A Boy, An Injury, A Recovery, A Miracle?

[cleanhippie]

Uh, yeah, lets just ignore the top-notch medical care that this boy received and instead thank god and call it a miracle.

What. The. Fuck.

Why do believers try so desperately to promote such nonsense? :puke:

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Pope John Paul II will be beatified in May, which puts him halfway toward sainthood. To have gotten this far, the Vatican must believe that the late pope is responsible for a miracle. Earlier this year, the Vatican declared that a woman was miraculously healed from Parkinson's disease after she prayed to the late pontiff.

And this raises the question: How does the Vatican investigate miracles?

Let's start in Ferndale, Wash., where a potential miracle is under investigation.

--snip--

At the trauma unit at Seattle Children's Hospital, Craig Rubens, a pediatric infectious disease specialist, instantly suspected a flesh-eating bacterium called strep A. It was consuming Jake's face with terrifying speed.

http://www.npr.org/2011/04/22/135121360/a-boy-an-injury-a-recovery-a-miracle

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:puke:

[Bunny]

1. Why do you care what believers believe?

Really, why? I mean, you're posting about it on a political message board, complete with little vomiting emoticons. How can something as harmless as this cause you such distress? :shrug:

[Silent3]

11. Do you utterly and consistently, on all subject matters, always refrain...

...from stating opinions on matters that could be construed as "harmless"?

If not, then why expect others to keep such opinions to themselves?

Of course, whether or not belief in miracles is "harmless" is debatable, but I'll set that aside for now to focus on the tired old "why do you care?" gambit, which is usually nothing but evasion and hypocrisy, pulled out of the rhetorical bag of tricks almost exclusively to defend religion, pseudoscience, an other irrational beliefs.

[Bunny]

14. Well, I don't defend any of that stuff.

I'm just curious, really. I can't for the life of me imagine getting so exercised over something that has absolutely no impact on my life. I have plenty of issues to deal with, things that actually affect my life, that I don't need to generate any more.

But, do keep up the good fight. :patriot:

[ChadwickHenryWard]

28. So....

The RCC beatifying JPII doesn't affect your life, but cleanhippie commenting on it does? Is that right?

[Silent3]

33. +1 n/t

[humblebum]

19. Because he's cleanhippie, that's why. Nuff said. nt

[cleanhippie]

36. Because, Bunny, its not harmless.

[golddigger]

46. Huh? Maybe because this is a political board with a religion forum.

[virgogal]

2. Take a deep breath and calm down. It doesn't affect you so

ignore it.

[emilyg]

3. I believe in God and miracles.

[cleanhippie]

37. Why?

There is nothing even approaching what would be considered evidence to prove that either are real.

[Richardo]

4. Just heard this story on NPR

Dr Rubens told his story about being interviewed by the committee from the Vatican (Quote: "That's the first time I've been in front of an actual Devil's Advocate." Which I found hilarious.)

BUT: He did say that the Vatican investigative committee interviewed him with commendable scientific rigor.

AND: "Medicine does not have all the answers to certain diseases and why people survive or they don't, and I leave it to the experts in such things as divine intervention to actually determine as to whether this might qualify."

So: The doctor who was intimately involved in the case is not as threatened by the question as you seem to be.

[Trajan]

5. It brings up valid questions about the process of beatification and sainthood

And there are obviously those on this thread who are offended that the very validity of their prized rituals and practices might be questioned ...

Maybe it's wrong of you to bring such a subject up here, in this forum, where the theologically contented bask in the glory of their righteousness and holiness ?

For instance - Who am I to question whether there were glorious glowing beings who brought the book of Mormon to Joseph Smith ?

How can ANYBODY question whether such claims are real and valid ? ... As long as it brings a sense of being and comfort to those who accept such unbelievable assertions, then isn't that validity enough ?

Surely; nobody on this thread rejects the idea that glorious glowing beings came to Joseph Smith with the TRUTH, and gave him the golden plates of revealed truth, which he copied, as so ordered, and which is now known as the book of Mormon .....

