Myths about atheists and atheism that need to be dispelled...

[Cleobulus]

Now, frankly, I'll get into my own worldview here, so I only speak for myself, and things may vary between myself and other atheists, but I want to put some bullshit to rest, because I see some really nasty shit that it seems all atheists share, a prejudice that is frankly just wrong.

First things first, I'm an Atheist, a person who does not believe in any God, I'm an atheist because I see no evidence for God. Pretty simple, I know, but that's it.

That's it, that's pretty much what I am as an atheist. Beyond this Atheists vary, sometimes greatly, on other issues. But one thing to make clear, atheists are not missing some part of our humanity because we are Atheists.

Being an atheist, for myself, means that no religion guides me in my morality, no book, no dogma, no revealed knowledge that only I have access to. Instead, my code as it were, was and is acquired through my experiences on this planet, in this material universe, and through my interactions with people and the rest of the world. I use knowledge that I assimilate into my worldview to change it, I'm a humanist, and an environmentalist because of this knowledge.

Using knowledge in a rationalist approach, using science to help gain this knowledge is something that is important to me. I don't know what name to give my worldview, I just call it my own, and its something that helps fuel my awe and wonder at the universe.

The one thing I find interesting is that many theists seem to assume that atheists cannot appreciate certain things without believing in something beyond the material universe. This isn't true.

Let's give an example, I look at the sky and see a cloud shaped like a rabbit, its beautiful, I know that the rabbit, as it where, is a collection of water droplets, formed from well known principles of the wind, climate, and cloud formation. I also know that my mind is wired up to look for patterns in shapes of random material. I know all this, and yet, when I look at the cloud, I still see a rabbit, and its still beautiful.

The key is this, you don't need to think that some supernatural force is responsible for creating this rabbit in the clouds to appreciate its beauty. Same is true of sunsets, and most other natural phenomenon that we witness and call beautiful. Nothing is missing, the sense of awe and wonder can still exist, and does exist in a materialistic worldview.

This type of wonder turns, for me, into love, I absolutely love the world, and universe, its something that I view as important to my worldview. To give another example, back in school, I was learning about evolution, and, to the annoyance of my mother, I asked her a lot of questions about it. I needed clarification with her on how it worked, and so she took my cat, Dino, and much to his annoyance she pointed out the similarities between him an me, 2 eyes, 2 ears, 4 legs/limbs, etc. She then said that many years ago, his ancestors and mine were the same, and that they branched off, one becoming modern cats, the other becoming modern humans. She said to think of my cousins, who have a common ancestor, as it where, with me, through my grandparents. She said that all life on Earth are cousins to each other, humans not excepted.

This lead to a shift of worldview, in contrast with so many other people, I realize that I'm part of the natural world, not above it. We are all connected, not through any metaphysical or supernatural sense, but through our physical and genetic sense. Just like I'm not exactly like my cousins, nor is my cat, but we are all related.

This lead me to view the world with appreciation, it gave people so much, the Earth, through its resources, etc. The ecosystems that our cousins maintain through just surviving allow us to survive and thrive. We have to protect it, if not for them, then for ourselves. And for humanity itself, we should protect each other, because we are so closely related, within our species, we are practically siblings.

But again, what fueled my need to want to protect and take care of others? Again, something else that required no holy books or religion, its the natural drive of empathy, an instinct that I have, I can no more stop it than I can stop breathing. I don't need God to explain this instinct, its enough to be human. There is no denying of emotion here, but rather an embracing of them, a way to act on our knowledge to help each other, appreciate the natural world and human works, to be able to use our intellects to enrich and foster even greater creations, our extensions of the natural world. However, to do it responsibly, so that we do not diminish that we appreciate so much.

[JitterbugPerfume]

1. well said

[mzteris]

2. I find people who "do the right thing"

because it's "the right thing to do" - in other words - their innate desire to "do good", are infinitely preferable to those who "do the right thing" because they're either A) afraid of going to Hell; or B) want some "reward" in Heaven for "being good".

These people don't give a rats ass about other people, they're "do-gooders" only because they believe they HAVE to be for their own ends.

[Cleobulus]

6. I think most religionists act the way they do to "do the right thing"...

the difference is in acknowledgment, they simply don't think they are moral by themselves, they think its beyond them, when in reality it is not. They have to invoke a higher power, or a holy book to practically justify their good actions because they don't think they are good enough to have come up with it on their own.

[mzteris]

17. Maybe "some" religionists believe that way,

but I grew up "in the Church" - and I'm here to tell you, most of them don't really give a damn about anyone else.

edit word choice

[MineralMan]

3. As one atheist to another,

This is fine, but you've been posting a lot of stuff here lately that is pretty provocative to religionists. You're an atheist. OK. So am I. That pretty much says it all, I think. Whether you are moral or not has nothing to do with your atheism, but with your individual approach to things. Same for me. Same for most deity-believers I've met.

