The Five Lights Club - an essay on atheism

[lazarus]

This is not my work. I want to make sure everyone understands that right up front. I do, however, feel this essay does a wonderful job of explaining what it's like to grow up atheist.

It was posted on Usenet a long time ago by a user named "Jaffo".

I'm about to do something I swore I would never do. I'm about to write a philosophical post based on a Star Trek episode.

You remember that episode where Picard was captured by the Cardassians?

They didn't ask him any questions about Federation security or technology or anything like that. The interrogator sat him down in front of this bank of lights and asked him how many there were.

There were four lights.

Picard answered correctly. "I see four lights."

The interrogator shocked him with this torture device and corrected his mistake. "There are FIVE lights. Now, how many lights are there."

Picard paused, recognizing the game. He answered again, "I see four lights."

The interrogator shocked him again and repeated his question, "How many lights do you see?"

Picard stuck to his guns. Louder this time. "I SEE FOUR LIGHTS!"

The interrogator stormed out of the room. Picard would not get any food or water until he agreed that there were FIVE lights.

I believe our country, our culture, our whole bloody WORLD is like this interrogation room.

Consider my perspective.

I'm living in a highly Christian town, in a highly Christian state, in a very mystical world.

I have intelligence, ability, charm, and ambition. I could wrap this town around my finger if I wanted to. But first, I have to answer the question, "How many lights do you see?"

I feel like Jesus, brought high on the mountain to look down upon the Earth. The powerful men, the string-pullers, are making me an offer. "You can have whatever you want. We'll give you fame and power nd money and love and everything else men crave. All you have to do is tell us how many lights you see."

I know what answer they want. But I can't give it to them. The answer they want is the WRONG answer.

But who am I to decide what the right answer is? I'm just one man. Fragile and scared and alone. Besides, these guys have been counting lights for 40 years. I just started counting three years ago.
Maybe there really ARE five lights. Maybe I'm just being stubborn. Maybe my dad is right. I've been told there are five lights all my life. Maybe I'm just REBELLING. Maybe I'll "grow out of it."

I hear the old ones talk sometimes. I tell them how many lights I see and they look down on me and they pat my head. They say, "When I was your age, I only saw four lights. But when you get to be MY age -- when you get a little more EXPERIENCE, you'll realize that there were five lights, all along."

I met a pretty girl yesterday. She was smart and funny and talking to her made me feel happy inside. I didn't want to ask the question. I tried not to ask. I tried to forget there even WAS a question. I tried to top caring about the answer.

But finally, I couldn't stand it anymore. I asked her, "How many lights do you see?"

She smiled at me in that familiar way and said, "There are five lights, of course. What a silly question!"

I asked my Grandmother about it. Tactfully, of course. I asked her, "Grandma, have you ever considered the possibility, just the POSSIBILITY, that there are only four lights?"

Grandma got very angry. She said it was evil to say things like that. She said bad things happen to people who don't see five lights. She told me about Uncle Charlie and Aunt Sue. Uncle Charlie and Aunt Sue said there were only four lights, but they did lots of drugs and they beat their kids and they didn't even celebrate CHRISTMAS, for God's sake!

She said my mother saw five lights and she wanted me to see five lights, and if she wasn't dead already, hearing that I only saw four lights would kill her.

She said I might as well go to my mother's grave and spit on it, talking about four lights that way.

I loved my mother, and I miss her, and I wouldn't want to make her angry or sad. But no matter how hard I squint and stare and rub my eyes, all I ever see is four lights.

When I was really little they took me to this pretty house and asked me how many lights I saw. I was very young, and I wanted to make my parents happy, so I said I saw five lights. They held me under the water for a little while and when I came up, they said I could be in the five-lights club.

At first, it was fun being in the five-lights club. Talking about the five lights made my parents very happy. I got to play with the other children and sing songs and once I made a little house out of popsicle sticks.

But as I got older, I started to worry. Everybody around me got so happy when I talked about the five lights, I started to feel guilty about it. I felt guilty about lying.

I was a good speaker, and I knew lots of big words. My parents said I should devote my life to talking about the five lights. I didn't really say anything when the subject came up. I just smiled and changed the subject.

Finally, after I was all grown up, I decided to stop lying. I decided to tell everyone that I only saw four lights -- to apologize for lying all this time.

Some of the people I told got angry. Some of them got sad. And some of them said it was "just a phase" I was going through.

I told my friends about it. Friends so close they were like brothers. Closer than any real family I ever had. We all agreed on the number of lights while we were growing up, but we never really talked about it.

It wasn't something you really TALKED about, when you were a kid. You just accepted it as fact. There were five lights. Everybody around you saw five lights and they taught you to see five lights, and that's how many there were, until the day you died.

