man lived with body of dead fiancee for days, praying she would return to life

[cleanhippie]

WICHITA, Kan. - Police in Kansas say a 57-year-old man lived with the body of his dead fiancee for several days, praying she would be brought back to life.

Investigators don't suspect foul play, but an autopsy on the 54-year-old woman was planned Thursday.

Calls from neighbours concerned about the woman's welfare sent police Wednesday night to the home the couple shared in Wichita. Officers said the man didn't want to let the officers in. He was detained after they smelled a strong odour.

KAKE-TV reports the man told officers he was praying for divine intervention to bring his fiancee back to life. He was taken to a hospital for a mental evaluation.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/police-us-man-lived-body-dead-fiancee-days-221701348.html

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Why was he taken to a hospital for a mental evaluation? Shouldn't we just respect his beliefs? What makes this behavior require a mental health evaluation?

[hlthe2b]

1. Sad....

I don't think the snarky comment was necessary, however. The poor guy appears to have "lost it" with grief. He wouldn't be the first, religious or not.

[RaleighNCDUer]

2. I suspect the "lost it" predated the grief by a long margin. nt

[cleanhippie]

4. I will ask again, since you seem to have missed the questions.

Why was he taken to a hospital for a mental evaluation? Shouldn't we just respect his beliefs? What makes this behavior require a mental health evaluation?

[hlthe2b]

9. His need for a mental healht evaluation is independent of religion

Period

[cleanhippie]

10. How can you say that?

It was his religious beliefs, nothing more. I have the sense that you are wanting to have your cake and eat it too.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

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[cleanhippie]

13. Its funny, on one hand you chastise me for "distain and contemp" while at the same time

refusing to see my point of view.

I think that the irrational belief in the supernatural IS a mental health issue, regardless of how much or how little that belief is. I agree 100% that this woman had severe mental health issues.

[okasha]

22. Now you're diagnosing the dead woman

while knowing absolutely nothing about her?

Wow.

[cleanhippie]

24. Diagnosing? Hardly.

But you do make me realize I responded to the wrong post! Thanks for that.

But it doesn't matter now, as that post was deleted.

[darkstar3]

11. Why?

The man's religious conviction convinces him that God can, and will under the right circumstances, raise the dead. I think CH's point is valid: Why is this religious belief worthy of mental evaluation and not of the ever-shouted "respect"?

[KaoriMitsubishi]

46. Why is this religious belief worthy of mental evaluation and not of the ever-shouted "respect"?

Because sane reasonably intelligent adults don't have imaginary friends.

[mwb970]

3. Many things hyper-religious folks say and do require a mental health evaluation.

As I'm sure you know.

This sad story combines the denial of reality with the belief that one can invoke the all-powerful, omniscient Creator Of The Universe at any time to satisfy one's own needs.

Remember what Jim Morrison said? "You cannot petition the Lord with prayer!"

[cleanhippie]

5. "hyper-religious"?

How does one determine the difference?

[mwb970]

20. Well, I wrote "religious nuts" first, but then changed it on edit.

There are religious people who are not also right-wing Fox "News" assholes. Aren't there? There have to be.

My intention is not to insult all people who are at all religious (I'm not like that), just the ones who (a) take it way too far (like this guy) or (b) conflate Christianity with cruel, hateful right-wing lunacy.

[cleanhippie]

21. You raise some intersting points.

just the ones who (a) take it way too far (like this guy)

Just what is "too far"? For me, indoctrinating your child into your religious beliefs before they are able to reason is "too far".

conflate Christianity with cruel, hateful right-wing lunacy.

but conflating it with feel-good, loving lunacy? Thats ok?

[mwb970]

23. I see what you're saying.

The indoctrination can be pretty bad, although my parents made me go to Sunday School for years and it just didn't "take". But I have heard many stories of child indoctrination that read more like child abuse!

As for the other, well gosh, if it makes someone treat others well, even for the wrong reason, at least that's harmless. Isn't it?

I'm just reluctant to judge an entire group by the actions of a few (although yes, it does seem to be more than a "few"). The last thing I want is to sound like a right-wing jerk who says that all Muslims are evil. I live next door to a Muslim family, and to be honest they're more bland and boring than evil. (The guy has a beautiful lawn and garden, though.)

[TwilightGardener]

6. Well, when you're living with a corpse who starts to rot and stink, in the hopes

that it will come back to life, you are seriously, dangerously detached from reality.

[cleanhippie]

8. Where did he get that idea from in the first place?

I seem to remember something about a guy who was dead for three days but was resurrected. A lot of people believe that really happened. Are they too, "detached from reality"?

[MineralMan]

16. And that same guy reportedly brought people back to life when asked.

So, this man's supplication is logical, if one accepts the premises of the religion. It did not work in this instance, however. Perhaps his faith was not sufficiently strong...

