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How did "HeySoos" turn into "GeeZus"?

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Must_B_Free Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:00 PM
Original message
How did "HeySoos" turn into "GeeZus"?
That is one of the biggest problems I have with the whole believing thing....

Jesus is NOT pronounced "geezus"... And Christ was not his last name. He was not the son of "Mary and God Christ".

So did someone read it and not know spanish? Is this how he also turned white?

I might add that the long hair is consistent with Sadhus in India.

I remember in the 80s at the Christia book store in town, they gave Jesus a short perm and a short beard, kind of a Kris Kristofferson look.

I think people are getting a lot of mainstream information now about who he was and the very likelyhood that he is wholely fictituous, like a Superman type character.
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
1. Well the name is more accurately pronounced
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 09:06 PM by ET Awful
je sue a (almost as in jesuit). Jesus or Gee Zuss is a later translation from the original Aramaic.

That said, I'm not convinced of his existence nor his divinity :)

Also, one thing that is not mentioned very often is that the name Jesus (or Jesua, etc.) was fairly common at the time. In fact, the convicted murderer who was freed by Pilate at the request of the priests and in "Christ's" stead, was also named Jesus. So, when Pilate offered to free one, he was actually offering to free Jesus the Christ, or Jesus Barrabas. (Christ was actually a title, not a name).
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InvisibleBallots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:04 PM
Response to Original message
2. I might add that long hair
Edited on Thu Dec-23-04 09:05 PM by InvisibleBallots
is also consistent with ancient Hebrew Nazarite religious disciplines.

Are you suggesting that the name Jesus is from the Spanish, not a translation of a Hebrew name into Latin?
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. Joshua bar Joseph
was his moniker, I believe. Christ is a title, from Greek, I believe, and it means "Messiah".
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ET Awful Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yup, Jesua, Joshua, Jesus, Yeshuah, etc. all the same name
just varying translations.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Correct
"Jesus" is taken from the Greek form of "Joshua," or "Yeshuah" in Hebrew. I'm no Greek scholar, but I believe that the name in both Greek and Latin was pronounced "Yay-soos."

All the names that begin with "J" in the English-language Bible (Jerusalem, Joseph, Jezebel, Jacob, Jeremiah, etc.) are pronounced with a "y" in Hebrew, which has no "j" sound. The reason they're written with a "j" in most European languages is that Europeans usually first encountered these names through the Latin translation of the Bible.

In Roman times, "j" and "i" were considered the same letter, only "j" came at the beginning of a word and was pronounced "y." However, by the time people in the various European countries encountered the Latin Bible, "j" was pronounced in many ways, depending on the language: "j" in English, "zh" in French, "h" in Spanish. That's why "Jesus" starts with a "j" sound in English, a "zh" sound in French, and an "h" sound in Spanish.

By the way, "y" to "j" is not an unusual sound change. In many dialects of Spanish, "y" is pronounced "j." Just to confuse things.

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Ladyhawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #8
11. The OT Joshua was quite the genocidal maniac, eh? n/t
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:59 PM
Response to Reply #8
13. yeah, it's an easy sound shift

West Saxon and Angle-ish probably pronounced 'Jesus' like German and Church Latin still do, with a sound like the present 'y'. (I'm not sure about Dutch.) The 'oo' sound in the Spanish pronounciation is only in that language, maybe in Portuguese. French has the high 'uich' sound for the second 'u'.

The shift to pronouncing 'Jesus' with the 'dsh' (or 'dz'/'zh') sound in English probably came with the Norman conquest and massive French morpheme influences that followed- French clergy, really. The shift happened because Church Latin used to represent both sounds with 'I', and clergy had an opening for picking which way they like to read it even though it was clear that Latin, Greek, and Hebrew all say it was 'y'.
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no name no slogan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. I've heard "Yeshua bin Mariam"
As in "Jesus son of Mary", as opposed to "Jesus son of Joseph", because He was illegitimate.

The name "Jesus son of Mary" also carried a lot of "political" weight at the time, as it indicated that his sire was not known, and therefore He was a bit of an outcast. If you consider Jesus in this context, it really paints Him in a very different light.

Ah, the stuff they don't teach you in religion classes...
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LibertyLover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
15. Pretty much
Christ comes from the Greek Christos or Annointed One (if you happen to be Catholic, remember the annointing oil called chrysm used at Confirmation and Baptism). It was the closest equivalent the Greek writers of the Gospels could come to the Hebrew word Messiah which, if I'm remembering correctly means something along the lines of Chosen One.
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Astarho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #3
18. In Aramaic it would have been
Eshu bar Yosep. It was later latinized to Iesus and then to Jesus.

Christos is a little more complicated. both Christos and Messiah mean "Anointed (by God)". Although some say that Christos is a Greek translation of Khrisna, from a form of Khrishna worship introduced to the mediterranian during the empire of Alexander.
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tuvor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:06 PM
Response to Original message
4. I have no idea. Yumpin' Yiminy!
I must tell Yohnny Yohnson.
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Jou're yust a yackass yoker. (nt)
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Mills Street Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
6. If I remember correctly...
in the Bible he is not referred to frequently as "Jesus Christ", but rather "Jesus of Nazareth".
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
7. In Arabic, Farsi, Pashtun, etc., he is called ISA
...sometimes transliterated as Issa, pronounced EEEE-sah.