You could talk about what color they were or how bright they were, but the number never changed. There were FIVE lights, dammit, and bad things happen to people who only see four!

I told my friends how many lights I saw. I knew it would shock them but I knew they loved me. I knew they would accept my belief, even if they didn't share it.

I was surprised when they started asking me questions:

"How do you KNOW how many lights there are?"
"Are you SURE there are only four lights?"
"Millions of people see five lights, who are YOU to only see four?"
"The fifth light is invisible, but you're supposed to see it anyway!"
"We're not wrong, your eyes are wrong!"

They were still my friends. They still loved me. But now there was something wrong. Even when we're not talking about the lights, I can tell they're thinking about them.

They don't just see ME when they look at me anymore. They see the guy who only sees four lights.

They keep their distance sometimes. They were told that bad things happen to people like me. They're afraid that if they get too close, bad things will happen to them, too.

I haven't told my Grandma yet. I haven't talked to her in a long time. I'm afraid to talk to her, because I know that if we talk, she's going to ask me the question.

I've lied to her for 20 years, but I'm not going to lie anymore. If she asks me how many lights I see, I'm going to tell her the truth.
After I tell her the truth, a lot of people are going to be worried about me. Some of them are going to hate me. I don't know which part bothers me more -- the hate or the worry.

I'd rather have people hate me than worry about me. I'm funny that way.

Before I go, I want to ask you a question.

You don't have to answer right away. You don't even have to say it out loud. Later tonight, when the doors are all locked and the lights are out and there's no one around to hear you or hate you or worry about you, take a moment and ask yourself -- honestly --

How many lights do you see?

Edited to clarify where the essay begins and ends.

[darkmaestro019]

1. I clicked this hoping that I was right about the reference.

Thank you for this beautiful post.

[localroger]

2. While this is well done...

...I have to point out that long before Star Trek did this to Picard, George Orwell did it to Winston in 1984. Of course that one ended a bit differently...

[lazarus]

3. true

He was just using the Picard example as a starting point, something one can easily build an essay on. :hi:

[thinkingwoman]

4. This also describes what it is like

to grow up with ANY spiritual belief other than xtianity in America.

You do realize, don't you, that atheists are not experiencing something unique in America? EVERY religion, EVERY spiritual belief system other than Xtianity is going through the same thing.

Finally, do you realize that only the fanatical xtians want a theocracy and are responsible for the heavy xtian god references in our culture (on our money, in the pledge, in every campaign speech, etc.)?

[lazarus]

6. Hmm

"You do realize, don't you, that atheists are not experiencing something unique in America? EVERY religion, EVERY spiritual belief system other than Xtianity is going through the same thing."

Actually, every single person in the world is undergoing a unique experience all their own. Does this mean that atheists can't discuss the issues they go through?

"Finally, do you realize that only the fanatical xtians want a theocracy and are responsible for the heavy xtian god references in our culture (on our money, in the pledge, in every campaign speech, etc.)?"

Yes. Is there anything in that essay that indicates otherwise?

[thinkingwoman]

7. Nothing in my post

suggested that atheists "can't discuss the issues they go through."

I was genuinely asking if you comprehend that what this essay describes is an exerience shared by all who are not fundie xtian in America, and not unique to atheists.

I got my answer. Thank you.

[lazarus]

54. You're welcome

I hope you got the right answer.

[trotsky]

8. Actually, the atheist experience is unique in certain ways.

I was part of a discussion with coworkers shortly after 9/11. The topic veered off into religion as it related to the extremists who piloted the planes. One person said, "Well, at least they believed in SOMETHING, it's not like they were atheists." As if being an atheist is worse than flying a plane into a building and killing thousands.

That's what's different. I have heard and felt this sentiment shared by many people. I think it makes many believers highly uncomfortable to think that you have no supernatural "check" on your behavior, that as long as you believe in SOME sort of god or karma or something, you can be a contributing and helpful member of society. But not atheists, we're pure evil.

Other religions certainly don't experience that.

[thinkingwoman]

9. Pagans do

They are absolutely reviled.

[trotsky]

10. I'll have take your word for it.

But having encountered the, "well at least they believe in something" attitude more than once, I'll still say there is a special kind of discrimination that only atheists face.

[thinkingwoman]

12. See, that's just it

Not all pagans believe in "something"...and there are plenty of xtians who think it's better to believe in nothing at all than to "worship the devil" which they are SURE that all pagans do (even though the devil is strictly a xtian thing). :eyes:

I have pursued this thought in this thread for a reason--because I think that much, if not everything, that atheists are railing against touches a cord with all religious/spiritual minorities in this country (and indeed around much of the world).

In the end, does it really matter to you if a bunch of people believe in Santa and Heaven if they're not forcing you to see 5 lights? Isn't it the forcing of their belief system on you that is causing the problem?