We're all individuals, and we all approach the world individually. Based on your threads lately, you don't seem to mind giving offence to people who do believe in some sort of deity or another.

I'm very glad you are a good person. Now, take that impulse and consider what you post here in terms of how others will see it. There's a good lad...

[Cleobulus]

7. Of course I post provactive things to religionists...

its to challenge them to think and to challenge their own self-contradictory beliefs. My problem with them stems from their faith and religion, regardless of what it is, exploiting human gullibility, another basic human trait, that creates an environment where people, who are normally good people, to do horrific things. Its no different than say, nationalism, or unquestioned political ideology, the difference is that we are more free to question those two, but not religion.

Even what we call more "benign" religions today end up being not so benign, think of Buddhist extremists in Sri Lanka, or Hindu nationalists in India(and Sri Lanka), or people who shoot abortion doctors here in the United States, or beat up and kill gay people the world over. Or Muslim extremists who fly planes into buildings, honor killings, etc. It is not because these people are psychopaths that they commit these atrocities.

Hell, you could say that they are the opposite of psychopaths, in that they commit their atrocities in the name of religion, but also because they think its good for their community, nation, religion, etc. Psychopaths, in general, are people who lack empathy, who lack connecting with other people emotionally. They also generally commit crimes for their own personal benefit, not for the benefit of others.

Religion, in all its forms, can be extremely dangerous, you don't even have to be extremist or fundamentalist to become a dangerous individual when a member of a religion. It helps in creating an other, and in corrupting the brighter side of humanity, our empathy, love, and loyalty to cause some of the worst examples of human behavior imaginable.

Now, as I said, its not unique to religion, any unquestioning ideology will do, however, most of those ideologies are much more open to criticism than religion. Another difference is the religion in question may reward you in the afterlife when you commit an atrocity, this means that yes, even some psychopaths are attracted to this path, but they wouldn't necessarily constitute the majority.

Bad people will do bad things, good people will do good things, but to have good people do bad things, that takes some type of unquestioned ideology, and religion is at top of that list.

[MineralMan]

8. Provactive, eh? Is that your job? Are you on an evangelical mission?

What's it to you what others believe, as long as they don't do bad things?

I think you may have meant "provocative," but I'm just guessing.

[Cleobulus]

9. Dammit, for some reason spellcheck doesn't work in subject lines.

By default, always have to activate it manually, damn typos.

Generally speaking, I don't care what people believe about the fantasy world they live in. Its when it affects the real world that I get, shall we say, concerned. Particularly in their beliefs about other people, etc. These beliefs are dangerous, and counterproductive in trying to make the world a better place.

[MineralMan]

10. Yes, well...some religionists think that way. And some atheists

think that all religionists are stupid. Either way, both are wrong.

You're really not getting my point here, are you?

[Cleobulus]

11. Yes, but do you get mine about how dangerous it is for people to surrender their morality...

to authority figures, whether God, a church, or a particular religious leader?

[nannah]

18. +1000

it is the anti science aspect of religion that is most distressing to me because it prevents important steps from being taken to manage global issues, yielding death and destruction to many. Belief in an unseen, magical, all powerful being alters people's problem solving abilities because it alters people's sense of possibility and mutes their ability to comprehend reality.

[elocs]

19. Nicely said. As bad as religionists may be, too many atheists have a huge chip on their shoulders.

They are at the ready and waiting to be offended by anything remotely religious. It's like they snarl and say, "I dare you to say "god". Just try it and see what I say!!!"

I am at best a deist, maybe more agnostic. As bad as some Christians may be, the evangelicals, the fundamentalists, there are atheists here at DU who go out of their way to be as offensive and spew such vitriolic criticism toward Christianity as they can ignoring the fact that there are undoubtedly thousands of believers here at DU who are fine people whose faith is important to them. They are nothing like the despised rightwing fundamentalists and evangelicals and are likely to be those Christians who live their faith, helping the poor and feeding the hungry.

If DU is a place of refuge for Democrats, I am sure there are religious DUers who look upon this Religion/Theology forum as a place of refuge and not one where they would be under constant attack from some atheists here whose primary goal in life appears to be offended by anything religious at every turn. I don't see religionists here at DU as in your face to atheists as the atheists are to them. That says a lot about both groups.

[Cleobulus]

20. Turn that around, why don't you?

It seems to be the complete opposite to me, even when Atheists go OUT OF THEIR WAY to be non-offensive towards Christian's beliefs, there are Christians who act as if the Atheists attacked the virtue of the Christian's mother. Also, I notice a distinct difference between how Christians and Atheists on this board behave in regards to each other.