Right ?

Everyone here is Mormon ...... Right ? .... Er .... what ?

You dont believe that ? .... Why not ? ... Joseph Smith said it's true .... This holy event, accepted by millions of Mormons in the same manner of those who accept the Catholic church's pronouncements of sainthood as absolute fact, would ALSO demand a similar level of acceptance, based on similar faint assertions of truth, without even a lick of actual proof .... right ?

Well ... I believe that those who would reject the assertions of Joseph Smith and the Mormons, and who reject Mormanism, do so under a similar basis as I, or someone like the OP, might reject catholic notions of beatitude and sainthood ... ESPECIALLY given the history of the Catholic church to promote their own on a strictly political basis over the centuries ...

The ONLY thing I really object to here - .... Why bring this up in the Religion/Theology forum ? ... Why not present it in the 'Atheism' forum ?

I believe in ZERO miracles ... none .. nada .. no way and no how ... I was born, indoctrinated, confessed, communed and confirmed in the bosom of the Catholic church, but I rejected the creed almost immediately as I walked out the church door of my own confirmation, and have not returned in some 40 years now .... Such 'miraulous' events are the product of medical science and the arts of mankind ...

OR? ..... Some as of yet unknown cause ... Perhaps the diagnoses was wrong ? ... Perhaps, like the cast of characters in a Benny Hinn ceremony, the actors are in a holy play in order to provide the 'solid evidence' of such claims ?

(Everyone here believes in Benny Hinn's miraculous powers ... right ??? ...... er ... What ?)

Nevertheless - This was probably better suited for the Atheism forum ....

Leave these poor people to their venerated rituals and inexplicable, unwarranted practices ... even if they are pure malarkey !

They just disbelieve in one less god, and one less religion, than you or I do ....

Go in peace .... Ah men !

(EDIT: And what else will they attribute to Karol Józef Wojtyła ? .... Is this miracle numero uno or miracle numero dos ? )

[dimbear]

7. Most of us realize that Joseph Smith brought the ultimate truth

back from the woods, of course. But there's a kicker. He only brought it for white people. This is a liberal board, and we believe people of all colors are entitled to a religion, even if it's necessarily second rate.

[Trajan]

9. Well ... Maybe he is right ?

Who are you to refuse the rejection of all except white folk into the loving arms of the Happy/UNhappy Deity ?

How dare anyone impose their human notions of fairness and inclusion on the Deity .... God can be racist ! ... Right ? ....

Ultimate truth demands ultimate belief ...

You need to believe it ... (INCLUDING the part that condemns you for disbelief)

[Bunny]

8. LOL!

Good to see that you're not worked up over this or anything. :rofl:

[Trajan]

10. EX catholics are like EX smokers ....

And I quit this year (smoking that is).

Normally - I ignore these provocative threads .. But the expectation of believers that none can question their assertions ? ... That is patently absurd ...

Gibbon noted an interested fact about Saints and Sainthood - NONE of the supposed miraculous acts of saints were claimed while they were alive ... ALL miracles are declared posthumously ...

One might wonder why nobody seems to notice actual miracles until years after they supposedly occur.

Yeah - EX catholics are like EX smokers ....

Dont get me started ...

(EDIT: By Gibbon:
"But how shall we excuse the supine inattention of the Pagan and philosophic world to those evidences which were presented by the hand of Omnipotence, not to their reason, but to their senses? During the age of Christ, of his apostles, and their first disciples, the doctrine which they preached was confirmed by innumerable prodigies. The lame walked, the blind saw, the sick were healed, the dead were raised, daemons were expelled, and the laws of Nature were frequently suspended for the benefit of the church. But the sages of Greece and Rome turned aside from the awful spectacle, and, pursuing the ordinary occupations of life and study, appeared unconscious of any alterations in the moral or physical government of the world." Chapter 15 )

[Bunny]

13. Who said they can't question the assertions? Not me.

What I asked is: Why? Why is what others believe so irksome to you? So what if the pope declares a miracle - it has zero impact on your life.