:shrug:

[iris27]

49. And Lazarus was starting to stink too.

John 11:39
"Take away the stone," he said. "But, Lord," said Martha, the sister of the dead man, "by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days."

[MineralMan]

17. Religion specifically has to do with unreality.

Its entire basis is a belief in supernatural entities that are all-powerful and capable of doing miracles. Where is the logic flaw in this person's asking his deity to restore life to his beloved. There's a story in the Bible where that worked just fine. When Jesus was asked the bring a dead person back to life, he reportedly did just that. In fact, in the story, the dead person "already stinketh." See John 11 for the story. What this person did was in keeping with Biblical teaching.

Don't blame people for believing what they are taught.

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

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[Old and In the Way]

14. There's the Macro Belief and then there's the Micro Belief.

Reminds me of the Catholic Church's position on exorcism (coincidence that I watched "The Rite" last night and "The Exorcism of Emily Rose" last week?). It's a central tenant of the Church that the Devil does exist and that Exorcisms are real. But, as in the case of Emily Rose, when the person dies during the ritual, the Church really didn't want the Priest to go to trail to defend the practice. Seems like the religious belief of the existence of God and Evil are important and unquestioned as a general rule, but when it comes to application on the individual basis, there's a whole different set of dynamics involved.

[MineralMan]

15. Another example of extending religious beliefs to an extreme.

There are many instances of such things. Most people are able to recognize that the things that religion teaches are only applicable to a certain degree. A few are not able. The teachings remain the same. When people take religious beliefs to their logical conclusion and act on them, we call those people mentally ill. They may well be, but their logic is sound and based on the very teachings of whatever religious doctrine on which they're basing their actions.

If you accept the premises that God can raise the dead and that it is possible to ask God to do things, the logical extension is that you can ask God to raise someone from the dead. There's no logic flaw in this.

[cleanhippie]

18. Well stated.

[MineralMan]

19. Well, according to John 11,

the man had Biblical support for what he was doing. According to that chapter, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead after several days, even though he was warned that said Lazarus "stinketh." It's all in keeping with the teachings of Christianity. All perfectly logical if you accept the teachings. If you don't, then not so much.

An interesting post in the Religion/Theology forum.

[hlthe2b]

43. And, which Christian denomination teaches that this will happen?

I am not familiar with any Christian denomination--Protestant or Catholic-- that teaches that physical death should not be accepted and that the dead will be brought back to life in the physical realm--as opposed to a spiritual afterlife. Your citation certainly doesn't suggest otherwise.

I appreciate your academic approach to the question at hand, but I fail to see how that passage is relevant beyond presenting a depiction of Jesus Christ as having had miraculous powers in his physical life, in keeping with the Son of God belief. Do you know of a Christian denomination that teaches that the dead will be brought back to life in the physical realm (presumably if you pray hard enough)? I am no theologian by any stretch of the imagination, but it is certainly nothing I have ever encountered in my past exposure to both Protestant and Catholic doctrines.

An aside from reading this thread (and others in the DU religion forum)...I am agnostic, but when I see some on DU (not referring to you,MM, but others here)absolutely stereotype all forms of religion--and in particular all forms and types of Christianity, I become alarmed. I am as concerned as anyone about the extremes of religion and the exploitation from "within" the various denominations and sects--particularly among the fundamentalists (or those, like the Phelps clan that uses a claim of religion to justify their hateful behavior). But, I still believe in both freedom of religion (and freedom from pressured religion). Most of all, I believe in honest debate. Tolerance does not imply a lack of criticism, but it does imply honesty in the debate.

It seems to me, that some responding to this very sad story, want only to use it as an excuse to ridicule, what is, at its core, a very sad story of deep grief and denial. Whether the reaction resulted from a religious basis or "religious excuse", it is a reaction that underscores a need for help and compassion. :shrug:

[MineralMan]

44. No, I don't know of any. The point is just a logical one.

Individuals, especially individuals who are not mentally stable, do sometimes over-literalize religious teachings and act in ways that are hard for rational folks to understand. When someone is not rational, for whatever reason, religious teachings sometimes take on different characteristics for them. I feel terrible for this poor man, and hope he gets some help.

[LeftishBrit]

25. Terribly sad

I think he was probably unhinged by her death - if not mentally unwell to start with. The delusions were based on religion (delusions are usually based on something in the culture), but probably not in this case caused by long-term extreme religious beliefs. Though one can't tell for sure without a lot more information.

[rug]

26. Do you really have such difficulty distinguishing mental illness from religious belief?

[MineralMan]

27. Depends on the religious belief, actually.

Not all sects of Christianity have the same doctrine. Some have doctrines that are close to this person's thinking, actually. Others deny that mental illness exists and prohibit their followers from seeking medical attention.