If so, then I suggest that atheists should be working WITH all other spiritual minorities that share a commitment to a secular society. And the first step toward working WITH somebody is to stop alienating them.

I don't see 5 lights. I definitely see 4. And I am damn sick and tired of living in a society that excludes me if I don't pretend to see 5. I think we have a LOT in common. What do you think?

[trotsky]

13. I didn't say that we didn't have a lot in common.

We most certainly do, as do all non-Christians in a predominantly Christian society.

I was just commenting that from my experience, the hostility people show towards atheism is stronger than that towards other religions.

That's all.

[thinkingwoman]

14. My experience is quite different

In my experience nothing trumps the hostility shown toward pagans.

There aren't a lot of stories about atheists being burned at the stake in America or drowned or pressed or anything else.

But this is not a pissing contest. My point in this thread is to see if any DU atheists are open minded enough to acknowledge that their problems with the xtian minority are not unique and whether they want to work with others to overcome those obstacles and form a truly secular society.


So far, no takers.

In a truly secular society, religion, spirituality, or lack there of would be completely personal matters. Nobody would be actively attempting to coerce or convert anyone else and all would be respectful of others.

[beam me up scottie]

16. what you're experiencing in this forum is not that DU atheists aren't

"open minded enough to acknowledge that their problems with the xtian minority are not unique and whether they want to work with others to overcome those obstacles and form a truly secular society".

We have always acknowledged that non christians are also subject to discrimination and harassment in this country.

What you're witnessing, in MY experience, is our reaction to your attitude and the arrogance of your posts.

[thinkingwoman]

22. what arrogance?

Just because you don't like something I post, hardly means it is "arrogant."

[beam me up scottie]

34. Aren't you going to alert on me?

C'mon!

You do it for all the others!

:rofl:

[trotsky]

18. I think every "religion"'s experiences with Christianity are unique.

If you're a Jew, many Christians still look at you as a Christ-killer.

If you're a Muslim, you're a terrorist.

If you're a Pagan, you're an active Satan worshipper.

If you're an atheist, you're just plain evil.

Yes, all other "religions" suffer when Christianity reigns supreme. I've never seen an atheist on DU claim otherwise. So I really don't understand your "no takers" comment. I'm just offering up my personal experience that being an atheist isn't quite like being a member of another religion - we have our own little group of stereotypes some Christians like to throw at us.

Heck, if you DON'T think the atheist experience is unique, why did you find it "funny" on a previous thread that atheists post in the Religion/Theology forum?

[thinkingwoman]

24. Have you read the rules for this site?

Bringing in stuff from other threads is against the rules.

Do it again and I'll hit alert and put you on ignore. Nobody is forcing you to talk to me.

[trotsky]

27. Nope, nobody is.

But I am trying to help you see things from someone else's point of view because as a liberal, I think that's important.

[thinkingwoman]

31. You first.

Go ahead. Lead by example.

Disagreeing with you doesn't make me less of a liberal, and I'm getting more than a little tired of closed-minded people lecturing me about being open-minded.

It used to be funny. Now it's just tiresome.

[trotsky]

35. Well, I think I've already acknowledged that all non-Christians

have it tough in a society dominated by Christians. Isn't that what you were trying to say?

I'm saying that from what I've seen, the atheist experience is unique since many Christians judge us differently because at least other religious people believe in something.

I don't think that disagreeing doesn't make you a liberal, but bashing someone for presenting their point of view doesn't fit very well.

If you're tired of me, then please put me on Ignore too.

[thinkingwoman]

39. I don't like to use the ignore feature

It actually took me a couple of minutes to find it with new icons, but I did manage.

Honestly, I normally stop responding when I'm tired of talking with someone.

Please show an example of my "bashing" you, because I honestly do not think I have done so.

As for believing in "something" however...if you are willing, let's discuss that. What exactly does believing in "something" mean?

For example, I do not believe in or worship any gods or goddesses...no grey haired old men in the sky, no pretty ladies rising out of the sea, none of it.

I don't believe I need to be saved or sanctified. I don't believe I have to do or say anything special to get an afterlife or simply to get through the day. I just don't believe in ANY of that stuff.

edited to correct typo (carpal tunnel is really acting up today)

[trotsky]

40. Well then, why don't you consider yourself an atheist?

If you "don't believe in ANY of that stuff"?

What, in your mind, sets you apart from atheists?

[thinkingwoman]

43. thank you for asking

I don't consider myself an atheist because I do believe that living creatures contain a "spirit," or a "spark," (for lack of better words) beyond flesh and digestion. And I do believe that spark continues or transforms or whatever after death. I don't think it just ends.

I don't believe in anything resembling a heaven or hell, however.