See, Christians make assumptions about the behaviors of Atheists because of their lack of belief, even going so far as to lie, create strawmen, and disparage atheists. Character assassination, in other words, and personal attacks. Hence the reason I thought to start this thread in the first place.

Atheists at least try to keep things less personal, generally attacking what we see to be ridiculous beliefs. I don't see a whole lot of atheists on this board who's damn near every post is an attempt to link Christians with Hitler. Yet you see that with Christians here on this board.

Just wait a little longer and their will be Christians with a chip on their shoulder attacking me for attacking their beliefs or God. Its inevitable.

[PassingFair]

22. Who made you the forum Dad?

Now, take your condescending manner of yours and post here in terms
of how others see it.....there's a good lad.

[uberllama42]

24. I know, right?

Happy Goddam Father's Day.

[Deep13]

26. I don't see anything insulting or even provocative in the OP.

What am I not seeing?

[lyonn]

4. That was beautiful, thanks

While reading your post my tv Music Choice was on and the song Way Down Yonder in New Orleans, by Freddie Cannon came on. It seemed to emphasize the dreadful situation in N.O.. Those creatures being destroyed in the waters there. Years ago while raising our family we spend many vacations in Fla. and always stopped in N.O. and loved the whole atmosphere there, unique, like so many places on this planet. Last time we went to Fla. was early 2000ish with grandkids and was so sad to not see the swamp areas with the moss hanging from the trees. Still don't understand what happened. N.O. was still special and kids enjoyed it. Enough babble. Thanks again, I so get it.

[Scuba]

5. You mean I'm not a devil-worshipper?

I've been accused of that upon someone learning of my being an atheist.

I agree that the moral compass comes from within. I like the phrase "moral compass" because it connotes "moral compassion".

I've seen incredible hatred, sin, ill will toward man (and particularly woman) come from organized religion.

I'm respectful of others religious beliefs, but tend to measure their words against their deeds. Seems a fundamental concept of the worlds religions is how you treat the less forturnate among you. Based on my observations, lots of religious people do well in that regard, while others use religion as an excuse to create more misery.

The hypocracy is telling.

[DeSwiss]

12. K&R n/t

[madmom]

13. I wish my MIL had a computer so I could send her this. She sees me as

a corrupter (her son) and it's my fault she has no money(she has to give the church more because we are so bad) Yup a true christian she is! :puke:

[customerserviceguy]

15. You'll never convince her of anything

Her mind is closed, and just because yours is open, you think she'd like it better if hers were, too. She clings to her religion like Linus hangs on to his security blanket in the Peanuts cartoon.

[customerserviceguy]

14. I guess I don't spend a lot of time worrying about dispelling myths

Unlike religionists, I don't need other people to think like me in order to feel good about myself. If my example of how I live my life without their dusty books and invisible skyfathers is not convincing enough, nothing I say will do it either.

[starroute]

16. Why does this keep having to be said?

We've all got a sense of wonder. We've all got a sense of beauty. We've all got a sense of morality.

These things are built into us -- and since they're plainly of evolutionary value, they imply that the universe itself is wondrous, beautiful, and profoundly moral.

But religions, instead of being able to leave it at that, feel some sort of need to explain everything in terms that would make sense to a four-year-old.

The best parts of religion are those that deal most directly with the challenge of being alive in that kind of universe and use "god" only as a convenient metaphor.

But unfortunately, most people who call themselves "believers" are actually obesssives, hung up on defining a "god" who is no more than a compilation of their own quirks and twitches.

I'm not so much an atheist myself as someone thinks that getting this whole god-obsession out of the way would do a great deal to enable us to get on with the actual challenge of being human.

[Cleobulus]

21. Because apparently atheists have a chip on their shoulder.

:eyes:

[Odin2005]

23. I really hate the argument that materialist metaphysics takes the "wonder" out of existance.

It's total BS. The cosmos as it actually exists is far more wonderful then any stupid superstition. Religion is an anthropocentric contraction of one's mind and heart away from reality.

[laconicsax]

25. +1

To understand something adds another level of wonder.

To know that within each somatic cell in the body exists a complete copy of the individual's genome is awe-inspiring.
Understanding the enormity of our solar system s awe-inspiring.
The realization that our solar system is practically infinitesimal when compared to the size of the universe is humbling.
That there are 60 orders of magnitude between Planck length and the size of the universe is pretty much incomprehensible--if that takes the "wonder" away, I'd like to know what doesn't.

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/525347">This interactive scale posted a while back in the science forum helps gain some appreciation of the size of the universe, but understanding it--really understanding it is another issue altogether.