Goto a Catholic Worker House and then tell me Christians can't be Liberals

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

Go to a nursing home run by nuns. Go to a soup kitchen run by monks. Go to a hospice with a Priest.

I am really dissapointed with the way non-believing liberals have pulled out the knives on their fellow liberals who have a sense of spiritual/religious duty to be a liberal because OUR GOD was a liberal. It is the height of ignorance to act in this way.

We are on YOUR side.

Just because I pray in my heart that the Virgin Mary watch over us all when I go to a protest, or say the rosary with the intention that war end does not - DOES NOT - mean that I believe in some authoritarian dogma that would rob anyone of their freedom. And it does not mean I'm going to try and get you to believe as I do.

For the greater good of ALL please stop the Christian bashing.

[indigobusiness]

1. I don't know how it is possible to be Christian

and not be liberal...politically and otherwise.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

2. Damn straight - if you are a "true Christian" you are by definition a

liberal - you tell me that St Francis of Assissi wasn't a bleeding heart!

[indigobusiness]

9. Absolutely. Long-suffering, non-judging, and charity of spirit

are quintessentially liberal in ethos.

Conservatism is merely a philosophy of greed, selfishness, and the blaming of others. Liberal thinking could never twist Christianity into Dominionism, which is a good example of the perverse power of Conservatism.

[ChicanoPwr]

22. If you believe in Opus Dei

They will tell you St Francis was not a liberal. St Francis only help those who were willing to give up their sins. After giving up their sins then they will have to suffer pain just like St. Francis with the whole stigmata thing. Just seems like people like to put a spin on things.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

26. fascinating

[liberal N proud]

6. That is my thought exactly...

The definitions of Liberal and Liberalism point directly as Christianity:
From Webster:
Main Entry: 1lib·er·al
1 a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts <liberal education> b archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2 a : marked by generosity : OPENHANDED <a liberal giver> b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way <a liberal meal> c : AMPLE, FULL

Main Entry: lib·er·al·ism
Function: noun
1 : the quality or state of being liberal
2 a often capitalized : a movement in modern Protestantism emphasizing intellectual liberty and the spiritual and ethical content of Christianity b : a theory in economics emphasizing individual freedom from restraint and usually based on free competition, the self-regulating market, and the gold standard c : a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties d capitalized : the principles and policies of a Liberal party

[indigobusiness]

37. It is astonishing

how Conservatives can rationalize the very definition.

Thanks for posting that.

[Skidmore]

3. Chavez, I think the point that keeps getting missed is

that ALL belief systems--those which are based on a God (by any name) and those which are not--be respected. I was raised a Protestant fundamentalist and became a Methodist as an adult. I believe in a greater power--by any name. I think Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, Catholics, Moslems, practitioners of shamanism, Wiccans, etc. all believe in the same higher power. The cutural trappings which society has historically ladened that belief with get in the way. I quite often do not go to church. I was taught what was right and wrong and it's up to me to practice it. Any transgressions I have are also only between me and God and the person I have hurt. If it is a crime against society, then it becomes a matter for societal laws. In the absence of such a transgression, I believe that we are not to force others to adopt our cultural practices. The basic teaching of Christianity, as given by Jesus, was only that "You love one another as I have loved you." It is the only rule he gave. Go in peace, friend, and walk faithfully in the path you have chosen.

[indigobusiness]

12. Absolutely. I agree, but clarity of terminology and discourse

are essential before the discussion becomes mired in noise and loses all meaning.

[liberalmuse]

4. One of my very good friends...

works at Catholic Services, is Catholic and a liberal.

When my daughter was a baby many, many moons ago, my gas was shut off in the middle of winter. I didn't have any money to pay the bill, nevermind to come up with the deposit to turn it back on. I went to The Salvation Army and they couldn't help me, but Catholic Services did and my gas was turned back on. When they found out I didn't have a Christmas tree, they gave me a mini-Christmas tree with beautiful, hand-made ornaments that I still have to this day. I'll never forget that. Catholics are pretty much the only denomination of Christians I have consistently had wonderful experiences with. Many Catholics I know are very down-to-earth, fun people.

