Holocaust Left "Indelible Mark Of Shame," Pope Says

[smb]

From Catholic World News:

Vatican, Nov. 30 (CWNews.com) - In his weekly public audience on November 30, Pope Benedict XVI (bio - news) said that the Holocaust left "an indelible mark of shame on the history of mankind."...

...As he concluded his remarks, the Pope reminded his audience that Thursday, December 1, has been designated by the UN as World AIDS Day. He expressed his support for efforts to combat the disease-- especially the efforts by Church groups-- and his solidarity with the victims of AIDS.

The Pope called international leaders to redouble their work against AIDS. "The statistics are truly alarming!" he said.

[MrBenchley]

1. Pope Ratz only took part in it for the Hitler discount....

http://rogerailes.blogspot.com/2005_04_17_rogerailes_archive.html#111414749916068182

And it would be really unfair to point out that he used to be in the Hitler youth, where he manned an anti-aircraft gun to protect a factory that used slave laborers........

[barb162]

3. do you have a mainstream link to that gun part of the story?

Everything I have read said he and his family kept fleeing the nazis, that they couldn't stand the nazis and all the nazis stood for. Also, if you were ambulatory in those days, you were forced to join the nazi youth and you were drafted into the military service.

[MrBenchley]

10. Try this....

http://chronicle.com/temp/reprint.php?id=ub9r5bmf7jyxlb2y1gxhkudst3vvz6p

I'm reminded of the scene in How I Won the War in which Michael Crawford, as a British POW upbraids Commndant Rod Taylor for his treatment of the POWs.

"Oh this is nothing!" says Taylor jovially. "You should see what we're doing to the Jews."
"Why? What are you doing to the Jews?" asks Crawford.
"I have no idea," replies Taylor.

[barb162]

18. this isn't funny...people died, people were forced to do things

[MrBenchley]

26. And some people went along with it willingly

and now want to set themselves up as moral authorities...

[barb162]

53. Yes some did, but I think this pope was not one of those

See some of the links I have posted. His family and he were not pro-nazi

[Midwest_Doc]

7. He should Know....

...He was part of it.

[MrBenchley]

11. Give that man a cigar!

Right on the nose!

[TallahasseeGrannie]

24. Part of it because he was a German?

And in Hitler youth? He was a teenager and he was a seminarian. Pretty doubtful he was "part of it."

He was not a member of the Nazi party. He wasn't old enough or powerful enough. That was a privilege. He had the misfortune to grow up under a totalitarian regime.

I have diferences with the man and his dogma, but in my opinion this "nazi" business is racist and places a strawman right in the middle of his theology.

[Midwest_Doc]

41. Wrong!

His father was anti-nazi, the pope could have followed that path - but he did not.

[stepnw1f]

2. This Pope Looks Like The Evil Emperor

in Star Wars.

[UTUSN]

4. Well ArighTY Then. Any Time to Comment on the Current Mark of Shame?

Now that we've got this history thing down?

[Loonman]

5. RAT-boy was Kapo, wasn't he?

Fucking Nazi.

[barb162]

6. the man was NOT a nazi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Benedict_XVI#Background_and_childhood_.281927.E2.80.931943.29

The Sunday Times of London described the elder Ratzinger as "an anti-Nazi whose attempts to rein in Hitler's Sturmabteilung forced the family to move several times." <1>. According to the International Herald Tribune, these relocations were directly related to Joseph Ratzinger, Sr.'s continued resistance to Nazism, which resulted in demotions and transfers. <2> The pope's brother Georg said: "Our father was a bitter enemy of Nazism because he believed it was in conflict with our faith." <3>.

snip
When Ratzinger turned 14 he was forced by law to join the Hitler Youth (membership was legally required from December 1936<4>.) According to the National Catholic Reporter correspondent and biographer John Allen, Ratzinger was an unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings. Ratzinger has mentioned that a Nazi mathematics professor arranged reduced tuition payments for him at seminary. This normally required documentation of attendance at Hitler Youth activities; however, according to Ratzinger, his sympathetic professor arranged things so that he did not have to attend to receive a scholarship.

[Loonman]

8. "unenthusiastic member who refused to attend meetings. "

Bullshit. You don't refuse the Nazis for any reason and live.

[barb162]

13. So you call him a fucking nazi

when we know he was conscripted, forced to join and wanted nothing to do with the whole nazi thing?

[da_chimperor]

17. Don't bother trying to convince them.

Some people believe what they wish to be true rather than what is. Cheers.

[barb162]

20. If the lies aren't disputed, more and more people will believe them

thanks for the thought though

PS I don't like seeing people trashed with a bunch of lies like this

[Colorado Blue]

29. I don't like this either. My husband was born in the ruins of

WWII Germany. His father and his uncle both flew for the Luftwaffe. His uncle died, his father spent years in a Soviet POW camp. His mother witnessed sheer terror when the Russian army entered German towns, raping and murdering - she was only a teenager herself.