[trotsky]

45. That doesn't answer the question.

Plenty of atheists think that there is something that might survive the body upon death.

You are an atheist if you answer the question, "Do you believe in any gods?" with "No."

So, do you?

[thinkingwoman]

47. Well hell

now you're going to go and fuck up my entire paradigm! :sarcasm:

The answer is No. I do not believe in any gods.

Forgive my apparent ignorance, but every atheist I've talked with has told me in no uncertain terms that dead means dead and that believing there is something beyond is the same as believing in Santa.

Are you seriously telling me that is not the case?

[trotsky]

48. Seriously.

This is a nice article, part of a series.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/paul_obrien/gentle/atheism11.html

First of all, atheism does not preclude the belief that there is no afterlife. An atheist is free to reject God and yet support some form of afterlife or another. Like I said before, this is part of the flexibility atheism provides.

[thinkingwoman]

49. I hope you're happy with yourself.

cause now brain hurts and I'm going to have to go read and think about all that.

If what you're saying is true, then atheism and what some refer to as basic paganism (minus any gods and goddesses) are essentially the same thing.

Can I smack the atheists who steered me wrong? :evilgrin:

Ok, I'm going to go read and get some work done. I appreciate you sticking with this conversation until we started communicating. You've given me a lot to think about.

edited to remove extra word. :eyes:

[trotsky]

52. The feeling's mutual.

Feels good to have a breakthrough. Atheism rocks, there are no rules. Believe what you want, there's no dogma to contradict or commandments to break.

[The Magistrate]

53. A Pleasant Resolution, Comrades

Good for the both of you.

"LET'S GO GET THOSE BUSH BASTARDS!"

[thinkingwoman]

55. It just goes to show

that if people keep talking long enough they can sometimes find common ground in unexpected places. :hi:

[Zhade]

68. I know I'm outside the conversation, but I'd like to add: good job.

It's great when there's a new insight found, eh?

[thinkingwoman]

78. Thank you, yes..

I was delighted to learn something new about atheism, and I'm still mulling it over.

[Zhade]

67. That has nothing to do with atheism.

Atheism applies to the belief in gods/goddesses, period.

I've known atheists who believe exactly as you do. You essentially fit the definition of an atheist, though whatever you want to call yourself is of course up to you.

[thinkingwoman]

81. I'm glad

to have learned that. And I appreciate you and trotsky pointing it out to me.

[Zhade]

95. Please believe me when I say that I appreciate...

...your willingness to consider new information.

[beam me up scottie]

82. Actually,

the poster has said before she believes in gods and goddesses.

So unless she has renounced them, she doesn't fit the definition.

[Zhade]

96. Oh, I thought I read elsewhere in the thread that she doesn't.

NT!

[Zhade]

65. The "no takers" comment = red herring straw man.

NT!

[thinkingwoman]

79. It was flippant

but it was reflective of what was happening in this thread at the time I posted it. At that time all I was receiving was flak--no actual dialogue.

That changed.

[lazarus]

50. nobody else has been burned at the stake

in the US, either. And let's not forget that atheists were in the camps with the Jews, the gypsies, the gays, etc., in Germany. And that most atheists throughout history have hidden their atheism because we know how bad it is.

But you don't seem to have read this thread AT ALL, since there have already been atheists who said that others have problems with the xtian community. I went further and said that each and every one of us has our own unique experience. This essay is simply sharing the experience of the atheist. Go find or write an essay about the experience of the pagan, and I'll chime in with support.

But not a damned thing in that essay was exclusionary, or said that only atheists suffer this.

[thinkingwoman]

84. You're right, drowning and hanging

are much better ways to die, and much less inflammatory than burning at the stake (pun intended).

[Zhade]

66. Your experience does not trump another's experience.

I think the insistence on the "pagans are oh so persecuted against" meme, which has the air of a slight persecution complex, might be where we see the arrogance.

Just because your experiences are different than trotsky's in no way qualifies your experiences to be more reflective of the reality being discussed than his experiences.

[thinkingwoman]

76. Actually, I wasn't saying it did

I was using it as a specific example to persistently point out that the atheistic experience being put forth as unique is not unique.

I still believe that is an important point to make and continue to make, because the "atheists are oh so persecuted against" meme is turning off non-atheists and creating animosity where there need be none.

The "oh so persecuted against" meme is actually one that I have repeatedly bumped into from atheist's threads here at DU (particularly in the past week). Pointing it out with one persistent example is not arrogant, and it does not transfer the persecution complex to the messenger.

In fact, in one post to trotsky I point out that I believe his experience but that mine was different. That in no way implies that I believe mine is "more reflective of reality". But since my experience does exist, it deserves equal footing.

