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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 09:44 AM
Original message
Why do Americans still dislike atheists?
Long after blacks and Jews have made great strides, and even as homosexuals gain respect, acceptance and new rights, there is still a group that lots of Americans just don’t like much: atheists. Those who don’t believe in God are widely considered to be immoral, wicked and angry. They can’t join the Boy Scouts. Atheist soldiers are rated potentially deficient when they do not score as sufficiently “spiritual” in military psychological evaluations. Surveys find that most Americans refuse or are reluctant to marry or vote for nontheists; in other words, nonbelievers are one minority still commonly denied in practical terms the right to assume office despite the constitutional ban on religious tests.

--snip--

A growing body of social science research reveals that atheists, and non-religious people in general, are far from the unsavory beings many assume them to be. On basic questions of morality and human decency — issues such as governmental use of torture, the death penalty, punitive hitting of children, racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, environmental degradation or human rights — the irreligious tend to be more ethical than their religious peers, particularly compared with those who describe themselves as very religious.

Consider that at the societal level, murder rates are far lower in secularized nations such as Japan or Sweden than they are in the much more religious United States, which also has a much greater portion of its population in prison. Even within this country, those states with the highest levels of church attendance, such as Louisiana and Mississippi, have significantly higher murder rates than far less religious states such as Vermont and Oregon.

As individuals, atheists tend to score high on measures of intelligence, especially verbal ability and scientific literacy. They tend to raise their children to solve problems rationally, to make up their own minds when it comes to existential questions and to obey the golden rule. They are more likely to practice safe sex than the strongly religious are, and are less likely to be nationalistic or ethnocentric. They value freedom of thought.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/why-do-americans-still-dislike-atheists/2011/02/18/AFqgnwGF_story.html
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 09:47 AM
Response to Original message
1. OP subject asserts American atheists hate atheists, i.e. hate themselves. I doubt that. n/t
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Booster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
2. I think it's because if atheists are right, and no one will ever know
for sure, then the rest look like idiots who believe in fairytales.
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Sadena Meti Donating Member (332 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #2
50. Pray for the success of the Large Hadron Collider and attempts to generate life in laboratories.
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
3. Because we exist.
Because we go about our lives without fear of invisible supernatural entities. Because we behave ourselves because it's just the right thing to do, not out of fear of punishment after we're dead.

Lots and lots of reasons, but mainly because we exist and make people ask questions they don't want to ask.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Very well said.
:applause:
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
19. BINGO, you get a cookie!
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MineralMan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #19
22. White chocolate chip and macadamia nut for me. Thanks!
My favorite.
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Vehl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
24. well said! nt
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #3
75. It's a completely alien point of view to some people.
Believers of various descriptions can tell themselves that whatever the mythical forms, every believer worships the same divine creative force. Atheists don't. By admitting that they don't believe in divinity, atheists are saying "You are all wrong, not just in the details, but at the most fundamental level. Your whole sense of self, purpose and place in the universe is based on a lie." It's hard for a lot of people not to take that personally.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #75
76. "Your whole sense of self...is based on a lie."
Edited on Tue May-03-11 09:21 AM by humblebum
When you make such an absurd statement as that, you are saying that you KNOW in fact their is no god. And common sense should tell you that there is no possibility of that. Therefore you cannot say that something is a lie with any sense of credibility, when in fact you cannot determine the truth objectively.

Personally, I don't even consider the atheist's POV to have much merit simply because it is based on such a narrow epistemology. However, that is your right to think that way. But, radical atheism, which uses a very bigoted tone against religious believers, needs to be called out for what it is.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #76
77. Two points.
That point of view does not depend on definitive knowledge that there is no god. If theists accept their gods on faith, then they cannot very well object to atheists' lack of belief based on the same. Anyway, how ever sure atheists are that there is not god, it is clear that believers have absolutely no reason to think there is one. That which is asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. And since believers are basing their world view on nothing, it can be accurately characterized as a lie. What if I said that I will give you $10 million next week after I win the lottery. Can you prove that I won't win it? Still, I have no reason to think I will, so that promise is a lie.

Second, we do know for a fact that there are no gods, even if it is only circumstantially. We know enough about human thinking to know how and why people are prone to invent godly explanations for things. We know that god had no part in developing life on earth and that its initial inception does not require a divine explanation. A universe created by gods ought to have divine fingerprints (so to speak) everywhere. Instead everything we have ever discovered and explained has a natural explanation. Everything that was once attributed to divine causes is now known to have natural explanations: medicine and disease, weather, governmental authority, human feelings and relations. WE are at a point where the only way god can be real is if we define him into irrelevancy. Sure, I can't absolutely rule out some supernatural being who does nothing but silently watch, but such a being is not a god.
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tridim Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
4. If there were a Universal god, it would encourage atheism.
It wouldn't want to be worshipped.