[luaneryder]

13. Another example

In heavily Southern Baptist area in TN I just moved from the Baptist churches refuse to help anyone who is not a member of their congregation. Their mantra is "we help our own". I called on the Baptist churches to help a family who lost everything in a house fire and for a senior living alone in a trailer, confined to a wheechair who needed a ramp and the first thing out of their mouths was "what church do they belong to." The newly located Catholic church was the only faith based charity that would help the needy regardless of their religious affiliation.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

28. Yet - even here- there are those who would write of the Catholic Church

because of the past.

[saltpoint]

5. Speaking just for myself...

I don't Christian-bash, because there are Christians like you and the examples you list who sacrifice for others' well-being and survival, and I honor anyone who does that.

But those qualities and virtues and sacrifices are not distinctly Christian, and in fact pre-date Christianity.

Progressive Christians need to rise against the large percentage of culture-choking fundamentalists and tell them to hit the road. A little turning of the tables would be in order. The moderate Christian voice is essentially silent in the United States right now, while the hellfire nitwit wing of your faith is colonizing the churches, schools, libraries, and so forth.

My hat's off to you, Chavez-speaks-the-truth. These extremist, anti-science, sex-negative, exclusional fundies are the folks who need bashing and I for one will keep at it.

[maumcc1]

7. The Fundamentalists have caused this backlash

I totally agree with you. I know plenty of people from the Catholic church who are wonderful. An example is the preschool that my grandson goes to. My daughter and her husband are going through a rough time right now and the church is letting my grandson still go to school paying partial pymts. They have also helped them with Christmas. I have never ever asked the Church for help and been refused. The ones I've been in contact with are wonderful people and not judgmental. I'm a liberal Christian and proud of it.

There's a fine line between right wing fundamentalists and Muslim fundamentalists. In many ways, they are so much alike. I guess that's why they want to kill each other.

[ulysses]

8. my oldest sister, who is VERY liberal,

converted to Catholicism (from the Lutheran church) a couple of years ago. Hasn't changed her political outlook. :)

There's also Fr. Roy Bourgeois of SOA Watch...

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

10. I agree with everybody that Christianity does not have exclusive rights to

call themselves liberal. I'm just seeing Christian -bashing not Buddhist-bashing or Hindu-bashing.

We all must unite under a common cause of caring for other people and protecting the planet from ourselves.

[indigobusiness]

16. Most of the bashing is directed to the force in play in American politics

that has co-opted Christianity for ulterior purposes of power. If Buddhism or Hinduism held sway in America, it would have glommed on to that, and that would be what was called into question. It is clearly not Christianity being bashed, but an aberration of it.

[saltpoint]

17. Agree totally.

[vi5]

11. I understand your point, but here is my issue....

I was raised a Catholic but now consider myself a fluctuating agnostic/atheist. My parents are still devout catholics but also devout liberals.

I can only speak from experience but my problem with liberal christians is the relative passivity with regard to their religion. Rather than finding a religion that suits their core beliefs, they attempt to justify fitting their core beliefs into a religion whose main institutional body disregards their wishes.

My issue is that my parents want to remain catholics, but not to take an active role in changing what the catholic church does and how their money and such is spent.

The example I give is the episcopal church. When the heirarchy of that church decided they would allow gay ministers, a large chunk of people who had a big problem with this decision being made for them, stood up, demanded that their voices be heard, and a dialouge ensued that whatever else happened, was an example of the members of a church taking an active role in what that church does and says. Now I disagree completely with the people who had a problem with the gay minister but I respect that their role within their religion, which is supposed to be the most important thing in their lives, was an active rather than a passive one.

So when I see my mom fuming because the leaders of her church didn't take a hard enough stance on pedophile priests, or the way her money was used to cover it up, or when she gets angry at anti-choice rhetoric from the pulpit, or when she gets anti-choice flyers and literature put on her car outside of church or handed out by people who the church allows to be there...or when she gets irate at the church's anti-gay marriage stance......all of this is frustrating to me and I have an issue with it because she still attends church every week....she still donates money to the church every week....and she doesn't actively do anything to quell these forces within the church who are taking it in a direction with which she disagrees with.

So I can't help but wonder which thing is insincere, her politics or her religion. Because if her religion is supposed to reflect her core beliefs as to how she treats her fellow man, shouldn't she make sure that it does so? If she truly believes in christianity as a liberal philosophy, isn't it imperative that she finds a church that embodies that aspect of the philosophy, rather than simply treating her religion as some kind of inert object that just because she's been going to it for 56 years that she's too lazy to either switch or to become actively involved to change?