You're going to have a stroke if you keep this up.

[Trajan]

15. I have no problem with the religious beliefs of common folk

But, let's not pretend there is no history to rely on regarding the subject of religion and humanity - especially when religion is applied by governmental power ...

There is ...... baggage ...... And you haven't the gravitas to discard that baggage, on a whim, in an internet chatroom ....

Nevertheless - I did mention that this thread should have been generated in the Atheism forum ... not in the Theism forum ...

You wanna believe in fancy stuff like glorious glowing beings ? ... That's fine and dandy .. Have at it ...

But you want the skeptical to just STFU and accept these claims without question ? ...

Er ... what ?

Feckless claims of the Catholic church have lead to wars and death ... You cannot erase that fact with an abusive ad hominem against me ...

Anyways .... Should have been in the Atheism forum .. not here in Religion/Theism ....

BTW - I just came back from the Doctor's, and I am in excellent health ... Any other things you might be worried about ?

[Richardo]

16. I guess the question is why YOU post in Religion/Theology and not Atheism,

I've never understood the need to ridicule people's honestly-held beliefs, especially in a forum oriented toward the believers. It speaks to a certain level of low self-confidence on the part of the bully.

If someone were making claims for the supernatural in a Science or Medicine forum, I might understand the hostility. Might. But I'd still question the apparent need to belittle them.

[onager]

17. "...the bully?"

And where did you the idea that this is "a forum oriented toward the believers?" There are DU Groups for that, including an atheist/agnostic Group. Only donors can post in Groups. R/T is a public forum, open to everybody.

[Richardo]

18. I'm not questioning anyone's right to post in this or any other forum on DU,

...I'm merely asking why someone would come into a Forum oriented toward a certain segment and subject matter, and ridicule the paricipants' feelings, beliefs and values.

I wouldn't understand the same disruptive behavior in Women, GLBT or the Guns forums either. Debate, sure. Mocking and ridicule? Not very respectful.

[WolverineDG]

24. No one goes to the Atheism forum/group/whatever

No readers, no drama.

dg

[Silent3]

27. The validity of religion and theology is entirely on-topic in Religion/Theology

As for "mocking and ridicule", it seems that when the subject matter is religion, some people suddenly become hypersensitive to what constitutes "mocking and ridicule".

Compared to things said here in R/T, harsher wording goes by in arguments in other forums about, oh, if somebody should run in a primary against Obama, pseudoscience crap about vaccines and autism, etc., without anyone batting an eyelash until things devolve into outright name calling -- and even that often slips by before moderators get involved.

I could say "Having Dennis Kucinich primary Obama is a stupid idea" and no doubt kick of a shit storm of criticism for that, but most of that response would simply be equally harsh or harsher criticism of anyone who didn't want Kucinich to primary Obama, chest-thumping outrage about Obama "selling out" or being a "corporate lackey", etc. It would be very, very unlikely for some self-appointed peacemaker to wander into the fray, chiding us for being such terrible meanies and asking us to think about the poor widdle feewings of the Obama or Kucinich supports before we said such things.

Make that comment "Attributing that boy's medical recovery to the Pope is ridiculous", however, and all of a sudden the merits of miraculous cures is a far less important subject than how we say what we think about alleged miracles, where we say it, or why we don't just keep it quietly to ourselves.

[Trajan]

21. Im just following up on an existent thread ...

I have no business interjecting in ANY thread, as far as I know .. whether philosophy, or kite flying ....

Like you, I kinda roam around these here parts, and spew my lame opinions, and then recede, seemingly, out of existence ...

Feel free to condemn me .... Shrugs ...

I didn't start this thread ....

[cleanhippie]

38. Since when did questioning ridiculous claims become ridicule?

And I mean ridiculous in the literary sense.