Let me be crystal clear in this: I absolutely think all of us non-xtians in America suffer from varying degrees of persecution. Absolutely the xtian majority rams their religion down our throats on a daily basis, and anyone who thinks we have the same rights and opportunities in this nation is blind. Obviously, we non-xtians don't win many elections and no non-xtians get to be President or sit on the Supreme Court. The discrimination is blatant. But it is shared relatively equally by all non-xtians.

[beam me up scottie]

11. That is the reason why so many atheists pretend to be pagans or

buddhists or wiccans.

They know that they will be accepted as long as they subscribe to some sort of belief system.

To believers there is nothing so alien as a non-believer.

[thinkingwoman]

15. that really is not the experience

of any pagans I have known.

And why oh why would an atheist pretend to be a member of a minority religion? If an atheist is going to be a poser in order to "pass" in society, why not pose as xtian and reap all the benefits?

It's not logical to pose as another minority. I have a hard time believing that frankly.

[beam me up scottie]

17. You have a hard time with a lot of things.

And since you seem to be ineducable, I won't waste my time.

[thinkingwoman]

20. You do know the rules of this site, right?

It is against the rules to bring up stuff from other threads.

If you do so again, I will alert and put you on ignore. Nobody is forcing you to converse with me.

[beam me up scottie]

32. Really? Show me where I did that.

Reading comprehension can be tricky.

[trotsky]

19. A comment

Sorry to interject, but you said:

If an atheist is going to be a poser in order to "pass" in society, why not pose as xtian and reap all the benefits?

Because, as I've been trying to tell you, from what I've seen in my life, judgmental Christians are more willing to accept someone that believes SOME kind of religion than they are an atheist.

I myself have claimed to be a Quaker, a Wiccan, and a Buddhist at different times (depending on the crowd) rather than face an immediate hostile attitude simply because I don't believe in any of it.

[thinkingwoman]

21. So you say

and I believe you when you claim to have experienced that.

But that is not what I have experienced, and therefore I disagree with your blanket statement that being an atheist is harder than anything else.

Nevertheless, the logic of picking another minority religion when trying to pass is nonexistant. If somebody is willing to compromise their integrity by pretending to be something they are not, then the most logical course of action is to pretend to be the majority.

edited to correct 2 typos

[trotsky]

23. Well, fortunately I never made that blanket statement, now did I?

I said it was UNIQUE. (See Post #8 for reference.)

Sheesh.

[thinkingwoman]

26. Also in post #8, you said...

"That's what's different. I have heard and felt this sentiment shared by many people. I think it makes many believers highly uncomfortable to think that you have no supernatural "check" on your behavior, that as long as you believe in SOME sort of god or karma or something, you can be a contributing and helpful member of society. But not atheists, we're pure evil."

"Pure evil" isn't worse than anything else?

Ok, sure.

[trotsky]

29. From the Christian's perspective, yes.

Sheesh, I really don't understand where this hostility and arrogance is coming from.

[thinkingwoman]

37. Please show examples of arrogance

I'm not feeling it, and would welcome the opportunity to remove it from postings if it is truly there.

I do not feel hostility towards you either. Perhaps I should insert this smilie into my posts more often :eyes: since I will readily admit that I find your condescending tone annoying.

Now, the meat of the post...yes, from the xtian perspective...that's what we're discussing isn't it? Aren't you saying that there is nothing worse than being an atheist from the xtian perspective and that is why the atheist experience is unique?

That is the very point I am disagreeing with. So if that is not the point you are making, please explain.

[trotsky]

38. *shrug*

Others have commented on your tone, I know I'm not the only one.

I've given my opinion, you disagree, and that will have to be it. Further discussion is obviously only going to make you more angry.

[thinkingwoman]

41. I do not feel angry

and apparently you could not find any examples to support your claim.

"Others have commented" sounds a little Faux-newsish to me.

I'm find ending the discussion however. Have a nice day.

[beam me up scottie]

25. "Logical" ?

:spray:
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA !

That's rich coming from someone who posted this:

The 1st law of thermodynamics led to my belief in an afterlife...

"Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed."

The essence of "me" even as you describe it, is energy. It cannot be destroyed. It does not "stop."

It changes. To what? Hmmm. Don't know. But it goes on, hence, an afterlife--one based on natural theory, no less, with no god needed.

and then proceeded to argue and insult posters who were much more knowledgeable when they disagreed.

[thinkingwoman]

28. Alerted, and ignored. nt.

[beam me up scottie]

30. Did you read the rules?

Do not say that you are hitting the alert link to report another member. You are permitted to tell someone that you are adding them to your ignore list, provided that you actually do so.

[thinkingwoman]

33. Well then I apologize

which is certainly more than you have done.

And I'll have you on ignore as soon as I figure out how to do it.

Have a nice life.

