Posted from PostSecret without comment.

[darkstar3]

[iris27]

1. Anybody know where the background image is from?

It's so over the top, I don't know if it's a parody, or a Chick tract, or what, but I'm curious.

[muriel_volestrangler]

6. A WW2 poster with "The Killer" and "Accidents"

Parody by Austin Kline (one of a [link:atheism.about.com/od/religiousright/ig/Christian-Propaganda-Posters/|series he did): http://atheism.about.com/od/religiousright/ig/Christian-Propaganda-Posters/Godless-Atheists-Menace.htm

[Newest Reality]

2. From experience

I am also afraid of coming out to either atheists or Christians that I am neither an atheist or a theist.

I have been jumped on and flayed by both parties because then cannot accept another, neutral perspective in their dualistic, verbal battle.

My understanding has come from all my years of eclectic study of both sides of the issue. I have tried to illustrate that my comprehension was more like Taoism, but that really didn't help at all since some consider that a religious point of view.

Yet, like the Satanists, I understand the persecution and annoyance that atheists experience by presenting something as a polar opposite to what is a predominant, and often inculcated viewpoint. Satanists tried to reverse everything the Catholic Church presented as a form of protest and contrast, (Yin-Yan) while atheists seem to negate the proclamations of Christianity as if they are real or worthy of negating. Yet, that's all culturally based and reactionary in the long-run. It is yet another place to do battle with the mind.

Some may see beyond it and, while not holding that seeing above others in a oneupmanship sense, they can still relate the understanding of unitive motion, polar opposites, and a sense of understanding of how those elements relate and work together.

[yurbud]

3. I tell people I'm willing to be happily surprised when I die

Which is as unsatisfying to atheist friends as my Christian ones.

But if we cannot verify any supernatural claims we can't categorically prove there is nothing there (though we can say anyone who says anything definite about it is an idiot, lunatic, or liar).

[Newest Reality]

5. Thanks!

Yes, that is a variable there.

I also consider the Zen concept where the question is asked, "Show me your original face before you were born."

When I think of death, I join Mark Twain in realizing that, I was already dead for billions of years and it caused me no inconvenience whatsoever.

Yet, here we are with this new god, we call mind, worshiping it as if it were anything better than the ideas of a god it came from. I tend to not turn anyone on to U. G. Krishnamurti, both because his name suggests something Hindu or what have you, and because, after years of in-depth research into science, philosophy, religion and the like, his un-copyrighted concepts hit the nail on the head, depressed me totally and blew away whatever delusions I was clinging to in a totally materialistic, non-religious way. That was some charade that and I would hope we could all be and act as ourselves that way.

Well, we will be what we are. Some people are deeply involved in some heavy dichotomies in ways that, as in the Matrix, they will fight to protect and defend no matter what.

A few can see into the relationship and nature of dualties and I wish that it could be all of us seeing that. We would be invincible and no power or heirachy could control us or disulphide us from our being and purpose. We would be living as a whole and totally interactively with a true understanding that selfishness is normal and it is only about how far you can extend the idea of yourself in a pragmatic way. Do you not depend on your environment and others to survive? The air and water and Earth and sky are a part of that as well. If you were really selfish and also reasonable and practical, wouldn't you take every factor around you into consideration as a part of your self-centered realty? If the poor have no health care, do they not present a vector for diseases that you can succumb to? If the drug addicts have no drugs or care, will they not steal what you have? Will the hungry take what they need in desperation or to feed their families?

Being truly selfish is not about being only concerned with you and what you get over and above others. It is about knowing and caring about the results that your condition has on others and how, in the long-run, they will react. If you wanted stability, security and peace in which to enjoy you selfish materialism then you would most certainly want to assure that the surrounding environment of people and conditions would support that indefinitely. Otherwise, you are a delusional idiot who is not really selfish, but rather, egomaniacal and on a path to self-destruction.

[westerebus]

13. Old proverb.

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink.

[trotsky]

7. Time to pull this one out again.

[cleanhippie]

14. Question for you.

You stated, "My understanding has come from all my years of eclectic study of both sides of the issue."

Just what, exactly, are BOTH sides "of the issue?"

I mean, if we are talking about religion, the ONLY side are the claims being made by religion. There is no "other side", because the religious side has not PROVEN that ANY of their claims are true.