Prove me wrong unreccers.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. That's what I think. All of that would be limitation, i.e. wrong. nt
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Did you happen to watch Lawrence ODonnell's interview with Franklin Graham this week?
It was hilarious; Graham said:
- Going to church doesn't make you Christian
- Saying you are Christian doesn't make you Christian
- Only God know whether ANYONE, one could assume that this includes himself, is Christian or not
- And, apparently, none of the above matters, because God love us all anyway.

Cripes, what a scam!

:crazy:
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OHdem10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
5. Atheism is a direct threat to Religion, It is just as simple
Atheists do not believe in God and Religious believe in God.

For the insecure this can be frightening.

I do not believe all Americans dislike Atheists. Most fear
will be found among Fundamentalist Religions who are always
looking for a boogey man. Their insecurity makes them
feel compelled to "put down" others in an effort to make
themselves feel important. (Inferiority Complex of sorts).
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msongs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. religious ppl believe in a god system that supports their own personal learned biases nt
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
6. What if you sacrificed a whole bunch of might-have-beens,
suppressed relatively innocuous impulses all of your life, damaged your relationship to significant others over inconsequential stuff and, in some cases even caused actual physical harm to happen, what if you did and didn't do a whole bunch of stuff in the name of something that others, by the way they live, show you it's all somekind of a mistake? If there's an error in our understanding, isn't all of that denial, pain, and sacrifice in the name of _______________________ a waste? How would you regard that possibility?
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I would think that someone who exhibited those traits would need professional help.
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 10:46 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. I don't think they think that. It appears that they think all anyone needs is
more of the same, except when they say they don't.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. There is a well-documented human tendency to throw good money after bad, so to speak. nt
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Speck Tater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
10. Deep down they have doubts about their beliefs. They hate being reminded of those doubts. nt
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patrice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. It's like that creepy feeling you can get if you let yourself focus on itin an unfamiliar dark room.
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Sadena Meti Donating Member (332 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #10
53. The same reason the despise other religions. They don't want anyone saying anything other than...
what they already believe.


The majority of people are unwilling to pursue any line of thought / reason unless they are already certain of / comfortable with the potential conclusions.

They will not consider what is unless they already agree with what then should be done.
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tavalon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
13. Because it scares people who aren't sure. What if? What if?
I've had a near death experience. I don't need to fear athiests, I think we can all be right and life can go on.
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mzteris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 11:02 AM
Response to Original message
15. jealousy.
Atheists have the courage to do what many "believers" wish they could do.

Atheist's have freedom from such things as:

- Constantly squelching "doubts" while pretending to yourself that you don't, or trying to "rationalize" those doubts using irrational data.

- Wrapping one's head around completely contradictory information and holding conflicting ideas in you heart and mind simultaneously. Trying to "make sense" using nonsensical data.

- Rejecting your own logic to accept a doctrine directly based on the superstitions of pre-educated man.

- Rejecting your own sense of "self" and concept of self-worth to be replaced by some set of dogma dictated by a bunch of delusional power-hungry men who designed "religion" around keeping the few in power and the many in thrall.

- Remaining within a community of "like-believers" - most of whom you secretly can't stand - just because they belong to your belief system.

- Not having to really accept responsibility for anything because "god" and the "devil" control it all. (Other people are being "punished" when bad things happen to them. You're being "tested". Things go well for you because you're "special" & "blessed by god". If you fail, the "devil made you do it". . . )


Those first two can and do make people a little bit crazy. Some of them a lot of bit crazy. And associating with and modeling your behaviour to mimic people you don't even LIKE can destroy a person's sense of self-identity.

These are the people who believe that you must cling to some human created ideology of superstition in order to be "good". That one MUST have that carrot/stick of heaven/hell in order to behave morally. They are suspect of those who are obviously "good people" - but how can they be because they aren't being MADE TO BE GOOD!?! gasp! IMHO those people are much less "moral" than those who choose the moral path because it's the right thing to do. (Not to mention the whole "pseud-morality" of most major religions issue.)


People fear what they don't understand. And "the religious" can't understand how some are not afraid to embrace the freedom of not being forced to "believe" in something - that if they had the courage- they'd admit that deep down - they don't really "believe" it either. (sssshhhh - don't question. Just have "faith". :evilgrin: )


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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. +1
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dimbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #15
26. This is the correct bad news. Atheism is for the lucky and the strong.
Edited on Sat Apr-30-11 07:53 PM by dimbear
(like the song says) Examine history for the treatment of other elite beliefs and you see it punctuated with ghettos, death camps and pogroms. < Jews, Vaudois, Mithraists.......>

How does that old saying go? You even up the plants by cutting down the tall ones.

