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Christian DUers, do you believe in the Ten Commandments?

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:25 AM
Original message
Poll question: Christian DUers, do you believe in the Ten Commandments?
Edited on Sun Apr-03-11 09:44 AM by originalpckelly
:shrug:

***I place this here to get the largest sample size possible.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
1. What does "believe in" mean?
I believe that they exist. I believe that some of them are common rules held by most societies. I believe that others are pure religious bunkum. I believe a lot of things about the 10 Commandments. Does that mean I "believe in" them?

Just in case I wasn't clear, I think the expression "believe in" is meaningless.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. Personally, what is the meaning of in?
Do you mean that the Commandments are in you? Or do you mean that you are in the Commandments?

Or am I talking about inches?

Or did I mean to send something to Believe, Indiana (IN)?

I just don't know.
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ZombieHorde Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
46. Some words are extremely scrutinized here in R/T because of previous arguments.
Edited on Sun Apr-03-11 05:34 PM by ZombieHorde
Belief, religion, Christian, atheism, and agnosticism are the main words scrutinized here. So don't be surprised if the use of these five words are questioned.

This is similar to DU's use of the words, "war" and "humanitarian mission," when describing US's actions in Libya. I know it can be annoying, but knowing how people define certain words can be important.

edit to add recent example: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x274769
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ReggieVeggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. I think believe in means following like it's an edict from a higher power
those that claim to believe in the bible must accept it as the written truth, the word of god, or it is meaningless
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #1
20. Well said. I don't "believe" in anything related to my faith--I just have faith--which means
I have doubt and a questioning mind as well.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Oh my:
From Princeton WordNet:
faith--
religion: a strong belief in a supernatural power or powers that control human destiny; "he lost his faith but not his morality"
complete confidence in a person or plan etc; "he cherished the faith of a good woman"; "the doctor-patient relationship is based on trust"
religion: an institution to express belief in a divine power; "he was raised in the Baptist religion"; "a member of his own faith contradicted him"
loyalty or allegiance to a cause or a person; "keep the faith"; "they broke faith with their investors"

How can you have a "belief" you don't "believe" in?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 11:27 AM
Response to Reply #22
30. Where did I mention religion?
Edited on Sun Apr-03-11 11:33 AM by blondeatlast
Editied back to my original response.
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ReggieVeggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #20
33. so you have faith in faith
that's cool

Is it a Christian-tinged faith or Muslim-tinged? Or just kinda faith-tinged?
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
42. Why does that matter? nt
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ReggieVeggie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
48. do you believe in god?
or just the idea of god?
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sailor65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
2. Based on your history,
The poll pretty much looks like flamebait.....
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. It's a simple question.
Why can't it just be answered?
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Sal316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
3. Believe in?
You mean like:

a) A list of rules to be followed?
or
b) as a description of what a life that imitates Christ (Eph 5), looks like?

I believe that the 10 Commandments are more like a mirror of what a Christian life looks like than a list of rules to be followed.

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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. But you would hold them to be articles of faith that are Christian...
Edited on Sun Apr-03-11 09:41 AM by originalpckelly
in nature right?

That they are a part of your faith, right?

That's the meaning of the question. Are they a part of the Christian faith? That's the meaning of the question. :hi:
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Actually, it is not just Christians who are asked to follow
the 10 Commandments. They have a long history that predates the Christ fable.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. I am asking Christians.
No other group, they may predate it, but that's another matter.
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Sal316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:51 AM
Original message
Articles of faith? No.
I have never run across listing the 10 Commandments (which version are you talking about?) in any statement of belief, or creed, declaring them to be an article of faith.

Secondly, the 10 Commandments, particularly, are Jewish in nature, being in the OT, and, expanding out, are pretty much globally repeated with cultural variations around the world.

Are they part of my faith? Yes. Like I said, to me they're more of what the reflection of one's life should be than a list of rules to be followed.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
19. Oi vey.
Edited on Sun Apr-03-11 10:01 AM by originalpckelly
In one place you say they're not articles of faith, and in another you say they're a part of your faith.

Can you understand why I'm having trouble understanding what you mean?
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Sal316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. Perhaps I can explain it better this way...
....all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares.

