5. Meaning.

[Strong Atheist]

The last reason religion was invented. What is the meaning of life, we cry (to god, or whatever). Why are we here? What is our purpose? We cry out for someone to give our lives that all-important purpose.

Atheists know that life APPEARS meaningless because IT IS. We know that there is no god(s) to give our life meaning/direction/whatever. The truth is that Life has the meaning that YOU give it, not what someones who may or may not be real gives to you. YOU CHOSE to live your life the way that you do (horrible realization, ain't it?). If you are kind and care for others, that is YOUR CHOICE. If you are a nasty rotten sh*t, that is also YOUR CHOICE. We are free as birds; free to do well or do badly as we CHOSE.

(A last note: a sixth reason for religion eventually at some time appeared; the use of it to collect power over others. I am kind enough to think that this did not happen immediately, but later on as certain people saw that religion could be used cynically for their own purposes. Now of course, we could argue about how widespread religion-to-be-used-as-power-over-others is at the tops of most religions ....).

[mrcheerful]

1. Not only that but

when things go bad for them they have no one to blame it on out side of themselves. Religious people always either say its god's will or the devil made them do it.

[Bluerthanblue]

3. be careful of your use of sweeping accusations- 'always' is an

oxymoron, in truth.
And as a person of faith, i can attest to the fact that there are very many of us who have not only learned, but understand in ways that many who claim to believe in NO god(s)- that self is very often the cause and 'convicted' offender in most of our lives.
Saying "yeah, but, you he/she/it/they/ made me do this- or made me mad, or hurt me first etc...etc..etc.." is something common to human beings-

Atheists, and people who embrace a spiritual belief alike- and the honest person among any 'group' will not only realize, but admit, that NO ONE can 'make' us do anything.- and that 'being good' doesn't keep bad things from happening.- Life happens, it is how WE choose to respond that makes all the difference.

I have no desire to force a belief of something others reject onto anyone- but i won't stand silent in the face of anyone telling me i must abandon my belief either-

peace.

[Strong Atheist]

18. I am not telling you to abandon your

belief. The theists have the atheist hopelessly outnumbered, and always will, therefore converting them is an exercise in futility (an cruel as well, IMO). unlike some atheists, I harbor no delusions that atheists will EVER make up more than about 5% of any given population. For whatever reason (as I have said in my posts, I think that it is due to needs) I think that MOST people NEED to believe in God/Gods/Goddesses, and I would never try to take that from them. These posts are mostly stating my beliefs on atheism and religion.

[Bluerthanblue]

25. i appreciate that-

but being the butt-head that i am, do you sincerly believe that there are any TRUE 'atheists' out there?
What is a 'deist' anyway? To those who deny power outside themselves is at work in life, is to, (in my opinion)- sort of like claim that THEY are 'the god' of thier life- not something bad, or as a 'dis'- just an observation.
And while i would agree that if polled most people would claim a belief in 'god'- or a force outside themself existing- many people who deny the same concept do, when push comes to shove- indeed embrace a measure of 'belief' or 'faith' that goes beyond what can be proven as concrete fact.

[Strong Atheist]

29. To respond to your points one at a time

1. Yes, Virginia, there ARE atheist. I is one!

2. If you want to look at people who deny gods as their own gods, whatever floats your boat! I do not view it that way, nor do I think that most atheist view it that way. We are not our own god, but our own PERSON.

3. For a greater insight into how I view belief, look at my "Hello" thread in the atheist forum ...

[Bluerthanblue]

26. Also meant to point out that the word 'always' is not

appropriate in the post following your original one- nor is 'always' often a valid word to express anything- just like never- absolutes are created to be challenged by those of us born to run against the current-

;-)

[Strong Atheist]

28. Atheist will ALWAYS

be outnumbered by theists, EVERYWHERE! :P

On edit: I was not the poster that you were annoyed with about using always; but I did use it in another post. We have three posters here ...

[papau]

2. "religion was invented" - and not religion was experienced? - Seems

you start with the answer you want, and then explain how you got your answer.

Interesting.

[wtbymark]

4. experienced????

the contents of my empirical knowledge affords me no such 'experience'

[unpossibles]

5. I don't understand

"God" or other things can be experienced which would lead one to create a religion, but how is religion not invented? No organized church or belief system that I know of came about without first having believers.

Did that make sense?

[papau]

11. What is the meaning of "invention" - It is a bit like pure science versus

applied science.

It is in the eye of the writer.

People that feel the same about events, have had the same experiences, and gain the the same world view, are a gathering of "believers" who "invent" that view?

If the OP feels "invent" with its "made it all up" suggestion is the way to argue in a circle, it is a beautiful day, and time for a walk!

:toast:

:-)

[unpossibles]

14. I think I understand now

I guess it depends on how one defines "invention" as well as "religion" - I think the organization of a religion/church is human made, even if the person who does the organization experience something they believe to not be human made.

Enjoy your walk!