There's a big difference I think between "christian bashing" and simply holding people accountable for the actions and words of organizations which they actively choose to belong to and to continue funding and supporting.

I hope this was civil enough but this is a subject very close to my heart and my personal life and one I struggle with with my parents on a weekly basis. I hope I made my points clear without being in attack mode or anything.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

14. Your example is valid but doesn't change what I'm saying one bit

I haven't been seeing people trying to "holding people accountable for the actions and words of organizations" I've seen all out mockery and hatred.

The example you give is your own experience - I suggest you try and encourage your parents to work for change in the church. But it is a common mistake that all parishes and priests hold the same views. My parish is run by Franciscan monks and they spoke out actively against the war. I also became a Eucharistic Minister when the whole "wihold Kerry's communion" thing was going on and was told that I must give communion to EVERYONE even if I know they just commited a sin in the paarking lot - the message being one's faith-experience is a personal relationship between them and God not between them and the Church.

[JanMichael]

19. And your examples don't change one bit what S/he is saying

The Catholic Church has abused the masses for hundreds of years; your neato examples of hospitals and your cool priest do not excuse the crap this institution has perpetuated through the ages.

Chavez...that's awesome that you are having a great experience...I sure hope people like you and your priests can change the church for the better.

But, please don't attempt to tell people like this poster...or me...how great your church is. I have seen the damage.

Stephanie

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

21. Please elaborate

[JanMichael]

23. Elaborate on what?

the history of the Catholic church? I don't understand what you are asking for.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

25. You said you "have seen the damage" - and I'm not saying you haven't

I was hoping you would elaborate on the damage.

[JanMichael]

30. Good God, Chavez

How many women have you met that have guilt over using birth control; or not using it and having ANOTHER kid? Jesus, "Large Catholic Families" are a freaking cliche around the world.

How about Ireland up to a few years ago with people who could not divorce and remarry? (yes, I was there...I realize not many people have the opportunity to head off to Ireland)

How about the illegal and horrible abortions in countries like Mexico?

How about Mother Theresa and JPII refusing to condone the use of condoms in the face of AIDS?

Dude, how much suffering needs to be in your face before you acknowledge it?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

32. Did I deny anything?

I was asking for you to speak on it because I'm interested - I don't do anything with blinders on. I want to see it all.

Don't make assumptions about me.

Seriously I want to know what you've seen.

[JanMichael]

33. I just told you

reread the post.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

34. I reread it.

Now what?

[JanMichael]

40. I guess you couldn't deduce from that post

that I have met many AIDS patients....or that I was in Ireland and met people who could not get divorced so were forced to live apart and just "date" their SO's...or that I spent time in Mexico, and saw the big families with wives who could not use birth control.

All of those are physically and emotionally damaging.

OK..so, I didn't see those things? They didn't happen personally to me so they are real to you? What?

I have never understood your posts; honestly I think that you and I have a communication problem.

[Beware the Beast Man]

42. So, if you were given the keys to the universe,

what would be your solution?

[JanMichael]

45. Socialism

if we are going to live in a global economy; then we need to have a global minimum wage.

State funded health care.

Affodable housing.

Alternative fuels. (Solar)

de-militarization--destroy ALL weapons of mass destruction.

That's a start.

What would you do?

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

46. That sounds good to me!

:thumbsup:

[Beware the Beast Man]

47. Just about the same.

But I meant in terms of religious freedom- would you find the Church to be such a threat that you would be forced to shut it down, since it is incompatible with your vision? Just a hypothetical.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

43. Its very easy - I want to know what you've seen so I can understand you.

I'm not judging you, I'm not saying you didn't see anything - I'm just saying tell me about it - I want to know. I'm not going to try and explain anything away or brush you aside - I genuinely am interested in what you have to say.

I haven't seen what you've seen - I've never met an AIDS patient for example.

Have you never understood any post of mine?

[Kathy in Cambridge]

48. Let's not forget the Vatican's complicity in the Holocaust

I'm a Catholic. I can admit my Church has a less than stellar track record. Like Chavez, I've been lucky enough to meet so great priests and nuns (my dad's best friend is a Jesuit who taught a Boston College). But I honestly can't believe how so many of my fellow liberal Catholics put blinders on when faced with the actions of the church over the centuries...