I don't think asking for PROOF of the claims of the supernatural is "the other side of the issue." So just what IS "the other side?"

[dmallind]

35. that's like saying you are neither symmetrical nor asymmetrical

This modern pretense that there is anything between theism (believing in gods) and atheism (not believing in gods) NEEDS to be jumped on (flaying is a tad aggressive though).

[GliderGuider]

36. I prefer to think of myself as both symmetrical and asymmetrical.

I get what the poster is saying, being a hard-core wishy-washy reverently spiritual atheist non-dualist myself. Zen, Advaita and Taoism express my position the best.

I try not to get caught in trying to pick either side of any coin as the "true" side. Instead I prefer to hold the whole coin - recognizing that in my holographic fragmentary self I carry all the qualities of humanity, to some degree.

[dmallind]

37. But that is patently absurd

Just as in symmetrical vs asymmetrical, theism and atheism are binary options. Since atheism simply means "lacking theism", nobody can both have and lack any single attribute - hence just two options.

It doesn't matter how vague the theism is, if belief in any gods exists, it's theism.

It doesn't matter how spiritual or reverent the atheism is, if no belief in any gods exists, it's atheism.



Sincere thanks to both of you by the way for, at least so far, not claiming that "agnostic" represents a third option here. That only speaks to knowledge, not belief.

[GliderGuider]

39. Of course it is! That's the delightful part.

It reflects the fundamental absurdity of life, and reminds me not to take any of this too seriously. If I hold all the absurdity of the universe inside me, it reminds me that I am the universe.

If pressed I will own up to being a pantheist, as well as an atheist, an agnostic (from the epistemological perspective), a believer in the Beloved, and even Love itself. I'm not sure what box that fits me into.

The Tao that can be spoken is not the true Tao.
"Yes it is!"
"No it's not!"
"Oh, you're here for an argument? You want Room 5. Next!"

[readmoreoften]

4. As an queer atheist who lives in Texas, I find this hard to imagine.

But, indeed, it sucks to pull away from the shackles of a religious family and it's a sad comment that even so-called "progressive Christians" who accept LGBT persons can be so harsh.

[Bluenorthwest]

8. Sure. 'IF it were gay'. Sure.

Note the maker of the image is not gay and atheist stating that atheism is the greater social difficulty, but a straight person imagining things as they might be if...sort of insulting. If the artist is afraid, that is the artists problem, not an actual equation. The artist knows nothing of the reality of the scenario he so quickly co-opts.
In short, the artist is free to share the suicide rates among atheist youth, compare and contrast. Than if I were. uh huh. Self importance on the half shell.

[okasha]

9. Then there are all those federal and state laws

prohibiting atheists from marrying the persons they love.

[GKirk]

11. You changed subjects...

...we were discussing telling friends and relatives about being an atheist, not problems one would have with the laws of the land.

[okasha]

12. We're discussing an invalid comparison

between the dangers of being openly atheist and openly gay.

[cleanhippie]

16. Antually, its a very valid comparison.

http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/03/24/atheists-hated-more-than-gays-muslims-all-other-groups.htm


http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AntiAtheism.htm

[okasha]

17. It's just terrible.

I can hardly walk past the historic courthouse in my city without seeing the corpses of atheists dangling from the century-old pecan trees.

I have to lock all the doors and gates to my house promptly at noon on Sunday because of the after-church mobs chasing atheists down the streets, screaming "Kill them! Kill them!"

Almost every day, some state legislature passes a new law denying bodily integrity to atheists, dictating what medical procedures they can access and how, and when and by whom those processes can be delivered.

In 45 states, atheists are forbidden to marry the person of their choice, cannot access legal rights available to married non-atheists, and may not be allowed to visit their partners in hospital or act for them in emergencies.

Projects are underway in several states to build walls to keep atheists out, require them to present papers on demand and deny citizenship to children born to non-citizen atheists within the US.

But there's a bright spot. I understand that some Lakota ladies and Navajo gentlemen will be going onto the atheist reservations to teach the poverty-stricken inhabitants beadwork and silversmithing, so that they can have craft work to sell to the gawking tourists.