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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #26
74. Atheists and other Heretics have not exactly had it made in the shade...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albigensian_Crusade

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aikenhead

Atheists usually live by the "tall poppy" rule.

I applaud the "new atheists" for speaking out
and reminding us that our numbers are far
greater than they appear.
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zbdent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 11:43 AM
Response to Original message
18. It depends on which "atheists" are being referred to ...
Conservatives and Republicans LOOOOOVVE Atheist Ayn Rand ...
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 01:53 PM
Response to Original message
20. It is psychological projection, they are projecting their issues on "The Other".
Edited on Sat Apr-30-11 01:53 PM by Odin2005
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
21. I am not American, but judging from the smaller but existing minority of Brits who hate atheism
and judging from what I've seen from American RW writers on the subject, the key answer may indeed be that:

'(atheists) are less likely to be nationalistic or ethnocentric'

combined with the fact that they are also less likely to be socially authoritarian.


Here are a few examples:

Melanie Phillips and Norman Tebbit are probably the strongest proponents of the Christian Right in the UK today.

http://www.melaniephillips.com/articles-new/?p=735

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1042755/LORD-TEBBIT-If-head-church-uphold-standards-shaped-hope-there.html

They are afraid that secularists and liberal religious leaders will undermine old-fashioned social tradition, especially with regard to teh gays; encourage 'moral relativism' (i.e. rejection of authoritarianism); and by weakening traditional values, encourage a takeover by The Others, which right now means the Muslims.

The other thing that Phillips and Tebbit have in common is that they are not themselves Christians. I mean this explicitly - not in an 'No True Scotsman' sense. Tebbit is apparently an agnostic if not an atheist; Phillips is Jewish, and probably not very Orthodox. Clear evidence of how for the religious right, the right-wing values often come first, and the religion is useful to back that up.

But of course being religious *helps* you to be a religious right-winger, even if it's not essential. Here is an excerpt from a local Anglo-Catholic priest's blog: he seems to have given up on the nationalism, but to ardently support authoritarianism, especially against women:

http://liturgicalnotes.blogspot.com/2011/04/national-unity-again.html

(Incidentally, this blogger has several times referred on his blog to the President of the United States as 'The abortionist Obama')

And here is a well-known Christian Tory blogger, 'Cranmer', from about a year ago, complaining about the fact that people now say you're *bigoted* if you speak out about those gays or those immigrants:

http://archbishop-cranmer.blogspot.com/2010/04/self-censoring-of-debate.html


So to sum up:

Religious right-wingers, and those influenced by the religious right, tend to dislike atheists - and religious liberals - for their acceptance and encouragement of secularism. It is (at least in the UK) secularism more than atheism itself that they hate; some political anti-secularists are themselves atheist, agnostic, or members of minority religions. They oppose a system of government which does not attempt to legislate traditional moral values; to preserve social authoritarianism and traditional gender roles; and to condemn homosexuality and abortion. They often consider that this weakens us in fighting against 'the others' - the Muslims, the immigrants, the foreigners.

It sounds as though such people have had more influence on general public opinion in the USA than the UK - possibly through the televangelists? In the UK, we have had many Prime Ministers and other leading politicians who didn't 'do God', from our first Prime Minister Robert Walpole nearly 300 years ago, to Churchill who was totally indifferent to religion and the atheist Attlee in the mid-20th century, to our current situation where two out of the three party leaders are atheists. So it's very different from the American situation. Nevertheless the 'pro-life' movement in particular probably has the power to defeat candidates seen as overly secularist in all Northern Ireland constituencies and in some elsewhere in Britain.


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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
25. It's also interesting that the authors are both atheists. nt
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. AND militant!
:rofl:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. Cleanhippie is promoting social conservativism in Britain?
I learn something new every day on these boards.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #25
31. Only one out of four, not two, authors; and he may be more agnostic
Edited on Sun May-01-11 01:35 PM by LeftishBrit
Melanie Phillips is Jewish, and the other two links are to highly religious Christians: one of them a clergyman.

But it's true that some people promote religion as a means of imposing social conservativism, rather than for its own sake. And though many of them are religious themselves, not all are.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-30-11 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
23. Interesting question.
My first thought was, well, any group that "goes against the grain" with a starkly different minority view is going to be meet with suspicion, fear, prejudice--at least from some people, and especially from either insecure people or powermongering people. For instance, how would an American who identified himself or herself as a "communist" fare in social, job and political situations? Even though "communism" is no threat whatsoever to their mode of life--and putting aside the long history of insanity in U.S. politics on this matter--self-identification as a "communist" would inspire...suspicion, fear and prejudice.