I have a feeling that Isa looked a lot more like Yassir Arafat at 33 than he does in all of the blond-haired, blue-eyed representations of him.
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ayeshahaqqiqa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:17 PM
Response to Original message
9. "Hay Soos"
was a character on the old TV series, "Rawhide". He was Hispanic, and of course his name should have been spelled "Jesus". But the producers were afraid that Americans would have been offended with that spelling (apparently in the '50s, Americans didn't know anything about Spanish), and so spelled the name as written in the subject line.
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SOteric Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 09:29 PM
Response to Original message
12. The original biblical writings weren't in Spanish, they were
in Aramaic and Latin. In latin, it's pronounced more like 'YAYsue.' And in Aramaic it's more like "EEEsah." Much like many words and names that survive centuries and many languages, pronounciation changes.

He is also called Emmanuel. Christ isn't a name, it's a title. It's probably more appropriate to call him 'Jesus The Christ.'
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JanMichael Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Dec-23-04 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
14. If English was good enough for Jesus it's damned well good enough for...
...ME!

<looks for lost marbles>
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catbert836 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Dec-24-04 12:38 PM
Response to Original message
17. His name is actually Yeshua
and Jesus is an Anglo corruption, just like Yahweh=Jehovah.
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Frogtutor Donating Member (739 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-25-04 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. The Spanish (being mosty Catholic) took the name of Jesus,
and then naturally applied the Spanish pronunciation to it. I'm not even sure that the Spanish language (from Latin) even existed during Jesus' time...At any rate, there are several languages in which words share the same meanings and spellings, but sound completely different because of pronunciation differences. Especially the Latin languages: Spanish, French, and Italian. English uses many of these Latin based words as well, with even more pronunciation differences.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-25-04 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
20. He wasn't Spanish or English, so Hay-soos is no mote accurate than Jesus
Y'shua is the correct according to my sourcs
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nemo137 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Dec-25-04 11:15 PM
Response to Original message
21. the same way that a Hebrew name that I'm not going to try and spell
turned into my name, Matthew. Languages mash around loanwords and names to sit on the tongue better, and the name of Christ (which, you're right, is a title, not a surname) is not exception. This is also how the most holy Hebrew name for God became the English Jehovah.
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RUDUing2 Donating Member (968 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
22. here is how...
http://jesusisajew.org/YESHUA.htm

The first letter in the name Yeshua ("Jesus") is the yod. Yod represents the "Y" sound in Hebrew. Many names in the Bible that begin with yod are mispronounced by English speakers because the yod in these names was transliterated in English Bibles with the letter "J" rather than "Y". This came about because in early English the letter "J" was pronounced the way we pronounce "Y" today. All proper names in the Old Testament were transliterated into English according to their Hebrew pronunciation, but when English pronunciation shifted to what we know today, these transliterations were not altered. Thus, such Hebrew place names as ye-ru-sha-LA-yim, ye-ri-HO, and yar-DEN have become known to us as Jerusalem, Jericho, and Jordan; and Hebrew personal names such as yo-NA, yi-SHAI, and ye-SHU-a have become known to us as Jonah, Jesse, and Jesus.

The yod is the smallest letter of the alphabet, which is why Yeshua used it in His famous saying in Matt 5:18: "Until heaven and earth pass away not one yod ("iota" in the Greek text) or one kots will pass from the Torah." For emphasis, Yeshua incorporated in this saying a well-known Hebrew expression: lo' yod ve-LO' ko-TSO shel yod, "not a yod and not a 'thorn' of a yod," i.e., not the most insignificant and unimportant thing. When Yeshua declared that heaven and earth might sooner disappear than the smallest letter of the Hebrew alphabet, or the smallest stroke of a letter, He was simply saying that the Torah ("Law" or "Teaching") of Moses would never cease to be.

The second sound in Yeshua's name is called tse-RE, and is pronounced almost like the letter "e" in the word "net". Just as the "Y" sound of the first letter is mispronounced in today's English, so too the first vowel sound in "Jesus". Before the Hebrew name "Yeshua" was transliterated into English, it was first transliterated into Greek. There was no difficulty in transliterating the tse-RE sound since the ancient Greek language had an equivalent letter which represented this sound. And there was no real difficulty in transcribing this same first vowel into English. The translators of the earliest versions of the English Bible transliterated the tse-RE in Yeshua with an "e". Unfortunately, later English speakers guessed wrongly that this "e" should be pronounced as in "me," and thus the first syllable of the English version of Yeshua came to be pronounced "Jee" instead of "Yeh". It is this pronunciation which produced such euphemistic profanities as "Gee" and "Geez"........The first sound of the second syllable of Yeshua is the "sh" sound. It is represented by the Hebrew letter shin. However Greek, like many other languages, has no "sh" sound. Instead, the closest approximation, the Greek sigma, was used when transcribing "Yeshua" as "Iesus". Translators of English versions of the New Testament transliterated the Greek transcription of a Hebrew name, instead of returning to the original Hebrew. This was doubly unfortunate, first because the "sh" sound exists in English, and second because in English the "s" sound can shift to the "z" sound, which is what happened in the case of the pronunciation of "Jesus".