[beam me up scottie]

36. Oh great. This could take a while.

:rofl:

[funflower]

58. I have no problem with atheists or pagans. I have a problem with jerks.

Rest assured that ALL of your religions/nonreligions are hated. You are all oppressed, persecuted sufferers with one foot in a concentration camp and the other tied to a stake and about to be set on fire by a mob of fundy inquisitors.

:eyes:

Sheesh! Have a little class, people.

:spank:

[beam me up scottie]

62. I have a problem with whiny believers who suffer from Atheism Envy.

Sue me.
:eyes:

[funflower]

70. Whiny, maybe, but not a believer.

And not a believer in persecution complexes or bad manners.

[beam me up scottie]

71. Went right over your head, didn't it?

Perhaps next time you should make sure you know what you're talking about before you start accusing other posters.

I have no time for silly little wanna be's and their tantrums.

[funflower]

73. Gave it what it was worth.

I don't pretend to know why you're consistently rude. You seem very angry.

[beam me up scottie]

75. I'm not rude nor angry to coherent posters.

If you want to know why this particular poster seems to think they are a "victim" of DU atheists, do some work.

Until then, save your naive condemnation for someone else.

[funflower]

85. Incoherency is not an excuse for rudeness.

Further, I'm not addressing any particular poster's "victim" mentality. I'm annoyed by your consistent rudeness in a variety of settings. You seem to believe you are entitled to treat people as your inferiors. There is simply no excuse for that.

[beam me up scottie]

86. You seem to believe I give a shit.

I'm annoyed by your consistent boohooing over imagined slights.

Since you seem to be traumatized by my posts, put me on ignore or get off my back.

Even better, do both.

[funflower]

87. That's a funny one, coming from Mr. Victim.

[beam me up scottie]

88. Like I said, get off my back.

I have better things to do than swat at mosquitoes.

[funflower]

89. Apparently not.

[beam me up scottie]

91. You're obviously obsessed with me.

What's next, stalking?

Get over it.

[funflower]

93. Oh. That explains it. I'm deranged.

[beam me up scottie]

94. That's one possibility but I don't know you well enough to say for sure.

All I have to go on is how you've obsessed over me in this thread.

It's flattering, really.

[funflower]

99. You wish....

;)

[hunter]

100. May I have this dance?

I mean before this delightful thread gets locked...

[funflower]

101. Please! Join the brawl! It could be fun!

Actually, this was a rather pleasant thread at one time.

[The Magistrate]

42. Placing One Another On Ignore Would Be An Excellent Idea, Ma'am

It is the icon with a red x, I believe, at the top of a person's post.

[thinkingwoman]

44. Thank you, I finally found it.

I wasn't used to the new icons and had a brain freeze.

[Zhade]

64. Of course, atheism is not a religion or spiritual belief system.

So yes, it's markedly different - not that your past posts indicate you care about that difference.

Still, your inaccurate statement needed to be corrected.

[thinkingwoman]

77. What inaccurate statement?

I did not state that atheism was a religion or spiritual belief system.

As for not caring about the difference...that's a feeling you are putting on me, not one that I am feeling. Focusing on similarities does not indicate an unawareness or indifference to other facts.

[NAO]

5. Why it's VERY hard to quit the Five Lights Club

Ok, I was raised in the Five Lights Club. It's VERY hard to leave the Club, even after you are pretty sure you SEE only four lights.

The reason it is so difficult to leave is that before you are old enough for your vision to develop to the point where you can distinguish that there are only four lights, you are warned about the trickery of the Enemy.

You are told that there is an invisible enemy who wants to destroy your soul, and that he is VERY clever; that he will appeal to your PRIDE; that he will try to use your INTELLECT; that he will do anything and everything to make you think you see only four lights. You are even told that while IN REALITY there are ACTUALLY five lights, human senses and human reason have been corrupted by sin and are only able to apprehend four lights. But that fifth light is THERE, and if you deny it is there, you will be damned to suffer FOREVER.

Yes, the natural four lighters may complain that they are constantly cajoled into believing that there are five lights, and endure all manner of hardship in the present. But those in the five lights club are told that if they deny the fifth light, they will suffer REAL TORTURE FOREVER. Yes, the torturer will artificially extend their life so they can endure more torture. How long will your life be extended so you can endure more torture? Ten years? Ten Thousand years? Ten Million Years? Ten Billion years? No, FOREVER. Once you say you only see four lights, that is it, they tell you, you will suffer intense physical pain forever.

Here is a little diddy, to the tune of "Amazing Grace", that I was taught as a child as a way to help me comprehend how long I would be tortured if I allowed myself to be tricked into believing that there were only four lights:

"When we've been there ten million years
Burning body, limb and tongue,
We'll have no less years to scream in tears
Than when we first begun."