I was trying to think of something comparable as to "button-pushing." And, indeed, in my youth, "communism" was strongly associated with "atheism." I remember being taught to pray for the "conversion of Russia." "Godless communists" was the negative phrase.

But I feel there is something more at work, as to atheism. And it is this: Religion has been such a handy tool for powermongers of every kind--from bad priests and preachers up to bad, warmongering, torturing, thieving presidents--that its handiness as a power mechanism gets constantly re-enforced by people in positions of power, or who seek power, who have a tendency to try to dominate and exploit others. This is not to say anything about anyone's religious beliefs. It is a comment on how religion gets USED--for bloody Crusades, for witchhunts, for Inquisitions, for devaluing and demonizing women, for supporting rich elites, for impoverishing and exploiting others, for starting wars, for greed, for a long and dreary list of purposes that have nothing to do with, say, "Love thy neighbor."

But that is not why people hold religious beliefs, or why the churchgoers among them go to church (or other religious ceremonies). They do not intend to be exploited or manipulated. Most people are religious for two reasons: 1) They genuinely believe in the core of the religion (say, "Love they neighbor" or, say, for Indigenous Americans, "revere Mother Nature"), and/or 2) for community.

Most religious people are not against others (who don't believe); they have a need to be in accord with with others. The discordant notes are almost always the result of bad priests or preachers, bad members of whatever congregation, bad politicians, who exploit this need for community for vile purposes. You can find their ilk in any organization--businesses, the military, police forces, schools, environmental groups, the fire department, Hollywood film productions, the Bank of America, you name it. Wherever people gather, for whatever purpose, there will always be those who seek to dominate, to gain power and to use power for ill purposes.

And it is these sort of people who demonize "atheism" (or anything else they find useful to demonize). I REALLY don't think that the phenomenon of demonization is unique to religion. But I do think that religion--far, far back to its very earliest origins in human society--has been, first of all, a way to pull people together--to solidify a tribe or community in their common purpose of survival which requires cooperation. It allays individual fears of dying. It brings people into accord. That may even be a definition of "God"--or it's one that I am thinking about, anyway. "God" is what we want to be, what we are striving toward--it is a goal: amity and cooperation in a loving community that values everyone.

That this core impulse of humanity has been diverted at times into demonization and other evil purposes is simply a wrong path--which powermongering selfish leaders have sometimes led people down--USING their need for amity and community to exclude others--to not recognize the humanity and the rights of others, and also to devalue variety.

The odd view in a tribe--or the odd person in a tribe, or the "outside" person--is ALSO necessary to survival and community. The odd, creative person might figure out a way not just to chip a stone tool but to bind the chipped stone to a handle. Their messing around with stones and binding materials may seem very odd, to most of the tribe. But eventually it will benefit the tribe. Human beings began to understand this, at some point, and began to tolerate oddity and to foster creativity.

The odd stranger showing up--from outside the group-may have knowledge of distant food sources or sweet climates, and know the way there. He/she might also be a spy, with a band of murderous warriors following behind. But if human beings had always acted on their fears and suspicions, and had not taken chances with outliers, the human race would have expired long ago. The odd, outlier view is essential to human survival and community, and to what I am thinking of as the ultimate goal of humanity: to be God, in the best sense--to be amicably united.

Seeking to be amicably united also includes our scientific and engineering impulses--efforts to improve our life conditions, even to the point of physically living forever, controlling the stuff of which we and everything else is made, and doing good with that knowledge--for instance, terraforming other planets, turning them into beautiful green matrices of life (--if we don't destroy our only known beautiful green matrix of life before we get there).

Excluding the outlier is the exact opposite of what religion has done for human beings, from time immemorial (pulling people together in common purpose). And it is only when the few powermongers among us get hold of a group, via religion, that religion becomes a vehicle of exclusion--and thus retards human progress. Granted, this has happened quite a lot, but it is not inevitable, and it is not in accord with the initial impulses of religion (to learn, to explain, to calm, to heal, to unite).

The early Christians brought a new idea to the Roman Empire in that the Christians regarded slaves as equal human beings. The Romans were actually not as bad, as slave-holders, as the racist slavery that came later, in our era. Nevertheless, slavery was a deep flaw in the Roman social system which crippled and destroyed many lives and minds, and this needed a correction, for the sake of human progress. The idea was born that "all men are created equal"--not just all citizens of the Roman Empire, but all people, everywhere. This was the original, creative impulse of Christianity--and it extended to women and children as well, who were NOT equal even if they were citizens. It is only later, around the 5th Century, when the powermongers got hold of the Christian religion, and wedded it to state power, that it began to be oppressive and exclusive--a political tool. It took Europe and England about ten centuries to undo the damage to this initial Christianity idea (equality). And there have been many grave troughs in that progress (the slave trade, the decimation of Indigenous Americans, the Third Reich, the Vietnam War--all perpetrated by people calling themselves "Christians"). So the use of religion for power purposes is not to be dismissed as some kind of anomaly that can be easily overcome. It is very dangerous.