These people weren't - aren't - Nazis. They were caught up in a terrible situation, they were nationalistic as most Americans are today - but to pin the Nazi label on all Germans, including the Pope, is a shame.

Also, people need to use their brains a little and respect the difference between democratic America and Germany in the 1930's. Unless there is some empathy and some recognition of what the German people went through after WWI and also how frightening the Nazis were, how people were coerced, dissidents jailed and murdered, it's impossible to understand WWII.

[Violet_Crumble]

30. This isn't about yr husband, it's about a member of the Hitler Youth...

And I hate to burst the bubble, but members of the Hitler Youth were Nazis. Speaking of using brains just a little, anyone who's familiar with post-war Germany would know that the scary thing about the Nazis were that they were ordinary people, and after the war many of them 'rewrote' their involvement by totally distancing themselves from Nazism and claiming they were reluctant followers who had it forced upon them. From lower-level Nazis to the upper echelon, they attempted to minimise their involvement in what had happened and used excuses like they were forced to follow orders and were scared for their lives if they disobeyed. The reality is in fact very different. Dissent within Germany wasn't unheard of at all. One very famous example was when wives of German Jewish men who had been rounded up to be deported staged a high profile public protest. Not one single one of them was arrested. Goebbels did threaten to shoot them, but then released the men. (Nazi Terror by Eric A. Johnson goes into more detail if you don't believe me)...

The Pope has himself a spin team that many pollies would kill for, and they're trying to spin away something that was in his past. While I don't believe screaming that he was a Nazi has any bearing on him now, it was a part of his past that he, like many others involved with the Nazis, should have at some point faced up to instead of spinning stories of force and unwillingness. Because if a white-washing of the Pope's involvement is good enough for some, then the same goes for the multitude of Germans who also claim they were carried along unwillingly...

Violet...

[mare]

32. For the last damn time:

Becoming a member of the Hitler Youth was almost always mandatory. Most people did not choose to become a member. And even if they became a member it didn't make them a Nazi. Take my great-aunt. To her the Hitler Youth was a Boy Scout group. They were mostly doing fun things, they did NOT worship Hitler.
And the mother of my friend I just mentioned in another posting who never joined? She grew up in a very small town where everybody knows everybody else, that's why nothing ever happened to her when she refused.

[Colorado Blue]

35. Thanks Mare. EOM.

[Violet_Crumble]

37. I heard you the first time and yr wrong...

Any German that says that Hitler wasn't worshipped is lying. He was, and it was an integral part of the boy scoutish feel of the Hitler Youth. Try reading my post instead of repeating the same incorrect stuff...

Violet...

[barb162]

47. You are incorrect. "Any German... " Pretty broad brush there

He was worshipped by some or a lot of Germans but certainly not all Germans.

[Violet_Crumble]

66. It would help if you addressed what I actually said...

My post said nothing about every German worshipping Hitler. What I said was: 'Any German that says that Hitler wasn't worshipped is lying.' If you have any difficulty in telling the difference between what I said and what you claim I said, I can expand further for you...

Violet...

[barb162]

77. What you said? Don't you mean what you wrote?

Accuracy in writing is very important and if you have any difficulty in understanding the difference between saying and writing something, well, there's a huge problem you are having right there. Because if you say something on this board, I am not hearing it.

[Violet_Crumble]

79. Okay, for yr benefit, change 'said' to 'wrote'...

Then read my post again :)

Violet...

[barb162]

81. It's for my benefit? I don't think so.

Accuracy in your writing is for your benefit

[Violet_Crumble]

83. What has this got to do with the topic of the thread?

n/t

[barb162]

85. Why do you ask? Don't you know?

[Violet_Crumble]

87. No. I've got no idea...

n/t

[barb162]

96. That's sad

[Colorado Blue]

34. Please do not talk to ME about Nazis. I think I have a LITTLE

more experience with Nazis than, perhaps, the average person, insofar as 6,000,000 of my relatives got wiped out by them.

And it IS about my husband, about his parents, his uncles, about Germans who were caught up in that dreadful time. MILLIONS of people were "caught up with the Nazis".

If we, who were practically wiped off the planet by them, can forgive, why can't you?

[Name removed]

38. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Midwest_Doc]

92. It's Not A Matter of Forgiveness

It's a matter of getting the pope to acknowledge his Nazi roots.

[Name removed]

48. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

49. Excellent point, this happened to thousands of German families

who did not support Hitler and that insane regime. For the thousands who did not support it had to be absolutely beyond terrifying.

