, they probably weren't there at all, but that's beside the point.

[DemBones DemBones]

29. I notice you ignored everything I said about

Jesus being depicted as Filipino and Chinese.

That's one way to uphold your idea that *everyone* sees Jesus as white.

At least you were interested in the train. . . But you didn't grasp that Florentines make creches that show the Holy Family with the angels, shepherds, etc., near models of the landmarks of Florence for the same reason that white Italian artists depicted Jesus as a white Italian, i.e., they use models that are familiar and available, not because they think Jesus was Italian and born on the outskirts of Florence.

Then you argued that your neighbor's Christmas display wasn't trying to convince anyone that Santa was present in Bethlehem -- yet in your first post you seemed disturbed that Italian painters of the quattrocento painted Biblical characters in the clothing styles of their own time. The painters were no more saying that Biblical characters dressed in styles from the Italian quattrocento than your neighbor was saying Santa Claus visited the stable to see Jesus as a newborn.

You also seemed to be asking if Mary knew that Jesus would die on the cross from the time He was born and why Jesus and Mary were depicted wearing crosses. Then you ignored what I told you about it being common to see artistic depictions of the Instruments of the Passion. I also wrote about everything in the life of Jesus being prefigured in the Old Testament, but you ignored that to focus on Simeon's statement rather than on the meaning behind his words.


It's been strange talking with you! :shrug:

[grumpy old fart]

16. He was an apocalyptic jew, IMHO, who thought he, or some other "son of God

was returning very shortly. He had no clue what was in the future. As a mere man, how could he?

Mark 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Mark 13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

Luke 21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Matthew 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Paul said essentially the same thing, therefore the lack of need for sex, etc....I mean, the end was near, better to get prepared than make whoopie....

[More Than A Feeling]

17. Looking to oneself for salvation would be the definition of idolatry, IMHO

Idolatry meaning "worshiping what is finite, limited, relative, and dependent, versus a God who is absolute." I can't imagine Jesus being a fan of idolatry. Unless perhaps Jesus believed in a God who did not say "I am the Lord thy God, thou shalt have no other Gods before me."

Disclaimer: The above is my opinion. Opinions are also finite, relative, limited, and dependent. I make no absolute claims that others are required to follow, or else I call them bad people. I welcome your argument if you think I am wrong.

[truthpusher]

18. What part of you is finite?

[More Than A Feeling]

19. The part that is going to be dumped into a grave someday.

and because the human being is a unified whole, when I die, everything goes; body, soul, and spirit. I don't believe that my soul is going to live on after death, not in the way pop culture has dipicted it.

[truthpusher]

20. I am not trying to be an antagonist but may I ask...

why do you think that you are a unified whole?

[More Than A Feeling]

21. Because everything is intertwined

body influences mind and vice versa. You can't take one part and isolate it from all others and say "this is me"

[Stevepol]

25. The members of Unity and Religious Science have the best take here

I think. Jesus was the man, Christ is the universal consciousness that is present in all of us. Christ so attuned himself to that principle through the things that he thought and experienced that he "became" it. He is "Jesus, who became the Christ." If understood that way, you can see how Jesus could say, "I am the way the truth and the light, no man comes to the Father but by me." That principle of the Christ is in all humans, a pattern imprinted there that waits to be activated and lived. It's in people of all religions or no religion and it has little to do with orthodox religion of any kind, except that many of the principles of religion can help lead people toward a realization of that Christ center, where we are one with ourselves and with God, where we know ourselves even as we are known.

Christ's mission changed during his life, becoming broader and more universal the longer her lived.

A lot of practices and doctrines in the various religions are actually not very helpful in leading people toward that universal awareness.

Incidentally, I thought the Unitarians believe in one God "at most."

[grumpy old fart]

27. How long was his ministry again? 3 years?

"Christ's mission changed during his life, becoming broader and more universal the longer her lived".

What was he doing for 30 years?

[Kire]

22. If you're right, then Jesus was an abby of Thelema.

"Thy will is the whole of the law."

[Donald Ian Rankin]

30. Obviously, it depends on how reliable a source you view the bible as,

But the character portrayed therein certainly wanted people to focus on him as their saviour.

"I am the way and the truth and the light, and no-one comes to my father except through me".

Whether that makes him a Christian or not I don't know. One question I would love to know the answer to, and never will, is whether Jesus saw himself as establishing a movement within Judaism or as leading people away from it.

[VADem11]

31. He was a jew

but christianity is based on the idea that Jesus thought that he WAS the messiah. Christianity is based on Jesus so he couldn't be a christian.

[supernova]

32. Um. Jesus was a orthodox Jew

He was born, lived and died a Jew.

[NAO]

33. Did He Accept Himself as His Personal Lord & Savior? Believe on Himself?

Kinda sounds like a new-age encounter group self-help thing to me.

[catbert836]

34. He was Jewish

And the way I see it, he meant his Messiah-ship for only the Jews. I am not aware of any passages describing him wanting to reach non-Jews.

[revree]

36. He was a Rabbinic Jew.