I just think that, in considering its dangers--exclusion and demonization being among its most serious dangers--we should understand the difference between genuine belief/community (the desires of most religious people), on the one hand, and the terrorization of the human mind that can occur when individual people think they are "God" and dominate and use others, for their own self-aggrandizement, power or greed.

There is a BIG difference between these two modes of religion, and we only have to look around us for examples to see how important that difference is. Consider the life and works of Catholic Trappist monk Thomas Merton, for instance. He publicly advocated that the U.S. to abandon its nuclear arsenal. He explored the deepest ethics of "love thy neighbor." Or Fr. Dan Berrigan, who went to jail for pouring fake napalm on Draft records during the Vietnam War. I think there are a lot of Catholics like this--I think it's probably the majority. They may not be such activists as these, but they really believe "love thy neighbor."

Personally--having been raised a Catholic--I think even the best Catholics are too attached to the distorted patriarchal architecture of the Vatican power establishment (which derives directly from those 5th century power worshippers who wedded Christianity to the Roman Empire). It's kind of like the English attachment to the Monarchy--a visceral need for stability. Thomas Merton, for instance--truly great and visionary man that he was--obeyed his superiors when they told him to stop advocating nuclear disarmament in public. While the order did not come from Rome (that I know of), it nevertheless reflects that authoritarian structure that even rebel priests (and other rebellious Catholics) seem to need--a need that goes back to the original human reason for creating religion in the first place: community.

In any case, I guarantee you, if you are an atheist, that most Catholics--and probably most Protestants--do not hate atheists. Most Catholics, and I think most Protestants--have grown far beyond the "Godless communist" ravings of the 1950s era, though there are certainly powermongers still in the midst of these religious people, and cynics and evildoers in our political establishment who ally with those powermongers. "Atheists" are a danger to their POWER. And that power is a danger to us all. That is mostly why you meet prejudice--the powermongers using propaganda to enhance their power. They want everyone to believe the same things--just like the 5th Century Church prelates who burned and suppressed all the other gospels and formulated a monolithic ideology which they then got enforced by the state. MOST Christians don't hate you. And the best Christians understand very well that your alternative view is essential to community.

My view of atheism is that it is essential for humanity to realize that God does not exist outside of human beings. WE are the love, the community and the eternal life that most of us posit as being dependent upon an exterior agent--but which, in reality, is what we seek to be. It may be a "fairy tale" that God exists--that God is a sort of person, who lives in Heaven, who is going to reward or punish you in the end. But it is no "fairy tale" that most people want there to be a God or Gods. So what is that virtually universal desire and imaginative creation all about? It is NOT easy to explain.

As I said, I am coming to the conclusion, myself, that it is a goal--that, in a sense, God exists in the future, or in one future, in which all the best qualities of humanity come to fruition--our scientific passions, our various loves, our generosity, our communal spirit, our creativity. We are trying to progress toward that goal. It is the common ideal of humanity. However distorted it may appear at times, a common thread comes through: our best selves in unity with each other. Aldous Huxley called it "The Perennial Philosophy"--the common thread of compassion in all philosophies and religions. But I'm not sure he saw it as the goal of becoming God, together.

And to get there--to Godlike knowledge, wisdom and unity--we have to stop committing the "sins" of exclusion, violence, war, greed, egotism, consumerism, lording it over others, trashing of Mother Nature and all the stupid, unwise, selfish things that most of us know are wrong. These are not going to be punished by a God whom we project as existing. They are simply going to result in us NOT becoming God, together. Our species will destroy itself, and that will be that--a tragic end.

But we have posited, to ourselves, that we CAN go there--to wisdom and unity. And this, to me, is where atheism is so incredibly valuable. To say that there is no God is the truth that we must realize before we can finish our journey to becoming God--to being as powerful, as wise, as knowledgeable and as compassionate, in our collective existence, as most of us imagine God to be--and also to expand and meet others in the Universe who are seeking or have achieved their own projection of God.

I know it sounds a bit "fairy tale"-ish. I was just re-reading this and thinking, 'Wow, where did all this mysticism come from?' I was starting to de-bunk my own thoughts. But I'll leave that to others. I think there is substance here--something going on with us humans that we don't understand very well and need to understand, and that's what I'm reaching for.