[Midwest_Doc]

91. You are wrong

The whole "forced-to-join" mantra doesn't surrvive scrutiny. The pope was (is?) a supporter of Hitler and the Nazis.

[mare]

31. Not true.

For example: The mother of one of my friends in school always refused the nazis. She didn't even join the Hitler Youth. Nothing ever happened to her.

[Behind the Aegis]

33. Isn't it interesting...

...that some will defend real Nazis or Holocaust deniers, but when proof is shown that someone is not, because they happen to be someone they don't like (and I don't really care for this Pope), then it doesn't matter? Makes you really wonder...where are the real progressives and liberals?

[barb162]

58. Good point, I am asking the same question a lot these days

[Midwest_Doc]

90. The Pope's Father Was Courageous

The Pope was (is?) a Nazi.

[mitchum]

9. What's this "we" nonsense, Ratzy?

MY corporation wasn't aiding and abetting the third reich. Too bad you can't say the same.

[barb162]

15. DId you want the Church to send out its 50 Swiss Guards out or

something? You know, that giant military force of theirs? Their artillery? Tanks? Fighter planes? The Catholic Church wasn't aiding and abetting.

[LostinVA]

21. I think the Church did aid and abet

They definitely gave tacit support by not condemning the actions of the Nazis. The Vatican, and thus the Pope, knew about the Holocaust (just like the US government), relatively early in the War. Millions could have been saved, I firmly believe, if His Holiness had said a word. The "euthanasia" program of mentally disabled gentiles stopped when word got out.

The Vatican and the Pope's conduct during this time is far from blameless.

[barb162]

22. Trying to stay removed is not tacit support or aiding and abetting

The US government and the Pope didn't know for certain about the camps early on. The info was filtering in later on and even then what did you expect him to do? Same thing with the US government, when they were sure of what was going on, they proceeded with plans to continue the war without stopping action for the camps. Because of that, the US guv wasn't aiding and abetting the nazis with their extermination. They were trying to get the war done ASAP which was their main goal, with least loss of American life.They stuck with their main goal of ending the war.

I just don't believe the revisionism I am reading here.

[Violet_Crumble]

36. The only revisionism I'm seeing is from you...

So the US and British didn't talk to each other about what was happening in Europe? Sorry, but the US knew about the Holocaust prior to the camps. Heard of the Einsatzgruppen? See, the camps weren't the initial way that the Nazis carried out their mass-murder, and the BBC started broadcasting news of the murder of Jews in 1941 and kept on going. Of course there was the possibility that this news didn't hit the top levels of either US or British govts, because the murder of Jews didn't rate all that highly with them...

Some more FACTS for you:

In January 1942, 52,000 people were murdered by the Nazis in Kiev. When the US embassy in Moscow asked whether the victims had been Jews, they were told yes.

40,000 Jews were murdered in Vilna in 1942. The US knew about this too - the US ambassador in London reported it to Washington once that news hit some American and Jewish newspapers.

In July 1942, Dr. Reigner, the representative of the World Jewish Congress in Switzerland sent this cable to London and Washington:

Received alarming report that in Fuhrer's headquarters plan discussed and under consideration according to which all Jews in countries occupied or controlled Germany numbering 3½ -4 millions should after deportation and concentration in East be exterminated at one blow to resolve once for all the Jewish Question in Europe stop the action reported planned for autumn methods under discussion including prussic acid stop we transmit information with all reservation as exactitude cannot be confirmed stop informant states to have close connections with highest German authorities and his reports generally speaking reliable.

Reigner was cautious about what he'd been told, and he did try to find out if his informant could be trusted, but that wasn't all the evidence that came from Reigner. In October 1942, he also forwarded the evidence of two Jews who had been witnesses to massacres carried out by the Nazis. There were other reports coming in from various sources at the same time, and all were being forwarded to Washington. Even though some got facts wrong, it was blatantly clear that there was systematic mass murder being carried out by the Nazis. But the Allies didn't want to hear these stories because it would mean they'd be forced (in the words of one of the heads of the Foreign Office) 'to waste a disproportionate amount of their time in dealing with wailing Jews.'

As more and more information appeared, the Assistant Secretary in charge of Special War Problems Division told a US ambassador in Europe that he was to no longer transmit or accept any similar reports. Those reports were seen as embarressing. While some of the reluctance to listen could maybe be put down to the atrocity-story hangover from WWI, there were too many reports saying the same thing coming from different sources for them to be discarded as that...


There's a world of difference in not knowing, or even not being sure, and what happened, which was a strong desire not to listen to reports of what was going on....

All that is in a book by Walter Laqueur called 'The Terrible Secret: An investigation into the suppression of information about Hitler's Final Solution', and there's heaps more in there that show it wasn't a case of not being sure - it was a case of complete indifference...

Violet...