Religion is not a single thing. Not in any way. Christianity is not a unified religion with a single doctrine. It is a conglomerate of hundreds or even thousands of sects, each with its own set of doctrinal specifics. Yet all teach that God answers prayer and use the John 11 chapter to demonstrate that God is, indeed, capable of restoring life to someone several days dead.

Sometimes, it's impossible to tell the difference between mental illness and religious belief. Just sometimes.

[rug]

28. No, it depends on the science of psychiatry.

I have yet to speak to a psychiatrist who has difficulty distinguishing illness from belief.

Maybe I'll ask one to observe this forum.

[laconicsax]

29. Are you claiming that the mentally ill can't be religious?

That's an interesting claim.

[rug]

31. Hardly, but a nice try.

[laconicsax]

34. So you're just asserting a clear division between hearing voices...

and hearing voices and thinking it's God. Or a clear line between being homophobic and believing that God is homophobic, right?

[rug]

37. You keep stretching don't you?

Try again.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

40. Deleted message

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[laconicsax]

41. If you say so. n/t

[MineralMan]

30. Hmm...but what if one's religious beliefs and religious

leaders prevent one from seeking psychiatric care?

Of course this man was mentally ill. That's obvious. But, there is still logic in his belief that God could reanimate his fiancee. I mean, it is written that God can do that.

My wife's great aunt, who is long since deceased, killed her three children, a very long time ago. She was convinced by her minister not to seek any psychiatric care for her long-standing depression and sometimes psychotic episodes. She trusted her minister. The reason she gave for killing her children was that she wanted them to go to Heaven before they had sinned too much to get there. She was committed to a mental institution, where she received medication (such as it was back then). Eventually, she was released and lived for many years in the same small town where this all happened.

So, in a sense, it was religious belief that led to what happened. Her own religious belief, along with that of the minister who told her to pray instead of to seek medical help, were the proximal causes of her actions.

You'll forgive me if I have little patience for religion. When it leads to such things, it is not a positive influence on society. And such situations are less rare than you'd think, actually.

Your particular sect of Christianity may be perfectly reasonable. Not all are.

[rug]

32. My sympathies to your wife.

Not knowing the facts I can't comment on her great aunt beyond that.

However, if she, or most anyone, became so ill that she killed her children, there should be signs to those around her, well beyond any clergy.

I represented a woman who threw her infant out a third story window in the Bronx for the same reason.

In her case, she didn't get psychiatric help because neither she nor her family had insurance.

She's still in the hospital.

[MineralMan]

33. Well, my wife never knew her great aunt.

It was the big family secret, which she didn't learn about until she was in her 40s.

Religion is a source of comfort for some, sometimes. It's also a source of great evil. Religion is not a single thing, nor can it all be lumped into a single opinion. Where it acts for good, it's not a problem. When it does not, then it is a huge problem. Trouble is - it's hard to predict, really.

I'll have none of it. I have a well-developed personal ethic that prevents me from knowingly doing harm. That is sufficient for me. I'm OK with my life encompassing the entirety of my existence. I can't manage to believe in the supernatural stuff, anyhow, so religion is impossible for me. I once thought I had it, but I was still a child at the time. After I became an adult, reason prohibited me from believing such things as are taught by religion. Just can't do it.

I have no problem with people believing what they are capable of believing. My problem only comes with people who do harm in the name of religion. Then, it's a big, big problem.

[dimbear]

35. Go to the track and put your life savings on the longest shot.

Guess what? I think you're crazy. Just sayin'. Nothing personal.

[onager]

36. Reminds me of Tony & Susan Alamo...

Susan...died on April 8, 1982. Alamo stated she would be resurrected and for six months he had her body on display "while their followers prayed". (Wikipedia)

According to one of the followers (on a TV show about cults), Tony was enraged when local radio stations kept playing one special oldie and dedicating it to him: Wake Up, Little Susie.

:rofl:

It wasn't funny for Alamo's followers, according to the woman I saw on TV. He took out his rage on them with savage, random daily beatings.

Alamo is unfortunately still alive, but currently serving a 175 year prison sentence for child molestation and other crimes. He says he's no different from the Biblical prophets who also spent time in jail.

[struggle4progress]

38. So: unnamed man in Wichita detained for psych eval nearly three weeks ago. Any updates?

What did the unnamed woman's autopsy reveal?

[rug]

42. The thread has been buried in Kansas.

RIP.

[cleanhippie]

51. And now its been resurrescted!

Praise be! Its a miracle!

[Silent3]

45. I often find it sad when an interesting thread...

...in General Discussion gets exiled to the Religion/Theology forum.

But to get exiled from Religion/Theology to Kansas? Now there is an ignominious fate! :evilgrin:

[cleanhippie]

47. Its back! Continue discussion.

Thanks Skinner.

[struggle4progress]

48. So: what were the results of the psych eval and autopsy?

[iris27]

50. That is heartbreaking.

Poor guy.