So you are taught to EXPECT the trickery or the illusion or the doubt or the suspicion that there may be only four lights - but be prepared for it, because it is a TRICK! Anything that makes sense that seems to argue that there are four lights is seen as sophistry. You can't be fooled by (human, sin-tainted) rational sounding arguments, or even the evidence of your (human, sin-tainted) senses. You have the TRUTH.

That is why many people NEVER admit they only see four lights, and why so many people tightly shut their eyes and refuse to even TAKE A LOOK and see how many lights there are.

Can you blame them?

[thinkingwoman]

46. This is a really good post

I think you sum up perfectly what many people feel and struggle with as they try to leave the religion they were brought up in and that permeates every aspect of society.

[lazarus]

51. great post

The canalization that takes place as a child can be extraordinarily difficult to overcome; this is why religion tries to infiltrate the schools whenever possible. Brainwashing is easy on the young.

[funflower]

59. Excellent, NAO.

:yourock:

You're taught to distrust your intellect and intellectualism in general, which, of course, is the very thing you need to use to see the truth about the lights.

[hunter]

56. Once you put your faith in a Just God none of this matters.

Certainly none of it matters if you are an atheist.

A Just God won't be there at the end of all days shoveling children into the hellfire with His Holy Pitchfork just because they got Baptized wrong, or didn't get Baptized at all, or uttered some blasphemy in a moment of passion, or got married a few times, or even married someone of the same sex.

We are all God's Children. What sort of demon father would torture his children in life and then dispatch them to eternal damnation as they died? What sort of arrogance does it take to believe that a human being could be anything more than a child in the face of an omnipotent being?

And in the case of the atheist, what sort of arrogance does it take to believe one understands even a small fraction of the Universe's workings? There is always room for some sort of spirituality, or humanity, which is not the "fifth light" of the original post, but the acceptence that there are many things we have only glimpsed, and many things that are entirely unseen.

My mom talks to God. I don't mean she prays (she does that too) I mean she has this ongoing conversation with God. Sometimes she argues with Him. She has probably worn out a dozen Bibles in her life.

My dad and I have a more casual relationship with God. "Hi God, how's it going? How about we go fishing Sunday?"

In our extended family we have some fundamentalists. My mom is not one of them. She speaks her opinion, the fundamentalists get very disturbed, and they soon learn to keep their own opinions to themselves, lest they end up absorbing any of my mom's many anxieties about religion.

My fundamentalist relatives used to send me those inane Christian emails, the sorts that are supposed to inspire you, but they stopped once they learned I'd minored in Evolutionary Biology, practiced it as a hobby, and had a great fondness for quoting Ezekial.

My sister absolutely hates those emails, and she is also an atheist. So one day she wrote a huge atheist rant, and blasted it back at the fundamentalists, "Reply All." They were all horrified, and removed her from their lists, and are probably still praying for her soul today.

But my mom forwarded me my sister's rant, cheerfully noting that my sister seems to have a greater appreciation for God's Creation and the human condition than many Christians.

Hmmm, so how many lights do you see?

I think it's silly to argue about a metaphor. I've seen both atheists and theists bringing their lights into very dark places.

[lazarus]

57. arrogance?

"And in the case of the atheist, what sort of arrogance does it take to believe one understands even a small fraction of the Universe's workings?"

It's not arrogance, it's humility. Atheists know we don't understand the universe. So we prefer to stick to reality, avoiding complicating issues with believing things that have no evidence.

What sort of arrogance does it take to believe that an entity that created the universe cares about you personally? ("You" being rhetorical, not addressed specifically at you.)

[trotsky]

61. Great point.

Seems to me that believing the entire universe was created just to have a few of us hairless apes play out our complete history in the blink of a cosmic eye is the HEIGHT of arrogance.

[Zhade]

69. Calling our unwillingness to accept unproven things "arrogance"...

...is quite Orwellian.

[hunter]

72. Every morning you get out of bed you accept many unproven things...

Otherwise there is little point in getting out of bed, or even in living. No single human could ever come close to proving everything for themselves, or even just a few of the things that are important in their own lives.

For example, in my studies of evolution I've examined at a lot of evolutionary branches, but mostly I take it on faith that other people studying evolution see the same general patterns I do, and that they are not simply making evidence up. The larger picture I get from my faith in these other people is that evolution is a very solid science. In fact it's quite possible we have better explanations for evolution than we have explanations for gravity.

I would never say that all unproven things are of a religious or spiritual nature, but spiritual questions cannot always be avoided. Think of it this way: Imagine you could see the future with perfect clarity, especially your own life in full detail right down to the very end, the very moment of your death. Do you think you would want to change some things? There's a mystery in that, the faith that there will be something good and worthwhile in your future, and that you will always enjoy the free will to seek it.