[mitchum]

45. Thank you

[Violet_Crumble]

69. No worries. Glad someone in this thread is interested in facts...

btw, Walter Laqueur's book is a fascinating read. He deals with how much and when it was known by not only the Allies, but Germans, neutral coutries, Jews in Nazi-occupied areas of Europe, and world Jewry...


Violet...

[barb162]

50. Talk about blame-game

While Allied Forces were prosecuting the war, it is very easyto make comments about why the US or Britain weren't doing more.

Yours: "So the US and British didn't talk to each other about what was happening in Europe."

Since many nations made up the Allied Expeditionary Forces, including Australia, etc., could you fill us all in on what Australia did about the oncentration camps in Europe at the time? What about other countries, such as the Mideast countries? Argentina? WHat was the rest of the world doing? Or was any atrocity going on in the world a US /Britain only problem. By the way I have some relatives who were directly involved with the liberation of the camps. Is this,somehow, in your mind,an American/Britain problem? Not a world problem?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust#Who_knew_about_the_killings.3F Who knew about the killings?
Some claim that the full extent of what was happening in German-controlled areas was not known until after the war. However, numerous rumors and eyewitness accounts from escapees and others gave some indication that Jews were being killed in large numbers. Since the early years of the war the Polish government-in-exile published documents and organised meetings to spread word of the fate of the Jews. By early 1941, the British had received information via an intercepted Chilean memo that Jews were being targeted, and by late 1941 they had intercepted information about a number of large massacres of Jews conducted by German police. In the summer of 1942 a Jewish labor organization (the Bund) got word to London that 700,000 Polish Jews had already died, and the BBC took the story seriously, though the United States State Department did not take the news seriously<14>. By the end of 1942, however, the evidence of the Holocaust had become clear and on December 17, 1942 the Allies issued a statement that the Jews were being transported to Poland and killed.

Debate also continues on how much average Germans knew about the Holocaust. Recent historical work suggests that the majority of Germans knew that Jews were being indescriminately killed and persecuted, even if they did not know of the specifics of the death camps. Robert Gellately, a historian at Oxford University, conducted a widely-respected survey of the German media before and during the war, concluding that there was "substantial consent and active participation of large numbers of ordinary Germans" in aspects of the Holocaust, and documenting that the sight of columns of slave laborers were common, and that the basics of the concentration camps, if not the extermination camps, were widely known<15>.
---
SOme to many Germans knew what was happening. That doesn't mean they all knew. It doesn't mean they all agreed with it

The US didn't start the invasion of Normandy until the summer of 1944. What is it that is expected of the USA? What did your country do to liberate the camps.

[Violet_Crumble]

68. You claimed something that's been proven wrong...

This is about historical facts, not some 'blame-game'...

Yr claim was: 'The US government and the Pope didn't know for certain about the camps early on.'

I provided you with just a few of many examples that the US govt did indeed know for certain that massacres of European Jews were going on. Is there anything I posted that you'd like to try to dispute? Maybe Wikipedia, being the stunning One Stop Shop of anything anyone ever needs to know about anything, has decided that Reignter was a liar, and every report was a fabrication that was never sent to Washington?

On a side-note: not sure why yr asking about Australia. It's got nothing to do with what you claimed about the US not knowing for certain what was happening. But if you do decide to gain a bit of knowledge of anything WWII, you'll kind of notice rather quickly that Australia, being part of the Commonwealth, didn't get to decide much at all - like the rest of the Commonwealth, we automatically went to war when Britain declared war on Germany in 1939, and the PM had to ask permission from Churchill to bring Australian troops home from the Middle East when Australia was in danger of being invaded. Churchill of course said no to the request, which explains the latter jumping ship to being buddies of the US when it comes to the big and powerful protector game...

Violet...

[barb162]

73. You seem to imply that the US and Britain are responsible for

certain things in your earlier post, that they didn't act on info , etc. Your concern about the action or inaction of the US and Britain is somewhat striking in that you don't seem to evidence the same concern for action or inaction of your own country. So, again, what in heck was your country doing to stop the slaughter in the camps? The US was more than an ocean away from the camps as was yours. Oh and if you decide to gain any knowledge about the Commonweath, you'll notice Australia wasn't then or now some stupid little colony of Britain. SO again, instead of doing a blame on the US, what did your country do about the camps again? Are you trying to imply Churchill never confided anything to your government about the camps? That your country didn't know or didn't have its own intelligence gathering? Historical facts now, please.

[Violet_Crumble]

74. What I was doing was proving yr claim wrong...

As I said, if there's something you wish to dispute from the FACTS that I posted which provided clear evidence that the US did indeed know about the massacres of European Jews and of the Final Solution, then point out what yr disputing and try and provide some evidence to back-up yr argument...

It's called focus :)

Violet...