Just because it is part of one's belief system doesn't make it an Article of Faith.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. It would seem to be.
Edited on Sun Apr-03-11 10:20 AM by originalpckelly
It's almost one, it's a simple passage (well not really if you look it up, but it has been simplified) that most people are expected to know, right?

It's a forced type of thing in many Christian education schools. I guarantee you that many Sunday schools force children to recite from memory the Ten Commandments. That would be a type of article of faith, because it's a hard line declaration of belief.

It's really not long enough to be a contemplative position on the issues, it's just a set of instructions/declarations.
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Sal316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #25
38. Ok, one more time.
You've asked if they are an article of faith, to which I've replied no, they are not. Not everything that is part of one's faith is an article of faith. Yet, you still insist that they "seem" to be despite the fact they're not.

Just like all squares are rectangles, not all rectangles are squares.

It's not unreasonable to expect that children in Christian schools should know the Ten Commandments. I grew up Catholic, and learned that, plus all the Catholic prayers (Our Father, Hail Mary, Glory Be, Apostle's Creed), the Rosary, etc.

Yet, not all of those were articles of faith. In fact, even the Catholic Church's Catechism states that "not all revealed truth is an article of faith".

The 10 Commandments are often discussed in Catechism (ie. Luther's Small Catechism 1529AD), but are not referenced in any creed (i.e. Apostle's, Nicene, Athanasian) which detail the Articles of Faith for that tradition.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #38
62. You know Sal, on re-reading,
you'd have done a whole lot better in getting your point across if you had simply explained that "article of faith" means something very different to laypeople than it does to theologians. OriginalPCKelly has been treating the phrase "article of faith" as if it simply means an item that is incorporated into your religion. He (or she) didn't understand that you define "article of faith" as something intrinsic to your belief which you must have faith in, like the concept of The Trinity.

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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #7
21. If that's what the poll is asking--you forgot to ask it. nt
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Kurmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. I believe they were handed down directly to Moses, as it says.
I take the expression "believe in" to mean if I believe they are true, yes I do.
However, I don't look at them as an "edict" as near so much as good advice.
You look at the problems in society whenever someone bears false witness, steals, murders, etc, etc, any time someone actively breaks one of those laws it causes many problems, sometimes for many different people at a time.
Belittle them or try to dismiss them if you wish, but they are just good ideas for a society's survival.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. Most of the Ten Commandments have more to do with
the preservation of the religion than with actual social behavior. That's why you won't find but three or four that are reflected in laws outside the religion.

For that reason, they are essentially superfluous and unnecessary. What culture doesn't prohibit murder, theft, adultery, honoring one's parents, and giving false testimony? All of the behavioral commandments are a commonplace in every culture. The rest are solely religious in nature, and have nothing to do with anyone outside of that religion.

We have laws, for example, against murder, theft, and giving false testimony. We no longer consider adultery illegal, and there are no laws requiring filial obedience after adulthood. The rest of the commandments are actually prohibited in our Constitution.
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Kurmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #14
43. That's your presumption.
BTW, the Commandment says to Honor your parents, filial obedience is a whole other issue. You can disagree with your parents respectfully.
Adultery may not be illegal, but to assume that it has no consequences is naive.
Your statement that half the Commandments are prohibited by The Constitution is ludicrous.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. Actually, have a look at the Commandments.
Count the ones that insist that the particular religion of that deity is the only one, and that express demands for that religion. Do it, then get back to me.

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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #3
40. Sal, perhaps you meant to say...
"I believe that the 10 Commandments are more like a mirror of what a Christian life SHOULD look like than a list of rules to be followed."


Based on observations of many christians, the 10 commandments does not accurately reflect the christian life, IMO.
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ananda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
9. I like the altruism inherent in the golden rule or the categorical imperative...
... much better.
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
11. The real question is: Do you keep them?
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
13. I follow the two great commandments given by Christ in Matthew..
as Christ said, all others will fall in line..

“Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might.”

(If you follow this, you will not only keep true to your faith but you will not make follow money, drugs, power whatever make anything a God that keeps you from losing yourself. People make gods out of many things.)