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

49. I see it and acknowledge it and I want t o move forward

[vi5]

29. But if you believe there is "one church" as you state below...

How is it then o.k. for the individual parishes to act against what the institutional body dictates?

Doing charitable works does not negate the bad this has been and is done all the time by many institutions and bodies both religious and otherwise.

So is it o.k. for my parents parish to have used their money to pay off victims of pedophile priests, because they also run a really nice food bank? Is it o.k. for them to lecture every week from the pulpit about the culture of death that is the result of abortion rights activists, while not actively speaking out on the death caused by the war?

It can't be had both ways. People can't be expected to praise the good stuff but then not be expected to hold the same organizations accountable for the evil that they do.

That's the problem. In many ways liberal christians are falling into the conservative mind frame with regard to criticism. If you raise questions about the church or it's practices or the practices of their members you are "christian bashing". So rather than being made to answer for the problems or explain why they aren't being changed within the church, all criticisms are dismissed as catholic bashing.

Nothing is ever going to get accomplished that way. I have never called catholics or christians derogatory names. I've never wished any of them harm or ill will. But when they, their institutions or their brothers and sisters in faith do harm to ANYONE and expect cover in the guise of moral relativism, then I do have an issue with that.

I can respect you, I can respect my parents, and my brother and my in-laws. But the fact is that all willingly and actively choose to belong to and contribute money to an institution which in just as many ways as they are charitable, also actively work AGAINST things which I believe in with all my might and which I fight every day against. So I refuse to just say "Oh well." If a church chooses to stay out of politics or political issues then I will take a hands off approach. But I think we both know that is clearly not the case.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

31. See - the key to what you're saying is "contribute" - I don't give money

to my Diocese - I donate to charity. Its how you contribute as much as it is how you conduct yourself in the framework of your Church. There are organizations - like Voice of the Fathful that are working for change in the Church. I am not tryingto gloss over the wrongs of the Church - its the hardest thing for my faith to work through - but I love the Church and will continue to fight for it.

[vi5]

35. And that's fair enough....Again, this isn't a discussion about...

what you do or do not do. I don't doubt for a minute that you are 100% caring, compassionate, and liberal as well as devoted to your faith. Just as my parents are.

But the idea that people are not supposed to criticize or disagree with or take to task an organization or institution that actively chooses to work against things that they believe in is ridiculous.

But when there is an institution that wants to actively work to take away a woman's right to choose, to actively deny two people who love each other the right to be married (even civilly), to deny sick people the right to research that could provide them with a cure, to lecture others on the sanctity of life, and then play a neutral, sidelines, wishy washy role in a war that is costing hundreds of thousands of lives, then I as a liberal am going to actively speak out against that institution just as I would Operation Rescue or God Hates F*gs, or the CCC or any number of similar organizations. I'm sure in their own ways in their own communities they do things that they would describe as charitable as well. And they may even have members who might consider themselves liberal. That doesn't mean I will turn a blind eye to it and not speak out against it or demand that it's more compassionate members make changes.

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

38. Please do. And I'll have your back 100%

:thumbsup:

[vi5]

41. Thanks...

:)

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

20. Als o I would point out something all liberal Catholics run up against

as Catholics we feel that there is no other Church. See - there's the reason why finding another isn't an option - we must work for change from within and there are people doing it. The Catholic Church funds so many charities it would make your head spin. We must focus on what is truly important - the help of those who are suffering.

[ChicanoPwr]

50. How do you go about doing that.

You have people like Mel Gibson who hates Vatican II and would prefer to go back to Pre-Vatican II. I wondering if you know where the Cardinals are leaning. If the next Pope is anti-Vatican II it will be hard to fix it within.

[indigobusiness]

24. It is important to distinguish between 'The Church' as an institution

and Christianity as a belief system.

They are distinct entities, and separate sets of issues.

[JerseygirlCT]

61. Couple of quick responses:

the Roman Catholic church is anything but democratic. You will not easily force change... it's rather like a huge oceanliner -- you can't turn things around quickly. So I understand the frustration and sense of futility from liberal Catholics on issues such as women's rights w/in the church. The hierarchy is currently composed of hard-right conservatives, and JPII is loading the college of cardinals with more of the same. Change won't be coming for a long, long time. (Although I do believe it will eventually come, even to the RC church!)