[barb162]

82. Try to focus on my question of what your country was doing

about the camps, if anything.

[Violet_Crumble]

88. I don't understand why yr asking that question...

..and I have explained a few times already why it's a particularly bizarre question to be asking in response to my providing evidence to show that yr claim of 'The US government and the Pope didn't know for certain about the camps early on.' was wrong...

Violet....

[Violet_Crumble]

78. Addressing the tangent about Australia's WWII standing with Britain...

Oh and if you decide to gain any knowledge about the Commonweath, you'll notice Australia wasn't then or now some stupid little colony of Britain.

I didn't realise I was lacking in knowledge about the Commonwealth and Empire (which it was until after the war). Strange, but I don't recall saying anywhere in my post that Australia was 'some stupid little colony of Britain'. Australia was a Dominion at the time. Do you know what that is? What it is still means that as part of the Commonwealth, Australia automatically went to war when Britain did, and the PM did have to ask permission to try to get Australian troops moved home from the Middle East when it looked like we were going to be invaded by the Japanese. Australian troops were under British command in Europe, as were the troops of other commonwealth countries. Bottom line is any attempts to portray Australia as one of the major countries that made up the Allies is patently ridiculous. The big three were and have always been the US, Britain, and the USSR...

I can point you to some basic books about the relationship between Britain and the rest of the Commonwealth during WWII if you are interested in reading up on it. If yr not, that's fine, but yr posts are coming across as quite hostile, so I'd really appreciate it if you could try discussing historical issues like this in a less antagonistic way. Thanks :)

Violet...

[barb162]

84. Well we now both agree it wasn't some little colony. We are making

a bit of progress here. What with the events in Europe and the slaughter of innocent people, did Australia demand to take independent action? Why didn't Australia take action itself to stop the slaughter. Why or not? Surely Britain would not make war with a commonwealth member which was horrified at the activities in Europe at the time. Why do you consider questions about your country's actions in WW2 hostile? Should I consider your questions about the US actions in WW2 hostile also?

As a matter of fact I am asking the same questions of you and your country as you are asking of me and my country during WW2.

[Violet_Crumble]

86. I never said it was some little colony...

So I'm not sure what yr talking about, barb. I'm also not sure why yr repeating the same irrelevent questions over and over again. I've explained Australia's status, so why are you insisting that a country that had to ask British permission to bring troops home to defend itself 'take action' of it's own accord? You seem to be giving WWII Australia a lot more power than it had....

I didn't ask you the question 'why didn't the US take action to stop the slaughter', so why are you saying I did?

For the record, my initial reply was to yr claim: 'The US government and the Pope didn't know for certain about the camps early on.' I gave some solid historical evidence from a very well-respected historian that yr claim was incorrect. How does that turn into me supposedly asking questions about the US not taking action??

btw, my request for you to try to stop the hostility in yr posts has nothing to do with any discussion of Australia's role in WWII (though I'm a bit bemused as to why it's come up in discussion). It has to do with multiple posts in this thread. I would really appreciate it if you could try and engage in a civil and constructive discussion as some of the issues that have been touched upon are pretty interesting, and my experience in the past has been that they're not usually ones that tend to inflame emotions...

Violet...

[barb162]

97. Nor I. It's an independent nation and can take action itself

[mitchum]

44. Thank you

[barb162]

51. Really? "List of people who helped Jews during the Holocaust"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_who_helped_Jews_during_the_Holocaust

Leaders and diplomats
...

Pope Pius XII - estimates of the number of Jews directly saved by the Church are in the hundreds of thousands, although substantial controversy continues to exist about whether he could have done more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Pius_XII#Pius_XII_and_the_Holocaust_2

Official documents
Summi Pontificatus Pope Pius XII's wartime Encyclical condemning Nazism's racism and Communism's atheism
Mit Brennender Sorge anti-Nazi encyclical promulgated by Pope Pius XI, written by future Pope Pius XII (Eugenio Pacelli), 14 March 1937. This is the only encyclical to have been originally published in German.

[barb162]

52. JEWISH HISTORIAN PRAISES PIUS XII'S WARTIME CONDUCT

http://academics.smcvt.edu/pcouture/jewish_historian_praises_pius_xi.htm

JEWISH HISTORIAN PRAISES PIUS XII'S WARTIME CONDUCT

Michael Tagliacozzo Works at a Center for Holocaust Studies

VATICAN CITY, OCT. 25, 2000 (ZENIT.org).- The closed-door meeting of the Judeo-Christian Historical Commission, which has been meeting in Rome since Monday 23, ends today.

The commission was established last October by Cardinal Edward I. Cassidy, president of the Committee for Religious Relations with Jews, to examine the 11 volumes of archives documents relating to the Holy See's activities during the Second World War.