"You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

(If you love your neighbor as yourself, you will not do something to hurt them, from great crimes like stealing, killing to even the small hurts like littering, or pushing in line, calling someone a name.anything that distresses your neighbor)

You keep the 2 great commandments you automatically keep the 10 of the Old Testament
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. I'll settle for just the second one, which is a common one
in many cultures, and just plain common social sense. The first one is limited to a single deity, one worshiped by less than a third of the population of the planet. It's irrelevant.
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. Ahh we posted at the same time.. I posted the history of the Great Commandment below yours
:hi:
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. GMTA, I suppose.
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immoderate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #13
36. Dalton in "Road House" put it as, "Always be nice!" -- There are many prophets.
I believe in Road House.


--imm
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Peacetrain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
16. The Cliff Notes Version of Commandments and Biblical evolution
God gave one commandment.. do not eat of the fruit of the tree of life.

Hmmmm, too easy, that one had to go down fast

Lets try this again, Human beings are allover the place with in belief systems

God gives Moses the 10 commandments.. (and those commandments are given to more than just Christians like the the Great commandment..)

Hmmmmm humans being humans morph the 10 to over 600, so many no one can keep them all so why even try

God tries to simplify this again

The two great Commandments are given to Christ and the rest of the humanity. The history of the Great Commandments

All things that you would want done for you, Do for others.. Matt. 7:12
Christianity

What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowman...Talmud: Shabbat 31a
Judaism

Hurt not others in ways that you would not find hurtful Udana-Varga 5,18
Buddhism

This is sum of duty, Do naught unto others, which would cause you pain if done to you.. Mahaebharata 5,1517
Brahmanism

Surely it is the maxim of loving kindness: Do not unto others that you would not have them do unto you
Analects 15,23
Confucianism

Regard your neighbors gains as your own gains and your neighbors loss as your own T'ai Shang Kan Yingp P'ien
Taoism

That nature alone is good which refrains from doing unto another whatsoever is not good for itself
Dadistan-I-Dinik 94,5
Zoroastrianism

No one os your is a believer until he desires for his brother which he desires for himself. Sumnah
Islam


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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:10 AM
Response to Original message
23. Glad you asked
If you want to live a peaceful life, follow the ten commandants and success is yours.

You want to be a screwup and cause havoc? Break as many as you can.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
45. Overly simplistic to a fault.
Not to mention a great way to say that atheists and non-Abrahamic religious followers have less chance at success just because they don't believe in "the Lord thy God."
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Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
26. I believe more in the Sermon on the Mount - Never, ever cited by the reich wing Christians
They are too busy citing an obscure passage from the Old Testament condemning homosexuals to read and live by this:

Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Blessed are they who mourn,
for they shall be comforted.

Blessed are the meek,
for they shall inherit the earth.

Blessed are they who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they shall be satisfied.

Blessed are the merciful,
for they shall obtain mercy.

Blessed are the pure of heart,
for they shall see God.

Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they shall be called children of God.

Blessed are they who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

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EC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
27. It's obvious to me that the 10 Commandments
Edited on Sun Apr-03-11 10:48 AM by EC
were written by man - not a God. I believe Moses was having trouble keeping the people in line and needed to institute some laws to manage the chaos. So he went into the hills and came back with a tablet he fashioned with new laws to make the people obey. In order to create some gravitas he used God as the enforcer...That's only the way I see it.


I believe in knowing right from wrong - having a conscience...
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Historic NY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
28. Hammurabi's Code needed 282 laws.....the 10 were a start.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #28
51. Which were first? Hammurabi Code or 10 commandments?
Aren't there more than just the 10 commandments in the bible? In the same section?
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #51
54. First ever in history.
The 10 commandments, like most of the bible, is an adaptation form OTHER, earlier religions, codes and creeds.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/CODE.HTM
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. I know.. I wish this was out more. It would have a better effect of discrediting the Bible.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 04:26 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. True, but the bible does plenty to discredit itself already.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. Only if people read it, study it, and comprehend it.
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BobbyBoring Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
29. I don't believe
that they were given to what's his name by god, but I think most of them pretty good guide lines on how to live. You shouldn't steal, kill, or bang your neighbors wife unless she's really hot and you can't help yourself.
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originalpckelly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #29
34. "bang your neighbors wife unless she's really hot and you can't help yourself."
:rofl:
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #29
52. But then it's the neighbor's fault for having a hot wife.
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Obamanaut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
31. The ten commandments exist. I believe they exist. nt
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blondeatlast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 11:35 AM
Response to Original message
32. Yes, I believe they exist. I have faith that you have something more on your mind, though.
Edited on Sun Apr-03-11 11:35 AM by blondeatlast
My faith is based on personal experience...
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
35. Wow! Freaking Brilliant!
We got people dying in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places. We have fucked-up health care in this country. Our education is going to hell in a handbasket.