My essay was not a rant against atheism. But I do believe many atheists are atheists because, as was said by lazurus in his response, it is a way of "avoiding complicating issues." In engineering and science, two fields of human endeavor I have great experience with, you really do want to avoid these sorts of comlicating issues. Prayers don't hold up the Golden Gate Bridge; steel and concrete do. The government would be remiss to hire "prayer teams" to hold the bridge up, especially if they cut the budgets of the maintainence engineers to do it. For much the same reason it is wrong to have religion taught in public schools. It takes away from what we are trying to do there, and puts children who do not participate in the prevalent religion in very difficult positions.

If you've ever seen some of my other writings on DU you will know I am a fierce defender of the legal separation of church and state. I also believe Creationism as it is usually taught is a symptom of ignorance put forth by people who probably fear they are apes, and don't want to acknowledge that. Let's be straight. We are apes. I have also said here on DU that many of the people who are pushing "Intelligent Design" into the classroom seem to worship a "cockroach god" who does miracles in the dark, and then scuries away whenever anyone turns on the lights; this is similar to the "god of the gaps" that other less inflamatory people describe.

Okay, I'm still a Christian, which may suprise you, and I write about that here too. Maybe Christianity is an absurd thing, especially to an atheist. But I understand the absurdity -- Christianity is an unproven belief system that many very ignorant and sometime violent people profess. And I can very well imagine how I might have become an atheist, especially if my parents had dragged my young butt off to some anti-intellectual church for a few hours every Sunday where they told me that Jesus was a republican who voted for Bush who supports the war in Iraq, so give us money, or God will drown you like he drowned in Noah's flood all the people who rode dinosaurs. I never got dragged to such a church.

As a Christian I believe in things that are obviously unprovable to you, but that shouldn't be a sticking point in our conversations. Maybe Jesus was an exceptionally nice guy who didn't know who his biological father was, and Mary just told everyone "God did it." See I can step across your line, and you can step across mine. I'm looking for a reasonable exchange of ideas, an intellectual disscussion. Thus it is not "Orwellian" for me to describe some atheist's unwillingness to accept many unproven things as "arrogance." On my side I'm not forcing you to "love big brother," not even some supposedly good hearted big brother named Jesus. Especially I'm not forcing you to "see the five lights." I'm simply describing how an atheist's claims that certain things can be "proven" is a simple black-and-white kind of arrogance of a sort that provokes needless and unproductive arguments.

[thinkingwoman]

80. I wish there were more

xtians like you. Actually, more accurately, I wish the xtians like you were the ones speaking out more loudly in public.

Great post.

[funflower]

90. I think I disagree with your beliefs, but I respect your open-mindedness.

(snip) I'm looking for a reasonable exchange of ideas, an intellectual disscussion. (snip)

That's the core of the matter. THANKS!

[beam me up scottie]

63. "Arrogance" is posting statements like yours

when you obviously know nothing about atheists.

[catbert836]

60. What number of lights we see is subjective.

Most here in America see five lights. Some of us see four lights. Over in Asia, they might see eight lights. In Africa, they could see ten lights. In the Middle East, they might see three lights. Some see two lights. Others don't see any lights at all. I see constantly changing numbers of lights. However, in America, it doesn't really matter how many lights you see, only if the number of lights is five or not. And if your number of lights is not five, then you are a heretic and will burn in hell forever.
Thank you for the wonderful post.

[hunter]

74. People who tell me I'll burn in hell forever are full of shit.

God told me so!

If you don't believe in God, then hunter told you so.

:evilgrin:

You know these fools wouldn't be so brave if more of us smacked them down.

Go put a Darwin fish on your car or something.

[catbert836]

83. I already have one

But thanks for the advice. I'll remember it.

[funflower]

92. It takes more courage to respectfully disagree than to "smack them down."

I'd never put someone else's defaced religious emblem on my car. Not a defaced fish, a defaced Star of David, a defaced anything. To me, that suggests disrespect for something that is deeply important to another human being. Their beliefs are not a threat to mine. I am strong enough that I can afford to treat them kindly.

[hunter]

97. I don't have a darwin fish on my car.

I wouldn't put the other sort of fish on my car either.

Let's see, how do I say this kindly? Or maybe better I should ask, "What Would Jesus Say?"

"Be careful not to make a show of your religion before men; if you do, no reward awaits you in your Father's house in heaven." (Matthew 6.1)

"Do not give dogs what is holy; do not throw your pearls to the pigs: they will only trample on them, and turn and tear you to pieces." (Matthew 7.6)

Oh dear, one bad thing leads to another...

[unschooler]

98. I once saw a car with a Christian fish and a Darwin fish kissing.

I thought that was kind of cute.

Personally, I prefer fish-free cars. I don't drive well enough to use my car as an advertisement for my belief system!