In recent years Pius XII and the Holy See have been accused of not doing enough to save Jews persecuted by the Nazis.

To shed light on the Pope's role in this part of the war, ZENIT interviewed Jewish historian Michael Tagliacozzo, responsible for the Beth Lohame Haghettaot (Center of Studies on the Shoah and Resistance) in Italy. Beth Lohame Haghettaot in western Galilee in Israel is one of the world's largest museums and centers of documentation on the Holocaust.

* Tagliacozzo: I know that many criticize Pope Pacelli. I have a folder on my table in Israel entitled 'Calumnies Against Pius XII,' but my judgment cannot but be positive. Pope Pacelli was the only one who intervened to impede the deportation of Jews on Oct. 16, 1943, and he did very much to hide and save thousands of us. It was no small matter that he ordered the opening of cloistered convents. Without him, many of our own would not be alive. snip

[mitchum]

46. You eagerness to defend the indefensible is rather touching...

but it doesn't change the truth.

[barb162]

54. " the indefensible"

To what specifically are you referring

If you have some mainstream evidence that when he was a kid that he was some leader of the Hitler Youth eagerly goosestepping for the Fuhrer or that he couldn't wait to join up to kill Jews, I'd love to hear about it. All evidence I have seen clearly indicates this family moved a few times to get away from the whole nazi thing.

[Colorado Blue]

55. Please note:

Nobody is no more nauseated, and nobody has been more deeply injured by the Nazis, than the Jewish community. So I of all people am not defending or trying to whitewash this terrible evil. And nor am I an apologist for the Catholic Church, many of whose policies I find reactionary.

But I am ALSO not in favor of historical inaccuracy.

Barb, I believe, is similarly trying to point out that there were shades of gray even in the hell of Nazi Germany.

To characterize ALL Germans, including the Pope, as Nazis, is the same as calling all Muslims Islamofascists. This would be considered racist and completely unacceptable on DU.

As far as the Pope and Hitler Youth is concerned, a few Jewish children survived the war by managing to "pass for white". For that matter one can go back to the days of the Spanish Inquisition for other examples of people surviving by assuming protective coloration.

Interestingly, the same people who are calling the Pope a Nazi, or oversimplifying and broadbrushing the situation in wartime Germany, would have an absolute fit if similar statements were made about Muslims.

Go figure.

[barb162]

59. Beautifully stated, Colorado Blue

There is much I disagree with in regard to the Church, women not being allowed to be priests, the pedophilia horror, this pope's conservative doctrine etc., but that doesn't mean the Pope is or was some goose-stepping Jew-hating nazi. I think his childhood in Germany will cause him to reach out to the Jews and other religions and there is clear evidence he is already doing this.

[Colorado Blue]

64. Thanks Barb. It's good to hear from you - a voice of reason.

Besides the Pope, I think Germans and the Austrians - people who were really involved in the horrors of WWII - all learned from it. Some of the people most concerned about the Patriot Act and related infringements on American civil rights, an increase in xenophobia, bigotry and other bad signs in recent years, are my German in-laws - who actually lived through those times - Grandpa and his brother were fighter pilots for the Luftwaffe. They have direct knowledge (as opposed to book learning) about the war.

We Americans haven't had an experience like that, we haven't watched our society spin out of control and become completely irrational - we can't begin to imagine what it was like, let alone pontificate (ahem) about how we would have behaved under those circumstances.

[barb162]

72. We have been so lucky to be in the US

and until one hears the stories of others where there is societal collapse in almost every respect, we don't realize or appreciate the civil rights, the political system, the riches and stability we have. And thank you!

[Violet_Crumble]

70. If yr not in favour of historical inaccuracy...

...then why is it that yr so resistant to the blatantly obvious FACT that the Pope was in the Hitler Youth, and that his spin-team's claims that he was forced to be a member is the same bull that many Germans used after the war to distance themselves from what happened?

I don't recall seeing anyone in this thread characterising ALL Germans as Nazis, btw. Can you point out where that's happened?

Interestingly, the same people who tend to complain when it's pointed out that the Pope was a member of the Hitler Youth, which was the youth arm of the Nazis, or trying to pretend that Germans in general were a cowed and scared bunch of people who were too scared to speak out against the Nazis, don't have any problems when it comes to making comments characterising entire populations in the Middle-East as the inheritors of Nazism...

Go figure, eh?

Violet...

[barb162]

76. I f you're not in favor of historical accuracy

that would explain why you didn't read the links I supplied indicating the Pope wasn't a nazi.

And it is too bad I had to correct your earlier posts about your comments about the German population. Not all the Germans were nazis

[Violet_Crumble]

80. Huh?

Who said I didn't read any links in this thread?

Also, I NEVER said all Germans were Nazis. Please point me to the place in any of my posts where I said so...

