Stephen Hawking says universe not created by God

[swag]

Source: The Guardian

God did not create the universe, the man who is arguably Britain's most famous living scientist says in a forthcoming book.

In the new work, The Grand Design, Professor Stephen Hawking argues that the Big Bang, rather than occurring following the intervention of a divine being, was inevitable due to the law of gravity.

In his 1988 book, A Brief History of Time, Hawking had seemed to accept the role of God in the creation of the universe. But in the new text, co-written with American physicist Leonard Mlodinow, he said new theories showed a creator is "not necessary".

The Grand Design, an extract of which appears in the Times today, sets out to contest Sir Isaac Newton's belief that the universe must have been designed by God as it could not have been created out of chaos.


Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2010/sep/02/stephen-hawking-big-bang-creator?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

[Lucian]

1. K & R

Thank you Stephen for being the voice of reason.

[jobycom]

2. How is this Late Breaking News? It's 4.7 billion years old!!!

Couldn't resist.

[Amonester]

8. Could well be 'infinitely' older than that.

In fact, it would have no age at all (always existed as always will).

Maybe the sound-bite 'dyonisos' was for other stuff.

[TreasonousBastard]

20. It'as also at least the third post on it.

[Cronus Protagonist]

3. Do we need this thread done newly every day?

*yawn*

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

6. I'm glad this thread exists, because I missed all previous ones.

Which were in other forums, I see, so it doesn't count as dupes.

[Cronus Protagonist]

7. lol

I will remember this intel for later use... New Rule: threads on same topic under different forums are not duplicates.

[The_Casual_Observer]

4. How different the world would be if there was no belief in heaven or hell.

[bowens43]

this is news?

who didn't already know that the universe was not poofed into existence?

[cleanhippie]

39. Apparently there are quite a few.....

Hopefully, one day, reason will prevail.

[GodlessBiker]

5. But where did gravity come from? Not that some god put it there, but it's a valid question.

Why there is something, including the laws of physics, rather than nothing is one of the deepest questions around.

[superconnected]

9. Agreed. I noticed that too.

Of course I see holes in everything the guy says.

[K8-EEE]

10. But where did God come from?

According to the "creationist" mindset somebody has to make everything so who made God? And if God is all good -- who made the Devil?

[superconnected]

14. I have no idea and if you read the article he didn't even say there was no God, so I think it's an

empty issue here. Actually I'm surprised he believes/believed in God in the first place.

Why don't you try not getting hung up on the God issue, and focus on the crap he's saying - ie your questioning actually is ours for where gravity comes from. I don't think he offered a good scientific explanation (he said it just exists) and I don't think God should be factored in as a possible answer.

[PfcHammer]

15. Who made who, who made you?

Who made who, ain't nobody told you?
Who made who, who made you?
If you made them and they made you
Who Begot The Devil, and who made who?
Who made who, who turned the screw?

Who made who, who turned the screw?

Satellite send me picture
Get it in the eye,
take it to the world
spinning like a dynamo
Feel it going round and round
Running out of chips, you got no
line in an 8-bit town
So don't look down, no

Who made who, who made you?
Who made who, ain't nobody told you?
Who made who, who made you?
If you made them and they made you
Who Begot The Devil, and who made who?
Who made who, who turned the screw?

Ain't nobody told you, who made who?

Who made who, who made you?
Who made who, ain't nobody told you?
Who made who, who made you?
If you made them and they made you
Who Begot The Devil, and who made who?
Who made who, who turned the screw?

:rofl:

[LiberalFighter]

32. Why are there angels and Jesus if god is all powerful?

God can't do it all?

Who did make the devil? God? If god did then he made a mistake. If god didn't make the devil then who did?

[Teaser]

22. "Where did gravity come from"

is not a valid question, not in the sense Hawking is talking about it. He's talking about theories that explain the origin of gravity in terms of pre-causal theoretical objects. Pre-causal in that causality, as we understand it, emerges from the theory. So asking where did "X" come from has to stop at this point, because the idea of "come from" is tied to causality.

And, in any event, "Why is there something, rather than nothing" is problematic. It assumes that "nothing" can "be". But nothing is non-existence. As such, how can there ever "be" "nothing", as that would be equivalent to saying that "Nonexistence exists."

[RaleighNCDUer]

24. Why there is something rather than nothing is because if there were

nothing we wouldn't be having this conversation. It is, because it is.

Personally, I don't believe in the Big Bang. I think it was more a Big Bounce. If the universe is infinite it is not so in boundaries but in cycles. It expands to a point where it cannot expand any further, then collapses on itself, down to a near-infinitely dense point, at which time it expolodes again and starts the multi-billion year cycle all over.

One day there will be a mathematical model for that, I think.

[The Stranger]

30. Why is it not infinite in boundaries?

That is, how can it be infinite in time, but not infinite in space?

If what you say is true, then you are left with Nietzsche's theory of eternal recurrence.

I find eternal recurrence to be profoundly powerful, except it assumes that there are limits to space, but not time.

[The Stranger]

31. And one more thing.

Even if we wouldn't be having this conversation if there were nothing, the question is still valid. The question isn't whether "we" exist, it is "why does anything exist?"