For me, that's why I chose to become and Episcopalian, instead. Although I have huge respect for much of the beliefs I was raised with, I couldn't attend RC churches anymore without feeling steamed and abused. That's a silly way to approach worship. Better find something close and some peace.

The Episcopal church DOES have much that's democratic about the hierarchy. The people can and do have a pretty loud voice in the church. So there's a reason to speak out -- you're likely to be heard.

One other point: religion/denomination -- that's one thing, but faith isn't necessarily the same thing. One's allegiance to a particular church or creed needn't be the most important thing about one's spiritual life. If attending RC mass every week (or day!) in spite of your misgivings about many tenets of the church brings you closer to God, then that's the place for you. I think it's really hard to judge anothers' choice in this area. Your religion is the means to an end, not the end in itself.

[Beware the Beast Man]

15. Thank you, CSTT.

:hi:

[ChavezSpeakstheTruth]

18. I'm sick and tired of lurking in the shadows watching these things go on

Damn!

[Razorback_Democrat]

27. Thank You Chavez, as a liberal Christian I'm tired of it too!

I'm an Episcopalian and a member of a very liberal Parish as a matter of fact.

I live in a very conservative community and the Church is a facet of where I can go and be around other liberals and Christians that aren't infected with the Dominionist doctrine of life.

There are in fact large numbers of liberal Christians that speak up all the time, and they fight the good fight, provide for the poor, etc.

The media doesn't report them for whatever reasons. (Run by the corporate media who is in cohoots with the neocon/dominionist/corporatist fascist empire)

But don't think for a minute that liberal Christians are really the minority.

Kerry won! Get over it!

P.S.

Will Pitt says "Kerry is getting into the fight today", but was very cryptic. See the thread on 2004 Election

Peace

[bleedingheart]

36. All the liberals I know who actually "live it" are Catholics...

I am also a Catholic...a disenchanted one but I am and will always be Catholic...

[Razorback_Democrat]

39. There are many liberal protestants that "live it" as well

open your eyes

Episcopals, Presbyterians, United Churches of Christ, Unitarians, and others all "live it" as you say as liberal Churches.

[bleedingheart]

44. I was talking about the people I know...and my eyes are open

I didn't say all liberals are catholics...did I???

I live in a predominantly Catholic area...

[trotsky]

51. Can you define what exactly is "Christian bashing"?

Because some people on here think that by merely saying, "Happy Solstice... the REAL Reason for the Season!" is bashing their faith.

[RUDUing2]

52. to me it is when it crosses from:

*I don't believe in God* to *you believe in a fairytale*.

It is when instead of saying fundamentalist christians do or believe in racism or are hypocrits, etc..it is worded as "christians"...giving the impression that it is directed at ALL christians.

It is when the statement is either made or implied that anyone who believes in God is either ignorant or stupid, and it is only atheist who are intelligent and learned.

It is when the poster refuses to show the tolerance towards christians that they are demanding of christians towards atheist.

[trotsky]

54. Well that's going to be a problem.

If someone says they believe in a giant turtle that holds up the world, I think I have the right to say they believe in a fairytale. And I don't think that's bashing a person, it's bashing their opinion. There are no doubt a few religions in the world whose adherents YOU think believe in a fairytale, aren't there? The Branch Davidians? The UFO cult? Hmmm?

Part of the problem with politics today is that the Republican party has merged its policies into a form of Christianity, and BECAUSE you aren't allowed to "bash" someone's faith, they have by extension made their policies immune from discussion. That's a bad thing.

[RUDUing2]

55. why not say...I don't believe that a giant turtle holds up the world, to

me it is just not a believable thing. Why the need to call it a fairytale? You can say you don't agree with their beliefs or that you don't find their beliefs believable w/out adding the insult of calling it a fairytale.

[trotsky]

56. I can respect your right to hold an opinion,

but I don't think I need to respect that opinion.

When hate-filled fundamentalists say that homosexuals should be executed, is it enough to just say "Well I don't believe that."?