The fourth sound one hears in the name Yeshua is the "u" sound, as in the word "true". Like the first three sounds, this also has come to be mispronounced but in this case it is not the fault of the translators. They transcribed this sound accurately, but English is not a phonetic language and "u" can be pronounced in more than one way. At some point the "u" in "Jesus" came to be pronounced as in "cut," and so we say "Jee-zuhs."

The "a" sound, as in the word "father," is the fifth sound in Jesus' name. It is followed by a guttural produced by contracting the lower throat muscles and retracting the tongue root- an unfamiliar task for English speakers. In an exception to the rule, the vowel sound "a" associated with the last letter "ayin" (the guttural) is pronounced before it, not after. While there is no equivalent in English or any other Indo-European language, it is somewhat similar to the last sound in the name of the composer, "Bach." In this position it is almost inaudible to the western ear. Some Israelis pronounce this last sound and some don't, depending on what part of the dispersion their families returned from. The Hebrew Language Academy, guardian of the purity of the language, has ruled that it should be sounded, and Israeli radio and television announcers are required to pronounce it correctly. There was no letter to represent them, and so these fifth and sixth sounds were dropped from the Greek transcription of "Yeshua," -the transcription from which the English "Jesus" is derived.

So where did the final "s" of "Jesus" come from? Masculine names in Greek ordinarily end with a consonant, usually with an "s" sound, and less frequently with an "n" or "r" sound. In the case of "Iesus," the Greeks added a sigma, the "s" sound, to close the word. The same is true for the names Nicodemus, Judas, Lazarus, and others.

English speakers make one further change from the original pronunciation of Jesus' name. English places the accent on "Je," rather than on "sus." For this reason, the "u" has shortened in its English pronunciation to "uh."........

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Frogtutor Donating Member (739 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-26-04 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. Awesome explanation; thanks! n/t
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eleonora Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-03-05 11:14 PM
Response to Original message
24. in fact, Jesus should have been "Joshuah"
Edited on Mon Jan-03-05 11:15 PM by eleonora
the original pronunciation is closest to the later.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-09-05 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
25. Ack!!! Names literature!
OK, some of this is a mess. Some is right.

When you borrow a word, you're stuck with the sounds of the borrowing language, on the one hand. Then you're stuck with sound changes in that language.

Joshua is actually pretty good for the Hebrew yehoshua, where English got it (apart from the modern dzh sound). English lacked a schwa at the time (at least where the 'e' is in yehoshua), and 'yho-' is a horrible start for a word. So 'yo-' it was.

Greek lacked 'sh', and wanted -s to end the word (it's a masculine name). It lacked an 'h' inside a word, and disliked the eo diphthong. Yeesus, pronounced vaguely like "yay-sus". Probably by then the /u/ was like the French /u/, and quite possibly the 'ee' had already moved to being not like "ay" but like the 'ee' in "bee". (Czech and Slovak also disliked diphthongs in their histories, and eo > ee, where 'e' is/was pronounced like in Spanish.)

Latin got the Greek spelling. By the time Latin picked up "jesus" Greek certainly pronounced the first vowel like modern English "ee". But the traditional rendering of the Greek spelling was long e: so jesus, with a macron over the 'e'.

English got the Latin pronunciation. So did pre-Spanish. Both could pronounce it as did Latin, and did so. That changed, however.

All 'g' + front vowel in Spanish > zh. All word-intial y > zh. All zh and sh (written 'x') > "h" (not English h). This happened late, 14-1500s probably: we still write "Mexico" with an x; we borrowed the name for a beverage from the Spanish city Jerez: sherry. Spanish by then had long before lost vowel length. I'm not sure about why the stress shifted: probably because of the final /s/.

English had initial y > zh in some, maybe most, instances (my English historical linguistics is barebones); we kept 'yard, ye, you', and I can't account for those. However, all zh > dzh (now written 'j'). English also had the Great Vowel Shift in the 14-1500s. That messed up our orthography: English, Spanish and Italian vowels were like Latin's (i e a o u); English altered its long vowels. "Bite" and "bit" used to be "bee-tuh" and "bit", the 'i' in bit just of lesser duration than the 'ee' in "bite". The Great vowel shift had long i > y (bite), long e > i (meet), long u > ow (house, mouse); at least some long o > u (moose) (but also "book", which specialists hadn't quite settled on the reason for as of a decade ago). It's hard to write all this without a phonetic alphabet. Anyway, the eh-like vowel in "jesus" > modern 'ee' sometime around 1500.

This was around the same time the /u/ in Jesus > schwa, since the long and short 'u' sounds weren't clearly related anymore. And probably after that the /s/ after the stressed vowel became 'z'.
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