Violet...

[DiverDave]

12. Indelible Mark Of Shame, huh?

How about priests raping young boys and you, you sanctimonious asshole, covered it UP!

Yeah, it's a "new" catholic church...:sarcasm:

Oh, "I feel so bad"...lying prick

[barb162]

56. That was TOTALLY wrong; they should have defrocked every

one of those priests as soon as they could have and reported them to the police. There is no justification for their actions on that. Those kids will be traumatized for life.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[barb162]

16. A Very Roman Pope

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1096190,00.html

"snip...With his hands humbly clasped in front of him, the Pope walked into the main hall as the choir sang, ''Shalom alechem,'' or ''peace be with you." After two Hebrew hymns, and the blowing of the shofar ram's horn, the son of a Holocaust survivor and then the synagogue's rabbi spoke. When it came time for Benedict to rise, his remarks wouldn't stray much from the original text. But there was something happening that went beyond words. It was in the way the Pope listened so intently to his hosts. It was the warm, two-hand embrace he shared with the young rabbi. It was in the somber cadence of his voice as he recounted Nazi atrocities, and the utter silence in the synagogue to hear his every breath. It was, in other words, in the German Pope's very presence, which was his own initiative as soon as his trip was scheduled to come to Cologne for the Catholic World Youth day. The synogogue's standing ovation for Benedict was confirmation that German Jews appreciated the gesture. snip"

[lovuian]

19. Yes and your part of the aids epeidemic!!!

:crazy:

[barb162]

23. So the Pope is against AIDS and the Holocaust. WHy trash him

[Fire Walk With Me]

25. Then he'll have no problem releasing the classified vatican dox

about their activities during WW2.

And condemning the pedophelia in the church, and not gay priests. Their lack of truly condemning, and actually acting against, the pedophelia in the church is tacit to approval.

[barb162]

57. They were so wrong on the pedophilia problem it is beyond belief.

They winked at a horrible problem instead of stopping it dead in its tracks. I hope all those responsible for doing it or covering it up are begging forgiveness. There is no justification of any kind for that whole sordid years-long mess.

[Mike_The_Computer]

27. ...but Ratz's stepped-up demonization of gays is A-OK, apparently.

The Church retards the growth of the human race. I wish it weren't so.

[Midwest_Doc]

42. Absolutely Correct!

An incredibly important point that is rarely discussed.

[barb162]

61. I suspect he doesn't see it that way.

He probably thinks of gays as God's children...but he just doesn't want active gays as priests, any more than he wants women as priests. I haven't really read that much on it, but I thought I did read that he or someone in the Church said a gay can be a priest as long as they were not actively gay for the last four years. Remember the old thing the Church has about CELIBACY. I am not condoning anything here and I may be wrong on what I just wrote. This position on gays is in many religions, I think. I think you don't get to be a mullah if you're gay either. I don't know about Buddhists and Hindus. But the anti-gay stance is pervasive in many religions as religion is one of the most tradition bound aspects of any society.

[WhollyHeretic]

62. If he thinks of them as "god's children" as you say then it's kind of

strange that he and the Catholic church actively try to deny them equal rights. Bigotry and discrimination are not justifiable, period. That fact that other religions also preach hatred is not a mitigating factor.

[barb162]

63. Gays can get communion, right?

I am not sure, but I know there are gay Catholics. I am not an apologist for the Church (really and truly) or any other religion, and I am against their not allowing women priests also. Only straight men have full rights in the Catholic and most other religions. Doesn't make it right...it's just the way it is. The thing about preaching hatred... I think that is not what they are doing. For example, the last pope who just died... I think he hated no one including that clown who stabbed and almost killed him. He actually met with that idiot and forgave him and all. I think he didn't have a mean bone in his body. But he still believed gays and women shouldn't be priests.

There's another thing I want to mention and that is the Catholics don't preach hatred in their churches. There's a fair (actually frightening) amount of that going on in Islam around the world, and that's been having mind-boggling implications these last several years. All I have to do is read about the vicious hate and intolerance against the West being preached in certain mosques in Australia, Pakistan, England, France, the Mideast, etc. and that issue is totally overwhelming.

[WhollyHeretic]

65. The Catholic Church actively tries to deny people equal rights.

Hatred isn't limited to one religion. I'm not saying it's everywhere in religion, there are definitely some religious leaders working for progress, but hatred and violence isn't just relegated to some muslims, as your post seems to imply.

[barb162]

71. I specifically stated "...being preached in certain mosques "

Note it didn't state all mosques, because that would not be true by any means or facts. BTW, what I was implying is there are no suicide bombings, beheadings, etc lately connected with or in the name of Christianity. Extremely dangerous things are happening and it aint the Unitarians, the Bahai, the Shinto... either

Yes, there are many religious leaders working for progress and gladly for peace. We need more of them and way less of the ones calling for death to the West.