–adjective. causing or worthy of ridicule or derision; absurd; preposterous; laughable: a ridiculous plan.

[Richardo]

40. Well, for one, you labeling them as ridiculous is in and of itself ridicule

So you've got circular logic going for you.

[cleanhippie]

41. But I see it as "absurd" and "preposterous."

I have to be honest about my viewpoint. When evidence is produced that can verify the claim of "miracle", I will gladly retract my statement.

[Silent3]

25. Any one individual believing absurd things probably has little or no...

...impact on my life. Living in a culture where absurd beliefs are common, however -- that most certainly does have an impact, if not on me personally then on society at large, an impact that goes beyond just those who personally participate in the absurdity.

Dumbing down science in school classrooms, substituting prayer for medical treatment, failing to protect the environment because of twisted interpretations of the Bible, preaching against the use of condoms to prevent the spread of HIV, etc. -- all of this is enabled by a culture that withholds criticism of absurd belief systems, and even goes so far as to exalt "faith" in things that can't be proven as some kind of virtue.

What essential difference is there between a person believing that the Pope's prayers cured the boy in the OP, and a Christian Science parent deciding that prayer is the only cure for their child? Perhaps the parents in the OP wisely didn't make prayer the only course of action, but if you blithely accept or ignore the supposed "logic" intercessory prayer, on what basis can you reject the "logic" that prayer is strong when faith is stronger, and the best demonstration of strong faith is to reject medicine and rely on prayer alone?

But, hey, if some parents kill their kids with that nonsense, that doesn't effect me personally. Why get bothered by that when "I have plenty of issues to deal with" of my own? :eyes:

[sudopod]

42. Why do you care what she thinks?

*shrug*

[WolverineDG]

6. Well, the doctors themselves say they can't explain why he was healed

from the link: The panel interviewed each doctor for more than an hour, asking details about Jake's condition, his recovery after each surgery, fatality rates. They asked nothing about miracles. Rubens says they were the consummate professionals.

"They took a very hard look at whether this really was something beyond what they described as the wonders of modern medicine," Rubens says.

The doctor says he didn't get the feeling at all that they were stacking the deck. But Joe Nickell, a paranormal investigator, says there is "no evidence that a miracle took place."

Rubens, btw, was the child's doctor & questioned by the panel.

Funny how so-called "skeptics" like Nickell are throwing temper tantrums over the use of the word "miracle" in the healing of a child none of them are related to or were involved with.

dg

[Silent3]

12. When someone recovers in a way doctors can't explain...

...while still suffering greatly beforehand and being left disfigured for the rest of his or her life, obviously supernatural intervention is the only good explanation left. :eyes:

[AlecBGreen]

20. I prefer to focus on this statement

"I'm just happy to celebrate Jake's 11th birthday."

It reminds me of the Pharisees interrogating a certain ex-blind man, to which he replied "Whether he is the messiah or not, I do not know. All I know is I was blind but now I see!"

I think the parents might echo that sentiment. Whether or not it was a miracle, we dont know. All we know is, he was written off as dead and now he has his life in front of him. THAT is a cause for celebration!

[Silent3]

22. Belief in gods does seem to require selective focus

Truth matters more to me than happy sentimentality. I'd personally rather do my best to integrate all of the facts of a situation, try to take in the big picture, instead of trying to pretend that "good" is merely a matter of things turning out less worse than they might have.

[WolverineDG]

23. Dude, they're never going to get it

I think Jesus had something to say about that too....

;)

dg

[cleanhippie]

39. Oh, but we DO know.

It was NOT a miracle, there is no such thing.

[sudopod]

43. Scienists used to not be able to explain why the tides came in and why the tides went out.

Nor were they able to describe how magnets work.

None of that made those things miracles, it only highlights a local lack of knowledge.