[cleanhippie]

19. I really like it how you are able to be so empathetic to other groups like this.

Oh, wait, you're not. You are being obtuse. Again. How expected.

[okasha]

20. No, I'm being sarcastic.

Demographically, American atheists are overwhelmingly white, majority male and above average in education and income. I don't know of any stats about sexual orientation, but I'm assuming it's about the same 90% het as the general population. In other words, they are, as a group, among the most privileged in the country.

Wringing your hanky about how hard straight white upper-middle-class men have it--spare me.

[cleanhippie]

21. More obfuscation and false equivalency bullshit.

Your argument is about as genuine as a chinese DVD.

:puke:

[okasha]

23. Someone needs to tell you

that a smiley is neither an argument nor a set of facts. If there's a false equivalency in my post--as there actually is in the OP--all you have to do is show that those demographics are in error. Go for it.

It should, incidentally, be getting through to you that every LGBT person on this thread has been calling bullshit on the OP. But that's obtuseness for you.

[westerebus]

26. Good on you.

You don't need my endorsement, but I will offer it anyway.

Human rights are civil rights are equal rights!

There is nothing obtuse about that opinion and I'm an old straight middle class white man.

[okasha]

27. Thank you. That's a perfect summation.

There's a dozen or so old straight middle class white men in my local evnrinonmental action group, and every one of them's a great guy.

[iris27]

33. Not every LGBT person.

Speaking only in terms of family/friends reaction, which is what the original PS was about, I have received more vitriol from my family for walking away from their faith than my late uncle did from them when he came out as gay. They were both ugly, but mine was uglier. Because there was always a chance in their minds that my uncle could repent - but denying the Holy Spirit is unforgivable, dontcha know.

Also by contrast, they pretty much don't give a shit that I'm bi since I'm het-partnered and the way they justify their gay hate is that the orientation isn't the sin, just the action.

[okasha]

34. But you still called the image "over the top,"

which I suppose is a gentler criticism than "calling bullshit."

The fact is, if you look at a comparison on any basis but the idiot remarks of GHW Bush, it's far more dangerous to be an out LGBT person than an out atheist, for the simple reason that atheists do tend to belong to other, highly privileged groups, and that offers them considerably more protection. I do not personally know a single atheist--and I know, perhaps, more than the average person because I've been an academic--who has been killed or gravely injured for being an atheist. I do know other LGBT's who have been nearly killed and/or suffered life-altering injuries in gay-bashings.

Nor is it just my personal experience. Federal hate-crime statistics show that atheists are in fact the least-targeted minority group. Out of 8,322 hate-crime victims recorded for 2009, the latest year for which the FBI has stats, 11 were atheists.


http://www2fbi.gov/ucr/hc2009/data/table.01.html

[iris27]

41. But the sender of the PostSecret is not (most likely) the creator of the image, they just chose it

as a backdrop to express their fears about their family's reaction. And in that limited instance, I do not think it's a false equivalence.

I don't think anyone here has said that broader societal levels of persecution are the same for atheists as gays.

I also have to wonder if the discord between stated levels of hate/mistrust (where atheists come in worse than gays) and outright attacks, is because it's easier to stay closeted as an atheist. Overall, it's a fairly minor part of one's life, as compared to the significant and identity-encompassing fact of who you love, so there's less of your essential self that you need to hide away.

I do know that if I were forced to walk around with either "QUEER" or "ATHEIST" emblazoned on my forehead, the latter would terrify me much more than the former.

Granted, I'm a woman, so there are some asshole fratboy narratives that work in my "favor" (ooh two girls kissing! HAWT!) even though I'm fairly butch-ish. And I do live in a good-sized city. But still.

[Sal316]

22. + 1,000,000,000,000,000

[onager]

29. Well, male except for...

Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Natalie Angier, Ophelia Benson, Susan Blackmore, Leslie Cannold, Jane Caro, Catherine Deveny, Ann Druyan, Rebecca Goldstein, Jennifer Hancock, Jennifer Michael Hecht, Susan Jacoby, Wendy Kaminer, Paula Kirby, Joan Konner, Nica Lalli, Tanya Levin, Molleen Matsumura, Jennifer McCreight, Sheila McLean, Adele Mercer, Maggie Miller, Meera Nanda, Taslima Nasrin, Christine Overall, Sumitra Padmanabhan, Sue-Ann Post, Laura Purdy, Joan Smith, Julia Sweeney, Valerie Tarico, Polly Toynbee, Marlene Winell...