[Violet_Crumble]

75. This thread isn't about Muslims, barb...

It's about the Pope, not Muslims. Try and stick with the topic of the thread, okay? :)

Violet...

[barb162]

89. It's about religion and this is the religion forum

although that was a little sidetrack.

[barb162]

95. I will reply to other posters if you don't mind

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Midwest_Doc]

93. Where is there ANY EVIDENCE .....

...that the pope has ANY empathy for gays?

[barb162]

98. I don't know

I suspect, though, he looks at all people as good. Maybe I am wrong.

[Goblinmonger]

101. I've got news for him

I went to catholic seminary for 3 years. Three of by friends from those years are priests now. Each of them is gay. They are some of the best priests out there and they are not the ones molesting children (but Ratz doesn't seem to care about getting rid of them).

[barb162]

103. Good! and I am glad for your friends who are good priests

[ReadTomPaine]

28. Aslan should eat him. n/t

[0007]

40. The Pope is infallible, I just wish he'd catch up on current events.

[barb162]

60. HAHAHA! In 2100 AD, maybe, they will catch up to 2005

But then again, maybe it will be 2200AD. One of the Popes said that the church was not of the earth but of the spiritual realm. That's why they are just sort of "out of it."

[grumpy old fart]

43. Concerned about AIDS, but god forbid we talk about condoms....

and the church's contribution to this new holocaust.

[Goldensilence]

67. there was this thing

called the "rat line" if i remember correctly and a bunch of ex-nazis using the church's cover to escape to south america to avoid war crime punishment?

Didn't the church also hold a good bit of nazi money? did some laundering for them in the escape process?

[barb162]

99. hmmm, never heard that.

They were helping and protecting Italian Jews, according to the record and accounts by Italian Jews. I put a link in here about that earlier in the thread
post 52

[Goldensilence]

100. really?

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2005/3205_italy_black_prince.html

<snip>
Borghese belonged to a principal family of Rome's ostensibly Catholic "black nobility," many members of which claim descent from the elite of the Roman Empire. Numerous Popes and cardinals came from the Borghese and allied families, such as the Pallavicini, the Colonna, and the Orsini; these families maintained enormous power into the 20th Century, and still today, in the Curia, the administration of the Vatican. Their faction within the Church helped construct the infamous "rat-line"—run, in part, through monasteries and convents—which spirited thousands of Fascists and Nazis out of Europe after the war, into Ibero-America, Asia, and the Middle East.


this was found just a little after searching(haveto head off to work soon) but i had remembered some of this from a history channel documentary that had explored it in more detail.

[barb162]

102. Lyndon Larouche is editor on this link; he's a really conservative

nutcase deluxe, IMO. I would never, ever, EVER use him as a historical reference under any circumstances. Some well known liberals call this guy a fascist. He obviously has no history education at advanced college level that ever sunk in so things can get by on his web page that no mainstream history professor would ever write. Note the neutrality of the article below (including my snippets) is under dispute by Wikipedia but I have chosen to include it anyway. There are many web sites on LaRouche. When I read holocaust denial, I usually conclude one or a combination of things; either the person is ignorant, anti-Jewish, uneducated, a white supremacist, etc. None of the conclusions or combinations is positive. Although some good articles could slip through on his website, it would not be the first place I would look for scholarly 20th Century European History analysis. PS I didn't really do anything but skim the Douglas article you cited because of the LaRouche problem I am mentioning here and the taint he puts on things. I am sorry. What you heard on History Channel may be true but I would have to hear it stated by a PHD in History from a major university. I don't know the author's credentials, I looked around a bit but didn't find anything fast.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Lyndon_LaRouche


LaRouche has also argued that Adolf Hitler was brought to power by the British; Menachem Begin's "policies are indistinguishable... from Nazi policies"; The Beatles were "a product shaped according to British Psychological Warfare Division specifications; and that rogue elements within the American military took part in, or planned, the September 11, 2001 attacks as part of a coup d'état.



"LaRouche has been regularly accused of anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial. From the early 1970s he regularly criticized Zionism. The relationship of Zionism to Judaism is controversial; supporters of Zionism allege that anti-Zionism is often a form of disguised anti-Semitism <5>. In 1979 the LaRouche publication Campaigner published an issue entitled "Zionism is not Judaism."

snip
LaRouche has been regularly accused of Holocaust denial, widely seen as a hallmark of anti-Semitism. In 1978, LaRouche wrote (in "New Pamphlet to Document Cult Origins of Zionism," New Solidarity, December 8, 1978) that "only" 1.5 million Jews died during World War II.
snip

[Colorado Blue]

104. Thank you. nt