I think that I haven't sufficiently dealt with the "dark side": our fear of death before we get to the point--if we ever do--of literally living forever. Scientifically, it seems right over the horizon--but it's not here now--we're all gonna die, as far as we know, and we all want to be special and NOT die, and we humans could get into a pretty ugly fight about who gets the new medical miracles that extend life and may extend it indefinitely.

There are a LOT OF "dark" paths we could go down, to becoming a less than perfect and compassionate collective God--and into stark evil. We've seen it in the past. We see worrisome signs of it today. All those innocent people exploding under our drone bombers are not terribly impressed with the God we are projecting. Their God didn't save them. Our God didn't care. And this is one of many "dark" Gods that we could become, if we don't destroy ourselves (our more likely fate, since our wisdom and our engineering abilities are so out of sync): Overly clever, heartless destroyers who think they are God.

There is the "dark side" in many of our behaviors, and the "dark side" of the universe itself--literal "dark matter" and "black holes" and the incredibly beautiful but incredibly violent lives of stars and galaxies. Do we become God to harness all that incredibly immense energy? Is that our goal--to be the controllers and creators of universes? What kind of Creator will we be? The omens aren't very favorable, that the more powerful we become, the more benevolent we will be. Is our projection of a punishing God--and, in some religious belief systems, a cold-hearted one, who would cast innocents into eternal Hell for the slightest offense, or, in some religions, is the embodiment of horror, suffering and death--the thing that we ARE becoming, or a tidal side-path that we might be pulled further into?

If you are an atheist and believe that this is it, there is no more, you have this life, make of it what you will and then it's over, it must be a great relief not to be doing all the projections that most of us are doing, good and bad. And I would imagine that you look at the rest of us as kind of insane, which we are. We desperately want there to be something more. I tend to side with the rest of humanity in this loony bin of religion. But I don't necessarily think that insanity, in this sense, is a bad thing. It's troublesome and mysterious. And it is neither good nor bad, in itself. It just is. Most people think this way. Most people have this projective need and ability which can lead them way far from reality and way far into bad behavior. The projections, however, have this strain of commonality toward some kind of distant or future collective good. Most people don't realize that they are themselves creating or destroying that distant or future good, NOW. If they would just give up the notion that God exists, they could start taking responsibility for the kind of God that they and all of us together could possibly become, if and when we stop being assholes.

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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Pax vobiscum.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 05:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
39. Et cum spiritu tuo!
Not to get too clubby here...

Westerebus said: Peace be with you!

And I answered: And with your spirit!

A bit of Catholic esoterica--and a fine sentiment, actually! (--except that Catholic theology way over-emphasizes the spirit over the body--to a very distorted, unbalanced and insane degree--because of male Catholic prelates' and theologians' visceral loathing of the Goddess, Mother Earth, our physical being. So I would say, to "Peace be with you!," "And with your integrated mind and body!" or, "And with your whole being!", or maybe, "And with you and your community!")
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westerebus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Pacis ut totus vir is benevolentia.
I'll translate it for you. Peace to all men of good will.
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Silent3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 02:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
59. A god as abstract as the concept you define...
...isn't really a god by most people's definitions, certainly not by the definition used by most people who have a strong and active dislike of atheists. Can I believe in a concept which is not an entity of some sort, but rather simply an ideal, and ideal of hope and goodness and unity and calming of fear? Sure, sounds like a good idea to me. I hardly think that would make me a theist, however.

If I decide to act as if that ideal is an entity, pray to it as if it's a being than can hear my words or thoughts, still aware that I started with a conceptual ideal, then I'm still not quite sure if I'd be a theist at that point. Perhaps I'd simply be an atheist playing a mental game with myself, with an internal wink and a nod.

If I decide to act as if that ideal is an entity because I'm hoping that it's true that it is, if I start saying to myself that maybe my ideal is something more than just an ideal, but rather something "out there" with its own independent existence, a supernatural entity or basic force of nature, then that's where I'd say I start becoming a true theist, or at least a theistically-leaning "agnostic" (by the most popular sense of that word, not by the best definition of that word).
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BroccoliTowel Donating Member (33 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 01:24 PM
Response to Original message
30. give it time
it will take time. Americans will get used to the idea of atheism
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
33. I don't think that Americans generally dislike atheists for being atheists per se,
but I think that many Americans tend to associate all or most atheists with the New Atheists or radical atheists, which many consider to be bigoted hate groups. People do not dislike Lance Armstrong or Billy Joel, both atheists. But people like Hitchens, who has exhorted hatred, or Bill Mahre, who ridicules and belittles religion and religious people - these types have caused many to lump all atheists together as a group.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 02:12 PM
Response to Reply #33
34. Sure, because Hitchens, Maher, Dawkins, or those who agree with them
are JUST like the following bigoted hate groups:

KKK
Stormfront
Aryan Nation
League of the South
Watchmen Bible Study Group
...and many, many more...