And you're wondering about people's beliefs?
10 commandments? Don't like 'em -- don't follow 'em.

Simple.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 04:37 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. And you're wasting your time posting on this thread. n/t
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timtom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #44
49. Oh, brother!
How quaint.
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Goblinmonger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #49
50. So you can bitch about what other people are doing
but it doesn't apply to you? I thought Dems were supposed to be 100% focused on the issues you listed?

Don't you think it might just be OK for one to think about some questions of theology as we go through our lives? That such considerations may actually make us a more well rounded person and better suited for dealing with the political issues of our time?
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Hey, you wait just a second. Pointing our hypocrisy is very unbecoming.
You know that.
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
37. Other: You forgot "I pick and choose which ones I like".
Edited on Sun Apr-03-11 12:08 PM by undeterred
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RebelOne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 12:09 PM
Response to Original message
39. I am not a Christian. I am an atheist.
But I believe the 10 Commandments are a good moral code to follow. Just as I believe in "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-03-11 12:18 PM
Response to Reply #39
41. ALL 10 are a "good moral code"?
The first 4 are nonsense, the 5th, depends on if your mother and father are WORTHY of honor, and the rest, maybe.
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hartandsoul Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 01:11 PM
Response to Original message
55. I believe God gave them to Moses on Mt. Sinai
And I believe they are good rules to live by. But I also believe we are no longer under the law but under grace. The law only shows us how imperfect we are and why we need grace for salvation.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 01:48 PM
Response to Original message
56. I think there is some real moral genius in them: for example,
Q: Hey! Shouldn't you be working today?
A: Nope: it's against my religion!

:D

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laconicsax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Apr-08-11 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
59. You should clarify which ten.
There's the first ten in Exodus 20, then a completely different set in Exodus 34 that's "identical" to the first set, then a third set that's similar to the first in Deuteronomy 4, then the still different set of less than ten that Jesus listed in Mark 10 and Luke 18.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-19-11 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #59
65. Deuteronomy was written and "discovered" after the return from the
Babylonian exile to revitalize Jewish traditions. (I learned this in a course for Episcopal laypeople, along with the parallels of the Genesis creation story to other Middle Eastern creation stories and the similarities of the Noah story to the flood story in the Epic of Gilgamesh.)
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backscatter712 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 12:53 PM
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61. I like George Carlin's simplification of the Ten Commandments.
He gives you the Two Commandments:

1. Thou shalt be honest and faithful to the provider of thy nookie.

2. Thou shalt try real hard not to kill anyone, unless, of course, they pray to a different invisible man from the one you pray to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzEs2nj7iZM
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-09-11 03:10 PM
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63. Deleted message
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MikeH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-18-11 08:26 PM
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64. I am an ex-Christian, and I very strongly feel that at least one of the “Ten Commandments” is wrong.
Not being a Christian any more, I do not consider myself to be under any obligation to submit to the supposed absolute authority of the Bible. The Bible was written by fallible human beings, and I think it exhibits human fallibility and human prejudice just like anything else that has ever been written.


About the commandment to “honor your father and mother”

One of the things in the Bible that I think is wrong is the commandment which says to “honor your father and mother.” I think it is very unfortunate that this particular commandment is one of the “Ten Commandments” that have come to be attributed to God, and that have come to lie in the center of traditional Judeo-Christian and Western morality.

I will first agree that it is very right and salutary to honor one’s parents – IF they are and have been good parents, and if they have treated one well and have been respectful and sensitive to one’s needs. (And the same would be true of other positive influences or role models in one’s life, such as for instance good teachers.)