And that's only a few of the better-known atheist women writers/journalists. The atheist movement is a lot more diverse than you seem to think...as you will quickly discover if you go to, say, Jen McCreight's blog and post that line about atheists being mostly old angry white men.

[okasha]

31. Actual numbers

"Surveys suggest most atheists are white men. A recent survey of 4,000 members of the Freedom from Religion Foundation found that 95 percent were white, and men comprised a majority.

Among U.S. nonbelievers, 72 percent are white and 60 percent are men, according to the 2008 American Religious Identification Survey; the U.S. Religious Landscape Survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life found that Hispanics make up 11 percent, and African-Americans just 8 percent, of “unaffiliated” Americans.

“Anytime you go to an atheist meeting, it tends to be predominantly male and white. We know that,” said Blair Scott, national affiliate director for American Atheists of helping atheism become more diverse. . ..But diversity remains elusive. As of late December, American Atheist magazine hadn’t been able to find enough black atheist writers to fill a specialBlack History Month edition for February.

In another telling sign, the Council for Secular Humanism tried in vain to present a diverse array of speakers at its four-day October conference in Los Angeles. Most of the 300 attendees were white men, as were 23 of the 26 speakers."

http://www.mysanantonio.com/default/article/Atheist-gatherings-are-mostly-white-male-944612.php
http://www.atheismresource.com

[okasha]

32. Duplicate post

Self-delete

[uberllama42]

38. You think this person is arrogant for having an opinion about his own family's potential reaction?

The artist knows nothing of the reality of the scenario he so quickly co-opts.

On the contrary, the artist here knows better than anyone else possibly could what the group of people in question would think in a given scenario. No other person could have the depth of understanding of the relationships between that person and their loved ones. We're not talking about the experience of all LGBT people and saying it is better or worse than the experience of all atheists. This person is talking about his or her own personal experience, which is otherwise completely unknown to you.

To my eye, you're the one who has no right to judge what somebody else's experience is, or what it's worth.

[okasha]

40. The artist is certainly the most knowledgeable about the reaction

of his own family. The arrogance lies in making assumptions about what the coming out experience is like for LGBT persons when he is manifestly not LGBT himself and does not share the LGBT experience. An extremely high percentage of homeless kids are LGBT who either got thrown out by their parents or were made so miserable that the street looked like a better place for them. It would be interesting to know how many have left home because of their parents' disapproval of their religion or lack of same.

The same site has an email post purportedly from a kid who's afraid to tell his atheist family he's a secret Christian and hasn't been reading the Bible just for literary purposes. Because we don't know who the posters are, it's impossible to know how much autobiographical weight these posts actually carry. What we do know is that there have been claims that atheists are the "most hated minority in America" coupled with suggestions that their experiences are equivalent to or even worse than those of the African-American community, and now the LGBT community. Two gay atheists on this thread disagree, and I'm a little puzzled why you would discount their perspective.

[MineralMan]

10. Nah. I can't see it.

While atheists are disliked by some, and misunderstood by many more, that's about it. An individual might feel this way, based on personal knowledge, but it hardly seems rational to me. More people are fearful of glbt folks than of atheists, I think, and for similar poor reasons.

[cleanhippie]

15. You should check this out, then.

http://atheism.about.com/b/2006/03/24/atheists-hated-more-than-gays-muslims-all-other-groups.htm

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistbigotryprejudice/a/AntiAtheism.htm

[rug]

18. Don't forget Spot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhVBOMbc4NI&feature=related

[dimbear]

24. It's not life threatening, it's easy enough to pass for Christian.

You can get away with it as easily as Newt Gingrich does. It's not hard to get through.








edit:brevity

[laconicsax]

25. It's easy enough to pass for straight too. n/t

[Odin2005]

28. In some parts of the country you WILL be harassed and ostracized if you are openly Atheist.

You will be shunned. In many small towns People will refuse to hire you. Your house and property will be vandalized. local government authorities will harass you, even sic the CPS on you and take your kids away.

[skepticscott]

30. Well, look at the bright side

at least they're not burning us alive for public amusement any more.