Or are we allowed to bash that opinion and say it's a load of crap based on a certain limited reading of a book of mythology?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

59. I think that what bothers me is when a very small minority of the

DU atheists come onto threads that have to do with religious topics, not to make observations such as you mention (and, by the way, most liberal Christians would agree that the prohibitions in Leviticus are in the context of tribal purity rights and have no relevance to a modern understanding of human nature), but to say stuff like, "Well, if you're going to believe in fairy tales" or "Did your imaginary friend tell you that?" or,"Religion is the cause of all the evil in the world" or--and this phrase has become a DU cliche--"Don't stuff religion down my throat."

If you'll scroll way down in the Ask the Administrators section, you'll even find a DUer who was offended at the very idea of having discussions of religion in GD (This was before the reorganization, so there was no reason to believe that religious topics were not officially allowed.) It's as if we offend such people simply by existing.

That's not a constructive contribution to the discussion, but either adolescent taunting or playing out of personal issues that have nothing to with the subject at hand. I know that people have had fundie relatives tell them that they're going to hell or that they've been molested by a clergyman or denied help by a fundie church.

That pain is real. But to blast all religious people out of one's private pain is analogous to the Cambodian refugee who taunted a peace demonstration that I was in during the 1980s. His own pain was so intense that he made the logical leap of assuming that our call for an end to the arms race with the Soviet Union meant that we approved of the Khmer Rouge.

In fact, we're on the same side. We have the same secular goals, and for some of us, our religious beliefs and experiences with charity work are actually what brought us to a more leftist political position.

Some people are natural-born empiricists. Others are natural-born mystics. Who knows why? I've known peope from religious families who have grown up to be atheists, and people from atheist families who have become religious. Many of us are a blend of the two. I am, and I find both aspects are important to me. I'm knowledgeable about science, but I also knew exactly what was meant when I first heard of the Celtic concept of "thin places."

I don't know about other DU religious people, but except for the freeper trolls, most of them have not struck me as being stupid. We simply have a different way of looking at the world, and it's an integral part of us.

[trotsky]

60. "It's as if we offend such people simply by existing."

Welcome to life as an atheist in a de facto "Christian" nation.

I, and probably every atheist here on DU, deep down knows that most Christians here are on our side. But that doesn't ease the frustration of knowing you are the last, most hated minority in this country. That doesn't make anything said on here OK, but when religion literally is shoved in our face at work, in stores, on public property, EVERYWHERE, some folks are going to vent in a non-constructive manner. If they did so in real life, they'd be ostracized by the community. Here on DU they feel safe to say what they really think without retaliation from followers of the "Prince of Peace."

On edit: Ever seen this quote from Poppy Bush?
No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

The man who served as President of the United States doesn't think that I am a citizen.

And DU Christians have a problem with atheists making snide remarks here on DU.

[catbert836]

53. Thank you!

We're all on the same side, atheists and Christians. I don't see why people get such a big kick out of bashing other's religions.

[trotsky]

58. Try to imagine this:

Everything in the USA is virtually the same as it is now (including your current belief system), however:

* Islam is the majority faith.
* "In Allah We Trust" is on all currency, most government buildings, etc.
* "So help me Allah" is part of every oath of office or public testimony. No, you aren't required to say it, but you need to single yourself out to the majority when you decline to.
* Ramadan is a recognized federal holiday, and stores refuse to sell food during the fasting period.
* Congress opens with a Muslim prayer, and must stop every few hours to face Mecca and pray.
* Etc., etc., etc.

But even with all of that, most of the majority Muslims in the country would still think you're an OK person because at least you believed in a higher power. So it's not an entirely accurate picture of life for the non-religious in America, but pretty darn close.

So when they get a chance to vent in an anonymous setting like a message board, I'm sorry, but it's going to happen. That doesn't excuse it, but you should try to understand what living in a "Christian" society is like for the non-religious. If we even dared to mock religion in public, we'd get death threats.

[catbert836]

62. Let's see here

I don't believe the problem is Christianity. Simply put, I think it's white people. Although I am white, I think something in our mindset makes us think its okay to do terrible things, no matter what the religion. If Islam conquered Europe, it would've been the same thing, except maybe Crusades against Africa. If there wasn't a religion and all whites were atheists, there would still be something out there to compell us to do these terrible things.

[Lefty48197]

57. Amen

.