So the question, "why is there something rather than nothing?", still abides.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

11. Thanks for posting this. Adding to Wish List. -nt

[damntexdem]

12. OK, who done it?

Better get Adrien Monk on the case -- he's retired from TV, so should be available.

;-)

[K8-EEE]

13. I guess he will be another of my interesting neighbors in hell!

Some of the most interesting and intelligent people who ever lived will be down there with me -- eternally punished for not believing Bible stories. How can anybody really believe such a thing exists as post-death punishment simply for your sincere beliefs!

[fl_dem]

16. we will be in good company!! n/t

[ozone_man]

27. "Go to Heaven for the climate, Hell for the company."

- Mark Twain.

He'll be there for sure.

[kcks]

17. I believe

in the BID BANG theory GOD said BANG and it happened.

[Hissyspit]

18. Probably not.

[cleanhippie]

40. Well, isn't that special.

We are very happy for you.

[flakey_foont]

19. yea! Stephen

make sense to me

[elocs]

21. This was posted here twice this morning, so how did it become LBN at 2:13 p.m.?

:shrug:

Does anyone ever check to see if something has already been posted?

[swag]

25. Why don't you alert on it, shruggie?

[elocs]

28. I did. Look where it is now. n/t

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

44. It stayed on LBN enough to guarantee at least one more sale for Mr. Hawking. So it's OK.

[Vehl]

23. K & R

one of the best minds of our time! may he live on for decades to come!

[Mr. Sparkle]

26. And who created the big bangs raw material ?

Professor Hawking is right in that everything that happened since the big bang, it is just a natural consequence of the nature of our universe. I dont think we will ever know who or what made the big bang, so to speak. I think its ok to say God created the universe.

But, what i want to know is, who created God?

[Teaser]

29. why does the big bang need raw material?

.

[Mr. Sparkle]

33. It was made of the material that now fills our universe. That is the explanation behind the big bang

You cant create something from nothing, it had to have come from somewhere.

[Teaser]

34. "You can't create something from nothing"

Sure you can. It happens all the time in vacuum physics.

Usually, however, the something created from nothing just doesn't last long enough for any tool we have to measure it.

[Jim__]

38. Particle creation within a vacuum is not creating something from nothing.

Virtual particle creation is based on the energy that exists within empty space. The creation of virtual particles is based on the prior existence of both space and energy.

[Teaser]

41. "Based on"

does not have a sufficiently rigorous meaning to make debating your statement possible. Depending on what you mean, I could either agree entirely and say that it supports fully what I had posted or disagree vehemently.

[Jim__]

42. Yes, my answer was "based on": It happens all the time in vacuum physics.

My answer contained as much rigour as that quote called for. But, to be clear, particle creations that "happen all the time" in vacuums are dependent upon the prior existence of space and energy.

[Teaser]

43. being a working physicist, I am quite aware of that.

But a vacuum is the only nothing I can point to. So when I see particles created from a vacuum, I see particles created from nothing.

If you could point to another, different nothing that is not a vacuum and show me that nothing is created from it, that would be awesome.

[Jim__]

45. The problem is that the vacuum is not nothing.

I'll be interested to see if Hawking actually claims that the universe was created from nothing and if he does say that, how he says it happened.

[Teaser]

46. But "true nothing" doesn't exist

by definition. If it has any attributes at all, it isn't nothing.

Furthermore, historically, the vacuum has been defined as "nothing". That modern science has redefined the vacuum isn't exactly playing fair.

The problem is, when people talk about creation ex nihilo, they are talking nonsense. True "nihil" doesn't mean anything that humans can even conceptualize, much less encounter.

[Jim__]

47. You knew what "nothing" meant in post #33.

You chose to equivocate on the word "nothing" by claiming that something is created from nothing in vacuum physics all the time. For you to now claim that reliance on the meaning of "nothing" in post #33 is unfair and that somehow we should be relying on the equivocation in post #34 is ridiculous. When people ask how something is created from nothing, they are not asking how something is created from only space and energy. If you wanted to challenge the claim about creating something from nothing, you should have challenged that and not equivocated on the word "nothing". And the real question, of course, is about how anything comes into existence, and is indeed concerned with existence versus non-existence. And, yes, no one has actually addressed that problem, I'm betting including Hawking in his new book.

[Teaser]

48. wow...getting all hype and whatnot.

I stand by everything I've said thus far. The only nothing I know is the vacuum. Anything else is just words.

"the real question, of course, is about how anything comes into existence"

What does it even mean, to "come into existence"? It presupposes a state, other than existence, from which "anything" progresses into another state, in this case *called existence*. So we're conceptualizing "nothing" then, as a state from which pre-existing entities move into "something", another state? That does not sound very much like nothing. In fact it sounds nothing like it at all.

The real question to be answered is why people believe there can *be* a state that is the negation of being itself.

[ozone_man]

35. Why is it OK to say God created the universe?

If we don't know, just say that. There is so much in the universe that we don't know yet. So many mysteries. But, we don't need to make up creation myths to explain them. 2,000 years ago or more, sure, but now we have the scientific method. Maybe stuff can be created from nothing, but God probably had no hand in it.

[alfredo]

36. Oh shucks, I was hoping to see her.

[Lagomorph]

37. Actually, he created the Asylum for Unstable Biological Entities

The Universe is a pretty cool place, if they ever let us out of here.