1 assumption, 1 f act and one conclusion

[Niccolo_Macchiavelli]

Ok lets all hold our nose and ASSUME there is something like "Intelligent Design"

Fundi assumption: Good designed us the way he wanted.(as opposed try-and-error-evolution).

Fact: There are miscarriages

Conclusion: God is pro-abortion?


Well you won't convince educated people with this... but you can tease Fundies....

[donsu]

1. way back that was what women said to each other - 'it was meant to be'

speaking of miscarriage


it was nature's way not to spend energy on what cannot survive.

after all survival is the name of the game.

[kc.ink]

2. Perception & interpretation . . . . . . .

1. Belief: God designed humans in His own image.
2. There are miscarriages.
3. Interpretation depends upon truth and knowledge.
4. Abortion is killing.

eom

[hfojvt]

I point to miscarriages too

but on further thought, the answer is obvious. God gives life and God can take it away. We, on the other hand, should not try to play God.

[benburch]

3. Alternative...

God designed man in his own image.

We are dumb.

Therefore God is dumb. (And a little ugly on the side.)

(Credit to Frank Zappa)

[hfojvt]

4. Zappa should be old enough

to remember that there used to be a difference between "dumb" and "stupid". Dumb originally meant the same as "mute", that is unable to talk. Stupid is not the same thing, since "some people without brains do an awful lot of talking".
I cannot quote it exactly, but I still like that little speech from Vonnegut's "Player Piano".
It says something like "sometimes people are stupid, sometimes they are brilliant" (meaning the same people, not dividing humanity into classes).

[benburch]

5. Well, he's dead, and so not likely to ammend his grammar now!

And it was in third person in the song, and stupid would not have sounded right in the context.

[hfojvt]

6. poetic license n/t

[Solly Mack]

7. as miscarriages often happen because something is wrong with the fetus

one could say God is against children with special needs and health problems

they weren't good enough to be born...

lots of ways of spinning it.

if one wanted to, that is...

O8)

[phylny]

16. Interesting observation

When I miscarried twins, early on in pregnancy, one of the doctors told me, "Don't feel badly. This is your body, working exactly as it should."

Now, I don't believe that God doesn't love handicapped people.

[Solly Mack]

17. I was just going along with the "logic"

[phylny]

18. I understand! :) n/t

[uppityperson]

8. It proves again womens role is hard due to The Original Sin

You know, anything that is hard for a female is because of this. Jesus died to save us from our sins. Eve (created from Adam's rib after kicking Lillith, the original woman who was outspoken and equal to man, out of Eden) was created to gie fundies a reason to disallow women their rights.

[SlackJawedYokel]

9. Playing along :D

Fundi assumption: Good designed us the way he wanted.(as opposed try-and-error-evolution).
Damn, this "god" person sure has a weird sense of humor then...I mean, have you *seen* our plumbing?
:D

Fact: There are miscarriages
Not only are there miscarriages but *way* less than 50%(I've read as low as 20%) of all fertilized eggs make it to birth.
In fact, most miscarriages happen well before any woman knows or could know she was pregnant in that the zygotes simply don't even implant because they are genetically incompatible with life.

Conclusion: God is pro-abortion?
Ah the logical conundrums inherent to the omni-powerful "god".
Such a god would not only be pro-abortion, but pro-painful death, pro-abuse, pro-everything bad/evil since by allowing such things to take place when *by definition* it is capable of taking action(what *is* the point of being omni-powerful if one doesn't act?), it is culpable in that evil.

Well you won't convince educated people with this... but you can tease Fundies....
Isn't that the point?
:D

Cletus

[Ilsa]

13. Your statistics are also valuable for the claim that abortion causes

breast cancer. There is absolutely no way to verify the statistical groups of women who developed or did not develop breast cancer after a such a brief pregnancy.

[SlackJawedYokel]

21. How completely wrong.

Your statistics are also valuable for the claim that abortion causes breast cancer.
Aside from the fact that a 65,000 woman cohort study done on nurses completley disproved that piece of proganda, how do you figure that one?

There is absolutely no way to verify the statistical groups of women who developed or did not develop breast cancer after a such a brief pregnancy.
Which categorizes such a claim as "statistically insignificant".

IIRC, a preganancy is defined as the implantation, not merely the conception, of a zygote.
So those women who conceive but don't implant aren't pregnant.

Cletus

[SmokingJacket]

10. What kind of intelligent design would include AIDS babies,

the Holocaust, serial killers, Tay-Sachs, abused children kept in cages, tsunamis, etc.?

If there is a God, it's way, way, way beyond my limited understanding.

[indigobusiness]

11. Spinoza's version...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x3580

'...Spinoza contended that "God" and "Nature" were two names for the same reality, namely the single substance that underlies the universe and of which all lesser "entities" are actually modes or modifications. He contended that "Deus sive Natura" ("God or Nature") was a being of infinitely many attributes, of which extension and thought were two. His account of the nature of reality, then, seems to treat the physical and mental worlds as two different, parallel "subworlds" that neither overlap nor interact. This formulation is a historically significant panpsychist solution to the mind-body problem known as neutral monism...'

[donsu]

12. a miscarriage is a miscarriage

the woman's body decided it could not sustain the fetus any longer. the woman's conscious brain had nothing to do with it. nor her will power. nor any god's will power. her body made the decision. that's nature.

[indigobusiness]

15. Yes, but some things judged as "bad" from a limited perspective

are differently perceived from a greater one.

Who would pretend to comprehend the big picture or the full scope of reality?

[Nikepallas]

14. Interesting. Food for thought if nothing else.

[Az]

19. Worse conclusion

The goal is to get to heaven.

Original sin damns those that do not except Jesus as their saviour.

A special consideration is made for those under a certain age.

Dead babies go to heaven.

Raising a child risks them rejecting Jesus.

The logical conclusion of this is horrendous. But it is a valid interpretation of some versions of Fundamentalist Christian concepts.

[RUDUing2]

20. I think you are not quite getting what intelligent design is..

it doesn't mean God micro-managed..

It simply means that there is a supreme deity that set the process into place..

Some believe that God then continued working on creation (but even there different beliefs exist as to what degree)...but others believe that supreme deity put things into motion and let it go...

As for where the supreme deity came from? Same place that those who don't believe in a supreme deity believe the matter came from that set the process into motion..

Just as an atheist simply believes in one less deity then a christian in regards to Gods, etc..a religious believer believes in one more step then a atheist in regards to creation of the universe, etc...