:D

[Strong Atheist]

6. See #1 Existence, in

another thread. I BELIEVE that ALL ideas/tools are indeed human INVENTIONS. God/Gods/Goddesses are just another tool/idea, so yes, they WERE invented in the distant past, just like the wheel, math, spears, etc. Now I have to go to the invention of a meeting :-( . I will talk to you all more tomorrow.

[papau]

8. I understand what you believe - and I believe differently. Indeed I

believe my belief is logical and yours is not.

Not that there is anything wrong in having a belief that is not logical.

The fellow who asked "what are life experiences" perhaps has forgot all the heavy thinking the Greeks did for us years ago.

[Inland]

37. So an atheist invented religion to give his life meaning.

He had no god to give his life meaning, and having a choice, decided that belief in gods would do it. After all, your OP doesn't go past the presentation of "the choice" and suddenly, the choice of religion as a means presents itself.

[RaleighNCDUer]

15. Spirituality might be "experienced" but the structure of religion

is very clearly a human invention, like any other system of governance. Put it this way. A caveman steps out of his cave and feels the warmth of the sun, and it feels good. Amd he says "the sun is good." Hard to argue with. That might be the first steps of spirituality - according a natural phenomena with the properties of good or bad. On the other hand, from the first guy that claimed that the sun clearly ruled over the earth because it stood higher than the earth, religion was invented.

Spirituality is about questions. Religion is about answers, usually of the unanswerable.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

7. I find myself disagreeing with you here.

You say: Atheists know that life APPEARS meaningless because IT IS.


If you would just replace the above word "know" with "believe" I'm with you. Because what you are talking about is belief. Not knowing. Nobody knows. Which is how we get into all these arguments in the first place! It is the great mystery. Ask Monty Python. The meaning of life... we all believe we are right. But nobody "knows."

You don't want to come across as a fundie atheist, do you? Because fundies KNOW.

(although if you have some inside info on this and really "know" let me "know" because we could make some money with proof on this!)

[papau]

9. I agree - but you say it better than I :-)

if I had to make my living on my writing ability I'd starve!

:-)

[TallahasseeGrannie]

10. And interestingly enough

I agree with just about everything else because I believe in free will. I don't think we are controlled by anyone or anything.

I think prayer is an energy changing event that works because of physical laws.

At least that's this month's belief. I'm very flexible.

[unpossibles]

12. well said and I will go one further

as an agnostic/non-theist, I believe that life is not meaningless because it may be all we get. There may be something more, a second act, but to me I want to live life right, learn, and enjoy my experiences while I can and to share that happiness with others.

My mom died young, and while it was a very hard learned lesson for me, it also was valuable - we never know what will happen to us from day to day. Carpe Diem ("holy fish"? hahaha) and all that.

:D

[Strong Atheist]

19. I am willing to say believe, on one level,

unlike some atheists, because I take most of life on faith (check out my "Hello" thread in the atheists group for a fuller explanation). However, in my mind, once I get beyond the existential doubt about possibly being in The Matrix and being deceived, it is a matter of probabilities. If something is so strong in the (given) universe as I perceive it so as to approach 100%, I say that I KNOW it, without much fear of contradiction. Can I personally prove that the Earth is more or less spherical? No, but I know that it is true ( and there are still flat Earthers - there is a society) that dispute this). I say that it is not my duty to go around proving all the things that I KNOW to be true based on my perceptions of the universe around me, or disproving the ones that I KNOW not to be true (truly an infinite number), but rather it is the duty of people who disagree with me to prove otherwise (or not, as they choose).

So on the level of "are we in THE Matrix, being deceived", I can say that my positions on ANYTHING in the universe (other than myself, time and space, seem my "Hello" thread) ARE BELIEFS. On the probability of being true level, I can say that I KNOW them, just as anyone else is allowed to say that they know anything.

[xchrom]

13. hmmmm? ya know i've always wondered about that --

death could not have been a more common experience in our early development.

it's always been dificult for me to credit our early ancestors with creating ''religion'' to explain something as common as a rock -- and our early ancestors would certainly not expect ''mercy''.

i think they created something to explain some things they could not understand. i'm not sure death would be one of those.
i'm not sure we're much different today.

[wtbymark]

16. "i'm not sure we're much different today."

i don't think most of us have even taken one step

[Goldensilence]

17. most have taken the first step

in that being a question. To me lately the only logical answer to a question sometimes is another question.

Some people aren't happy with this understandably i guess. They want simple yes or no. True or false. Assurances. To me it is a fallacy of reason to believe something so magnificent and awe-inpsiring and breath taking in its rich complexities such as life and to think you can sum it up in one book.I think it's much more logical to find out for yourself.

I have many questions and have found many answers they are spoken in the wind in the leaves, the sun on my face, thunder in storms, and in the waters of rivbers and lakes. The anwers are around us sometimes it is a matter of listening.

I still have many questions and I'm ok with that because most of the time it is what presses me forward. In constant amazement of it all on some days and constant horror on others. In the end lately i simply search for freedom(my definition being not only the ability to be but the ability to do)

Far as death is concerned i don't fear it not view it as evil only as change. Change is the constant of the universe I think that's why I like it so much. The changing of one form to another i believe will be amamzing. I have seen a person on their deathbed and was one of the last few to speak to my grandmother and knew the moment she passed before my family came out and told me so. I believe I've had several out of body experiences. I'm looking forward to finding out the answer one dy but in the meantime. I've kind of have come to one simple conclusion on life...enjoy.