Yes, "New Atheists" are just like these hate groups, as they encourage murder and ethnic cleansing, commit crimes, and cheer violence against others at every opportunity in support of their hate group.

Except, you know, not.

*Bonus: There's a common thread running through the vast majority of hate groups listed on the SPLC website. Can you guess what it is?
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #34
35. When they encourage ridicule and hatred explicitly - then yes
they can be labeled as such.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 03:45 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. I know one American who hates atheists for being atheists.
He hates them so much he has to make shit up about them being in "bigoted hate groups."
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #36
43. you always make that statement and it is uncalled for. My posts cannot hold a candle to
the anti-christian excesses expressed in R/T. Go look in the mirror.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 12:06 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Deleted message
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Sadena Meti Donating Member (332 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #44
54. Don't do that you'll trigger epilepsy.
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 06:15 AM
Response to Reply #43
46. I always make that statement because it is true.
Just because you think someone else is picking on Christians, doesn't make your behavior acceptable.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 01:29 PM
Response to Reply #46
57. So then you are saying I have no right to criticize radical atheism?
That is the behavior that you find unacceptable. Interesting. Yes. You really value free thinking and free speech. LOL
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. I think you have the right to criticize whatever straw men you want to.
Edited on Mon May-02-11 03:13 PM by trotsky
And I have the right to tell you that they are, indeed, straw men, no matter how much you desperately want to believe otherwise.

Tell you what, when these "radical" atheists start bombing abortion clinics or flying planes into buildings, I'll be right there with you condemning them. But until then, you whining because some atheists happen to say we should openly criticize and yes, even occasionally mock religion (as we do with all other sorts of opinions, from political to artistic), strikes me as hilarious and ridiculously disingenuous at the same time.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. Since when does "radical" automatically equate to acts of violence?
You use the "strawman" excuse as your default to avoid confrontation. Inexcusable. That is your strawman. And of course we know that atheists never use violence. SARCASM
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 05:24 PM
Response to Reply #62
64. Here, let me help you out. You seem a bit confused.
Edited on Mon May-02-11 05:27 PM by cleanhippie
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

A straw man is a component of an argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.<1> To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.

-----------------------------

"So then you are saying I have no right to criticize radical atheism?" --- Strawman

"You use the "strawman" excuse as your default to avoid confrontation. Inexcusable. That is your strawman." --- No, its not.




Now you know.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Actually it fits to the tee.
Edited on Mon May-02-11 06:25 PM by humblebum
""You use the "strawman" excuse as your default to avoid confrontation. Inexcusable. That is your strawman." Yes, it is

Using the strawman excuse has always been your ace in the hole when unable to debate a topic as well as others here.

When something like this is said it deliberately misrepresents the opponent's position:"I know one American who hates atheists for being atheists. He hates them so much he has to make shit up about them being in bigoted hate groups."
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 07:08 PM
Response to Reply #65
66. Yes it does. It fit you perfectly.
Claiming an argument is a strawman when it is, in fact a strawman, is not itself a strawman. You make strawman argument, as you did above to trotsky, then when he called you on it (and rightly so, as it WAS a strawman) you claim that HIS response to you was strawman. As he did not attempt to refute your argument with a similar, yet unrelated argument, as you did in your response to him, his response was NOT a strawman.
Now you continue to insist that it is, even though the definition has been given to you AND your own responses used to show that your argument IS a strawman but trotsky's is NOT (since he didn't even MAKE an argument). Continuing to insist it is is either willful ignorance or cognitive dissonance on your part, I'm not really sure which, only you can know that (or your doctor).


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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 07:53 PM
Response to Reply #66
67. I think you are confusing yourself. nt
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Uh, yeah, that must be it.
Not.

But then again, where I see contradiction, you see confirmation.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. "which many consider to be bigoted hate groups."
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #41
52. +10000000! But be careful....
Edited on Mon May-02-11 10:34 AM by cleanhippie
some may think it is more of that "anti-christian excess".
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Ninjaneer Donating Member (577 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #33
48. People like Hitchens, Maher, and Dawkins are driving home the fact that
its okay to laugh at clowns. You don't want people to laugh at you, take off the make up.
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #33
61. Hitchens wrote his book about Mother Teresa in 1995 and 'God is Not Great' in 2007
Maher started producing regular TV programmes in 1993.

There was no openly atheist Congressman till 2007 (by contrast there were already openly atheist MPs in Britain in the days of Good Queen Victoria).