However the commandment, in the biblical text, is unconditional, and makes no exceptions if one’s parents are or were abusive parents or otherwise bad parents.

I think it is very wrong to say to any person who has or has had an abusive parent or parents, that that person has any kind of duty or obligation to honor such parents.

If anything there should be a commandment for parents to treat their children with dignity and respect, that the children might come to treat themselves and others with dignity and respect.

And if there is anything that might be considered true wisdom worthy of being regarded as wisdom from God, it is the poem http://www.katsandogz.com/onchildren.html">On Children by Kahlil Gibran.

I would think that it is a much greater crime or sin to abuse or mistreat a child than it is to talk back to or otherwise dishonor or disrespect one’s parents.

In fact I would say that the commandment to “honor your father and mother”, in actual practice, really benefits and has benefited bad parents and not good parents, and certainly not children of bad or abusive parents. The commandment enables bad parents to claim legitimacy no matter what they do; they can always say that God says to always honor your parents.

While not a parent myself, I would think that any good or competent parent, or any parent with any self-respect, does not need the backing of a commandment from God.

If anything, it is bad parents, or http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553284347/drirensgetwithth">toxic parents, who need to invoke an alleged commandment from God when they are displeased with something their child says or does, or who would say or imply that an affront to one’s parents is an affront to God. A good parent would seriously consider the possibility that he/she might be wrong, and that it might be the problem of the parent if he/she is displeased or offended by something the child says or does, and would absolutely not ever want to say or imply that God is in league with or always on the side of parents. And a good parent would be very conscious of the need to EARN the right and privilege to be honored, and would not demand or insist on being honored unconditionally.


Alice Miller and her work

The recently deceased Swiss writer and psychotherapist, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Miller_%28psychologist%29">Alice Miller, in her http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php">books and on her http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php">web http://www.naturalchild.org/alice_miller/">sites, has documented some of the consequences of exonerating or “forgiving” abusive parents, or absolving them of any blame, in the name of the commandment to “honor your father and mother”. Among these are passing the abuse one has received from one’s parents to one’s own children, or to innocent scapegoats, such as to Jews in Hitler’s Germany, or to gay people, for example, here in America.

One thing that should be very obvious if one thinks about it is that if one is taught from earliest childhood to be mortally afraid of challenging, questioning, or displeasing or offending one’s parents (under threat of punishment, physical or otherwise, and always reminded of the commandment to “honor your father and mother”), then one will later not challenge political, religious, or other authorities. Alice Miller, particularly in her book http://www.nospank.net/fyog.htm">For Your Own Good documents that this is the case both with leading figures in the Nazi regime and with ordinary Germans who went along with Hitler. A very striking example is that of the Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Höss, as http://www.nospank.net/fyog9.htm#values">documented by Alice Miller (scroll down):

The strong emphasis on obedience in Rudolf Höss's early upbringing left its indelible mark on him, too. Certainly his father did not intend to raise him to be a commandant at Auschwitz; on the contrary, as a strict Catholic, he had a missionary career in mind for his son. But he had instilled in him at an early age the principle that the authorities must always be obeyed, no matter what their demands. Höss writes:

Our guests were mostly priests of every sort. As the years passed, my father's religious fervor increased. Whenever time permitted, he would take me on pilgrimages to all the holy places in our own country, as well as to Einsiedeln in Switzerland and to Lourdes in France. He prayed passionately that the grace of God might be bestowed on me, so that I might one day become a priest blessed by God. I, too, was as deeply religious as was possible for a boy of my age, and I took my religious duties very seriously. I prayed with true, childlike gravity and performed my duties as acolyte with great earnestness. I had been brought up by my parents to be respectful and obedient toward all adults, and especially the elderly, regardless of their social status. I was taught that my highest duty was to help those in need. It was constantly impressed upon me in forceful terms that I must obey promptly the wishes and commands of my parents, teachers, and priests, and indeed of all adults, including servants, and that nothing must distract me from I this duty. Whatever they said was always right. These basic principles by which I was brought up became second nature to me.


When the authorities later required Höss to run the machinery of death in Auschwitz, how could he have refused? And later, after his arrest, when he was given the assignment of writing an account of his life, he not only performed this task faithfully and conscientiously but politely expressed gratitude for the fact that the time in prison passed more quickly because of "this interesting occupation." His account has provided the world with deep insight into the background of a multitude of otherwise incomprehensible crimes.