[Strong Atheist]

20. I disagree. Just because something

is "common" (like gravity, or death) does not make it understandable, or less than frightening. I think early humans (and most now, too) were very frightened by death; did not understand it (why does it have to happen), and sought explanations in religion. IMO.

[xchrom]

24. we were/are creatures of nature.

very early on we were carrion eaters, predators and prey.

later we were hunters -- we killed.

we died easily from hunger to an infected digit of some sort.

we most certainly understood death.

if anything some notion of communing with our food source was the top three reasons for ''religion'' to develop.

[Strong Atheist]

30. I think we are disagreeing

about what it means to truly "understand" something. I can talk about billions or trillions, of something, but can only really visualize and "understand" in the thousands; like picture with crowds of people. I don't think that most people, then or now, UNDERSTAND death, why it comes, why it has to be.

[xchrom]

32. that's one of the chasms that has been created between us and

our ancestors.

there's a lot we can't understand about them -- no matter how much we study.

however -- if you look at interpretations of cave art -- most if not all of it has to do with ''food''.
not our death.

[grumpy old fart]

21. Spirituality is about questions. Religion is about answers.

And answers can lead to an end of questioning. A sorry state, indeed. And when taken beyond the self, can be downright dangerous to the community as a whole. IMHO.

[Strong Atheist]

33. Agreed nt.

[Odin2005]

22. I read in an intresting book...

...about the evolution of the human mind called Archeology of Mind, the author divides Intellegence in several different types; social intelligence, technical intelligence, natural history intelligence, and general intelligence. In pre-modern Homo species, the different kinds for intelligence were walled off from each other. In Home sapiense, the intellegences become connected, and that religion is the result of the connecting between social and natural history intelligences. Nature becomes personified with gods and spirits.

[Strong Atheist]

23. Hmmm ... nt.

[Darranar]

27. The truth is that the existentialist conception of meaning and values

applies regardless of God's existence.

Whether or not God sets moral values, whether or not God creates meaning and purpose, we still have free will, and thus have the capability to choose which ones we accept. They don't have to be God's ones. The choice of accepting God's is just as much a choice as accepting any other system.

This is multiplied by the fact that we have no reliable method of knowing which values and meaning God created for us.

[Strong Atheist]

31. We agree about

free will and choices!:)

[wildhorses]

34. we are in control of our attitude but, if you think I have control of

what I pay for gas...how come they insist on overcharging me?

[Strong Atheist]

35. Oh, boy. You are dipping into the dangerous waters of R&T. And

kicking an old post, to boot. I think I will stick with talking with you in the Lounge; that way all will be copacetic...

[wildhorses]

36. see you in the funny papers

:silly:;)

[Inland]

38. You confuse choice and meaning.

The religious also believe they have choices in behavior: but they have reasons to choose one over the other ("meaning").

The question that's begged for atheists is, okay, your life has the meaning YOU give it, but what is that meaning you are giving it? You are free as birds. Now what? "What is the meaning of life, why are we here, what is our purpose" are legitimate questions that AREN'T answered by the statement that "t's up to you."

Frankly, I could do without another thread on how atheism is superior because it doesn't have a god dictating right and wrong. I get it already. I'd like to see a thread on what's right and wrong.

[Strong Atheist]

39. Your wish is my command:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=214&topic_id=37872

This was an old thread that wildhorses decided to kick for reasons of her own. Despite what you think, it was not posted to show superiority of atheists, but to explain what I see as the reasons that religion was invented (since I believe that religion is a human invention, like every other idea), along with the other four posts (numbered, strangely enough, 1-4).

Oh, BTW:

Now what? "What is the meaning of life, why are we here, what is our purpose" are legitimate questions that AREN'T answered by the statement that "t's up to you."

Disagree. It is the ONLY way this question can be answered....

[Inland]

40. Well, that's the quickest end to a discussion possible.

"People CAN argue about morality in any given situation because morality is NOT objective, it is a matter of individual "taste"."

What you MEANT to say is that people can't argue about the meaning at all, and can't answer the question.

Unfortunately, even to the individual, a morality of "I dunno, I just like it, that's all" seems wrong, leading to the circular: even if there is nothing but individual taste, most individuals feel that there must be something more than individual taste.

But I think the entire statement that morality is a matter of taste and threrefore is subjective is wrong. Actually, people argue about matters of individual taste all the time, and even the subjective isn't static: religion considers conscience to be a facility that is developed by thought and contemplation, much as the artist considers art to be developed. It's just a question of whether you are going to emulate Martin Amis or the rock critic in the local free paper.

[wildhorses]

42. what if you are both right?

aren't we really just talking about free will and the power to choose our destiny...
perhaps one person's free will is another person's destiny...

[WritingIsMyReligion]

41. Amen (no pun intended).

Life is what you make of it, folks, not what the man in the sky does.

;)