[WolverineDG]

44. Oh brother

:eyes:

dg

[sudopod]

45. ;) nt

[Iggo]

26. 3 out of 4 ain't bad. (n/t)

[ChadwickHenryWard]

29. Anatole France has a very poignant observation on miracles.

He notes that miracles always occur in those fields of human knowledge that are most incomplete. Take, for example, astronomy. We can, and could at the time that France wrote, accurately predict, within in minutes and seconds, how long an eclipse of the sun will last, on what day it will occur, and where on the Earth it will be visible. We can do this thousands of years into the past and into the future. (A solar eclipse occurred in ancient Persia during a battle between Alyattes II and Cyaxares on 28 May 585 BC - it is used as a reference point to date other ancient events.) This is a field in which our knowledge is astonishingly thorough and precise. Claims are never made in the modern time about miraculous change in the motions of the sun, moon, or planets. This is because they never happen, and what's more anybody anywhere in the world can disprove the claim simply by pointing to the sky. Take on the other hand medicine, a field hugely more complex that the motion of celestial bodies. While our knowledge of the human body and laws governing it are far more complete than they were in France's time, some events are still beyond our complete comprehension. It is therefore much easier to make miraculous claims about health and sickness. It is not always immediately apparent why some event of human health has occurred. This leaves rather more room for supernatural claims. Further, since these things are really private matters, it is much more difficult for skeptics to refute claims to which they are not personally witness.

[AlecBGreen]

31. I agree

I think 'miracle' is often used to explain the unexplainable or that which seems to go against huge odds. If I hit "black 31" on the roulette table 5 times in a row, is that a miracle? Who knows.

I DO believe Jesus healed people as was claimed. The mechanics of that healing are beyond my understanding, and thus, I label it miraculous.

[ChadwickHenryWard]

32. Well, there are a colloquial and a technical definition of "miracle."

Colloquially, something mathematically improbable is labeled a miracle. But there is no reason why you couldn't hit "black 31" five times running. It just takes enough attempts. One of the important principles of evolutionary biology is that, given enough time, the improbable becomes the inevitable.

But to discuss miracles as philosophers discuss them is to talk of events that defy the known laws of the Universe. France himself wrote upon visiting Lourdes that even an amputee growing back a lost limb (a feat no faith healer has ever even successfully pretended to do) would not constitute a miracle because the limbs of crabs, insects, and cephalopods grow back naturally, and it's just barely possible that humans have had the ability all along without our knowledge. But if Jesus, by laying his hands on the sick or the lame, cured them through divine power, that would be a miracle. This is because, as Hume notes, such an event would be contra the totality of observed phenomena over the entire course of human existence. That is why the power was ascribed to supposed divinities long before Jesus came along - those telling the stories, and their listeners, knew that healing the blind and lame by touch was not something that happened with any great regularity. Thus, it is appropriately ascribed to an alleged miracle-worker. Likewise with walking on water, transubstantiation, and resurrection. Far more rigorous observation has been made since the time of the ancients, and these things seem even less likely to occur now than they did then.

I would also like to note that, as far as the technical definition of a miracle is concerned, we should not regard simply those things that are mysterious to us as miraculous. Many things (I would assert, everything) that were at first glance mysterious to us produced a mundane, natural explanation upon examination.

[Trajan]

34. What is miraculous ...

I believe ... Is that human beings will accept stories from 2000 years ago, that a man healed with a word, or a touch, and with no other evidence but hearsay to support the claims ...

That is a blooming miracle, in my eyes ...

[KaoriMitsubishi]

30. Miracle? Um NO.

Physician makes terrible diagnostic error sending patient down the path of expensive therapies, then discovers error: Oops!

Physician covers error: It's a miracle!!

I'm still waiting for the miracle of regrown limbs, eyes, etc.

[GKirk]

35. Nobody seems to have picked up on the real miracle

...in the link.

"I was driving for a lay-in," Jake says, picking up the thread, "and then I got pushed from behind the back, and I hit my lip on the base of the basketball hoop."

We have an eleven year old who is able to jump high enough to hit his lip on a basketball rim. Imagine how high he will be able to leap by the time he is in high school or college. :)