Alice Miller, in her book, also has an http://www.nospank.net/fyog13.htm">entire chapter on Hitler, and how he became the person he became as a result of his brutal upbringing, particularly by his father.

Elsewhere, most notably in her book http://www.alice-miller.com/books_en.php?page=11">The Body Never Lies, Alice Miller does what I consider to be a very good job in refuting the promise that comes with the commandment (“that the days may be long in the land which the Lord your God gives you”), and the implied threat that one’s days will be short if one does not honor one’s parents. The first part of her book has brief information about a number of well known writers and artists, including Marcel Proust, Virginia Woolf, and Friedrich Nietzsche, who may have been very perceptive about the ills and evils of the society in which they lived (particularly Nietzsche), but to whom it never occurred to challenge or break the commandment to always “honor your father and mother”, and who thus never assigned any blame or culpability to their parents or other early caretakers, no matter how cruel or abusive they may have been. The writers and artists whom she deals with in her book all died at an early or relatively early age, due either to sickness or to suicide. Physical illness is very often a consequence of or is aggravated by repressed emotions stemming from childhood mistreatment, according to Alice Miller (and I would agree).

I think there is no difference between exonerating abusive or http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553284347/drirensgetwithth">toxic parents, or absolving them from blame, or not confronting them, in the name of the commandment to “honor your father and mother”, and failing to prosecute Bush and Cheney for their crimes.


My own difficult relationship with my father

I feel very strongly about this personally because of my own very difficult relationship with my father, for which my being a Christian and supposedly having a “personal relationship with Jesus Christ” had been of no help to me.

While my dad did many very nice things and many very good things, and I had many good times with him, and my dad was an excellent provider for his family, and was certainly far from being the worst father anybody ever had, my dad was often extremely judgmental, and sometimes bordered on being abusive, especially emotionally and psychologically (though I did receive my share of spankings as a kid). He often decided in Godlike fashion that I needed to be talked to or treated like I had committed a crime or heinous sin if I had made an honest mistake, if I had honestly forgotten something, or if something fell short of his standards or expectations. And he would always say that whatever he said or did was done out of “love”, and “http://www.nospank.net/fyog.htm">for my own good”. And he was often especially poor at understanding, or sometimes even trying to understand, from my point of view, something I was struggling with, or some very sensitive personal issue that was causing me to be frustrated, upset, or unhappy.

Though he would deny it, my dad often seemed to have the attitude that being father of his children and head of the house gave him certain arbitrary privileges, and that because of all the nice things and good things he did, and how hard he worked, that he could do no wrong. If I were upset or angry with something he said or did, it was always a problem with me, never with him. One of his favorite sayings which he sometimes said only half jokingly was “I may not always be right, but I am never wrong”.

My dad died a little over 25 years ago now. I came to realize a little over a year after he died, after the grief and other normal feelings associated with the loss of someone close had worn off, how angry I still was at him, and that his attitude at times and much of his behavior were in fact abusive (or borderline so) and very disrespectful to me. I.e. it was not just something wrong (or “sinful”) with me that I had problems with my dad and was often angry toward my dad and resented things he said or did, which anger and resentment often spilled out to other people and other areas of my life, most notably to bosses or authority figures at my early jobs.

Along with that realization came the realization that my being a Christian had been of no help to me in enabling me to deal with my dad those times he was obnoxious or abusive. And I don’t think it was simply unfortunate that Christianity was not of help; I would say that Christianity aggravated my problems with my dad with, among other things, the commandment to unconditionally “honor your father and mother”, and an exhortation in Hebrews 12 to gladly accept the chastening of the Lord, like that of a “good” father, i.e. much like my father.

In fact my difficulty with my father, for which my being a Christian had been of no help to me, was I would say my biggest reason for my disenchantment with the Christian faith, and my eventually parting company with the faith, and in particular absolving myself of any duties and obligations specifically imposed by the faith (as opposed to those incumbent on any good or moral person). I feel as certain as I do of anything that this was the right and healthy thing for me to do, and am happy about having done so.

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