Bush Sr, president from 1988 to 1992, said that he did not regard atheists as full American citizens.

Jerry Falwell founded the Moral Majority in 1979.

Pat Robertson founded the Christian Coalition in 1987.

Elsewhere, conservative Muslims took over governments in Iran in 1979, and in Pakistan in the 1980s.

From the dates, would seem to me that the 'militant atheists' may have been responding to the increasing militancy of the religious right, rather than vice versa!







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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #61
63. Militant atheism has been around much longer than you purport. nt
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LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 07:08 AM
Response to Reply #63
73. So has the religious right.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #63
78. Only as long as the first fundamentalist coined the term. nt
Edison would be proud, you have kept that record skipping a long time.
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. Fundamentalists didn't coin the term. But you already knew that.
Edited on Tue May-03-11 11:59 AM by humblebum
The League of "Militant" Atheists was started long ago and militant atheists played a huge role in the French Revolution. Being militant is nothing new.
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #79
81. Militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...
Militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...Militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...Militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...Militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...Militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...Militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...Militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...militant atheist...skip...





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The Nexus Donating Member (231 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 04:26 PM
Response to Original message
37. There are atheists that need to ponder....
if they are truly atheists or are they deicide-ists
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cleanhippie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun May-01-11 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #37
38. Huh?
Explain, please.
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #37
47. God-killerists?
This oughta be good.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:29 AM
Response to Reply #37
49. Please elaborate.
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Sadena Meti Donating Member (332 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #37
51. Do you mean atheist vs an-theist vs anti-theist?
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Iggo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 10:49 AM
Response to Reply #51
55. I find that's usually what they mean.
A lot of people's definition of Atheist is God-hater.

They have a hard time wrapping their minds around the idea that we don't hate what is not there.
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sudopod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #37
56. Why don't you love the Immortal God-Emperor?
Edited on Mon May-02-11 11:38 AM by sudopod
He is entombed in the Golden Throne to protect us from our sins. Only though Him can mankind hope to survive the wrath of the Dark Gods.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
58. Zuckerman has a fondness for rhetoric, which unfortunately limits his ability to produce insight.
Consider, for example, his "Denmark, which is among the least religious countries in the history of the world, consistently rates as the happiest of nations."

It's not immediately clear to me how one should understand religion in Denmark. Denmark has an established state church, which is Lutheran, and about 80% of the Danes belong to that church. It seems to be true that most Danes seldom actually attend church -- but few never attend church: the majority of Danish infants are still christened, the majority of Danish youth are still confirmed, and the majority of Danes have church funerals
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. It's called tradition.
Most Danes go through the motions - surveys indicate up to 80% or more of the population self-identifies as non-believers.
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon May-02-11 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. Oh, but you know you can't trust polling data,
...unless it agrees with your point.
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #68
71. That could be. Or perhaps Danish notions differ from US views in multiple ways,
and our cultural ideas fail, in important ways, to explain their cultural notions
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trotsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. Oh yes indeed.
The vast cultural differences between secular Western democracies are very difficult to comprehend sometimes.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue May-03-11 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
80. Habit?
> Why do Americans still dislike atheists?
> Long after blacks and Jews have made great strides, and even as homosexuals gain
> respect, acceptance and new rights, there is still a group that lots of Americans
> just don’t like much: atheists.

Maybe the "Americans" being discussed are just used to being intolerant and
trampling over everyone else due to their over-active "exceptionalism" glands?

They are so used to stomping around the world, covertly or overtly, in order
to get whatever they're after from "the Others" (no matter how that term is
being defined in terms of nation/tribe/whatever) that the mere existence of
yet another arbitrary category of "Other" is perceived as a target for their
discrimination.

Just line up behind the Native Americans, the homosexuals, the Jews, the Blacks,
the women, ... and you'll get your chance at "respect, acceptance and new rights"
in turn ...

:P
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humblebum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #80
83. That would imply that Americans dislike
Lance Armstrong, Jodie Foster, Billy Joel, etc., which is news to me. Now, let's see. What differentiates those from Bill Maher, C. Hitchens, etc.?
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darkstar3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #83
84. Beauty?
Americans can be wildly superficial...
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frogmarch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed May-04-11 01:41 PM
Response to Original message
82. Because we're Satanists, of course!
Anyway, that's why my fundy relatives dislike me. They think I'm a devil worshiper. To my brilliant fundy relatives, there's no difference between atheists and people who worship evil deities. I've explained to them that I don't believe in supernatural entities, period - gods, goddesses, devils, angels, demons, ghosts, etc. - but it goes in one ear and out the other. To them I'll always be the abominable Satanist in the family.
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